Vincent Le Goff <vincent.legoff.srs@...>
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To narrow it down to a very specific feature mentioned here:
keyboard shortcuts in web apps. As was mentioned in a previous
post, the list of available shortcuts in Gmail isn't short. Lots
can be done through the keyboard. Going through the list of
messages using the up/down arrow keys is definitely something most
people will expect. Opening the message when pressing Enter is
another. But here's the catch: pressing X to select a message?
Why on earth... the thing is, pressing space would have felt more
natural to most of us, but intercepting the space key is not that
portable on web applications. Pressing left arrow to open the
navigation bar is great, but shouldn't alt have been used? And
yet, of course, in a web application, alt is to access the browser
menu bar, not the application's.
In the previous post, lots of web applications were mentioned.
The thing is, not all of them have as good support as Gmail. And
all of them offer different keyboard shortcuts. That's the
problem, I think, or at least, one of the problems: if we have to
bow to web applications and say "well, no point in avoiding them,
let's get on a first-name basis instead", it also means that we'll
need to learn individual application shortcut. Am I suggesting
it's not the case in a desktop application? Yes and no. In a
Desktop application, often what you can do is connected to the
type of element you are on. You know if you are focused on a
list, you might use the arrow keys to browse it. You might use
letters to jump to individual list items. In a web application,
things are a bit more complex, as the connection between "element
type" and "shortcut keys" is pretty loose. ARIA encourages a very
expectation. But still, it's the developer's responsibility to
create keyboard shortcuts that "make sense" to users. And all
developers seem to have different ideas about what makes sense.
So what would be the solution? Having some kind of "shortcut key
standard" might sound a bit extreme and definite. But I believe
something has to be done in regard to "freely used keyboard
shortcut" to try and come up with something more universal.
I'll state it again though: for me, it's only one of the problems
with web applications, but I admit it's (still in my opinion) a
rather important one. How to teach to be proficient with a screen
reader is going to become "how to be proficient with Youtube" or
"how to be proficient with Gmail". Not saying that's not
important, just that a bit of uniformity would be welcome here.
The tools exist too. Regardless, I would find it too bad if new
users were taught to use such and such web application, not how to
use a computer, or a screen reader.
On 10/7/2019 6:43 PM, Nimer Jaber
My thoughts on web apps is that many sites use web apps
these days, and it makes accessing the sites with the web apps
easier in many cases.
In Gmail, users can use up/down arrow keys to traverse the
list of emails. Pressing left arrow places focus in the
navigation bar. Pressing enter opens an email. Pressing n/p
moves between emails in the thread. Pressing x selects the
email in order to do batch operations on emails. Pressing r
replies, pressing a does a reply all.
These methods of navigating are so much faster than doing a
find, using basic HTML, or whatever else users do to navigate
Gmail. If you are unfamiliar with web apps, you would still be
using basic HTML with all of its limitations.
Twitter also has a list of these keyboard shortcuts. As
does Facebook. As did Google Plus. As does Google Play Music.
As does Youtube to some extent.
Whether users choose to use web apps or not is dependent on
them and how likely they are to adapt to a new way of
navigating. I think web apps can improve efficiency, but
knowing to navigate without web apps is important as well.
In the NVDA user guide, under section 6.1, there is an
option of pressing NVDA+shift+space which disables browse mode
commands for a particular webpage and allows the use of browse
mode and web app commands. I typically don't use this, and
often just turn off browse mode, but this really is up to the
user to choose how to best use NVDA.
When I received training it was with
Jaws, and one of the first things I was taught was how
to use the elements list. I taught myself how to use
NVDA when I got home, because there was no one else. I
like to think I am pretty competent with NVDA, though I
am certainly no expert.
don't think blind people should be taught the
elements list until they have thoroughly mastered
the find command and other ways to navigate. Yet a
lot of instructional material teaches the elements
list very early. It is not anything like any
structure on the web page and it separates the user
from the web page and makes teaching looking at
context more difficult.
the student has mastered other ways of working with
web pages, there is plenty of time to teach this
completely artificial structure.
Original Message -----
Monday, October 07, 2019 10:58 AM
[nvda] Are web applications that accessible?
using the find function as well. Particularly on lengthy
with lots of links and/or information. Navigating with
the elements list
would just take too long. This is useful on my RSS
reader web page for
instance. I subscribe to a whole bunch of feeds, over
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