I didn't say that people shouldn't use Windows
10. I didn't say the interface is a problem. I seriously question
the advisability of people upgrading to Windows 10 from Windows 7 or 8 if they
are satisfied with them for technical reasons I've given
You point out one problem with Excel and somehow
criticize me for taking awhile to say that it is an accessibility problem.
Once the discussion established that it was, I said it was. I don't use
Excel and couldn't test myself. That has nothing to do with ribbons per
se. It is one accessibility problem with one feature on one program.
Discourage people from learning things? The whole reason I vigorously
disagree with those who talk about how difficult ribbons are to use ist to
encourage people to learn new things.
And I'm sure I didn't attack you at any time during
our discussion, just as I am not now. I do disagree vigorously with people
who say, ribbons are terrible, or such general statements. Why?
Because I want to encourage people to learn things.
My Windows 10 position has nothing to do with any
general disposition about wanting or not wanting people to learn new
things. It is because I believe there are problems with the way Microsoft
administers Windows 10, two upgrades a year when I don't think it can adequately
test two upgrades a year before release to avoid problems that may be
serious. Or if it can, it hasn't been doing so properly. And if you
look at technology articles, many writers are unhappy with the Windows 10
upgrades.
And I never say to people, don't buy a new computer
with Windows 10 already on it. I'm talking solely about upgrading machines
that people are satisfied with.
Gene
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2019 7:24 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Lags With Notepad++
Well, this rant--long as usual--and very legalistic
sounding--sounds like some of the arguments we are getting out of Washington
these days. My lack of advancement is justified but yours
isn't! Apparently you forget the go round we had over ribbons where I
pointed out how an aspect of Excel that was very easy to do using the old menus
lasted for about 3 days with over 20 exchanges. Long story short, you
finally had to admit that it was an accessibility issue in Excel that wasn't
existing in the old menus system. I could have further deconstructed your
arguments back then a couple of years ago, but I gave up after 3 days.
You come on at times like a defense lawyer arguing a case in court
rather than an adviser of people who are on a list--some of them newbies who are
afraid (as I was once) to try new things.
On 7/13/2019 5:56 AM, Gene wrote:
Show me in the archives where I viciously attack anyone. I do
not. but I strongly object to people who make unqualified statements
such as ribbons are terrible, ribbons are very hard to use, etc. That's
because I know, from experience, that ribbons only require an understanding of
how they are laid out but that, in essence, they are similar to menus except
that you tab through a ribbon instead of down arrowing or you shift tab
instead of up arrowing. There are other things to learn but that is the
essence of ribbons compared to menus. My strong response, and I don't
attack people personally, I strongly disagree with what and how they say what
they say about ribbons, is because I strongly object to people being
discouraged from learning by wildly overgeneralized statements about a
completely accessible interface that a lot of people are afraid of because
they haven't received proper instruction and because they have heard so many
negative comments about from others who haven't received proper
instruction. And once they successfully use ribbons, they may become
more confident computer users, more willing to try new things, because they
see how the only thing they had to fear in this case was fear itself, as was
famously said.
If I were talking with someone off list, I wouldn't write in the same
strong way about criticism of ribbons because the comments of the person
wouldn't be on a list and wouldn't possibly be discouraging many people from
learning. If you can find instances where I have viciously attacked
people, I'll apologize. And because I have strong feelings about this, I
created a tutorial teaching use of ribbons which I have shared here more than
once when the topic has come up,.
What does Windows 10- have to do with any of this? I don't make up
widespread stories about full upgrades that have caused serious problems for
some users, to the extent that Microsoft stopped releasing an update perhaps
about a year ago, for a month or more of further corrections and
testing. And there have been two such bad upgrades in the last eighteen
months. I don't think the last one was nearly as bad but Microsoft has a
lot of confidence to regain among users. While the number of people
asking about problems after a Windows 10 upgrade is not large, even so, there
are enough to indicate that problems occur more often than in earlier versions
of Windows, where service packs were released far more infrequently and people
didn't have to spend perhaps forty-five minutes, perhaps an hour, upgrading
Windows twice a year.
What does any of this have to do with strongly responding to someone who
once, or repeatedly states how terrible ribbons are, as though it is a matter
of fact?
And I am not critical of people who upgrade to Windows 10. I simply
think that, with what I have discussed, the rush to upgrade instead of waiting
to near the end of support is questionable for people who don't want to use
specific new features or apps in Windows 10 and who want as reliable and
stable an operating system as possible. If people are curious or
experimenters or want new features, fine. If someone is buying a new
computer, that will come with Windows 10. I am not personally criticial
on a personal level. But I think that users should seriously consider
the advisability of upgrading a system they currently own far in advance of
support ending for Windows 7. and it also depends on how satisfied they
are with Windows 8 as well, where support will continue longer. It is my
impression that Windows 10 is harder for screen-reader developers to stay
on top of, thus taking resources that would have been used for other things
before Windows 10 and diverting them into keeping things as accessible as
possible, thus possibly slowing work on other projects that would benefit
blind computer users.
I have never objected to the Windows 10 interface nor objected to people
upgrading on those grounds. I haven't used Windows 10. As far as I
can tell, not having direct experience of using it, the interface itself is
similar to Windows 7. As far as I can tell, working with apps, not
applications, is somewhat different but the actual interface of Windows is
similar and if applications, not apps are used, my impression is that there
isn't much learning to do.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, July 12, 2019 11:22 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Lags With Notepad++
Hi Gene,
It's kind of funny how you at times viciously
attack people who are uncomfortable with use of the ribbon, but are so
ambivalent--some say---critical of those who wish to upgrade to Windows
10.
Unlike many people, I do not have any of the major issues
when using
Windows 10. I know there were issues with 1803, but I
never experienced them.
Getting used to the interface of Windows
10 is much easier than the Windows 8 original version which had only the use
of the grid instead of the somewhat standard search/start menu system.
Use of the ribbons is much more of an issue--particularly if you use a
lot of Word/Excel/Access features. Yet, I muddle through and am able to
get by--however so clumsily.
By comparison, the interface of Windows 10
for normal operation is a cake walk when compared to going into what would be
in the old pre-ribbon days sub menus of sub menus.
These are
facts--experienced not only by blind people but also by sighted people as
well. This is so much so that there are ribbon disabler programs coming
up the ying yan which are obviously not intended solely for the
blind.
On 7/12/2019 2:10 PM, Gene wrote:
This message discusses why you will have to upgrade at some point and
why I object to Windows 10 strongly. It also discusses how my
objection is related to screen-reader development. In my opinion,
Windows 10 makes screen-reader developers waste a significant amount of time
and resources constantly changing as Microsoft makes changes that affect
accessibility.
At some point, you will have little choice. Increasingly fewer
programs will be supported in XP. Your old browsers will work with
fewer and fewer sites. If you need something new like a printer, no
new printers or scanners will have XP compatible drivers. When XP will
become so unusable that you will be forced to make a change, I don't
know.
My main objection to Windows 10 is that there are two full upgrades per
year. Microsoft has demonstrated that it can't properly test two major
upgrades and it is a major inconvenience to upgrade, even if there ar no
problems. Before Windows 10, there were service packs spread out,
perhaps one every two or three years, and in the case of Windows 7, there
was only one. I very much object to Microsoft imposing this level of
inconvenience and potential problems on users. And, from the
standpoint of NVDA, developers have to constantly make changes to
accommodate the constant and unending changes in Windows 10 that affect
accessibility. Lee releases one release after another of the Windows
Essential app, for example.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, July 12, 2019 12:56 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Lags With Notepad++
Hi Zara,
I also d not like change. I held onto
my XP system for years after it
expired. But when I eventually got
up enough nerve to upgrade, I did it
big time and I have no
issues. If your issues are financial, that's
another item
entirely. But if it is simply a fear of the unknown, rest
assured
that Windows 10 is no big deal. I bet you would get used to it
in
a few days at worst.
On 7/12/2019 12:21 PM, zahra
wrote:
> i never use ten, even if someone gives me milions of
dollars!
>
> On 7/12/19, Arlene <nedster66@...> wrote:
>> Hey I
know you like xp. Yes it works for you. If you keep on using it
you
>> are asking for trouble. I had to leave win 7 for that
reason! Now I;m on ten
>> I don’t like change any better then some
blind folk. But like it or not I
>> had to change. Both my xp and 7
computers died.so I had no choice.
>>
>> Sent from Mail
for Windows 10
>>
>> From: zahra
>> Sent: July
12, 2019 1:11 AM
>> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>> Subject: Re:
[nvda] Lags With Notepad++
>>
>> xp is the best operating
system for me forever and i dont like newer
>> versions of windows,
i hate windows ten and cant use another operating
>>
systems!
>>
>> On 7/12/19, Perry Simm via
Groups.Io
>> <perry.simm@...>
wrote:
>>> Hi!
>>>
>>> On Friday, July
12, 2019 4:49 AM, zahra <nasrinkhaksar3@...>
wrote:
>>>
>>>> notepad++ version 7.7 x86 on
windows xp, works perfectly with my
>>>> favorite version of
nvda, (nvda 2017.2).
>>> Goodness! Please be aware that when you
run XP and use the internet in
>>> any
>>> way, not
only are you asking for trouble but actively begging for it.
>>>
Whatever reasons you may be having, they are most likely
invalid.
>>> Cheers
Perry
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
--
>> By God,
>> were I given all the seven
heavens
>> with all they contain
>> in order
that
>> I may disobey God
>> by depriving an
ant
>> from the husk of a grain of barley,
>> I would not
do it.
>> imam
ali
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are
You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana
boat!"
--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!" --
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"
|
