Re: Browse mode and focus
I meant to thank you for this addon. As you say it does seem to improve responsiveness while accessing the Web and so I'm very grateful that you took the time to write and release this.
Thank you for your service.
David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist WWW.David-Goldfield.Com
On 12/25/2018 2:47 PM, Tony Malykh wrote:
I just wrote a tiny add-on that prevents NVDA from sending focus events to the browser. Binary: https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fmltony%2Fnvda-super-browser%2Freleases%2Fdownload%2Fv0.1dev%2Fsuperbrowser-0.1dev.nvda-addon&data=02%7C01%7C%7C3154617091b9454bcc3608d66aa1c72b%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636813640388529360&sdata=eTebXXud1KO6xO2fZbS5GsH%2BOfft7%2B2s94W7ItAVCQQ%3D&reserved=0 Source and description: https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fmltony%2Fnvda-super-browser%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C3154617091b9454bcc3608d66aa1c72b%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636813640388529360&sdata=mrmdXsR7tcB76B%2BRMmiDNu3wIqzO05CGCc7X3jNQfas%3D&reserved=0 Press NVDA+8 to turn focus sending to browsers on and off. It's not a production-ready add-on, as it introduces a lot of side effects when not sending focus events. However, it'll give you an idea how much faster and more responsive your browsing experience might become without these focus events being sent back and forth. On 12/21/18, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:Are you sure you have automatic switching off in NVDA? I never have browse mode turn off when I have the automatic switching feature off. I have repeatedly said that automatic switching should not be on by default. It is not a setting that people should have on unless they know about it and understand exactly how it works. And to confuse unknowledgeable and learning users more, it automatically switches modes when you move in some ways and it doesn't switch when you move in other ways. People learning how to use the internet should not have this feature confusing them and making it harder to learn. Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Malykh Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 1:11 PM To: email@example.com Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus I must also add that edit boxes sporadically entering forms mode is a very big problem for me. At work I have to use a website that contains an edit box that somehow always enters forms mode and once this happens, the web site opens a popup dialog somewhere in the end of the page and brings the focus there. So there is no easy way to go past that edit box and the entire website becomes unusable. I know, this is probably not a very screenreader-friendly website, but Jaws manages to work fine with it somehow. I would say that this problem is one of the major disadvantages of NVDA compared to Jaws. On 12/21/18, Tony Malykh via Groups.Io <anton.malykh@...> wrote:Hi Felix, I experience all the same problems as you described: rubber band browse mode cursor jumping back on large webpages, and also edit boxes automatically entering forms mode even though I didn't ask them to. It's good to know that this is a known issue, but this indeed seems like a complicated issue to fix. 1. It seems to me that adding a switch like "browse mode cursor moves system focus" would be a very useful fix in the short term. We already have a "caret moves review cursor" switch bound to NVDA+6 - so it seems to be just a question of adding another switch like this. I have to say that most of the web sites work fine for me with current NVDA behavior, and for those websites that don't work very well, this new switch might come very handy. 2. Do you know how Jaws works around this problem? Do they not update system focus at all when in browse mode? Or they only update it when they realise that some other gesture might require updated focus? Best Tony On 12/21/18, Felix G. <constantlyvariable@...> wrote:Just found a ticket on this problem: https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fnvaccess%2Fnvda%2Fissues%2F2039&data=02%7C01%7C%7C3154617091b9454bcc3608d66aa1c72b%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636813640388529360&sdata=%2BjIsiaGma9V0Ym0juy2COLOD1v1Dq9HThNIY3tzkOpE%3D&reserved=0 Best, Felix Am Fr., 21. Dez. 2018 um 15:51 Uhr schrieb Felix G. via Groups.Io <constantlyvariable@...>:Hello Gene, exactly, that's what I am referring to: A way to move the browse mode cursor through a page without triggering events in the browser. It would feel lightning-fast, as it would only involve changing a position in an internal textual representation fully managed by NVDA in its own process space. When hitting enter or the space bar to interact with something, focus could then be brought to that object. The analogy in the sighted world is that of a touch screen: Just looking at the contents does not generate events, and is therefore not slowed down by anything the browser needs to handle. I am calling those events focus changes because technically that's what they are. Focus, in this context, is the Windows concept defined as a control's responsibility for handling keyboard input. It's hard to describe without leaving a lot of dangling terms as it's a very technical notion in Windows programming. Best, Felix Am Fr., 21. Dez. 2018 um 15:29 Uhr schrieb Gene <gsasner@...>:I may Have misunderstood what you want to do and I may not have the technical knowledge to fully understand what you want changed. Are you talking about being able to move through a web page and have browse mode just show you the page, as though you had copied it into something like Notepad? In that case, you would move, but nothing would ever be triggered on the page as you move. But you seem to be discussing this related to a feature that allows a person to see where the blind person is on the page. If so, why are you assuming they are related? Isn't there already a setting to turn off this feature, used by sighted instructors or others working with a blind person? Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: Gene Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 8:14 AM To: firstname.lastname@example.org Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus I suspect that the JAWS cursor may see the web page text when NVDA review doesn't. Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 5:06 AM To: email@example.com Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus Probably not, but if you can explain a little more clearly when you need to have it as you describe then we might be a bit wiser. Remember not everyone has Jaws or uses all if its features, so we may learn something here. Brian bglists@... Sent via blueyonder. Please address personal E-mail to:- briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff' in the display name field. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Felix G." <constantlyvariable@...> To: <firstname.lastname@example.org> Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 9:29 AM Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focusHello Marcio, I could only find checkboxes dealing with the conditions for automatically switching to focus mode, but nothing related to focus changes. Those are completely different concepts. Are you sure we are on the same page? Best, Felix Am Fr., 21. Dez. 2018 um 09:45 Uhr schrieb marcio via Groups.Io <marcinhorj21@...>:Hello, You can configure it through the Settings, which can be found at the NVDA Menu (NVDA+N). Search for browse mode, then uncheck the boxes on automatic change or something like that. I don't know how it should appear because I'm not using NVDA in English, but I hope it can help you somehow. ________________________________ Cheers, Marcio ________________________________ Where to find me: My Yahoo! email Add me on Skype Follow me on Twitter Follow or add me on Facebook Ask me something on CuriousCat ________________________________ Phone(s): (+55)21-9-81615268 (Tim-RJ) ________________________________ My WhatsApp ________________________________ Em 21/12/2018 05:53, Felix G. escreveu: Hello list, I'd like to ask how to keep focus from following the browse mode cursor. While this behavior may often be desirable, there are many instances in which it unnecessarily slows down the browsing experience as NVDA needs to constantly keep track of focus events, deciding whether or not they are related to browse mode cursor movements. With unfortunate timing, NVDA sometimes fails to associate a browse mode cursor action with its corresponding focus event and bounces back a few lines or switches to forms mode because it thinks focus has changed asynchronously on behalf of the website rather than the user. The sighted world analogy of moving the browse mode cursor is simply reading, which should not be associated with so many events in the browser. If anyone would like to try out how the other behavior, as also seen in JAWS, would feel in terms of speed: Go to a complex website and then navigate in browse mode, but not using the standard arrow keys but instead the review cursor (numpad 7 and numpad 9). All the best, Felix