Re: Golden Cursor question


Steve Nutt
 

Hi Travis,

 

I don’t think Jean either interacts with sighted people and computers, or he doesn’t know what interpreting means.  One of the two.

 

All the best


Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Travis Siegel
Sent: 21 February 2019 17:26
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

What are you talking about in saying my comments aren't precise?

I said exactly what I meant, if that isn't precise enough for you, then go bother someone else with trivial matters.  If you can't get enough context from my comments to make intelligent responses, then don't respond, simple as that.

On 2/21/2019 11:44 AM, Gene wrote:

Expanding abbreviations is the problem of the synthesizer, not the screen-reader.  And what do you mean by your other comments?  they are not precise nor do they take context into account.  Do you use all punctuation all the time?  Do you want to hear every punctuation mark announced?  I doubt it.  Right there, you are violating your first statement of what a screen-reader should do. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2019 10:38 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

It's always been my opinion that it's a screen reader's job to read the screen, it's my job to interpret what the screen reader tells me is there.  That means, if there's a graphic, the screen reader should tell me it's there, if there's an icon, the screen reader should tell me it's there.  The screen reader should read exactly what's there, and nothing else.  I can't tell you how many hours of productivity time I've lost from stupid little things like my screen reader telling me something was on the screen, when it wasn't actually there.  For example, the voiceover screen reader (and I think NVDA does as well) says volume, regardless of whether the entire word is there or not.  You know, sometimes, vol by itself does not mean volume.  This is of course a minor example of the screen reader saying something that isn't there, but you get the idea.  If the screen says v o l, then the screen reader should say v o l, not volume.  I understand that most folks do not agree with me on this, but it irks the hell out of me when screen readers say things that aren't there, especially when trying to find sorted file lists, One time I had magazine issues that were named differently from the publisher, depending on what year it was published.  I spent a good 10 minutes once trying to figure out why volume 2 issue 1 was out of order, and it turns out the reason was because the screen reader was reading vol as volume, but the publisher didn't spell out volume, only put the 3 letters vol, which changed the sorting order of that particular issue, since the rest of them had volume actually spelled out.  Odd, but there it is.  That was 10 minutes that didn't need to be wasted, because if the screen reader had just read what was on the screen, it would have been immediately apparent what the problem was, and it could have been easily corrected.

This is the kind of thing I mean when I say I've lost hours of productivity due to stupid little things that the screen reader read that didn't exist.

Although I reported it, and it (eventually) got fixed, at one point, when beta testing voiceover on the mac, the screen reader said the dinosaur Stegosaurus as Saint Ego Soars.  Again, a case of not reading what's on the screen, and one that should not have even occurred based on pronunciation rules built in to the screen reader, but these are the kinds of things that happen when your screen readers try to interpret things for you.  I don't like it, and I think it's a waste of time.  It wastes the user's time, and it wastes the developer's time, because they have to put in all the rules that create the speaking rules.  Just leave it alone, and let the damned thing read what's present, let me interpret what it all means.

On 2/20/2019 7:44 AM, Gene wrote:

That's two different questions.  changing the format may be a problem at times, when dealing with sighted people as you say.  but the solution isn't to have the screen-reader not do what it does.  the solution is to teach blind people to find what they are looking for on the page without being reliant on sighted people's instructions.  for example, if the sighted person tells the person that add to cart is in the middle of the page, a little up from the center, an efficient way for a blind person to find it is to disregard the description.  Go to the top of the page and use the screen-reader's find command to search for add to cart or for cart or whatever you want that is expected to find the thing efficiently if the search can be done efficiently.

 

I may find it interesting when a wwell-intentioned sighted person tells me where he/she sees something on the screen.  I don't use the description to find the item.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2019 6:27 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

I disagree.  Changing the layout is interpreting of course it is.  It’s saying well here’s the info, in the format we think is right, not in the visual format.

 

Whether you like it or not, that is interpreting and becomes sometimes, a problem when interacting with sighted people.

 

All the best


Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 20 February 2019 10:13
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Changing the layout isn't interpreting.  Interpreting is when you do something like describe something in the screen-reader's own words.  But this doesn't change what is read.  It is changing the layout to make reading logical for blind people.  There is nothing wrong with this.  it has been done with great success since MSAA was introduced in the late Nineties for reading web pages efficiently.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2019 2:57 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Of course they are interpreting.  It reads the screen, but UIA changes the perceived layout of the screen.

 

All the best


Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 19 February 2019 18:38
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

What you are complaining about isn't screen interpreting.  it is a decision about what information is included and how you can move through it.  You may disagree with such decisions, but they aren't screen interpreting. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2019 12:30 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Hi,

 

OK, incorrect in so much that you can move the mouse, but only by routing it.

 

Window-Eyes could not only move by clip, but by graphic as well, this is really powerful.

 

If you told me to click on the third graphic from the top left on the screen, only Window-Eyes would allow me to do this.

 

Whatever happened to screen reading, as opposed to screen interpreting?  Don’t even get me started.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 19 February 2019 16:33
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

I know that Window-eyes and JAWS have ways of moving the mouse such as by pixels and in the case of Window-eyes, in some other way that I don't recall now, sort of by structure.  I remembered the term while reviewing my message.  it is by clip, as Window-eyes called it.  But both also allow for moving the mouse around the screen as you do in NVDA.  The difference is that in NVDA, you move the review position, then route the mouse to where you stop the review navigator. 

 

In JAWS, you could move the mouse to the word click.  In NVDA, you would move the review navigator to the word click, then route the mouse.  the mouse ends up in the same place.  I'm simply saying that your statement that the mouse can't be moved from the keyboard in NVDA is factually, not a matter of opinion, not correct.  I am not disagreeing that JAWS and
Window-eyes allow for different, more precise movements.  I'm also not arguing that the Golden Cursor add-on is necessary in NVDA to move the mouse in finer and more varied ways.  But your statement is factually incorrect. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2019 9:56 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Hi Jean,

 

But again, although you answered my question, it just proves to me that I couldn’t find what I wanted, because it is not there, that is moving the mouse using the keyboard.  This is there, if you download Golden Cursor, but I’ve had this in Window-Eyes for years, so I couldn’t imagine managing without it now.  It even exists in JAWS.  Even mouse search doesn’t currently exist in NVDA, so to me, this isn’t screen reading at its best at the moment.  That’s only to me, remember, just one guy who is an advanced screen reader user, and in that respect, as I’ve always said, NVDA, isn’t there yet.  I wish it would be.

 

Another example of this problem is the Izotope plug in installer.  NVDA doesn’t see the screen at all, nothing is read, so you have to OCR it.  When I install with JAWS, it sees the screen, and I can move the mouse to the Next button, but I can’t click it by tabbing nor object naving to it, because NVDA simply doesn’t see the screen, unless I OCR it.  JAWS sees it out of the box.  This is why I still maintain that video hooking is a necessary evil.

 

I know now that many programs use UIA now, so it’s less important, but the ability to manipulate the mouse via the keyboard, is still much needed when using custom apps.

 

All the best


Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 18 February 2019 17:00
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

In the following response, I shall give desktop layout commands.  I don't use the laptop layout and don't know those commands for what we are discussing.

 

There aren't specifically mouse movement keys such as in JAWS.  Read the review section of the manual or the relevant parts.  5.5 is a relevant section.  I'm not sure if there are any others.  You will see such commands as num[pad 9, move to next line, numpad 8, read current line, numpad 7 move to and read previous line.  These are review keys and don't affect the application, they review the screen.  I'm talking about what they do in screen review mode.  They have similar functions when in object navigation but they apply to the object that has focus.

 

To move the mouse to the review position, use the command numpad insert numpad slash.  To left click the mouse, use numpad slash. To right click, use numpad Times, which I believe is also the asterisk.  It's immediately to the right of numpad slash.  

 

If you can't find how to do something in NVDA, it is not good methodology or procedure to assume that it can't be done.  Asking here may provide information about how to do it or of an add-on that does.

 

Gene  

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Monday, February 18, 2019 4:47 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Hello Jean,

 

So what are the mouse movement keys via the keyboard then?  I’m sorry I can’t find them.

 

Thanks.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 18 February 2019 08:47
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

You can move the mouse with the keyboard now.  You can't move it as precisely.  I don't have an opinion about whether the Golden Cursor features should be incorporated into the source code.  But your implication that the mouse can't be moved without the Golden Cursor is not correct.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Monday, February 18, 2019 2:27 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Jean,

 

I think the whole Golden Cursor thing should be in NVDA to be honest.  The ability to move the mouse using the keyboard has been in screen readers, since the invention of Windows.

 

Supernova has it, System Access has it, JAWS has it, Window-Eyes was best at it, and so on.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 17 February 2019 20:08
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

The search feature should, I think, be in NVDA, not in the Golden Cursor. This is important funcionality and is too important to depend on a user downloading an add-on to have it available.

 

Gene 

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 1:58 PM

Subject: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Hi,

 

In my efforts to find out if Golden Cursor is as good as the mouse with JAWS, I’d say not quite.  Let me explain.

 

I just downloaded it, and there seems to be no way to search for a string of text within GC and have the mouse land on that text, so you can just click it, without routing, saving positions, etc.

 

Could this possibly be added?  A Mouse Search in NVDA?  I use Search in JAWS cursor all the time, and it moves the mouse to where I want it.

 

Or am I really stupid and missing it?

 

Someone suggested that GC does more than the JAWS cursor, but I don’t really see that.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

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