Re: Browse mode and focus


 

Hi,
There is one potential issue that may show up once a research project from a developer in Europe comes to NVDA. See my comment on that pull request for details. Thanks.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tony Malykh
Sent: Monday, December 31, 2018 4:32 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus

This is not an andd-on, this is rather a pull request - a patch for NVDA. It does very similar things but in a much cleaner way.
SuperBrowser add-on was experimental, since it broke many things. Pull request I prepared cannot be installed - rather NVDA devs should hopefully merge it into the next release of NVDA, but it speeds up browsing experience without breaking anything (hopefully - it doesn't break anything for me, but more testing might reveal more problems).

On 12/31/18, marcio via Groups.Io <marcinhorj21=yahoo.com.br@groups.io> wrote:
Hello Tony,
Could you please tell me the differences between this add-on and the
old called Super Browser?
I downloaded the latter I said but have never tested it.

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Cheers,
Marcio

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-- Em 31/12/2018 22:14, Tony Malykh escreveu:
I have created a pull request that speeds up browse mode. Now I hope
NVDA devs will be kind enough to accept it:
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/pull/9114

Basically it creates a new mode in NVDA that can be toggled on and
off by pressing NVDA+8 (remember to uninstall my SuperBrowser add-on
that overrides the same keystroke). In this mode system focus doesn't
follow browse mode and the entire browsing experience is much
smoother on my computer. Edit boxes don't steal your focus without
your permission either.

--Tony


On 12/29/18, Sarah k Alawami <marrie12@gmail.com> wrote:
If they approve, can you put this on the central repo for the add ons?
This seems very useful.

Take care

On 28 Dec 2018, at 21:57, David Goldfield wrote:

Tony,

I meant to thank you for this addon. As you say it does seem to
improve responsiveness while accessing the Web and so I'm very
grateful that you took the time to write and release this.

Thank you for your service.

David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist
WWW.David-Goldfield.Com<http://WWW.David-Goldfield.Com>
On 12/25/2018 2:47 PM, Tony Malykh wrote:

I just wrote a tiny add-on that prevents NVDA from sending focus
events to the browser.
Binary:
https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fg
ithub.com%2Fmltony%2Fnvda-super-browser%2Freleases%2Fdownload%2Fv0.
1dev%2Fsuperbrowser-0.1dev.nvda-addon&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C3154617
091b9454bcc3608d66aa1c72b%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C
0%7C636813640388529360&amp;sdata=eTebXXud1KO6xO2fZbS5GsH%2BOfft7%2B
2s94W7ItAVCQQ%3D&amp;reserved=0
Source and description:
https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fg
ithub.com%2Fmltony%2Fnvda-super-browser%2F&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C31
54617091b9454bcc3608d66aa1c72b%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7
C1%7C0%7C636813640388529360&amp;sdata=mrmdXsR7tcB76B%2BRMmiDNu3wIqz
O05CGCc7X3jNQfas%3D&amp;reserved=0
Press NVDA+8 to turn focus sending to browsers on and off.
It's not a production-ready add-on, as it introduces a lot of side
effects when not sending focus events. However, it'll give you an
idea how much faster and more responsive your browsing experience
might become without these focus events being sent back and forth.


On 12/21/18, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com><mailto:gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:


Are you sure you have automatic switching off in NVDA? I never
have browse mode turn off when I have the automatic switching
feature off. I have repeatedly said that automatic switching
should not be on by default.
It is
not a setting that people should have on unless they know about it
and understand exactly how it works.

And to confuse unknowledgeable and learning users more, it
automatically switches modes when you move in some ways and it
doesn't switch when you move in other ways. People learning how to
use the internet should not have this feature confusing them and
making it harder to learn.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Tony Malykh
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 1:11 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus


I must also add that edit boxes sporadically entering forms mode is
a very big problem for me. At work I have to use a website that
contains an edit box that somehow always enters forms mode and once
this happens, the web site opens a popup dialog somewhere in the
end of the page and brings the focus there. So there is no easy way
to go past that edit box and the entire website becomes unusable. I
know, this is probably not a very screenreader-friendly website,
but Jaws manages to work fine with it somehow. I would say that
this problem is one of the major disadvantages of NVDA compared to Jaws.

On 12/21/18, Tony Malykh via Groups.Io
<anton.malykh=gmail.com@groups.io><mailto:anton.malykh=gmail.com@gr
oups.io>
wrote:


Hi Felix,
I experience all the same problems as you described: rubber band
browse mode cursor jumping back on large webpages, and also edit
boxes automatically entering forms mode even though I didn't ask them to.
It's good to know that this is a known issue, but this indeed seems
like a complicated issue to fix.
1. It seems to me that adding a switch like "browse mode cursor
moves system focus" would be a very useful fix in the short term.
We already have a "caret moves review cursor" switch bound to
NVDA+6 - so it seems to be just a question of adding another switch
like this. I have to say that most of the web sites work fine for
me with current NVDA behavior, and for those websites that don't
work very well, this new switch might come very handy.
2. Do you know how Jaws works around this problem? Do they not
update system focus at all when in browse mode? Or they only update
it when they realise that some other gesture might require updated focus?

Best
Tony


On 12/21/18, Felix G.
<constantlyvariable@gmail.com><mailto:constantlyvariable@gmail.com>
wrote:


Just found a ticket on this problem:
https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fg
ithub.com%2Fnvaccess%2Fnvda%2Fissues%2F2039&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C3
154617091b9454bcc3608d66aa1c72b%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%
7C1%7C0%7C636813640388529360&amp;sdata=%2BjIsiaGma9V0Ym0juy2COLOD1v
1Dq9HThNIY3tzkOpE%3D&amp;reserved=0
Best,
Felix

Am Fr., 21. Dez. 2018 um 15:51 Uhr schrieb Felix G. via Groups.Io
<constantlyvariable=gmail.com@groups.io><mailto:constantlyvariable=gmail.com@groups.io>:



Hello Gene,
exactly, that's what I am referring to: A way to move the browse
mode cursor through a page without triggering events in the
browser. It would feel lightning-fast, as it would only involve
changing a position in an internal textual representation fully
managed by NVDA in its own process space. When hitting enter or the
space bar to interact with something, focus could then be brought to that object.
The analogy in the sighted world is that of a touch screen: Just
looking at the contents does not generate events, and is therefore
not slowed down by anything the browser needs to handle.
I am calling those events focus changes because technically that's
what they are. Focus, in this context, is the Windows concept
defined as a control's responsibility for handling keyboard input.
It's hard to describe without leaving a lot of dangling terms as
it's a very technical notion in Windows programming.
Best,
Felix

Am Fr., 21. Dez. 2018 um 15:29 Uhr schrieb Gene
<gsasner@gmail.com><mailto:gsasner@gmail.com>:



I may Have misunderstood what you want to do and I may not have the
technical knowledge to fully understand what you want changed. Are
you talking about being able to move through a web page and have
browse mode just show you the page, as though you had copied it
into something like Notepad? In that case, you would move, but
nothing would ever be triggered on the page as you move. But you
seem to be discussing this related to a feature that allows a
person to see where the blind person is on the page. If so, why
are you assuming they are related? Isn't there already a setting
to turn off this feature, used by sighted instructors or others
working with a blind person?

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 8:14 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus

I suspect that the JAWS cursor may see the web page text when NVDA
review doesn't.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 5:06 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus

Probably not, but if you can explain a little more clearly when you
need
to
have it as you describe then we might be a bit wiser. Remember not
everyone
has Jaws or uses all if its features, so we may learn something here.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:bglists@blueyonder.co.uk>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Felix G."
<constantlyvariable@gmail.com><mailto:constantlyvariable@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io><mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 9:29 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus




Hello Marcio,
I could only find checkboxes dealing with the conditions for
automatically switching to focus mode, but nothing related to focus
changes. Those are completely different concepts. Are you sure we
are
on the same page?
Best,
Felix

Am Fr., 21. Dez. 2018 um 09:45 Uhr schrieb marcio via Groups.Io
<marcinhorj21=yahoo.com.br@groups.io><mailto:marcinhorj21=yahoo.com.br@groups.io>:



Hello,
You can configure it through the Settings, which can be found at
the
NVDA
Menu (NVDA+N).
Search for browse mode, then uncheck the boxes on automatic change
or
something like that. I don't know how it should appear because I'm
not
using NVDA in English, but I hope it can help you somehow.

________________________________
Cheers,
Marcio
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Em 21/12/2018 05:53, Felix G. escreveu:

Hello list,
I'd like to ask how to keep focus from following the browse mode
cursor. While this behavior may often be desirable, there are many
instances in which it unnecessarily slows down the browsing
experience
as NVDA needs to constantly keep track of focus events, deciding
whether or not they are related to browse mode cursor movements.
With
unfortunate timing, NVDA sometimes fails to associate a browse
mode
cursor action with its corresponding focus event and bounces back
a
few lines or switches to forms mode because it thinks focus has
changed asynchronously on behalf of the website rather than the
user.
The sighted world analogy of moving the browse mode cursor is
simply
reading, which should not be associated with so many events in the
browser.
If anyone would like to try out how the other behavior, as also
seen
in JAWS, would feel in terms of speed: Go to a complex website and
then navigate in browse mode, but not using the standard arrow
keys
but instead the review cursor (numpad 7 and numpad 9).
All the best,
Felix
























































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