-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Andy B.
Sent: August-25-19 4:10 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA in Emploandenp

A few things here.

1. NVDA has been the most standards compliant for years, at least that you
know of... Do you have documentation that NVDA is the most standards
compliant Windows-based screen reader? I wouldn't call NVDA standards
compliant when the only effective email client NVDA works with is the
web-based version of Gmail. When TB sometimes lags for hours, Windows 10
Mail doesn't read well and you have to make use of notepad to type email,
and NVDA+Outlook results in the error bell going off like the closing bell
on Wallstreet, it doesn't sound very compliant. There are truck loads of
other issues, but I digress.
2. Software developers are increasingly required to create standards
compliant software. Do you have evidence from the U.S. Supreme court or
other international governing body that standards compliant software is an
absolute must? If so, what are those standards and penalties for violating
the standards? This sounds more like an advocacy problem than an NVDA/JAWS
problem. Each platform seems to have its own set of standards. UIA for
Microsoft, IAccessible and IAccessible2 for browsers and most desktop
software, atspi for Linux systems, and who knows what for MAC? In fact,
Windows has implemented UIA since 2016, but NVDA still uses IA2 for most
desktop/application access, and if they don't, they hide it in their APIs.
3. It is foolish to claim open source is not safe in the workplace. You seem
to be taking this point from an NVDA users perspective. If you take it from
the typical IT manager's perspective, the light turns in a different
direction. Assuming the IT department isn't familiar with Python, IA2, UIA,
and focused objects, scripting in Python becomes a problem. Besides, most AT
software and hardware gains popularity through a good marketing plan. NVDA
doesn't seem to have a good marketing plan, else they would have become
direct competitor's with JAWS. In any case, most IT managers have no clue
about AT and how it works. Thus, they will go with the product most
advertised and sought after in the accessibility space.
4. Surprising your disability support person even knew the difference
between JAWS and NVDA. Most schools never heard of them, or if they have,
know nothing about what they do or how they work.
5. The point of AT software and hardware is to gain access to, and use the
accessibility framework implemented in the operating system. Its other job
is to compensate for a lack in such accessibility framework. Hence, why JAWS
works better in VS code and Visual Studio better than NVDA, especially with
autocomplete.

Andy Borka
Accessibility Engineer

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of erik burggraaf
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 2:27 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA in Emploandenp

Hi Kelby
On August 25, 2019 7:39:31 AM "kelby carlson" <kelbycarlson@...>
wrote:


I hope this isn't too off-topic. I recently heard an argument that NVDA is
bad for blind prospect's in employment because it is the "dumbed down"
solution.

That sounds like the blather of some one who recommended commercial screen
readers for 20 years and is now having their apple cart upset. I've seen
this time and time again and will keep seeing it as long as accessibility is
a thing. When some one has to use dirision rather than fact to steer you
away from one product and ttowards another, an alarm bell should shreek in
your head.

The person arguing this elaborated, saying that NVDA is not
customizable/flexible enough (too chatty"),

This is a matter of personal preference, but I can make NVDA do the common
things such as punctuation level that I sometimes need to configure.

that it was not able to be scripted as easily,

Now, I have heard argued the other point that NVDA is easier to scrypt than
jaws and I subscribe to this view. Consider, there are many more python
programmers in the world than jaws scripters. A company can script NVDA in
house using their own IT department. Otherwise, the company needs to
outsource jaws scripting to an access technology professional. The prices I
have seen quoted range from $500 per hour to $150 per line.
it didn't work well with as much proprietary software,

An argument that shows no understanding of access technology trends. It is
no longer the purview of a screen reader to work with particular software.
In the current and emerging model, an operating system creates accessibility
API's that comply with recognized standards. Screen readers provide access
using the API's and standards. Software manufacturers are increasingly
legally and socially obligated to comply with accessibility standards and
implement API's and ffeatures for accessibility provided by the system.
Employers are increasingly legally and socially obligated to procure
technology hardware and software that complies with accessibility standards
so that it can work with access technologies. NVDA has been considered the
most standards compliant screen rreader for several years as far as I know,.

and that it wouldn't be allowed on secure environments due to being open
source.

Extrordinarily foolish. If open source software is insecure, why is it
powering the commercial internet? If commercial software is inherantly
secure, why do we need to spend billians of dollars protecting windows
against viruses? NVD'S licencing makes it time and cost efficient to
install across large networks such as call centre floors holding thousands
of computer workstations. If your corporate network is secure, than running
NVDA can't possibly be less secure than running say adobe reader, which is
a known constantly volnerable commercial product.

So my question is this: how many people here use NVDA for work,

I do. I'm a compuuter programming student working as a web application
developer for wholenote media in Toronto. I've experienced some of the
things members are saying about programming tools such as long delays using
intelisense. Not 30 seconds but finger-chompingly long lag. This is the
fault of software developers such as Microsoft for not complying with
standards or even properly implementing their own API's. At least, if you
want me to consider that there might be something in NVDA causing severe lag
in microsoft intelisense, how about giving us full access to xaml designer,
rad tools, and unit testing among other things. If ms could say their
product was up to snuff, then I'd consider that there's an ineficiency in
NVDA. Otherwise, autocomplete works well for me in browsers and in VSCode
though I haven't tried in notepadplusplus with the add on.
We can talk about it when visual studio becomes truly viable for
accessibility.

and is there a notable dilerence in level of usability with JAWS?

I couldn't speak to this. I haven't used jaws since the days of 4.5. I
have provided some computer training on jaws systems though and have
experienced significant frustration using google chrome, excel 2016, windows
10 mail, and other things. In helping jaws users the last year or so, I've
seen an issue where displaying web content poops out. Jaws scripts still
have a bent for corrupting themselves and needing to be re-installed. And
they still haven't figured out how to deal with issues such as laptops
switching video cards for various power profiles and ditching the
authorization.

I was at the college last week getting set up for my fall semester classes.
When I sat down with my access technologist, a nondisabled college
employee, he imediately expressed frustration to me over use of jaws in the
college. He told me that in general nvda was working much better on college
systems than jaws, nvda is superior at the maths I have to do this semester
compared to jaws, and he thought for it's effectiveness, jaws was way over
priced. This is a complete turnaround from 2.5 years ago when I was
registering for courses. At that time, jaws was everything according to
this guy. He was extremely skeptical of NVDA and only implemented it for me
because I insisted. He was also dead set against mac and has had to rethink
that position too. :-)

I've told the story many times about going into the interview at the call
centre back in 16. It looked like they were gung hoe to hire me. Their IT
guy that I was working with said, "thank god you really wanted NVDA. Jaws
won't even load up on our systems for testing." He also told me they would
script NVDA in house using their python programmers. I didn't get hired,
but I don't think it had anything to do with equipment and resources.

Hope this helps,