Re: Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet

Dale Leavens

You just can’t leave it alone can you?

How long must this thread run after it is no longer expanding any understanding or value?

Is it really necessary to make your point over absolutely every post?

I realize all about the delete function and make liberal use of it. 


Dale Leavens

On Dec 3, 2018, at 6:26 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

I didn't say it would be generally harmful nor that anyone will stop using other navigation techniques.  I'm only talking about inexperienced users and I'm saying that claiming that this app will do ninety percent of what you want to do on the Internet may dissuade them from learning other things they should know.
I strongly disagree that you have to hype and oversell something in order to get people to use it.  I would use it except that I'm waiting for a read to end feature and I know exactly what it does because of your demonstration.  Experienced users know what it does and a lot of them will use it as well, unless they are waiting for something specific like a read to end feature.
When add-ons for Firefox and Chrome came out that are reading add-ons, many blind people were interested.
Many people oversell NVDA as well.  It isn't necessary.  Just describing the product or demonstrating it is more than convincing enough.  The same for this app.  If people weren't interested in the past, the cause was something else.  If your audio demonstration called it a reading app and you had demonstrated its use, that would have been just as effective.  And you could make statements such as, a lot of what people do on the Internet is read articles.  This app will save a lot of time and make this much easier and more convenient.  Then, you can demonstrate it, just as you did.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2018 5:04 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet

I think we have two main points of disagreement: the first being the
description of TextNav, and the second being whether TextNav will be
harmful in the long run since people will stop learning browse mode
1. Yes, you can call TextNav a reading add-on. I would even agree with
you, it is a reading add-on indeed. The other day Joseph Lee announced
TextNav as better paragraph navigation commands. He is right too.
However nobody would download and try using an add-on, that provides
better paragraph navigation. Nobody would be excited about a reading
add-on. That's why I call it the new way of browsing Internet. I'm
running a marketing campaign, I hope not that dirty. But I'm just
trying to attract some attention. Hopefully to everyone's benefit.
Nobody would have bought the first car in the world if this car was
advertised as a better horse carriage, even though that would've been
an accurate description for 19-th century person. Nobody would have
bought the first computer if it was called a better calculator. I hope
you see my point.
2.I don't have any new arguments here either. I think time will show
whether TextNav will end up being useful or detrimental for NVDA
community. I hope nobody would propose to delete TextNav in fear that
people would forget how to use browse mode commands. And I feel that
if not me, someone else would've eventually come up with this idea


On 12/3/18, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
> I'll say at this point that I probably won't write more in the thread.  I've
> said what I have to say and I'vew explained it more clearly as the thread
> continued and as I saw more clearly what the main issue is and how to
> present it.  Many people have evidently misunderstood what I said, at least
> before reading my last explanatory message.  But pretty much anything more I
> would say would be repetition.
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Gene via Groups.Io
> Sent: Monday, December 03, 2018 4:34 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse
> Internet
> I'm sorry, but I don't know what lists you are referring to.  That is not
> the case here nor on the lists I'm a member of.  And I didn't say anything
> about doing things the hardest way possible as being preferred.  See the
> last message I sent which explains in the best way, what my position is.
> Comparing blind and sighted people in the way you are doing is invalid.  for
> one thing, the Internet is designed to be visually intuitive for sighted
> people.  They don't have to learn nearly as much to use it effectively.  and
> in your work place, if the training was inadequate, that is the fault of
> those who prepared and administered the training.  But what does that have
> to do with what we are talking about?
> Gene
> ----- Original message -----
> From: Andy
> Sent: Monday, December 03, 2018 4:21 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse
> Internet
> If this list were composed of sighted persons we wouldn't even be having
> this discussion.  Whenever topics like this come up on a blind list, there
> is always a chorus that keeps singing the virtues of doing things the
> hardest way possible.  I recall in the mid 90s when individual employees at
> our facility were issues PCs and were expected to use them.  many of the
> staff were older and had no experience using a PC.  There were classes, but
> they were designed to be short in duration, and they made many assumptions
> about the level of experience and ability of the persons taking the class.
> It was quite common for people to ask for assistance from coworkers who were
> more experienced.  That assistance was always gladly given, in fact, I gave
> much assistance myself.
> I do not recall anyone telling someone to read a manual, etc.  But on these
> lists people are often called out when they ask for assistance, or a
> developer who wants to address a need is told that their product is either
> unnecessary or even harmful. The range of experience and ability is just as
> wide among the blind as among the sighted.  Why can't we demonstrate the
> same level of understanding and compassion as we did at our facility?  If an
> add on or software program can enable someone to benefit from computing who
> might otherwise be deprived of this benefit, why not support it?  There is
> way too much computer equipment sitting in closets gathering dust because
> people did not receive the support they needed to learn to use it, and were
> often put down when they came on lists, chats, etc. and asked for help. I
> commend Tony for his efforts and wish him success.
> Andy
> "He who lives on hope will die of starvation".
> Benjamin Franklin
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Brian Vogel
>   To:
>   Sent: Monday, December 03, 2018 1:25 PM
>   Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse
> Internet
>   Tony,
>            First, thanks much for the time and effort you put in to creating
> this add-on.
>            Although I can agree that a number of points brought up since the
> initial announcement have some validity, many go well beyond the scope of
> your add-on alone and could be applied to any number of NVDA add-ons and, in
> fact, are really separate philosophical and practical issues of their own.
>            You're a better man than I, as I know I would be feeling, "No
> good deed goes unpunished," were I you, and not being nearly so gracious
> about it.
>   --
>   Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763
>   A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need
> for illusion is deep.
>             ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

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