Hi Rosemarie

I did my learning process in just the same way as you did, I did not attend a brail class but had my training in screenreaders for my profession as a receptionist and after that just like you, being patient and learning it myself.

For 4,5 years as a totally inexperienced beginner, I bought an iphone 5s for 900 euro because so many people told me it's the most accessible device in the world. After 2 days I had almost thrown my device in the toilet but the third day I shut myself in my room for 5 hours, started to read the manual, listened to beginners voiceover podcasts and I dare to say now after 4 years that I am one of the most experienced voiceover users and I reached that level after 3 4 months. But I had to spend hours and hours and hours learning, testing etc ...
Maybe this is difficult for some people and therefore I find gene is right. If you feel it does not work, go to training please! There is nothing wrong with that.
Regards
davy

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
From: Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2018 1:55 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

Hi, Sean,

When I got my very first computer, it had a demo version of Window-eyes. It had windows 98 as its operating system. I took a computer class at the Braille Institute ad they taught Jaws. I later saved up some money and bought tutorials. I pretty much did everything on my own. As far as screen readers, I learned Jaws, window-eyes and system access. Now I just use nvda AND IT SUITS MY NEEDS VERY WELL.

rOSEMARIE



-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Shaun Everiss
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 2:55 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

To be honest on training, I learned to use ms office xp, windows 95 and jaws 6.

None of that matters anymore.

I don't use jaws, I don't use such an outdated crappy office and windows combo anymore.

I have training for my keynote.

All of it is totally crap, I did most of my stuff myself.

I admit it was good at that time but its not current.

Training is fine especially if you get it but you would have to train yearly to stay updated.



On 9/28/2018 6:35 AM, Ervin, Glenn wrote:

Gene,
The level of training you are referring to is either unaffordable on their limited income, or beyond their interest level.
Remember, even the average requirements of using a screenreader is more than most sighted folks would learn to use the computer.
If they cannot touch what they want or click on it with a mouse, it is beyond what the majority of sighted folks would be willing to learn, and why should the Blind be any different?
We are forced to learn stuff that many would not even consider if they did not have to.
Believe me, I’m in the real world seeing newly Blinded folks all the time, and only the most highly motivated of them are interested in learning to use a screenreader.
I find it disappointing, but that is the truth.
Glenn

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 1:21 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

Because of poor training.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Ervin, Glenn<mailto:glenn.ervin@...>
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 12:56 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

Hi Gene,
I gathered that, but it is my experience that the majority of Blind users, most of whom aren’t even on a listserve, struggle to use even one screenreader, much less other operating systems.
Glenn

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 12:52 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

I didn't say that this isn't occurring on the Internet. I haven't used enough sites that are out of my usual use to say. I am making a general statement about blind people using only one screen-reader, as so many do. This is the result of poore training. I wasn't refering specifically to or only to the Internet. I was discussing how so many blind people don't realize the advantages to using more than one screen-reader on the Internet or elsewhere. If blind people knew what I said in my last message in the thread, they might be more willing to try other screen-readers so that when one screen-reader doesn't do something well, they might be able to do the thing better or well using another screen-reader.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Ervin, Glenn<mailto:glenn.ervin@...>
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 9:22 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

Gene,
All it takes is one element that is a show stopper for someone, and that can cause them to stop using a screenreader and give up using a computer.
I have been a computer user and teacher since the days of DOS, and I have spent hours stuck on a page because of inaccessible pages that have no work-around, unless you come to a list like this to find out some obscure technique that happens to work.
It sure seems like more and more of this is happening, and it is difficult for screenreaders to keep up.
I don’t agree with your assertion that it is just a matter of training.
I think with this most recent trend, we will see less and less Blind people being able to access pages.
I don’t know the solution, but I see a bad trend here.
I hope I’m wrong about the trend.
Glenn

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 10:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

That's largely because of poor training, however. Not for everything, but for a lot of what people do, you can learn perhaps ten or fifteen commands that are different for a different screen-reader and do a lot of what you could do before. Most of what people do uses Windows or program commands. a different screen-reader may use different screen review commands and a different command for read title bar and certain other commands, but a lot of what people do would be the same because a lot of what is done doesn't use screen-reader commands.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Ervin, Glenn<mailto:glenn.ervin@...>
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 9:43 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

Although this concept of using multiple screenreaders is okay for those of us who can do that, but if it comes to that as generally accepted practice, then the majority of users are left behind.
Glenn


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:48 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy Cuppens wrote:
Simply told, the procedure is unaccessible so cal your bank and tel them.
Not that I don't think this is a good idea, because it is, but you also have to understand that accessibility will always be, to some extent, a game of catch up.

Web coding keeps changing at blinding speed, and that's not going to stop. Sometimes it's a matter of the screen readers catching up to it, and particularly when the reason for doing a certain thing a certain way revolves around increased security.

It's really generally helpful to check to see if what doesn't work under one screen reader might work under another if you happen to have a system with two or more screen readers available. That can help to tease out where the issue might lie.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134

The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another. Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

~ Bertrand Russell