Re: academics and employment


Well its the nature of it.

Anyone can use it, so potential is always there.

That doesn't mean with comercial software thats not the case, but opensource compaired to the old systems is still new, the older software models existed way before the net and while some industries, music, books and to some extent film have switched over or at least accept the digital age, emulation, and a few other industries are trying to find where to go some industries do not.

Opensource is accepted to an extent but its not complete.

People are a bit more warey of stuff they are not used to especially if anyone can get access to it.

Companies have never liked that idea long before the net came into being.

They still don't like that idea, and in the future they probably still won't.

And to be honest, dropping security for something else, well who knows.

The unknown is our greatest fear so.

Chances are that the small to medium sized businesses, charities, and organisations may try, they don't have much to loose, the big guys, governments and big companies, enterprises, etc may accept a change but have a lot to lose, so they won't immediately change, doesn't mean they are not thinking about it.

Way before nvda was accepted generally, I was talking to a friend who was a distributer of dolphin products.

While nvda was not acknowledged by them it was accepted, even noted as something that could become big certainly they were aware of its existance.

The issue with some of the big guys is that even if they were able to say, no to something or yes to another thing, to move forward immediately probably souldn't be done.

So what we have is the public face of it.

Just because someone says no, it doesn't me no, never, it could be no, not right now, for all you know its something to watch, maybe later, maybe not, it all depends.

There was a talk about security and encription in the news.

Its a given that the police and others may need access to our private information, moniter what we do and spy on all our data.

But to get that sort of access, keys and other things would have to be given, back doors and dumb downs would have to be added into encription for those agencies to access our stuff.

The fact is its a good idea.

But the other end of this stick is that we all know that its not.

Companies often seem to loose mis issue or otherwise security keys and certifficates thats why we have all those expired or dropped things, people do drop their keys.

The fact that the keys are out there could potentially mean someone will find them, get them, sell them, drop them, etc.

Then you have a security problem.

There is not a right or wrong here but what do you accept.

For a company, I'd imagine the safest approach, it may be the crappiest most expensive approach, it may not make sence, they may be even better approaches, but the fact is that those are unknown, or not used well enough.

Who knows.

Point is there is always going to be a small disconnect between the free/opensource and others.

And nothing is actually free, really.

Weather its adds, or something like opencandy, weather its sourceforge model where malware is part of the stuff, subscriptions, donations, etc, someone has to pay.

On 8/19/2018 11:19 PM, Felix G. wrote:
Personally, I find it weird how persistent the fairy tale about open source
software being insecure turns out to be, especially when it comes to screen
readers. Is the constitution of the United States insecure because anyone
can read it? I can download it and publish my own wildly edited copy but
that would not put it into effect for anyone because everyone knows where
the original can be found. On the other hand, if the original were hidden
from citizens but still applied in court then would that not place people
at the risk of arbitrary judgment? Similarly, don't we all take enormous
leaps of faith every time we use software which only a select few can
inspect? I pose that a closed-source environment is the perfect hiding
place for malware if it behaves inconspicuously enough. I'm not implying
that any particular software contains malware. I'm just making an abstract
statement following my own logic because I don't get why so many people
arrive at a different conclusion. They can't all have been brainwashed. ;)

Walker, Michael E. (UMSL-Student) <mewx8b@...> schrieb am So.,
19. Aug. 2018 um 05:55 Uhr:

Thank you for sharing this! In my humble opinion, you did an excellent
job. I am a developer in my early career. I am very familiar with GitHub.
Thank you for sharing, for those of us who are not.


*From:* <> *On Behalf Of *hurrikennyandopo
*Sent:* Saturday, August 18, 2018 9:37 PM

*Subject:* Re: [nvda] academics and employment


Go to the following link at

there are both alfa snap shots as well as beta ones They pretty much say
what the alfa ones are and the beta ones are what will go into nvda when it
is released.

I started writing up how to report a issue to nvaccess and where to go to
do it but not finished.

you also need to have a git hub account to report a ticket and the steps

I was wondering if it may of been better just recording audio of where to
go and what to expect when you go to do it not sure.

What was written i will post below. I should really go back and finish it.

The basics of making a ticket for NVACCESS

From time to time you might need to report a bug to be fixed. Before you
report the bug ask others on the list if they are getting the same results
as you. NVACCESS will need as much information as possible so they can fix
the problem.
Where to go to issue a bug to be fixed

If you are a user of the NVDA screen reader whether you use the next snap
shot alpha code, the Master snap shot beta code or the stable version of
NVDA that is released to the public, if you come across a bug it can be
reported at the following web page at

Getting a Git hub account or simply signing in

To report any issues to be fixed you must have a Git Hub account. .

If you do not have a Git Hub account you will need to go to the sign up
link then press the enter key. It will ask you for a user name, email
address, password and once done locate the create a account button then
press the space bar or enter key for it to be created.

If you already have a account it is just a matter of locating the sign in
link and entering your details to log into git hub.

After you have signed into git hub

After you have signed into git hub to report an issue on your page you
will have some links and buttons and headings. Do not worry about most of
them. The first button is a search button, the second a create new button,
the third a view profile and more button, and a sign out button. You will
need to look for a new issue button this is found under the sign out button
then press the enter key so a ticket can be created.

Before making a new issue you should do a search to see if a ticket has
already been made. If this is the case you might be able to reply on
another ticket if it matches the problems you are having.

If one can not be found then you would create a new issue.
Searching for an issue on git hub

Before you report a issue/bug report to NVACCESS you will need to do a
search to see if anyone else has reported the bug. If one cannot be found
then you will need to open a new issue. This is a button.

Press the ENTER key to do this.

A More direct link to make a ticket

If you have already signed up to git hub a more direct link to where you
can make a ticket can be found at

You can arrow through the page to see all the sections.

As you go down the page you will hear the following.

This may depend if you arrow down the page or jump down by buttons. If you
jump down by buttons you will hear the following. For example add header
text button, add bold text button, add italic text button, insert a quote
button, insert code button, add a link button, add a bulleted list button,
add a numbered list button, add a task list button, insert a reply button,
Directly mention a user or team, Reference an issue or pull request, browse
button, submit new issue button.

In most cases you will not be Inserting a reply to a Directly mention a
user or team

Reference an issue or pull request unless you are replying to a ticket.

You may find it easier to arrow through rather than use single letter
navigation keys to get all of the information.

Single letter navigation keys that can be used in browse mode

You can use B for buttons, K for links, E for edit areas and F for form
fields .

They will need to know the following in the header text edit area what the
issue is. For example

Under the ### Steps to reproduce:

A list of the steps you take to demonstrate the problem.
1. Open Chrome
2. Browse to
3. Type "Hello"
4. Notice an error sound when enter is pressed.

Please also remember to attach a zip of any files required to reproduce
the issue.

### Expected behavior:

Tell us what should happen.

### Actual behavior:

Tell us what happens instead.

They will also need to know the NVDA version whether it is a

Snap shot, or a master snap shot with its version number. Also whether it
is a portable or installed version of NVDA.

Other information

They may need other information such as if it was > Example: Running in a

Windows version:

Example: Windows 10 Version 1607 Build 14393.1066

### Other questions:

Does the issue still occur after restarting your PC?

Have you tried any other versions of NVDA?

Please list them and the result


No files selected.

Attach files by dragging & dropping, selecting them, or pasting from the

Under this section would be where you would post your NVDA log.

Make sure under the general settings in NVDA it is set to Logging level:

If you are lucky some one on the list might do the ticket for you but you
will need to copy and paste the log into the email as attachments are
blocked on the list.

After you have filled in the information that that they require locate the
submit new issue button and your ticket will be created.
Please note

For NVACCESS to try and track down any bugs to be fixed you need to have
the steps to recreate the problem you are having. Make sure your Logging
level: is set to debug is set under the General settings in NVDA. You can
also obtain the log which it produces from the Tool.. view log section in
NVDA. A log will be produced after you press the enter key on the view log
menu. Press the ALT key until a menu drops down then arrow down to you hear
NVDA say save log as then press the ENTER key. NVDA will default to the
file name then it is a matter of tabbing until you hear a location to save
the file to as the Desk top then shift/tabbing back to the save button
then pressing the enter key on the save button.

A much quicker way to get to your NVDA log is by pressing the NVDA key
+f1key , CTRL then +letter A to select all

characters, ctrl+c to copy, & then pasting CTRL key + letter V into a
email to send. Or it's in

c:\users\username\AppData\local\temp\nvda.log, which u can just

attach. If you have to restart NVDA, then it's in


You cannot add attachments to a email only paste in the contents of the
log. A attachment can be posted to a ticket.

For more information on using Git Hub with a screen reader which goes
beyond making a ticket please go to the following link at

Gene nz

On 8/19/2018 10:55 AM, Walker, Michael E. (UMSL-Student) wrote:

Where do I go to learn more about becoming an NVDA beta tester? Thanks.

*From:* <> <> *On
Behalf Of *hurrikennyandopo ...
*Sent:* Saturday, August 18, 2018 5:45 PM
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] academics and employment


Is that not why they have people do beta testing etc in jaws etc as well
to iron out stuff like that. So that would only be people who have jaws.

As you would already know nvaccess do have people test the alfa and beta
snapshots to iron out problems before a stable is released. Some might slip
through from time to time but will be fixed. Unless it can be re produced
by other people the problem it might not get fixed for a while.

Gene nz

On 8/19/2018 10:08 AM, Walker, Michael E. (UMSL-Student) wrote:

Thank you for sharing your insights on this! They were a pleasure to read.
I like to read and write a lot. I do not mind reading long messages.

When I generalized about JAWS, I was being informal. I should have asked
the group not to take my advice as solid proof. Overall, it sounds like
what we really need to do is have a large group of people reproduce the
exact steps that cause JAWS to crash, and if it is consistent on that large
number of machines, we need to use a debugger and log files to step through
the app or site JAWS is crashing on when it happens, document it, and send
that report to Freedom Scientific.

The conclusion I drew from what you wrote, overall, is that nothing is
perfect. I use the tools that will solve the problem along the way, and
suggest improvements as I go.


*From:* <> <> *On
Behalf Of * Gene
*Sent:* Saturday, August 18, 2018 5:02 PM
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] academics and employment

This message is rather long. You may or may not want to read it all. I
hope you find it interesting and useful.

Others may be able to give you an answer or some sort of guide about a
good sample size. I don't have any formal answer. Intermittent or not, if
there is a performance problem on only one machine that is known, it can't
be generalized to be a problem that affects a lot of or most machines
without more information. I never say the person isn't having the problem
unless I know the cause and it isn't what is being claimed but off and on,
when someone generalizes about a performance problem because they have it,
I say that it hasn't been demonstrated that it is a general problem.

Recently, a member said they had the same problem on two or three
computers. Ssince the problem occurred in a very popular application and
no one had reported it on any list I follow except him, I surmised and
said, not as a definite conclusion, but as, what I consider to be a likely
state of affairs, that the person had done the same thing on all those
machines, installed or uninstalled the same program or something, whatever
it might be that caused the problem on all machines. I use the nature of
the problem, if I've seen it reported by others, and other factors, if they
seem relevant, but my main point is that I see people generalize about a
product by saying how terrible it is because of a performance problem on
their machine and generalization can't be done.

As far as the announcement of visited links is concerned, I believe that
is true, that it can't be turned on or off. But not to use a screen-reader
because of one tiny behavior like that is, in my opinion, absurd.

If someone is that bothered by visited link announcement, delete browsing
history. That's what visited links are determined by. The information is
stored in browsing history and turning it off will cause all links to be
shown as unvisited.

Second, if you tab through links, or use the letter k to move just by
links, you will hear the link spoken and visited spoken afterword. This is
another example of where NVDA should be user customizable. You should be
able to turn off visited as an announcement but further, you should be able
to set NVDA to announce visited before or after a link and it should be
consistent no matter how you move through links.

As I said yesterday, it might be a good idea to have a small group convene
and consider and get input from users about how NvDA should be made more
customizable. In this respect, you also can't adjust when other controls
are heard, do you want to hear button or combo box or check box, for
example, before or after you hear the text announced.

I haven't used System Access enough for a long time to know how it may
have changed in more recent years. Regardless, it simply is more limited
than NVDA on the Internet and in general. It wasn't developed to be a
powerful screen-reader, it was intended to be powerful enough to meet less
demanding users' needs at a time when there were no or no decent
considerably lower price alternatives to JAWS and Window-eyes whereas NVDA
is intended to be a much more powerful screen-reader

Take one example, the simulated mouse in System Access is much less
capable. there are times when you must use the simulated mouse to activate
a link or control. But you often can't do it using the System Access
mouse, at least that is my recollection. And talk about annoyances, the
simulated mouse in System Access is programmed to make a horrible
nerve-grating noise when you click it. What were they thinking? In my
opinion, that noise is much more disgusting and annoying than hearing the
word "visited" when I don't want to.

On the other hand, years ago, I used one or two web sites that couldn't be
used to perform their main function when other screen-readers were used. I
could use a link or control to perform an essential action that wouldn't
work with another screen-reader. Also, on this or that page, System Access
would read changes that occurred on the page, not where I was working when
I would take an action and that was essential because I wouldn't have known
that the page had changed otherwise even if I could have read the new
material. And it would have been ridiculously inefficient to look around
the page every time I guessed that it might have changed somewhere.

There is no one ideal screen-reader and I strongly feel that not using a
screen-reader because of this or that small or tiny behavior is absurd.
Such behaviors may be annoying but it's a classic example of the cliché
about a mountain out of a molehill.


Gene----- Original Message ---------- Original Message -----

*From:* Walker, Michael E. (UMSL-Student) <mewx8b@...>

*Sent:* Saturday, August 18, 2018 3:57 PM


*Subject:* Re: [nvda] academics and employment

I believe in using whatever resources are at my fingertips, in any given
situation. If I come across an inaccessible app at work, I am not going to
have the time to program out a fix for it, plus do the programming I do as
part of my job, and meet the deadline.

The reason my friend uses System Access and not NVDA is that he claims
with NVDA, you cannot turn off the announcement of visited and unvisited

Also, Gene, you were talking about sample size and testing software
earlier. What is an accurate sample size for testing an intermittent
problem? When JAWS crashes on the machines I used, it is intermittent. I
wish they taught us more about troubleshooting intermittent problems in
school. It is a skill that I have much room for growth in.


*From:* <> *On Behalf Of *Gene
*Sent:* Saturday, August 18, 2018 3:51 PM
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] academics and employment

System Access isn't nearly as powerful as NVDA but it works with web pages
differently. While this generally doesn't matter in terms of accessibility
of web pages, at times it does. So it's good to have as a resource. But
you don't have to install it. Try System Access to Go. As a once in
awhile resource, it may be useful.

You used to have to use System Access to Go with Internet Explorer. I'm
not sure now, though I believe that in order to use the talking feature
that speaks when you open the web site, you still may.


----- Original Message -----

*From:* Walker, Michael E. (UMSL-Student) <mewx8b@...>

*Sent:* Saturday, August 18, 2018 3:34 PM


*Subject:* Re: [nvda] academics and employment

I had a problem with System Access where it totally locked up my computer
when I installed it. I may have to retry. My friend keeps wanting me to try

-----Original Message-----
From: <> On Behalf Of Rosemarie
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 3:32 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

Hi, Mike,

One time I had to fill out a survey for Hadley School and NVDA didn't see
all the different fields for typing in information so I used system access
to go. With system access to go, I was able to complete the survey.


-----Original Message-----
From: [
<>] On Behalf Of Walker, Michael E. (UMSL-Student)
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 1:11 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

Rosemarie, I am also context sensitive when it comes to screen readers.
NVDA meets most of my needs. Where it does not, I use JAWS.

-----Original Message-----
From: <> On Behalf Of Rosemarie
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 12:28 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

Hi, Chris,

Yes, it appears from what I read that Gene prefers Jaws over NVDA. We all
have the right to our own opinions. We should be able to agree to disagree.
After all, that's what life is all about--differing viewpoints. I used
Jaws for years and both Jaws and NVDA are great programs. NVDA serves my
needs very well.


-----Original Message-----
From: [
<>] On Behalf Of Chris Shook
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 8:12 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

THis really has nothing to do with the current conversation, but I have to
Since when did human society degrade to such a point that people cannot
have different viewpoints on issues.
I happen to agree with Michael that I do like NVDA better than JAWS.
THat is not to say JAWS is a bad product. I just prefer NVDA over JAWS.
Jean, it appears that you prefer JAWS over NVDA. That's cool to. Can't we
just agree to disagree?"

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