Re: Browse mode and focus


Felix G.
 

Hello Tony,
ah now I get it. I tried the arrow keys, and saw the usual
sluggishness and elements expanding in response to focus events. I'll
try focus hack now to see what happens. If I get this correctly, it
should have a lot of side effects but block NVDA from ever setting
focus to anything.
Best,
Felix

Am Mi., 26. Dez. 2018 um 18:01 Uhr schrieb Tony Malykh <anton.malykh@...>:


Hi Felix,
Yeah, that's why I like Python, you can do that sort of hacking on the fly.
Why do you think focus events are still being sent? What are the
symptoms? And what is your browser?
And also did you try focus hack mode - press NVDA+8 twice. Basically
in "Browse mode moves system focus off" only some of the setFocus
events are intercepted, such as when pressing browse mode keystrokes,
like H, G and K. Apparently if you press up or down arrow, that
triggers a different code path - and then focus hack deals with it by
intercepting more setFocus events, but it leaves the rest of NVDA
crippled. Could you confirm that focus hack works for you?

Best
Tony


On 12/25/18, Felix G. <constantlyvariable@...> wrote:
Wow that's elegant. So you're monkey-patching the function that deals
with moving in browse mode so that instead of operating on the object
itself it operates on a wrapper that replaces getFocus with a no-op.
I've never seen code that so selectively patches one particular path
of calls.
Took me the better part of half an hour to understand what it does. A
pity it seems not to work, I'm still working out why.
Best,
Felix

Am Di., 25. Dez. 2018 um 21:25 Uhr schrieb Felix G. via Groups.Io
<constantlyvariable@...>:

Hello Tony,
I'm afraid I'm still seeing focus events even when they're switched
off. Time for me to look at that code, as I'd love to run that test in
a representative way.
Thanks for the inspiration,
Felix

Am Di., 25. Dez. 2018 um 20:47 Uhr schrieb Tony Malykh
<anton.malykh@...>:

I just wrote a tiny add-on that prevents NVDA from sending focus
events to the browser.
Binary:
https://github.com/mltony/nvda-super-browser/releases/download/v0.1dev/superbrowser-0.1dev.nvda-addon
Source and description:
https://github.com/mltony/nvda-super-browser/
Press NVDA+8 to turn focus sending to browsers on and off.
It's not a production-ready add-on, as it introduces a lot of side
effects when not sending focus events. However, it'll give you an idea
how much faster and more responsive your browsing experience might
become without these focus events being sent back and forth.


On 12/21/18, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
Are you sure you have automatic switching off in NVDA? I never have
browse
mode turn off when I have the automatic switching feature off. I
have
repeatedly said that automatic switching should not be on by default.
It is
not a setting that people should have on unless they know about it
and
understand exactly how it works.

And to confuse unknowledgeable and learning users more, it
automatically
switches modes when you move in some ways and it doesn't switch when
you
move in other ways. People learning how to use the internet should
not have
this feature confusing them and making it harder to learn.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Tony Malykh
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 1:11 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus


I must also add that edit boxes sporadically entering forms mode is a
very big problem for me. At work I have to use a website that
contains
an edit box that somehow always enters forms mode and once this
happens, the web site opens a popup dialog somewhere in the end of
the
page and brings the focus there. So there is no easy way to go past
that edit box and the entire website becomes unusable. I know, this
is
probably not a very screenreader-friendly website, but Jaws manages
to
work fine with it somehow. I would say that this problem is one of
the
major disadvantages of NVDA compared to Jaws.

On 12/21/18, Tony Malykh via Groups.Io
<anton.malykh@...>
wrote:
Hi Felix,
I experience all the same problems as you described: rubber band
browse mode cursor jumping back on large webpages, and also edit
boxes
automatically entering forms mode even though I didn't ask them to.
It's good to know that this is a known issue, but this indeed seems
like a complicated issue to fix.
1. It seems to me that adding a switch like "browse mode cursor
moves
system focus" would be a very useful fix in the short term. We
already
have a "caret moves review cursor" switch bound to NVDA+6 - so it
seems to be just a question of adding another switch like this. I
have
to say that most of the web sites work fine for me with current NVDA
behavior, and for those websites that don't work very well, this new
switch might come very handy.
2. Do you know how Jaws works around this problem? Do they not
update
system focus at all when in browse mode? Or they only update it when
they realise that some other gesture might require updated focus?

Best
Tony


On 12/21/18, Felix G. <constantlyvariable@...> wrote:
Just found a ticket on this problem:
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/2039
Best,
Felix

Am Fr., 21. Dez. 2018 um 15:51 Uhr schrieb Felix G. via Groups.Io
<constantlyvariable@...>:

Hello Gene,
exactly, that's what I am referring to: A way to move the browse
mode
cursor through a page without triggering events in the browser. It
would feel lightning-fast, as it would only involve changing a
position in an internal textual representation fully managed by
NVDA
in its own process space. When hitting enter or the space bar to
interact with something, focus could then be brought to that
object.
The analogy in the sighted world is that of a touch screen: Just
looking at the contents does not generate events, and is therefore
not
slowed down by anything the browser needs to handle.
I am calling those events focus changes because technically that's
what they are. Focus, in this context, is the Windows concept
defined
as a control's responsibility for handling keyboard input. It's
hard
to describe without leaving a lot of dangling terms as it's a very
technical notion in Windows programming.
Best,
Felix

Am Fr., 21. Dez. 2018 um 15:29 Uhr schrieb Gene
<gsasner@...>:

I may Have misunderstood what you want to do and I may not have
the
technical knowledge to fully understand what you want changed.
Are
you
talking about being able to move through a web page and have
browse
mode
just show you the page, as though you had copied it into
something
like
Notepad? In that case, you would move, but nothing would ever
be
triggered on the page as you move. But you seem to be
discussing
this
related to a feature that allows a person to see where the blind
person
is on the page. If so, why are you assuming they are related?
Isn't
there already a setting to turn off this feature, used by
sighted
instructors or others working with a blind person?

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 8:14 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus

I suspect that the JAWS cursor may see the web page text when
NVDA
review doesn't.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 5:06 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus

Probably not, but if you can explain a little more clearly when
you
need
to
have it as you describe then we might be a bit wiser. Remember
not
everyone
has Jaws or uses all if its features, so we may learn something
here.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Felix G." <constantlyvariable@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 9:29 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus


Hello Marcio,
I could only find checkboxes dealing with the conditions for
automatically switching to focus mode, but nothing related to
focus
changes. Those are completely different concepts. Are you sure
we
are
on the same page?
Best,
Felix

Am Fr., 21. Dez. 2018 um 09:45 Uhr schrieb marcio via
Groups.Io
<marcinhorj21@...>:

Hello,
You can configure it through the Settings, which can be found
at
the
NVDA
Menu (NVDA+N).
Search for browse mode, then uncheck the boxes on automatic
change
or
something like that. I don't know how it should appear because
I'm
not
using NVDA in English, but I hope it can help you somehow.

________________________________
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Marcio
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Em 21/12/2018 05:53, Felix G. escreveu:

Hello list,
I'd like to ask how to keep focus from following the browse
mode
cursor. While this behavior may often be desirable, there are
many
instances in which it unnecessarily slows down the browsing
experience
as NVDA needs to constantly keep track of focus events,
deciding
whether or not they are related to browse mode cursor
movements.
With
unfortunate timing, NVDA sometimes fails to associate a
browse
mode
cursor action with its corresponding focus event and bounces
back
a
few lines or switches to forms mode because it thinks focus
has
changed asynchronously on behalf of the website rather than
the
user.
The sighted world analogy of moving the browse mode cursor is
simply
reading, which should not be associated with so many events in
the
browser.
If anyone would like to try out how the other behavior, as
also
seen
in JAWS, would feel in terms of speed: Go to a complex website
and
then navigate in browse mode, but not using the standard
arrow
keys
but instead the review cursor (numpad 7 and numpad 9).
All the best,
Felix






















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