Re: Favourite add-ons


Rui Fontes
 

Hello!

1 - I agree that a screen reader should not modify the user interface given by the system where it is running;

2 - That should not interfere with the possibility of screen readers make available a alternative user interface, when it is usefull.

3 - Systray list addon was created by me, with the help of Rui Batista, and later modified by Doug Lee.

4 - Why I decided to create it?
4.1 - Most new NVDA users, at least in 2013 in Portugal and Brazil, were old Jaws users and so they were used to it;
4.2 - Sometimes, when you arrow through Systray, after making Windows+B, and you get to the Network icon, the system shows a popup, Network flyout or something like that, and make unusable the systray that way...;

5 - So, for me, the ideological reason is not valid, since the screen reader is not changing the user interface, but only giving anorther way to do the same...

6 - Regarding the announcement of copy, cut and paste, here I can understand the ideological reason, since the operating system do not announce it in some cases...

6.1 - The system never announces the fact of something being copied to the clipboard;
6.2 - When something is cutted, a visual information is given, since the text or file is gone, and NVDA not always give that information to us;
6.3 - When something is pasted, again, some visual information is given, but not always NVDA announce it...

7 - So, for me, the ideological reason only will be valid when NVDA give us the same information given visually.

8 - Untill that, I will defend the announcement of copy, cut and paste, making all efforts to gave a correct information, but when it will not be possible to be sure the operation was performed, giving us the information not confirmed...

Regards,

Rui Fontes
NVDA portuguese team



Às 11:14 de 22/08/2018, Gene escreveu:

Here is a correction to my last message.
I said that one reason that copy, cut and paste aren't announced is the ideological one I discussed.  That may be incorrect.  I read two discussions of this when users requested the feature that are available on Ghithub.  I didn't see the ideological reason given.  Instead, the mistaken belief was expressed that it can't be known reliably except in certain cases, when copying, pasting, and cutting occur. this is factually incorrect yet it was believed by the developers for most of the years NVDA has been under development.  I don't know what the developers believe now.
The argument was that NVDA would have to be programmed to announce copy, paste, and cut when the commands were given without any knowledge of whether the actions were actually taken.  So the screen-reader would give false information if something prevented the operations from occurring.
As the developer of the add on has demonstrated and as I did in my tests, this belief is incorrect and I strongly believe that since the belief has been disproven, that the feature should either be placed in code or that the add on be distributed and active as part of the installation. I don't care which solution would be adopted.
Gene
----- original Message -----
*From:* Gene <mailto:gsasner@...>
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 22, 2018 4:49 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] Favourite add-ons
This message is rather long.  I hope you find it interesting and provocative of thought.
Rarely, one of the icons doesn't work as expect in the system tray. I don't remember what now, but I couldn't do something in the system tray I should have been able to do but I could in the system tray dialog.
Aside from that, while it wouldn't be a major problem or inconvenience to accustom myself to the system tray interface for regular use, why should I have to?  The dialog has been standard in screen-readers since Windows 98.  Why wasn't it included in NVDA?  As far as I know, this was for ideological reasons, and ideology defeated common sense and a reasonable accomodation to something that had been available for so long that it is now the standard.
the reason there was a separate system tray dialog in the first place is that the system tray wasn't accessible in Windows 98.  And when the system tray dialog was instituted, a lot of people were still using Windows 95, where the system tray was also inaccessible.  So the dialog started as a way to use an inaccessible feature, not as a redundancy.
The ideological principle is that screen-readers should never unless really necessary, present anything that isn't presented to the sighted user in a different format or manner or present any additional information.
While I generally agree with this approach, ideology, strictly adhered to to the point of absurdity, always fails to deal with reality or common sense.
New users to NVDA should not have to wait until they, maybe, learn about add ons to have a feature that has been standard in screen-readers for twenty years.
And it was partly the same ideological rigidity that caused the copy and paste announcements not to be heard in NVDA and I object for the same reasons.  At least make the add ons part of the installation if they aren't added to the code.  Window-eyes for years, had add ons as part of the installation of the program.  This is nothing radical.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Clare Page <mailto:clare.page@...>
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 22, 2018 4:17 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] Favourite add-ons
Hi!
I find the Clipspeak add-on very useful, because without it there is no announcement of when copying and cutting and pasting has been done;
As for the system tray add-on, I hope you don’t mind me asking, but why do you need this add-on, and consider it as essential, when the system tray is perfectly usable without it? I’m not criticizing, just curious as to why you consider it a necessary add-on and think it should be part of NVDA, when NVDA can easily read the system tray on its own?
Bye for now!
From Clare
*From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] *On Behalf Of *Gene
*Sent:* mardi 21 août 2018 16:04
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] Favourite add-ons
I don't use many add ons because the way I use my computer, I don't benefit from most of them. But the two I use regularly and I consider important enough that they shouldn't be add ons is Clip Speak, which announces copy and past when you copy to and past from the clipboard, and the system tray dialog add on.  The system tray dialog has been a standard part of screen-readers since Windows 2008. It should be included in NVDA itself but it isn't.
As for Clipp Speak, I don't know if there is a new version that solves these problems.  the original version caused some problems in Word and it caused a problem in the Youtube downloader I use even though I wasn't directly using the add on. So, if you see strange problems you didn't have before, even if they seem unrelated to anything you would expect the add on to cause, try disabling them and see if the problem disappears.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:*Sociohack AC <mailto:acsociopath@...>
*Sent:*Tuesday, August 21, 2018 8:37 AM
*To:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:*[nvda] Favourite add-ons
What are the most useful add-ons for you people?
--
Regards,
Sociohack

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