Re: Favourite add-ons


Gene
 

Not only JAWS has a system tray dialog.  Window-eyes had one and System Access had one.  I don't know about Dolphin (spelling but I wouldn't be surprised. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Rui Fontes
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2018 7:09 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Favourite add-ons

Hello!

1 - I agree that a screen reader should not modify the user interface
given by the system where it is running;

2 - That should not interfere with the possibility of screen readers
make available a alternative user interface, when it is usefull.

3 - Systray list addon was created by me, with the help of Rui Batista,
and later modified by Doug Lee.

4 - Why I decided to create it?
4.1 - Most new NVDA users, at least in 2013 in Portugal and Brazil, were
old Jaws users and so they were used to it;
4.2 - Sometimes, when you arrow through Systray, after making Windows+B,
and you get to the Network icon, the system shows a popup, Network
flyout or something like that, and make unusable the systray that way...;

5 - So, for me, the ideological reason is not valid, since the screen
reader is not changing the user interface, but only giving anorther way
to do the same...

6 - Regarding the announcement of copy, cut and paste, here I can
understand the ideological reason, since the operating system do not
announce it in some cases...

6.1 - The system never announces the fact of something being copied to
the clipboard;
6.2 - When something is cutted, a visual information is given, since the
text or file is gone, and NVDA not always give that information to us;
6.3 - When something is pasted, again, some visual information is given,
but not always NVDA announce it...

7 - So, for me, the ideological reason only will  be valid when NVDA
give us the same information given visually.

8 - Untill that, I will defend the announcement of copy, cut and paste,
making all efforts to gave a correct information, but when it will not
be possible to be sure the operation was performed, giving us the
information not confirmed...

Regards,

Rui Fontes
NVDA portuguese team



Às 11:14 de 22/08/2018, Gene escreveu:
> Here is a correction to my last message.
> I said that one reason that copy, cut and paste aren't announced is the
> ideological one I discussed.  That may be incorrect.  I read two
> discussions of this when users requested the feature that are available
> on Ghithub.  I didn't see the ideological reason given.  Instead, the
> mistaken belief was expressed that it can't be known reliably except in
> certain cases, when copying, pasting, and cutting occur. this is
> factually incorrect yet it was believed by the developers for most of
> the years NVDA has been under development.  I don't know what the
> developers believe now.
> The argument was that NVDA would have to be programmed to announce copy,
> paste, and cut when the commands were given without any knowledge of
> whether the actions were actually taken.  So the screen-reader would
> give false information if something prevented the operations from
> occurring.
> As the developer of the add on has demonstrated and as I did in my
> tests, this belief is incorrect and I strongly believe that since the
> belief has been disproven, that the feature should either be placed in
> code or that the add on be distributed and active as part of the
> installation. I don't care which solution would be adopted.
> Gene
> ----- original Message -----
> *From:* Gene <mailto:gsasner@...>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 22, 2018 4:49 AM
> *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] Favourite add-ons
>
> This message is rather long.  I hope you find it interesting and
> provocative of thought.
> Rarely, one of the icons doesn't work as expect in the system tray. I
> don't remember what now, but I couldn't do something in the system tray
> I should have been able to do but I could in the system tray dialog.
> Aside from that, while it wouldn't be a major problem or inconvenience
> to accustom myself to the system tray interface for regular use, why
> should I have to?  The dialog has been standard in screen-readers since
> Windows 98.  Why wasn't it included in NVDA?  As far as I know, this was
> for ideological reasons, and ideology defeated common sense and a
> reasonable accomodation to something that had been available for so long
> that it is now the standard.
> the reason there was a separate system tray dialog in the first place is
> that the system tray wasn't accessible in Windows 98.  And when the
> system tray dialog was instituted, a lot of people were still using
> Windows 95, where the system tray was also inaccessible.  So the dialog
> started as a way to use an inaccessible feature, not as a redundancy.
> The ideological principle is that screen-readers should never unless
> really necessary, present anything that isn't presented to the sighted
> user in a different format or manner or present any additional information.
> While I generally agree with this approach, ideology, strictly adhered
> to to the point of absurdity, always fails to deal with reality or
> common sense.
> New users to NVDA should not have to wait until they, maybe, learn about
> add ons to have a feature that has been standard in screen-readers for
> twenty years.
> And it was partly the same ideological rigidity that caused the copy and
> paste announcements not to be heard in NVDA and I object for the same
> reasons.  At least make the add ons part of the installation if they
> aren't added to the code.  Window-eyes for years, had add ons as part of
> the installation of the program.  This is nothing radical.
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Clare Page <mailto:clare.page@...>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 22, 2018 4:17 AM
> *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] Favourite add-ons
>
> Hi!
>
> I find the Clipspeak add-on very useful, because without it there is no
> announcement of when copying and cutting and pasting has been done;
>
> As for the system tray add-on, I hope you don’t mind me asking, but why
> do you need this add-on, and consider it as essential, when the system
> tray is perfectly usable without it? I’m not criticizing, just curious
> as to why you consider it a necessary add-on and think it should be part
> of NVDA, when NVDA can easily read the system tray on its own?
>
> Bye for now!
>
>  From Clare
>
> *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] *On Behalf Of *Gene
> *Sent:* mardi 21 août 2018 16:04
> *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] Favourite add-ons
>
> I don't use many add ons because the way I use my computer, I don't
> benefit from most of them. But the two I use regularly and I consider
> important enough that they shouldn't be add ons is Clip Speak, which
> announces copy and past when you copy to and past from the clipboard,
> and the system tray dialog add on.  The system tray dialog has been a
> standard part of screen-readers since Windows 2008. It should be
> included in NVDA itself but it isn't.
>
> As for Clipp Speak, I don't know if there is a new version that solves
> these problems.  the original version caused some problems in Word and
> it caused a problem in the Youtube downloader I use even though I wasn't
> directly using the add on. So, if you see strange problems you didn't
> have before, even if they seem unrelated to anything you would expect
> the add on to cause, try disabling them and see if the problem disappears.
>
> Gene
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> *From:*Sociohack AC <mailto:acsociopath@...>
>
> *Sent:*Tuesday, August 21, 2018 8:37 AM
>
> *To:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>
> *Subject:*[nvda] Favourite add-ons
>
> What are the most useful add-ons for you people?
> --
> Regards,
> Sociohack
>
>


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