Re: Golden Cursor question


Steve Nutt
 

I disagree.  Changing the layout is interpreting of course it is.  It’s saying well here’s the info, in the format we think is right, not in the visual format.

 

Whether you like it or not, that is interpreting and becomes sometimes, a problem when interacting with sighted people.

 

All the best


Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 20 February 2019 10:13
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Changing the layout isn't interpreting.  Interpreting is when you do something like describe something in the screen-reader's own words.  But this doesn't change what is read.  It is changing the layout to make reading logical for blind people.  There is nothing wrong with this.  it has been done with great success since MSAA was introduced in the late Nineties for reading web pages efficiently.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2019 2:57 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Of course they are interpreting.  It reads the screen, but UIA changes the perceived layout of the screen.

 

All the best


Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 19 February 2019 18:38
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

What you are complaining about isn't screen interpreting.  it is a decision about what information is included and how you can move through it.  You may disagree with such decisions, but they aren't screen interpreting. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2019 12:30 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Hi,

 

OK, incorrect in so much that you can move the mouse, but only by routing it.

 

Window-Eyes could not only move by clip, but by graphic as well, this is really powerful.

 

If you told me to click on the third graphic from the top left on the screen, only Window-Eyes would allow me to do this.

 

Whatever happened to screen reading, as opposed to screen interpreting?  Don’t even get me started.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 19 February 2019 16:33
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

I know that Window-eyes and JAWS have ways of moving the mouse such as by pixels and in the case of Window-eyes, in some other way that I don't recall now, sort of by structure.  I remembered the term while reviewing my message.  it is by clip, as Window-eyes called it.  But both also allow for moving the mouse around the screen as you do in NVDA.  The difference is that in NVDA, you move the review position, then route the mouse to where you stop the review navigator. 

 

In JAWS, you could move the mouse to the word click.  In NVDA, you would move the review navigator to the word click, then route the mouse.  the mouse ends up in the same place.  I'm simply saying that your statement that the mouse can't be moved from the keyboard in NVDA is factually, not a matter of opinion, not correct.  I am not disagreeing that JAWS and
Window-eyes allow for different, more precise movements.  I'm also not arguing that the Golden Cursor add-on is necessary in NVDA to move the mouse in finer and more varied ways.  But your statement is factually incorrect. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2019 9:56 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Hi Jean,

 

But again, although you answered my question, it just proves to me that I couldn’t find what I wanted, because it is not there, that is moving the mouse using the keyboard.  This is there, if you download Golden Cursor, but I’ve had this in Window-Eyes for years, so I couldn’t imagine managing without it now.  It even exists in JAWS.  Even mouse search doesn’t currently exist in NVDA, so to me, this isn’t screen reading at its best at the moment.  That’s only to me, remember, just one guy who is an advanced screen reader user, and in that respect, as I’ve always said, NVDA, isn’t there yet.  I wish it would be.

 

Another example of this problem is the Izotope plug in installer.  NVDA doesn’t see the screen at all, nothing is read, so you have to OCR it.  When I install with JAWS, it sees the screen, and I can move the mouse to the Next button, but I can’t click it by tabbing nor object naving to it, because NVDA simply doesn’t see the screen, unless I OCR it.  JAWS sees it out of the box.  This is why I still maintain that video hooking is a necessary evil.

 

I know now that many programs use UIA now, so it’s less important, but the ability to manipulate the mouse via the keyboard, is still much needed when using custom apps.

 

All the best


Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 18 February 2019 17:00
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

In the following response, I shall give desktop layout commands.  I don't use the laptop layout and don't know those commands for what we are discussing.

 

There aren't specifically mouse movement keys such as in JAWS.  Read the review section of the manual or the relevant parts.  5.5 is a relevant section.  I'm not sure if there are any others.  You will see such commands as num[pad 9, move to next line, numpad 8, read current line, numpad 7 move to and read previous line.  These are review keys and don't affect the application, they review the screen.  I'm talking about what they do in screen review mode.  They have similar functions when in object navigation but they apply to the object that has focus.

 

To move the mouse to the review position, use the command numpad insert numpad slash.  To left click the mouse, use numpad slash. To right click, use numpad Times, which I believe is also the asterisk.  It's immediately to the right of numpad slash.  

 

If you can't find how to do something in NVDA, it is not good methodology or procedure to assume that it can't be done.  Asking here may provide information about how to do it or of an add-on that does.

 

Gene  

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Monday, February 18, 2019 4:47 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Hello Jean,

 

So what are the mouse movement keys via the keyboard then?  I’m sorry I can’t find them.

 

Thanks.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 18 February 2019 08:47
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

You can move the mouse with the keyboard now.  You can't move it as precisely.  I don't have an opinion about whether the Golden Cursor features should be incorporated into the source code.  But your implication that the mouse can't be moved without the Golden Cursor is not correct.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Monday, February 18, 2019 2:27 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Jean,

 

I think the whole Golden Cursor thing should be in NVDA to be honest.  The ability to move the mouse using the keyboard has been in screen readers, since the invention of Windows.

 

Supernova has it, System Access has it, JAWS has it, Window-Eyes was best at it, and so on.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 17 February 2019 20:08
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

The search feature should, I think, be in NVDA, not in the Golden Cursor. This is important funcionality and is too important to depend on a user downloading an add-on to have it available.

 

Gene 

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 1:58 PM

Subject: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Hi,

 

In my efforts to find out if Golden Cursor is as good as the mouse with JAWS, I’d say not quite.  Let me explain.

 

I just downloaded it, and there seems to be no way to search for a string of text within GC and have the mouse land on that text, so you can just click it, without routing, saving positions, etc.

 

Could this possibly be added?  A Mouse Search in NVDA?  I use Search in JAWS cursor all the time, and it moves the mouse to where I want it.

 

Or am I really stupid and missing it?

 

Someone suggested that GC does more than the JAWS cursor, but I don’t really see that.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

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