I didn't say you couldn't make an educational assumption about when copying and pasting has taken place, and from what I've experienced, the add-on does do an excellent job of this. What I meant by us not being able to tell, was more that it would involve checking other things to determine whether something has been copied etc, rather than having something exposed from the program or Windows which states definitively "text has been copied" (or how much, or whatever). The fact that the add-on does such a good job of it, could be an argument to put forward a case for adding it to NVDA core. My understanding is that this is basically how other screen readers make the same assumptions about copying and pasting.
Re knowing when an email has been sent. In a way, it is the same thing, because you don't get a message saying it has been sent, but you know it has been sent because the draft email disappears when you give the instruction to send it, and there's no error message. Theoretically, NVDA could be made to give the user a message that the email had been sent. You are right about teaching people to use those cues to know that it has been sent, my point was simply that in my experience, if you haven't got them familiar with the idea beforehand, probably the majority of people, if you just instruct them how to write an email and what button to press to send it, will immediately ask "did it send?" The merits of adding a confirmation to reassure new users, vs only notifying when there is an error could be debated either way, but that's the way it works, and largely, that is the same for copying text.
We could do away with a lot of confirmation messages if we expect people to understand what commands they are giving the computer and the ways they behave. Or, we could add in a lot more confirmation messages if we want to make computers more novice friendly. Is the current system perfect? Probably not. Office, for instance, has changed to automatically saving documents. Once you've saved a document once, in Word 2003, if you write some more text, and then press ALT+F4, Word will ask if you want to save the changes. Word 365 will have already saved your changes and will simply close. Which way is correct? You could argue either way - and in fact, in the Office 365 model currenly, you NEVER get a confirmation your document has been saved. But you can infer it by reading the title bar (for the purpose of the conversation, disregard the bug that currently prevents getting that information) and by the fact that you don't get prompted to save when you try to close Word.
On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 10:48 AM Gene < gsasner@...> wrote:
If an e-mail has been sent, the window closes and
you are automatically placed where you were before you wrote, replied, to, or
forwarded a message. If a message isn't able to be sent, the program opens
an error window which gains focus and you can't miss it. Therefore, a sent
announcement is unnecessary and presents no information that isn't obvious if
you instruct the person in what to look for. Also, learning how to derive
information from context and behavior is important. You won't always have
someone explaining everything in every program and every new
program.
But since you clearly indicate that sighted people
get information when saving an already saved document again, this is a case
where the screen-reader isn't presenting information that would be useful and
that can't conveniently be inferred, as in the case of e-mail.
And the idea that the developers got somehow that
it can't be determined when copying and pasting take place is just plain
wrong. it isn't even debateable, it’s a matter of fact. JAWS knows
when, and System Access knows when. I have specifically seen instances
when copying didn't take place and no erroneous report was made. I don't
know how this myth that the developers persist in believing got started but it
has never been true.
Also, the NVDA add-on tells me accurately when
copying and pasting takes place. The person who wrote the add-on believes
that it doesn't for some reason but I've been using it almost daily since it
came out and I've almost never seen it make a mistake.
I'm making a point of this because, since this can
be accurately determined, it should be incorporated into NVDA and not left to an
add-on, which a lot of people will never know exist.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 4:39 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing
settings
Just chiming in to give the visual perspective:
In Notepad, when pressing control+s:
- If the document has not been saved before, the "Save as" dialog appears
and NVDA reports that.
- If the document has been saved previously, Notepad saves it, and NVDA
does not say anything (unless you have speak command keys on, in which case NVDA
reports "control+s"). Notepad does put an asterisk at the start of the
filename in the title bar when a document has been edited. This disappears
when the document is saved. NVDA does read this asterisk when reading the
title bar.
In Word 365, when pressing control+s:
- If the document has not been saved before, a "Save this file" window
appears and NVDA reports that.
- If the document has been saved previously and "AutoSave" is enabled,
nothing happens and NVDA does not report anything (again unless speak command
keys is on to report "control+s"). With AutoSave on, the document is saved
every time any key is pressed so control+s is not needed.
- If the document has been saved previously and "AutoSave" is not enabled,
the visual response is again subtle. When you open a document, or save it,
the title bar notes "Filename - Saved". Once you change it, the "Saved"
disappears. This gets reinstated when you save it. There is
currently a known issue, I believe with the way Office is exposing the title
bar. See: https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/10150
Similar to announcing cut, copied or pasted, reporting when a document is
saved is not something we would be inclined to add to NVDA UNLESS we could be
sure a document had been saved. I can see the usefulness of the
functionality for some users (it reminds me of how when teaching email, people
often want confirmation that the email has been sent, but many email clients
don't give that). For this reason, I would recommend it might be useful
functionality for an add-on. Possibly Damien Garwood, developer of the
ClipSpeak add-on, might be interested in adding it.
Kind regards
Quentin.
On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 6:14 AM Gene < gsasner@...> wrote:
I checked, and the settings you are discussing
are checked by default. So people should hear this message in
general.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:08 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing
settings
It should be spoken and if it isn't without
changing NVDA settings, the problem should be corrected.
Perhaps this is a problem
using NVDA in Windows 10. The message is spoken in Windows 7.
Gene
----- Original Message
-----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:02 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings
Hi
If it is the message he wants to hear even though it is not spoken when in
note pad and do the alt key + f4 key and get the message do you want to save
which is not spoken.
he can do the following in nvdas settings under simple review cursor make
sure it is checked and make sure simple review mode is checked.
If i want to hear the message when it comes up and says cancel save etc and
it is not spoken out which does not worry me I can use object navigation to
hear it in this case it is the nvda key + 6 on the numeric keypad then use
nvda key + 4 tto go back to where the buttons are and save that way.
Some of the material that is not read out can be accessed with object
navigation like this example.
If a document is already saved I do not need to hear it has been saved as I
know it has been.
Gene nz
On 8/11/2019 7:40 am, Gene wrote:
Window-eyes says that because it is told by the
developers, to say that word when that key combination is pressed. it
isn't analyzing an action by the word processor or text editor to know if a
document was saved. It is just saying the word. That is bad
design and Window-eyes probably says other things because the screen-reader
is programmed to do so just because a certain key combination is
pressed.
Frankly, you are worrying excessively about
almost nothing. As I said, if you issue the save command twice, it is
almost 100 percent certain that the document has been saved. And to
emphasize the point, all this time, you were saving documents and relying on
Window-eyes to tell you that they were saved when actually, all it was doing
was saying the word saved because it was programmed to when you pressed that
combination. But that shows how reliably your documents were being
saved.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 12:23 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing
settings
FYI: In Window-Eyes when pressing the control-s
command it does say “save”. In NVDA the alt-f4 command is helpful. Another
thought that occured to me is to go to the file name in the subdirectory and
check the date and time last saved, especially if i want to continue editing
the document.
Listening for His
shout!
Grant – A.K.A. Grandpa
DOS
-- ![Image NVDA
certified expert]()
--
Quentin
Christensen
Training and Support Manager
-- Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager
|
