Re: academics and employment

Felix G.

Personally, I find it weird how persistent the fairy tale about open source software being insecure turns out to be, especially when it comes to screen readers. Is the constitution of the United States insecure because anyone can read it? I can download it and publish my own wildly edited copy but that would not put it into effect for anyone because everyone knows where the original can be found. On the other hand, if the original were hidden from citizens but still applied in court then would that not place people at the risk of arbitrary judgment? Similarly, don't we all take enormous leaps of faith every time we use software which only a select few can inspect? I pose that a closed-source environment is the perfect hiding place for malware if it behaves inconspicuously enough. I'm not implying that any particular software contains malware. I'm just making an abstract statement following my own logic because I don't get why so many people arrive at a different conclusion. They can't all have been brainwashed. ;)

Walker, Michael E. (UMSL-Student) <mewx8b@...> schrieb am So., 19. Aug. 2018 um 05:55 Uhr:

Thank you for sharing this! In my humble opinion, you did an excellent job. I am a developer in my early career. I am very familiar with GitHub. Thank you for sharing, for those of us who are not.




From: <> On Behalf Of hurrikennyandopo ...
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 9:37 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment




Go to the following link at

there are both alfa snap shots as well as beta ones They pretty much say what the alfa ones are and the beta ones are what will go into nvda when it is released.


I started writing up how to report a issue to nvaccess and where to go to do it but not finished.


you also need to have a git hub account to report a ticket and the steps etc.


I was wondering if it may of been better just recording audio of where to go and what to expect  when you go to do it not sure.


What was written i will post below. I should really go back and finish it.


The basics of making a ticket for NVACCESS


From time to time you might need to report a bug to be fixed. Before you report the bug ask others on the list if they are getting the same results as you. NVACCESS will need as much information as possible so they can fix the problem.

Where to go to issue a bug to be fixed



If you are a user of the NVDA screen reader whether you use the next snap shot alpha code, the Master snap shot beta code or the stable version of NVDA that is released to the public, if you come across a bug it can be reported at the following web page at


Getting a Git hub account or simply signing in


To report any issues to be fixed you must have a Git Hub account.  .

If you do not have a Git Hub account you will need to go to the sign up link then press the enter key. It will ask you for a user name, email address, password and once done locate the create a account button then press the space bar or enter key for it to be created.

If you already have a account it is just a matter of locating the sign in link and entering your details to log into git hub.



After you have signed into git hub



After you have signed into git hub to report an issue on your page you will have some links and buttons and headings. Do not worry about most of them. The first button is a search button, the second a create new button, the third a view profile and more button, and a sign out button. You will need to look for a new issue button this is found under the sign out button then press the enter key so a ticket can be created.

Before making a new issue you should do a search to see if a ticket has already been made. If this is the case you might be able to reply on another ticket if it matches the problems you are having.

If one can not be found then you would create a new issue.

Searching for an issue on git hub



Before you report a issue/bug report to NVACCESS you will need to do a search to see if anyone else has reported the bug. If one cannot be found then you will need to open a new issue. This is a button.

Press the ENTER key to do this.


A More direct link to make a ticket



If you have already signed up to git hub a more direct link to where you can make a ticket can be found at


You can arrow through the page to see all the sections.


As you go down the page you will hear the following.

This may depend if you arrow down the page or jump down by buttons. If you jump down by buttons you will hear the following. For example add header text button, add bold text button, add italic text button, insert a quote button, insert code button, add a link button, add a bulleted list button, add a numbered list button, add a task list button, insert a reply button, Directly mention a user or team, Reference an issue or pull request, browse button, submit new issue button.

In most cases you will not be Inserting  a reply to a Directly mention a user or team

Reference an issue or pull request unless you are replying to a ticket.



You may find it easier to arrow through rather than use single letter navigation keys to get all of the information.


Single letter navigation keys that can be used in browse mode


You can use B for buttons, K for links, E for edit areas and F for form fields .


They will need to know the following in the header text edit area what the issue is. For example


Under the ### Steps to reproduce:

> A list of the steps you take to demonstrate the problem.

> Example:

> 1. Open Chrome

> 2. Browse to

> 3. Type "Hello"

> 4. Notice an error sound when enter is pressed.


> Please also remember to attach a zip of any files required to reproduce the issue.


### Expected behavior:

> Tell us what should happen.


### Actual behavior:

> Tell us what happens instead.


They will also need to know the NVDA version whether it is a next-14027,c80e529f

Snap shot, or a master snap shot with its version number. Also whether it is a portable or installed version of NVDA.

Other information


They may need other information such as if it was > Example: Running in a VM


Windows version:

> Example: Windows 10 Version 1607 Build 14393.1066




### Other questions:


Does the issue still occur after restarting your PC?


Have you tried any other versions of NVDA?

> Please list them and the result



No files selected.

Attach files by dragging & dropping, selecting them, or pasting from the clipboard. 


Under this section would be where you would post your NVDA log.


Make sure under the general settings in NVDA it is set to Logging level: debug


If you are lucky some one on the list might do the ticket for you but you will need to copy and paste the log into the email as attachments are blocked on the list.



After you have filled in the information that that they require locate the submit new issue button and your ticket will be created.

Please note



For NVACCESS to try and track down any bugs to be fixed you need to have the steps to recreate the problem you are having. Make sure your Logging level: is set to debug is set under the General settings in NVDA. You can also obtain the log which it produces from the Tool.. view log section in NVDA. A log will be produced after you press the enter key on the view log menu. Press the ALT key until a menu drops down then arrow down to you hear NVDA say save log as then press the ENTER key. NVDA will default to the file name then it is a matter of tabbing until you hear a location to save the file to  as the Desk top then shift/tabbing back to the save button then pressing the enter key on the save button.


A much quicker way to get to your NVDA log is by pressing the NVDA key +f1key , CTRL then +letter A to select all

characters, ctrl+c to copy, & then pasting CTRL key + letter V  into a email to send. Or it's in

c:\users\username\AppData\local\temp\nvda.log, which u can just

attach. If you have to restart NVDA, then it's in



You cannot add attachments to a email only paste in the contents of the log. A attachment can be posted to a ticket.



For more information on using Git Hub with a screen reader which goes beyond making a ticket please go to the following link at



Gene nz






On 8/19/2018 10:55 AM, Walker, Michael E. (UMSL-Student) wrote:

Where do I go to learn more about becoming an NVDA beta tester? Thanks.


From: <> On Behalf Of hurrikennyandopo ...
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 5:45 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment




Is that not why they have people do beta testing etc in jaws etc as well to iron out stuff like that. So that would only be people who have jaws.


As you would already know nvaccess do have people test the alfa and beta snapshots to iron out problems before a stable is released. Some might slip through from time to time but will be fixed. Unless it can be re produced by other people the problem it might not get fixed for a while.


Gene nz



On 8/19/2018 10:08 AM, Walker, Michael E. (UMSL-Student) wrote:

Thank you for sharing your insights on this! They were a pleasure to read. I like to read and write a lot. I do not mind reading long messages.


When I generalized about JAWS, I was being informal. I should have asked the group not to take my advice as solid proof. Overall, it sounds like what we really need to do is have a large group of people reproduce the exact steps that cause JAWS to crash, and if it is consistent on that large number of machines, we need to use a debugger and log files to step through the app or site JAWS is crashing on when it happens, document it, and send that report to Freedom Scientific.


The conclusion I drew from what you wrote, overall, is that nothing is perfect. I use the tools that will solve the problem along the way, and suggest improvements as I go.




From: <> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 5:02 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment


This message is rather long.  You may or may not want to read it all.  I hope you find it interesting and useful.


Others may be able to give you an answer or some sort of guide about a good sample size.  I don't have any formal answer.  Intermittent or not, if there is a performance problem on only one machine that is known, it can't be generalized to be a problem that affects a lot of or most machines without more information.  I never say the person isn't having the problem unless I know the cause and it isn't what is being claimed but off and on, when someone generalizes about a performance problem because they have it, I say that it hasn't been demonstrated that it is a general problem.


Recently, a member said they had the same problem on two or three computers.  Ssince the problem occurred in a very popular application and no one had reported it on any list I follow except him, I surmised and said, not as a definite conclusion, but as, what I consider to  be a likely state of affairs, that the person had done the same thing on all those machines, installed or uninstalled the same program or something, whatever it might be that caused the problem on all machines.  I use the nature of the problem, if I've seen it reported by others, and other factors, if they seem relevant, but my main point is that I see people generalize about a product by saying how terrible it is because of a performance problem on their machine and generalization can't be done. 


As far as the announcement of visited links is concerned, I believe that is true, that it can't be turned on or off.  But not to use a screen-reader because of one tiny behavior like that is, in my opinion, absurd. 


If someone is that bothered by visited link announcement, delete browsing history.  That's what visited links are determined by.  The information is stored in browsing history and turning it off will cause all links to be shown as unvisited. 


Second, if you tab through links, or use the letter k to move just by links, you will hear the link spoken and visited spoken afterword.  This is another example of where NVDA should be user customizable.  You should be able to turn off visited as an announcement but further, you should be able to set NVDA to announce visited before or after a link and it should be consistent no matter how you move through links. 


As I said yesterday, it might be a good idea to have a small group convene and consider and get input from users about how NvDA should be made more customizable.  In this respect, you also can't adjust when other controls are heard, do you want to hear button or combo box or check box, for example, before or after you hear the text announced. 


I haven't used System Access enough for a long time to know how it may have changed in more recent years.  Regardless, it simply is more limited than NVDA on the Internet and in general.  It wasn't developed to be a powerful screen-reader, it was intended to be powerful enough to meet less demanding users' needs at a time when there were no or no decent considerably lower price alternatives to JAWS and Window-eyes whereas NVDA is intended to be a much more powerful screen-reader


Take one example, the simulated mouse in System Access is much less capable.  there are times when you must use the simulated mouse to activate a link or control.  But you often can't do it using the System Access mouse, at least that is my recollection.  And talk about annoyances, the simulated mouse in System Access is programmed to make a horrible nerve-grating noise when you click it.  What were they thinking?  In my opinion, that noise is much more disgusting and annoying than hearing the word "visited" when I don't want to. 


On the other hand, years ago, I used one or two web sites that couldn't be used to perform their main function when other screen-readers were used.  I could use a link or control to perform an essential action that wouldn't work with another screen-reader.  Also, on this or that page, System Access would read changes that occurred on the page, not where I was working when I would take an action and that was essential because I wouldn't have known that the page had changed otherwise even if I could have read the new material.  And it would have been ridiculously inefficient to look around the page every time I guessed that it might have changed somewhere.


There is no one ideal screen-reader and I strongly feel that not using a screen-reader because of this or that small or tiny behavior is absurd.  Such behaviors may be annoying but it's a classic example of the cliché about a mountain out of a molehill.



Gene----- Original Message ---------- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 3:57 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment


I believe in using whatever resources are at my fingertips, in any given situation. If I come across an inaccessible app at work, I am not going to have the time to program out a fix for it, plus do the programming I do as part of my job, and meet the deadline.


The reason my friend uses System Access and not NVDA is that he claims with NVDA, you cannot turn off the announcement of visited and unvisited links.


Also, Gene, you were talking about sample size and testing software earlier. What is an accurate sample size for testing an intermittent problem? When JAWS crashes on the machines I used, it is intermittent. I wish they taught us more about troubleshooting intermittent problems in school. It is a skill that I have much room for growth in.




From: <> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 3:51 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment


System Access isn't nearly as powerful as NVDA but it works with web pages differently.  While this generally doesn't matter in terms of accessibility of web pages, at times it does.  So it's good to have as a resource.  But you don't have to install it.  Try System Access to Go.  As a once in awhile resource, it may be useful. 

You used to have to use System Access to Go with Internet Explorer.  I'm not sure now, though I believe that in order to use the talking feature that speaks when you open the web site, you still may. 



----- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 3:34 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment


I had a problem with System Access where it totally locked up my computer when I installed it. I may have to retry. My friend keeps wanting me to try it.

-----Original Message-----
From: <> On Behalf Of Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 3:32 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

Hi, Mike,

One time I had to fill out a survey for Hadley School and NVDA didn't see all the different fields for typing in information so I used system access to go. With system access to go, I was able to complete the survey.


-----Original Message-----
From: [] On Behalf Of Walker, Michael E. (UMSL-Student)
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 1:11 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

Rosemarie, I am also context sensitive when it comes to screen readers. NVDA meets most of my needs. Where it does not, I use JAWS.

-----Original Message-----
From: <> On Behalf Of Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 12:28 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

Hi, Chris,

Yes, it appears from what I read that Gene prefers Jaws over NVDA. We all have the right to our own opinions. We should be able to agree to disagree.
After all, that's what life is all about--differing viewpoints. I used Jaws for years and both Jaws and NVDA are great programs. NVDA serves my needs very well.


-----Original Message-----
From: [] On Behalf Of Chris Shook
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 8:12 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

THis really has nothing to do with the current conversation, but I have to ask.
Since when did human society degrade to such a point that people cannot have different viewpoints on issues.
I happen to agree with Michael that I do like NVDA better than JAWS.
THat is not to say JAWS is a bad product. I just prefer NVDA over JAWS.
Jean, it appears that you prefer JAWS over NVDA. That's cool to. Can't we just agree to disagree?"



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