Re: CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

Ron Canazzi

Hi Gene,

I think this gets back to one of you Gene's pet peeves.  Many people using screen access technology simply don't get good instruction.  I have used in my lifetime: Vocal Eyes, JAWS For DOS, JAWS for Windows, Window Eyes and NVDA.  I have also used Orca for Linux.  When you get down to it, there isn't a huge difference between all the DOS based programs (now mostly defunct) and all the Windows based programs and even to a degree the ones for Linux.  I have had no great difficulty adjusting and moving rapidly from one to the other. 

This is because I had a good foundation for just how DOS, Linux and Windows work.  I also had the advantage of a US Air force Drill Instructor--a personal friend of mine--who once he got the concept of how screen access technology worked, was able to give me valuable pointers on just how
Windows was laid out and just what was happening on the screen when I was navigating with the screen readers.  This process took me about 3 weeks and I have never looked back.

On 9/24/2018 2:50 PM, Gene wrote:
I'm nnot talking about exact methods and I don't know how proprietary they are or how generally known such methods are.  I'm talking about ways of doing things such as MSAA which is now largely replaced as I understand it by UIA and techniques that are in public view.  Quick navigation keys when using browse mode, b for button, h for heading etc. aren't proprietary and anyone can use a commercial screen-reader that uses them and see them described in documentation.  Concepts like the JAWS cursor or the Window-eyes mouse pointer are in plain view.  Commands for seeing formatting information is another example. 
My point is that a lot of work and development went into for profit screen-readers which is in plain view and NVDA wouldn't be anywhere near as advanced as it is if these decades of work hadn't been done.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 1:16 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

Hi Gene,
How can we be sure that NVDA is built on the same foundations as
commercial screen readers? To me, that doesn't make logical sense. I'm
not saying outright that it isn't the case - maybe I'm misinterpreting
or misunderstanding something here.
For one thing, commercial screen readers, by the very nature and
definition of the term, are closed-source, and thus any methods of
access would be kept a closely guarded secret. Let's face it - they
would know that competitors would be dangerous to the future of their
own operation, especially given the price tag. This is true for most
large companies, why should screen reading manufacturers be any different?
Secondly, NVDA uses open-source components to provide access to braille
and in-built speech (I'm referring of course to ESpeak), and
closed-source but publicly documented API's to provide accessibility
communication between system, applications and user. Commercial screen
readers need separate drivers that chain onto the video drivers and
access screen content that way. To me, that suggests that the way NVDA
works is totally different than its commercial predecessors.
Which is more reliable is, of course, subject to opinion. As far as I am
aware, each method will have its own advantages and disadvantages, but
that's another discussion entirely.

On 24/09/2018 06:56 PM, Gene wrote:
> The problem isn't just with this one service. The underlying assumption
> of the argument is that any service a blind person needs to should be
> provided free because to charge anything exploits us by making us pay
> for something sighted people don't pay for.  Can you imagine where blind
> people would be if this had been followed throughout history?
> In an ideal world, this might be the case. But as a practical matter, it
> isn't and calling people exploitative who identify a need and fill it
> for a cost is logically invalid and not reasonable.
> NVDA, which is the list we are discussing this on, wouldn't be anywhere
> near as good a screen-reader if for profit screen-readers, in
> competition with each other hadn't accumulated decades of innovation and
> experience in how to access the computer efficiently.  NVDA built on all
> this experience.  That is not to take anything away from NVDA nor the
> very important need it fills.  but if people don't acknowledge what it
> is built on, that doesn't give credit to the important, vital actually,
> role for profit screen-readers played in the development of NVDA.
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Cristóbal <mailto:cristobalmuli@...>
> *Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2018 11:14 AM
> *To:* <>
> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
> This is silly. So, who’s the arbiter of right and wrong?
> He has a skill. He put it to use. Everyone’s got to try their own
> hustle. Nothing’s stopping anyone else with similar  programming
> abilities to try to crack the same nut out of the kindness of their own
> heart. I mean, please, go right ahead.
> Don’t hate on the man for identifying a need and trying to create a
> solution to address it. He abandoned it for whatever reason. Be it lack
> of interest, maybe he priced it too high, maybe he just doesn’t follow
> through on stuff. Whatever.
> But this notion of right and wrong is again, silly. I do agree that it
> sucks that we as blind folks have to resort to all these workarounds for
> access to the same stuff as sighted people and of course it’s a bigger
> issue of demanding fundamental accessibility for such an essential
> process of web browsing, but until somethings done, this is how it goes.
> Cristóbal
> *From:* <> *On Behalf Of *Darren
> Harris via Groups.Io
> *Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2018 8:17 AM
> *To:*
> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
> No, nobody was forcing anybody to pay for it I’ll grant you that. But
> the fact that somebody was willing to make money out of that, I’m sorry
> but that is wrong! So if it has gone, then that makes me quite happy!
> On 24 Sep 2018, at 16:14, Cristóbal <cristobalmuli@...
> <mailto:cristobalmuli@...>> wrote:
>     Nobody was forcing you to pay for it.
>     Let’s not fire up the torches of hyperboly yet either.
>     Cristóbal
>     *From:* <>
>     < <>> *On Behalf Of
>     *Darren Harris via Groups.Io
>     *Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2018 8:11 AM
>     *To:* <>
>     *Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
>     I’m glad it’s gone. Why should anybody have to pay to solve
>     captures? It was nothing more than exploitation!
>     On 24 Sep 2018, at 16:07, Ervin, Glenn <glenn.ervin@...
>     <mailto:glenn.ervin@...>> wrote:
>         The only trouble with this solution is that I use a “headless”
>         computer.
>         I could hook it up to a TV, but I would have to unplug some
>         stuff and find an extra HDMI cable.
>         But I have used that app on other computers that I had a monitor
>         connected to, when I was setting up the BIOS.
>         So for most folks, that is a good solution.
>         Glenn
>         It is a NUC PPYH, a small portable desktop, and I don’t normally
>         have a monitor connected to it.
>         *From:* <>
>         < <>> *On Behalf Of
>         *Desert Moon
>         *Sent:* Sunday, September 23, 2018 6:32 PM
>         *To:* <>
>         *Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
>         Hello All,
>         When I am faced with a CAPCHA challenge, I will make use of the
>         Be My Eyes iPhone app. Just ask the volunteer to tall me what's
>         on the screen. Safer than using an unknown add-on.
>         --
>         Desert

They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

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