Re: Browse mode and focus


Felix G.
 

Hi,
thanks for pointing it out! I wouldn't recommend that particular one
though---for me it crashes almost instantly after startup. Which of
course doesn't mean the pull request has problems. Rather, master at
time of build was probably not too well.
Best,
Felix

Am Do., 3. Jan. 2019 um 18:06 Uhr schrieb Joseph Lee
<joseph.lee22590@gmail.com>:


Hi,
Actually, there's really no need to make a try build, because there is already a "try" build: every pull request is built for you automatically so you can test it or let it go through automated testing.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tony Malykh
Sent: Thursday, January 3, 2019 9:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus

HI Felix,
I don't have much time - holidays are over. Making a build is a great idea. You can make it straight from my fork:
https://github.com/mltony/nvda
branch fast_browse_mode.
By the way is there a document explaining how to make builds? I only found the one explaining how to run from sources, but I assume you want to make an executable build.
And please do let me know what you think about fast browse mode.

Best
Tony

On 1/3/19, Felix G. <constantlyvariable@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi!
I'm excited and enthusiastic about this. What accessibility needs are
interfaces that don't just work in principle but are delightful to
use; or to put it bluntly, a user experience that does not suck,
driven by people who do not think being dissatisfied means being
ungrateful.
@Tony do you have the resources to make a try build? Otherwise I'll do
it in just a few days when i'm back where my tech stuff is.
@Joseph that research project sounds interesting. Can you give a
pointer please?
Best,
Felix


Am Di., 1. Jan. 2019 um 01:35 Uhr schrieb marcio via Groups.Io
<marcinhorj21=yahoo.com.br@groups.io>:

Sure, so I'm going to try Super Browser to see what it's like. Taking
the risk, of course, but it's all about experiments :) Thanks for the
answer.

________________________________
Cheers,
Marcio
________________________________
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Em 31/12/2018 22:32, Tony Malykh escreveu:

This is not an andd-on, this is rather a pull request - a patch for
NVDA. It does very similar things but in a much cleaner way.
SuperBrowser add-on was experimental, since it broke many things.
Pull request I prepared cannot be installed - rather NVDA devs should
hopefully merge it into the next release of NVDA, but it speeds up
browsing experience without breaking anything (hopefully - it doesn't
break anything for me, but more testing might reveal more problems).

On 12/31/18, marcio via Groups.Io
<marcinhorj21=yahoo.com.br@groups.io>
wrote:

Hello Tony,
Could you please tell me the differences between this add-on and the
old called Super Browser?
I downloaded the latter I said but have never tested it.

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Marcio

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--- Em 31/12/2018 22:14, Tony Malykh escreveu:

I have created a pull request that speeds up browse mode. Now I hope
NVDA devs will be kind enough to accept it:
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/pull/9114

Basically it creates a new mode in NVDA that can be toggled on and
off by pressing NVDA+8 (remember to uninstall my SuperBrowser add-on
that overrides the same keystroke). In this mode system focus doesn't
follow browse mode and the entire browsing experience is much
smoother on my computer. Edit boxes don't steal your focus without
your permission either.

--Tony


On 12/29/18, Sarah k Alawami <marrie12@gmail.com> wrote:

If they approve, can you put this on the central repo for the add ons?
This seems very useful.

Take care

On 28 Dec 2018, at 21:57, David Goldfield wrote:

Tony,

I meant to thank you for this addon. As you say it does seem to
improve responsiveness while accessing the Web and so I'm very
grateful that you took the time to write and release this.

Thank you for your service.

David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist
WWW.David-Goldfield.Com<http://WWW.David-Goldfield.Com>
On 12/25/2018 2:47 PM, Tony Malykh wrote:

I just wrote a tiny add-on that prevents NVDA from sending focus
events to the browser.
Binary:
https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgit
hub.com%2Fmltony%2Fnvda-super-browser%2Freleases%2Fdownload%2Fv0.1dev
%2Fsuperbrowser-0.1dev.nvda-addon&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C3154617091b94
54bcc3608d66aa1c72b%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C6368
13640388529360&amp;sdata=eTebXXud1KO6xO2fZbS5GsH%2BOfft7%2B2s94W7ItAV
CQQ%3D&amp;reserved=0
Source and description:
https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgit
hub.com%2Fmltony%2Fnvda-super-browser%2F&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C315461
7091b9454bcc3608d66aa1c72b%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0
%7C636813640388529360&amp;sdata=mrmdXsR7tcB76B%2BRMmiDNu3wIqzO05CGCc7
X3jNQfas%3D&amp;reserved=0 Press NVDA+8 to turn focus sending to
browsers on and off.
It's not a production-ready add-on, as it introduces a lot of side
effects when not sending focus events. However, it'll give you an
idea how much faster and more responsive your browsing experience
might become without these focus events being sent back and forth.


On 12/21/18, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com><mailto:gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:


Are you sure you have automatic switching off in NVDA? I never have
browse mode turn off when I have the automatic switching feature off.
I have repeatedly said that automatic switching should not be on by
default.
It is
not a setting that people should have on unless they know about it
and understand exactly how it works.

And to confuse unknowledgeable and learning users more, it
automatically switches modes when you move in some ways and it
doesn't switch when you move in other ways. People learning how to
use the internet should not have this feature confusing them and
making it harder to learn.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Tony Malykh
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 1:11 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus


I must also add that edit boxes sporadically entering forms mode is a
very big problem for me. At work I have to use a website that
contains an edit box that somehow always enters forms mode and once
this happens, the web site opens a popup dialog somewhere in the end
of the page and brings the focus there. So there is no easy way to go
past that edit box and the entire website becomes unusable. I know,
this is probably not a very screenreader-friendly website, but Jaws
manages to work fine with it somehow. I would say that this problem
is one of the major disadvantages of NVDA compared to Jaws.

On 12/21/18, Tony Malykh via Groups.Io
<anton.malykh=gmail.com@groups.io><mailto:anton.malykh=gmail.com@grou
ps.io>
wrote:


Hi Felix,
I experience all the same problems as you described: rubber band
browse mode cursor jumping back on large webpages, and also edit
boxes automatically entering forms mode even though I didn't ask them to.
It's good to know that this is a known issue, but this indeed seems
like a complicated issue to fix.
1. It seems to me that adding a switch like "browse mode cursor moves
system focus" would be a very useful fix in the short term. We
already have a "caret moves review cursor" switch bound to NVDA+6 -
so it seems to be just a question of adding another switch like this.
I have to say that most of the web sites work fine for me with
current NVDA behavior, and for those websites that don't work very
well, this new switch might come very handy.
2. Do you know how Jaws works around this problem? Do they not update
system focus at all when in browse mode? Or they only update it when
they realise that some other gesture might require updated focus?

Best
Tony


On 12/21/18, Felix G.
<constantlyvariable@gmail.com><mailto:constantlyvariable@gmail.com>
wrote:


Just found a ticket on this problem:
https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgit
hub.com%2Fnvaccess%2Fnvda%2Fissues%2F2039&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C31546
17091b9454bcc3608d66aa1c72b%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C
0%7C636813640388529360&amp;sdata=%2BjIsiaGma9V0Ym0juy2COLOD1v1Dq9HThN
IY3tzkOpE%3D&amp;reserved=0
Best,
Felix

Am Fr., 21. Dez. 2018 um 15:51 Uhr schrieb Felix G. via Groups.Io
<constantlyvariable=gmail.com@groups.io><mailto:constantlyvariable=gmail.com@groups.io>:



Hello Gene,
exactly, that's what I am referring to: A way to move the browse mode
cursor through a page without triggering events in the browser. It
would feel lightning-fast, as it would only involve changing a
position in an internal textual representation fully managed by NVDA
in its own process space. When hitting enter or the space bar to
interact with something, focus could then be brought to that object.
The analogy in the sighted world is that of a touch screen: Just
looking at the contents does not generate events, and is therefore
not slowed down by anything the browser needs to handle.
I am calling those events focus changes because technically that's
what they are. Focus, in this context, is the Windows concept defined
as a control's responsibility for handling keyboard input. It's hard
to describe without leaving a lot of dangling terms as it's a very
technical notion in Windows programming.
Best,
Felix

Am Fr., 21. Dez. 2018 um 15:29 Uhr schrieb Gene
<gsasner@gmail.com><mailto:gsasner@gmail.com>:



I may Have misunderstood what you want to do and I may not have the
technical knowledge to fully understand what you want changed. Are
you talking about being able to move through a web page and have
browse mode just show you the page, as though you had copied it into
something like Notepad? In that case, you would move, but nothing
would ever be triggered on the page as you move. But you seem to be
discussing this related to a feature that allows a person to see
where the blind person is on the page. If so, why are you assuming
they are related? Isn't there already a setting to turn off this
feature, used by sighted instructors or others working with a blind
person?

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 8:14 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus

I suspect that the JAWS cursor may see the web page text when NVDA
review doesn't.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 5:06 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus

Probably not, but if you can explain a little more clearly when you
need to have it as you describe then we might be a bit wiser.
Remember not everyone has Jaws or uses all if its features, so we may
learn something here.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:bglists@blueyonder.co.uk>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:briang1@blueyonder.co.uk>, putting
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Felix G."
<constantlyvariable@gmail.com><mailto:constantlyvariable@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io><mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 9:29 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Browse mode and focus




Hello Marcio,
I could only find checkboxes dealing with the conditions for
automatically switching to focus mode, but nothing related to focus
changes. Those are completely different concepts. Are you sure we are
on the same page?
Best,
Felix

Am Fr., 21. Dez. 2018 um 09:45 Uhr schrieb marcio via Groups.Io
<marcinhorj21=yahoo.com.br@groups.io><mailto:marcinhorj21=yahoo.com.br@groups.io>:



Hello,
You can configure it through the Settings, which can be found at the
NVDA Menu (NVDA+N).
Search for browse mode, then uncheck the boxes on automatic change or
something like that. I don't know how it should appear because I'm
not using NVDA in English, but I hope it can help you somehow.

________________________________
Cheers,
Marcio
________________________________
Where to find me:
My Yahoo! email
Add me on Skype
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Follow or add me on Facebook
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________________________________
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Em 21/12/2018 05:53, Felix G. escreveu:

Hello list,
I'd like to ask how to keep focus from following the browse mode
cursor. While this behavior may often be desirable, there are many
instances in which it unnecessarily slows down the browsing
experience as NVDA needs to constantly keep track of focus events,
deciding whether or not they are related to browse mode cursor
movements.
With
unfortunate timing, NVDA sometimes fails to associate a browse mode
cursor action with its corresponding focus event and bounces back a
few lines or switches to forms mode because it thinks focus has
changed asynchronously on behalf of the website rather than the user.
The sighted world analogy of moving the browse mode cursor is simply
reading, which should not be associated with so many events in the
browser.
If anyone would like to try out how the other behavior, as also seen
in JAWS, would feel in terms of speed: Go to a complex website and
then navigate in browse mode, but not using the standard arrow keys
but instead the review cursor (numpad 7 and numpad 9).
All the best,
Felix






































































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