Hi Group,

Well as long as this thread has drifted so far off the original topic of my submit button, I thought I would keep pushing it further <laugh>.

Here is what I do when a series of shortcut (keys or techniques) no longer work on a specific page. Immediately, I deduce (a mental process that is in the current United States less and less in fashion) that something major has changed on the page.  What I do then is to closely examine, line by line and if necessary word by word, the page from top to bottom.  Most times (at least 75% or so) I see the problem right away: a button has replaced a link; a group of radio buttons has replaced a group of check boxes; a menu button exists which when pressed, reveals a series of links, button, check boxes and so on.  If that doesn't work, then I look closely at pertinent text.  I check out each word and sometimes references by the screen reader to unlabeled links or graphics and I start clicking on them: either by the space bar, going in and out of forms/browse mode, or routing mouse to application cursor and single or double clicking the item.  In about 90% of the remaining undetectable changes, this works. For the remaining 5 or so percent, I ask sources like this list to check things out and see if anyone else is having issues and sometimes, I get pertinent advice from such other sources that help me solve about 75% of the remaining 5% or so that seem at first problematic.  At least for me, that leaves about 1 or 2 percent of the pages I visit s largely inaccessible.  Sometimes, I eventually figure out a work around and sometimes I'm out of luck.  Simple human reason solves many of what at first seem unsolvable issues or problems.

Gene,

Things change that proficient screenreader users cannot adapt easily to as well.

For example, I did not know about menus containing hidden options.

So I went to a page, and I am looking for a download button.

I jump through looking for a download button with the letter B, and that does not work.

I list links, and press D and find no download button, nor arrowing through them finds anything relating to a download option.

So I use the find command looking for the word down and find nothing.

Without knowing that there is a new thing where content is different and there is something new, I can see where someone who is a casual user will find a page inaccessible.

 

You look at computer usage like all screenreader users should be at the level of the folks on this list, and the truth is, most are not, and will never be that proficient, so for accessibility to be a reality, things need to improve, and become more intuitive.

Having a button that says menu closed is easily overlooked.

Perhaps the sighted have some graphics there indicating what is hidden in that closed menu, but there is no description to us, we have to know to open the closed menus and see if that gives us what we want.

Glenn

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 1:20 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Let's examine an example of worthless training as opposed to good training.  Years ago,

Send Space had a download link.  If people were tought something such as to use the links list and look for the link that said download, then what would happen when Send Space changed it from a link to a button?  If they were just taught by rote, they would likely be unable to use the page.  If they had been taught to look at and understand web pages and how to find things, they would see that the link was now a button and then, after they saw this, be able to go on efficiently using the page as before.  How many times have I seen blind people claim that a site is no longer acccessible after it has been changed?  It wasn't inaccessible after the change.  Changes had been made in the site and rote memorization of the old layout didn't work any longer. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Jackie

Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 11:26 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

W/all due respect, training is not a waste of time, at least if it's
the sort of training that teaches basic principles & not simply rote
memorization, ie, shake hands, roll over, speak, etc. That's just
performing commands on cue, & that sort of training is indeed
worthless. When I did adaptive tech--& admittedly, it was a long time
ago--I actually used to encourage my students to get into trouble, ie,
they would check w/me about a keystroke to press, &, knowing it was
the wrong 1, I'd tell them to go ahead. My rationale was that they
were going to get themselves into situations where they were
confronted w/stuff I hadn't taught them, & they needed to understand
the basic principles of how to cope w/the unexpected. That may at 1st
blush sound really cruel, but those that made it thru expressed that
was the 1 thing they really appreciated about my approach, ie, that I
believed they could recover on their own by using the tools they'd
been taught.

Accessibility, IMO, has overall greatly improved. The use of mobile
devices, where screen real estate is important, thereby eliminating a
lot of the big gawdy banners & sliders etc, has improved things, as
has legislation in the developed world mandating accessibility. I
recall when Windows was completely inaccessible to us--now we can
basically install it independently. So I'd also disagree w/the
gloom-&-doom naysayers who think we'll someday never be able to use a
computer. The truth is, we have more options now than we've ever had.
I recall when Apple was totally inaccessible, for example, & when we
couldn't use a cell phone to do anything but basic calling.
Change is a constant, & screenreading technology will have to evolve
w/it. On the other hand, there are now accessibility guidelines in
place for many technologies, which there weren't in the last century.
Overall, I think we're in better shape than we've ever been.
Truthfully, I wish I'd been born into this century, as I think, at
least from a technology perspective, things will overall only improve,
as a general rule.

On 9/27/18, Rosemarie Chavarria <knitqueen2007@...> wrote:
> Glen,
>
>
>
> I think you might be right. A friend of mine was telling me one time that it
> may get to the point where we'll be totally locked out from using the
> computer. I agree with you about the training. If things are constantly
> changing, then what good is it to have all that training? It would be just a
> waste of time.
>
>
>
> Rosemarie
>
>
>
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ervin,
> Glenn
> Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 7:22 AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My
> Banking Site
>
>
>
> Gene,
>
> All it takes is one element that is a show stopper for someone, and that can
> cause them to stop using a screenreader and give up using a computer.
>
> I have been a computer user and teacher since the days of DOS, and I have
> spent hours stuck on a page because of inaccessible pages that have no
> work-around, unless you come to a list like this to find out some obscure
> technique that happens to work.
>
> It sure seems like more and more of this is happening, and it is difficult
> for screenreaders to keep up.
>
> I don’t agree with your assertion that it is just a matter of training.
>
> I think with this most recent trend, we will see less and less Blind people
> being able to access pages.
>
> I don’t know the solution, but I see a bad trend here.
>
> I hope I’m wrong about the trend.
>
> Glenn
>
>
>
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>  <nvda@nvda.groups.io
> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > On Behalf Of Gene
> Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 10:04 AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My
> Banking Site
>
>
>
> That's largely because of poor training, however.  Not for everything, but
> for a lot of what people do, you can learn perhaps ten or fifteen commands
> that are different for a different screen-reader and do a lot of what you
> could do before.  Most of what people do uses Windows or program commands.
> a different screen-reader may use different screen review commands and a
> different command for read title bar and certain other commands, but a lot
> of what people do would be the same because a lot of what is done doesn't
> use screen-reader commands.
>
>
>
> Gene
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Ervin, Glenn <mailto:glenn.ervin@...>
>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 9:43 AM
>
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>
> Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My
> Banking Site
>
>
>
> Although this concept of using multiple screenreaders is okay for those of
> us who can do that, but if it comes to that as generally accepted practice,
> then the majority of users are left behind.
>
> Glenn
>
>
>
>
>
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>  <nvda@nvda.groups.io
> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
> Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:48 AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Subject: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My
> Banking Site
>
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy Cuppens wrote:
>
> Simply told, the procedure is unaccessible so cal your bank and tel them.
>
> Not that I don't think this is a good idea, because it is, but you also have
> to understand that accessibility will always be, to some extent, a game of
> catch up.
>
> Web coding keeps changing at blinding speed, and that's not going to stop.
> Sometimes it's a matter of the screen readers catching up to it, and
> particularly when the reason for doing a certain thing a certain way
> revolves around increased security.
>
> It's really generally helpful to check to see if what doesn't work under one
> screen reader might work under another if you happen to have a system with
> two or more screen readers available.  That can help to tease out where the
> issue might lie.
>
> --
>
> Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134
>
>     The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals,
> which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot
> co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is
> untrue. . .
>
>            ~ Bertrand Russell
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


--
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Jackie McBride
Helping Cybercrime Victims 1 Person at a Time
https://brighter-vision.com

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