locked Re: Lags With Notepad++


Gene
 

I didn't say that people shouldn't use Windows 10.  I didn't say the interface is a problem.  I seriously question the advisability of people upgrading to Windows 10 from Windows 7 or 8 if they are satisfied with them for technical reasons I've given 
 
You point out one problem with Excel and somehow criticize me for taking awhile to say that it is an accessibility problem.  Once the discussion established that it was, I said it was.  I don't use Excel and couldn't test myself.  That has nothing to do with ribbons per se.  It is one accessibility problem with one feature on one program.  Discourage people from learning things?  The whole reason I vigorously disagree with those who talk about how difficult ribbons are to use ist to encourage people to learn new things.
 
And I'm sure I didn't attack you at any time during our discussion, just as I am not now.  I do disagree vigorously with people who say, ribbons are terrible, or such general statements.  Why?  Because I want to encourage people to learn things.
 
My Windows 10 position has nothing to do with any general disposition about wanting or not wanting people to learn new things.  It is because I believe there are problems with the way Microsoft administers Windows 10, two upgrades a year when I don't think it can adequately test two upgrades a year before release to avoid problems that may be serious.  Or if it can, it hasn't been doing so properly.  And if you look at technology articles, many writers are unhappy with the Windows 10 upgrades.
 
And I never say to people, don't buy a new computer with Windows 10 already on it.  I'm talking solely about upgrading machines that people are satisfied with.
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2019 7:24 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Lags With Notepad++

Well, this rant--long as usual--and very legalistic sounding--sounds like some of the arguments we are getting out of Washington these days.  My lack of advancement is justified but yours isn't!

Apparently you forget the go round we had over ribbons where I pointed out how an aspect of Excel that was very easy to do using the old menus lasted for about 3 days with over 20 exchanges.  Long story short, you finally had to admit that it was an accessibility issue in Excel that wasn't existing in the old menus system.  I could have further deconstructed your arguments back then a couple of years ago, but I gave up after 3 days. 

You come on at times like a defense lawyer arguing a case in court rather than an adviser of people who are on a list--some of them newbies who are afraid (as I was once) to try new things.



On 7/13/2019 5:56 AM, Gene wrote:
Show me in the archives where I viciously attack anyone.  I do not.  but I strongly object to people who make unqualified statements such as ribbons are terrible, ribbons are very hard to use, etc.  That's because I know, from experience, that ribbons only require an understanding of how they are laid out but that, in essence, they are similar to menus except that you tab through a ribbon instead of down arrowing or you shift tab instead of up arrowing.  There are other things to learn but that is the essence of ribbons compared to menus.  My strong response, and I don't attack people personally, I strongly disagree with what and how they say what they say about ribbons, is because I strongly object to people being discouraged from learning by wildly overgeneralized statements about a completely accessible interface that a lot of people are afraid of because they haven't received proper instruction and because they have heard so many negative comments about from others who haven't received proper instruction.  And once they successfully use ribbons, they may become more confident computer users, more willing to try new things, because they see how the only thing they had to fear in this case was fear itself, as was famously said.
 
If I were talking with someone off list, I wouldn't write in the same strong way about criticism of ribbons because the comments of the person wouldn't be on a list and wouldn't possibly be discouraging many people from learning.  If you can find instances where I have viciously attacked people, I'll apologize. And because I have strong feelings about this, I created a tutorial teaching use of ribbons which I have shared here more than once when the topic has come up,. 
 
What does Windows 10- have to do with any of this?  I don't make up widespread stories about full upgrades that have caused serious problems for some users, to the extent that Microsoft stopped releasing an update perhaps about a year ago, for a month or more of further corrections and testing.  And there have been two such bad upgrades in the last eighteen months.  I don't think the last one was nearly as bad but Microsoft has a lot of confidence to regain among users.  While the number of people asking about problems after a Windows 10 upgrade is not large, even so, there are enough to indicate that problems occur more often than in earlier versions of Windows, where service packs were released far more infrequently and people didn't have to spend perhaps forty-five minutes, perhaps an hour, upgrading Windows twice a year. 
 
What does any of this have to do with strongly responding to someone who once, or repeatedly states how terrible ribbons are, as though it is a matter of fact? 
 
And I am not critical of people who upgrade to Windows 10.  I simply think that, with what I have discussed, the rush to upgrade instead of waiting to near the end of support is questionable for people who don't want to use specific new features or apps in Windows 10 and who want as reliable and stable an operating system as possible.  If people are curious or experimenters or want new features, fine.  If someone is buying a new computer, that will come with Windows 10. I am not personally criticial on a personal level.  But I think that users should seriously consider the advisability of upgrading a system they currently own far in advance of support ending for Windows 7.  and it also depends on how satisfied they are with Windows 8 as well, where support will continue longer.  It is my impression that Windows 10 is harder for screen-reader developers to stay on top of, thus taking resources that would have been used for other things before Windows 10 and diverting them into keeping things as accessible as possible, thus possibly slowing work on other projects that would benefit blind computer users. 
 
I have never objected to the Windows 10 interface nor objected to people upgrading on those grounds.  I haven't used Windows 10.  As far as I can tell, not having direct experience of using it, the interface itself is similar to Windows 7.  As far as I can tell, working with apps, not applications, is somewhat different but the actual interface of Windows is similar and if applications, not apps are used, my impression is that there isn't much learning to do.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, July 12, 2019 11:22 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Lags With Notepad++

Hi Gene,

It's kind of funny how you at times viciously attack people who are uncomfortable with use of the ribbon, but are so ambivalent--some say---critical of those who wish to upgrade to Windows 10. 

Unlike many people, I do not have any of the major issues when using
Windows 10.  I know there were issues with 1803, but I never experienced them. 

Getting used to the interface of Windows 10 is much easier than the Windows 8 original version which had only the use of the grid instead of the somewhat standard search/start menu system. 

Use of the ribbons is much more of an issue--particularly if you use a lot of Word/Excel/Access features.  Yet, I muddle through and am able to get by--however so clumsily.

By comparison, the interface of Windows 10 for normal operation is a cake walk when compared to going into what would be in the old pre-ribbon days sub menus of sub menus. 

These are facts--experienced not only by blind people but also by sighted people as well.  This is so much so that there are ribbon disabler programs coming up the ying yan which are obviously not intended solely for the  blind.



On 7/12/2019 2:10 PM, Gene wrote:
This message discusses why you will have to upgrade at some point and why I object to Windows 10 strongly.  It also discusses how my objection is related to screen-reader development.  In my opinion, Windows 10 makes screen-reader developers waste a significant amount of time and resources constantly changing as Microsoft makes changes that affect accessibility.
 
At some point, you will have little choice.  Increasingly fewer programs will be supported in XP.  Your old browsers will work with fewer and fewer sites.  If you need something new like a printer, no new printers or scanners will have XP compatible drivers.  When XP will become so unusable that you will be forced to make a change, I don't know. 
 
My main objection to Windows 10 is that there are two full upgrades per year.  Microsoft has demonstrated that it can't properly test two major upgrades and it is a major inconvenience to upgrade, even if there ar no problems.  Before Windows 10, there were service packs spread out, perhaps one every two or three years, and in the case of Windows 7, there was only one.  I very much object to Microsoft imposing this level of inconvenience and potential problems on users.  And, from the standpoint of NVDA, developers have to constantly make changes to accommodate the constant and unending changes in Windows 10 that affect accessibility.  Lee releases one release after another of the Windows Essential app, for example.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, July 12, 2019 12:56 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Lags With Notepad++

Hi Zara,

I also d not like change.  I held onto my XP system for years after it
expired.  But when I eventually got up enough nerve to upgrade, I did it
big time and I have no issues.  If your issues are financial, that's
another item entirely.  But if it is simply a fear of the unknown, rest
assured that Windows 10 is no big deal.  I bet you would get used to it
in a few days at worst.



On 7/12/2019 12:21 PM, zahra wrote:
> i never use ten, even if someone gives me milions of dollars!
>
> On 7/12/19, Arlene <nedster66@...> wrote:
>> Hey I know you like xp. Yes it works for you. If you keep on using it you
>> are asking for trouble. I had to leave win 7 for that reason! Now I;m on ten
>> I don’t like change any better then some blind folk. But like it or not I
>> had to change. Both my xp and 7 computers died.so I had no choice.
>>
>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>>
>> From: zahra
>> Sent: July 12, 2019 1:11 AM
>> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>> Subject: Re: [nvda] Lags With Notepad++
>>
>> xp is the best operating system for me forever and i dont like newer
>> versions of windows, i hate windows ten and cant use another operating
>> systems!
>>
>> On 7/12/19, Perry Simm via Groups.Io
>> <perry.simm@...> wrote:
>>> Hi!
>>>
>>> On Friday, July 12, 2019 4:49 AM, zahra <nasrinkhaksar3@...> wrote:
>>>
>>>> notepad++ version 7.7 x86 on windows xp, works perfectly with my
>>>> favorite version of nvda, (nvda 2017.2).
>>> Goodness! Please be aware that when you run XP and use the internet in
>>> any
>>> way, not only are you asking for trouble but actively begging for it.
>>> Whatever reasons you may be having, they are most likely invalid.
>>> Cheers Perry
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> By God,
>> were I given all the seven heavens
>> with all they contain
>> in order that
>> I may disobey God
>> by depriving an ant
>> from the husk of a grain of barley,
>> I would not do it.
>> imam ali
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"




-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

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