Re: Browse mode and focus


Felix G.
 

Hi!
I'm excited and enthusiastic about this. What accessibility needs are
interfaces that don't just work in principle but are delightful to
use; or to put it bluntly, a user experience that does not suck,
driven by people who do not think being dissatisfied means being
ungrateful.
@Tony do you have the resources to make a try build? Otherwise I'll do
it in just a few days when i'm back where my tech stuff is.
@Joseph that research project sounds interesting. Can you give a pointer please?
Best,
Felix


Am Di., 1. Jan. 2019 um 01:35 Uhr schrieb marcio via Groups.Io
<marcinhorj21=yahoo.com.br@groups.io>:


Sure, so I'm going to try Super Browser to see what it's like. Taking the risk, of course, but it's all about experiments :)
Thanks for the answer.

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Em 31/12/2018 22:32, Tony Malykh escreveu:

This is not an andd-on, this is rather a pull request - a patch for
NVDA. It does very similar things but in a much cleaner way.
SuperBrowser add-on was experimental, since it broke many things. Pull
request I prepared cannot be installed - rather NVDA devs should
hopefully merge it into the next release of NVDA, but it speeds up
browsing experience without breaking anything (hopefully - it doesn't
break anything for me, but more testing might reveal more problems).

On 12/31/18, marcio via Groups.Io <marcinhorj21=yahoo.com.br@groups.io> wrote:

Hello Tony,
Could you please tell me the differences between this add-on and the old
called Super Browser?
I downloaded the latter I said but have never tested it.

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Marcio

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Em 31/12/2018 22:14, Tony Malykh escreveu:

I have created a pull request that speeds up browse mode. Now I hope
NVDA devs will be kind enough to accept it:
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/pull/9114

Basically it creates a new mode in NVDA that can be toggled on and off
by pressing NVDA+8 (remember to uninstall my SuperBrowser add-on that
overrides the same keystroke). In this mode system focus doesn't
follow browse mode and the entire browsing experience is much smoother
on my computer. Edit boxes don't steal your focus without your
permission either.

--Tony


On 12/29/18, Sarah k Alawami <marrie12@gmail.com> wrote:

If they approve, can you put this on the central repo for the add ons?
This seems very useful.

Take care

On 28 Dec 2018, at 21:57, David Goldfield wrote:

Tony,

I meant to thank you for this addon. As you say it does seem to
improve responsiveness while accessing the Web and so I'm very
grateful that you took the time to write and release this.

Thank you for your service.

David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist
WWW.David-Goldfield.Com<http://WWW.David-Goldfield.Com>
On 12/25/2018 2:47 PM, Tony Malykh wrote:

I just wrote a tiny add-on that prevents NVDA from sending focus
events to the browser.
Binary:
https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fmltony%2Fnvda-super-browser%2Freleases%2Fdownload%2Fv0.1dev%2Fsuperbrowser-0.1dev.nvda-addon&;data=02%7C01%7C%7C3154617091b9454bcc3608d66aa1c72b%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636813640388529360&amp;sdata=eTebXXud1KO6xO2fZbS5GsH%2BOfft7%2B2s94W7ItAVCQQ%3D&amp;reserved=0
Source and description:
https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fmltony%2Fnvda-super-browser%2F&;data=02%7C01%7C%7C3154617091b9454bcc3608d66aa1c72b%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636813640388529360&amp;sdata=mrmdXsR7tcB76B%2BRMmiDNu3wIqzO05CGCc7X3jNQfas%3D&amp;reserved=0
Press NVDA+8 to turn focus sending to browsers on and off.
It's not a production-ready add-on, as it introduces a lot of side
effects when not sending focus events. However, it'll give you an idea
how much faster and more responsive your browsing experience might
become without these focus events being sent back and forth.


On 12/21/18, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com><mailto:gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:


Are you sure you have automatic switching off in NVDA? I never have
browse
mode turn off when I have the automatic switching feature off. I have
repeatedly said that automatic switching should not be on by default.
It is
not a setting that people should have on unless they know about it and
understand exactly how it works.

And to confuse unknowledgeable and learning users more, it
automatically
switches modes when you move in some ways and it doesn't switch when
you
move in other ways. People learning how to use the internet should
not have
this feature confusing them and making it harder to learn.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Tony Malykh
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 1:11 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus


I must also add that edit boxes sporadically entering forms mode is a
very big problem for me. At work I have to use a website that contains
an edit box that somehow always enters forms mode and once this
happens, the web site opens a popup dialog somewhere in the end of the
page and brings the focus there. So there is no easy way to go past
that edit box and the entire website becomes unusable. I know, this is
probably not a very screenreader-friendly website, but Jaws manages to
work fine with it somehow. I would say that this problem is one of the
major disadvantages of NVDA compared to Jaws.

On 12/21/18, Tony Malykh via Groups.Io
<anton.malykh=gmail.com@groups.io><mailto:anton.malykh=gmail.com@groups.io>
wrote:


Hi Felix,
I experience all the same problems as you described: rubber band
browse mode cursor jumping back on large webpages, and also edit boxes
automatically entering forms mode even though I didn't ask them to.
It's good to know that this is a known issue, but this indeed seems
like a complicated issue to fix.
1. It seems to me that adding a switch like "browse mode cursor moves
system focus" would be a very useful fix in the short term. We already
have a "caret moves review cursor" switch bound to NVDA+6 - so it
seems to be just a question of adding another switch like this. I have
to say that most of the web sites work fine for me with current NVDA
behavior, and for those websites that don't work very well, this new
switch might come very handy.
2. Do you know how Jaws works around this problem? Do they not update
system focus at all when in browse mode? Or they only update it when
they realise that some other gesture might require updated focus?

Best
Tony


On 12/21/18, Felix G.
<constantlyvariable@gmail.com><mailto:constantlyvariable@gmail.com>
wrote:


Just found a ticket on this problem:
https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fnvaccess%2Fnvda%2Fissues%2F2039&;data=02%7C01%7C%7C3154617091b9454bcc3608d66aa1c72b%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636813640388529360&amp;sdata=%2BjIsiaGma9V0Ym0juy2COLOD1v1Dq9HThNIY3tzkOpE%3D&amp;reserved=0
Best,
Felix

Am Fr., 21. Dez. 2018 um 15:51 Uhr schrieb Felix G. via Groups.Io
<constantlyvariable=gmail.com@groups.io><mailto:constantlyvariable=gmail.com@groups.io>:



Hello Gene,
exactly, that's what I am referring to: A way to move the browse mode
cursor through a page without triggering events in the browser. It
would feel lightning-fast, as it would only involve changing a
position in an internal textual representation fully managed by NVDA
in its own process space. When hitting enter or the space bar to
interact with something, focus could then be brought to that object.
The analogy in the sighted world is that of a touch screen: Just
looking at the contents does not generate events, and is therefore not
slowed down by anything the browser needs to handle.
I am calling those events focus changes because technically that's
what they are. Focus, in this context, is the Windows concept defined
as a control's responsibility for handling keyboard input. It's hard
to describe without leaving a lot of dangling terms as it's a very
technical notion in Windows programming.
Best,
Felix

Am Fr., 21. Dez. 2018 um 15:29 Uhr schrieb Gene
<gsasner@gmail.com><mailto:gsasner@gmail.com>:



I may Have misunderstood what you want to do and I may not have the
technical knowledge to fully understand what you want changed. Are
you
talking about being able to move through a web page and have browse
mode
just show you the page, as though you had copied it into something
like
Notepad? In that case, you would move, but nothing would ever be
triggered on the page as you move. But you seem to be discussing
this
related to a feature that allows a person to see where the blind
person
is on the page. If so, why are you assuming they are related? Isn't
there already a setting to turn off this feature, used by sighted
instructors or others working with a blind person?

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 8:14 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus

I suspect that the JAWS cursor may see the web page text when NVDA
review doesn't.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 5:06 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus

Probably not, but if you can explain a little more clearly when you
need
to
have it as you describe then we might be a bit wiser. Remember not
everyone
has Jaws or uses all if its features, so we may learn something here.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:bglists@blueyonder.co.uk>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:briang1@blueyonder.co.uk>, putting
'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Felix G."
<constantlyvariable@gmail.com><mailto:constantlyvariable@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io><mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 9:29 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus




Hello Marcio,
I could only find checkboxes dealing with the conditions for
automatically switching to focus mode, but nothing related to focus
changes. Those are completely different concepts. Are you sure we
are
on the same page?
Best,
Felix

Am Fr., 21. Dez. 2018 um 09:45 Uhr schrieb marcio via Groups.Io
<marcinhorj21=yahoo.com.br@groups.io><mailto:marcinhorj21=yahoo.com.br@groups.io>:



Hello,
You can configure it through the Settings, which can be found at
the
NVDA
Menu (NVDA+N).
Search for browse mode, then uncheck the boxes on automatic change
or
something like that. I don't know how it should appear because I'm
not
using NVDA in English, but I hope it can help you somehow.

________________________________
Cheers,
Marcio
________________________________
Where to find me:
My Yahoo! email
Add me on Skype
Follow me on Twitter
Follow or add me on Facebook
Ask me something on CuriousCat
________________________________
Phone(s):
(+55)21-9-81615268 (Tim-RJ)
________________________________
My WhatsApp
________________________________
Em 21/12/2018 05:53, Felix G. escreveu:

Hello list,
I'd like to ask how to keep focus from following the browse mode
cursor. While this behavior may often be desirable, there are many
instances in which it unnecessarily slows down the browsing
experience
as NVDA needs to constantly keep track of focus events, deciding
whether or not they are related to browse mode cursor movements.
With
unfortunate timing, NVDA sometimes fails to associate a browse
mode
cursor action with its corresponding focus event and bounces back
a
few lines or switches to forms mode because it thinks focus has
changed asynchronously on behalf of the website rather than the
user.
The sighted world analogy of moving the browse mode cursor is
simply
reading, which should not be associated with so many events in the
browser.
If anyone would like to try out how the other behavior, as also
seen
in JAWS, would feel in terms of speed: Go to a complex website and
then navigate in browse mode, but not using the standard arrow
keys
but instead the review cursor (numpad 7 and numpad 9).
All the best,
Felix
































































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