training for blind people


Davy Cuppens
 

HI Gene
 
I do totally agree with you. But I also agree a bit with the others, this specific problem is a problem of inaccessibility of that bank site and lie I had said before, the only thing the person can do is call on their bank and tell them to make it accessible again.
 
But what you say in general is right.
For the enhanced use of computers, devices like smartphones, iphones, screenreaders, many are called but only a few are chosen thanks to a lack of training.
Sometimes I have the feeling that many blind people sit back and relax and when they do have an issue or problem ask a forum. Moreover, if they would have tried first to perform a google search, in 80% of the cases, they could have found a solution for themselves. Then having found that solution gives more satisfaction and a greater chance to remember such things afterwards.
This list is there to help eachother and it is obvious that advanced, engaged, selfmade people will ask less questions than people that have more difficulties or things are not gona be so straight forward. There is nothing wrong with that but I find it a bit a pain here that so many people disagree with you Gene. An idiom here in Belgium literally translated is: where there is a will there will be a way. But some people are not willing enough will.
What also bothers me is that in most rehab institutions I know, instructors do not have enough knowledge or qualification to train blind people according to their needs. Therefore, I almost always do my own training in selfstudy, at first, read the manual, test it out, read lists like this, podcasting and I think if you feel after that it is stull not working, please people say YES WE CAN and go to training, Gene is right in his statement.
Regards
Davy
 

From: Gene
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2018 1:57 AM
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site
 
You are generalizing from a few specifics, not proper logic.  I didn't say all sites are accessible.  Neither did I say that sites don't change.  My point is that proper training would allow blind people to figure out, in most cases, how to use sites when they do change or figure out new ones.  Of course, some sites are or become inaccessible.  I'm not talking about those. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 6:37 PM
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site
 

Hi, Gene,

 

With all due respect, sites do constantly change unless they're like the blind mice megamall site. I

i'm sorry but I totally agree with Glen's message. All the training in the world won't help if sites keep changing. I was once able to shop for groceries online with the Vons site but when I talked to someone there, they said it's no longer accesible with screen readers. Why do you think I have to have my sighted sister help me place an order on Instacart? Simple--it's not really accessible. I've talked to friends of mine and they said you almost have to have an iphone to use their accessible app. I believe in looking at the layout of a page so you get familiar with how to use it. I tried shopping by myself on instacart but it didn't work--not even with work-arounds.

 

Rosemarie

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 4:26 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

The level of training would be available if proper training were done by those who do it in the first place.  What used to be Freedom Scientific and now has a name that evokes a bird offers a lot of training.  Nothing I am describing is taught in all that training, as far as I know. 

 

I'm a voice in the wilderness.  If blind people would join together and demand proper training, we might get somewhere.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ervin, Glenn

Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 1:35 PM

Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Gene,

The level of training you are referring to is either unaffordable on their limited income, or beyond their interest level.

Remember, even the average requirements of using a screenreader is more than most sighted folks would learn to use the computer.

If they cannot touch what they want or click on it with a mouse, it is beyond what the majority of sighted folks would be willing to learn, and why should the Blind be any different?

We are forced to learn stuff that many would not even consider if they did not have to.

Believe me, I’m in the real world seeing newly Blinded folks all the time, and only the most highly motivated of them are interested in learning to use a screenreader.

I find it disappointing, but that is the truth.

Glenn

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 1:21 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Because of poor training.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ervin, Glenn

Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 12:56 PM

Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Hi Gene,

I gathered that, but it is my experience that the majority of Blind users, most of whom aren’t even on a listserve, struggle to use even one screenreader, much less other operating systems.

Glenn

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 12:52 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

I didn't say that this isn't occurring on the Internet.  I haven't used enough sites that are out of my usual use to say.  I am making a general statement about blind people using only one screen-reader, as so many do.  This is the result of poore training.  I wasn't refering specifically to or only to the Internet.  I was discussing how so many blind people don't realize the advantages to using more than one screen-reader on the Internet or elsewhere.  If blind people knew what I said in my last message in the thread, they might be more willing to try other screen-readers so that when one screen-reader doesn't do something well, they might be able to do the thing better or well using another screen-reader.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ervin, Glenn

Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 9:22 AM

Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Gene,

All it takes is one element that is a show stopper for someone, and that can cause them to stop using a screenreader and give up using a computer.

I have been a computer user and teacher since the days of DOS, and I have spent hours stuck on a page because of inaccessible pages that have no work-around, unless you come to a list like this to find out some obscure technique that happens to work.

It sure seems like more and more of this is happening, and it is difficult for screenreaders to keep up.

I don’t agree with your assertion that it is just a matter of training.

I think with this most recent trend, we will see less and less Blind people being able to access pages.

I don’t know the solution, but I see a bad trend here.

I hope I’m wrong about the trend.

Glenn

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 10:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

That's largely because of poor training, however.  Not for everything, but for a lot of what people do, you can learn perhaps ten or fifteen commands that are different for a different screen-reader and do a lot of what you could do before.  Most of what people do uses Windows or program commands.  a different screen-reader may use different screen review commands and a different command for read title bar and certain other commands, but a lot of what people do would be the same because a lot of what is done doesn't use screen-reader commands.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ervin, Glenn

Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 9:43 AM

Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Although this concept of using multiple screenreaders is okay for those of us who can do that, but if it comes to that as generally accepted practice, then the majority of users are left behind.

Glenn

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:48 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy Cuppens wrote:

Simply told, the procedure is unaccessible so cal your bank and tel them.

Not that I don't think this is a good idea, because it is, but you also have to understand that accessibility will always be, to some extent, a game of catch up.

Web coding keeps changing at blinding speed, and that's not going to stop.  Sometimes it's a matter of the screen readers catching up to it, and particularly when the reason for doing a certain thing a certain way revolves around increased security.

It's really generally helpful to check to see if what doesn't work under one screen reader might work under another if you happen to have a system with two or more screen readers available.  That can help to tease out where the issue might lie.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

           ~ Bertrand Russell

 

 

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