Re: NVDA adding and changing settings


Gene
 

I didn't say you said that.  You said and this is a quote, for those with punctuation off, "Similar to announcing cut, copied or pasted, reporting when a document is saved is not something we would be inclined to add to NVDA UNLESS we could be sure a document had been saved." 
 
I see no evidence that copy, cut, and paste, can't be definitely determined.  I don't know what JAWS does or System Access, nor do I know how the add-on monitors to determine when text is copied and pasted.  But the reason the developers didn't want to put a copy and paste announcement in NVDA is because they said you can't tell when those actions are done, which is incorrect.  I'm saying that some how, when this was being considered, the developers believed it couldn't be done and that is stated in the Github (spelling) discussion. 
 
A copy and paste announcement is a different case from an e-mail sent announcement.  In the e-mail case, you get an indication from the program whether the message was sent.  When you copy, there is nothing that happens to confirm that you have done so.  Without such confirmation, very inconvenient things may occur.  Suppose you are copying or moving files.  You issue the copy command, move fifteen selected files, then issue the copy command after you have selected twenty more files.  You then paste in a different folder than the first fifteen.  Imagine the annoyance when you find you have copied the first fifteen files over again.  You then have the annoyance of having to delete them, go back, copy the twenty files over again after you select them again, then paste them again.  The same thing could happen with text.
 
You can't assume that even if you are careful and know you have issued the copy command correctly, that it has worked.  I have exeecuted commands in the past that weren't carried out for some reason and I had to execute the command twice.  Before the add-on, I had inconveniences such as I described above now and then.  They could have been avoided if the add-on had been available or if a copy and paste announcement were built into NVDA.  I consider this an important function and it should be built into the screen-reader. 
 
My experience is that the add-on is accurate, but if others have experiences that it isn't as good as it ideally should be, then that could be worked on. 
 
But aside from my experience that the add-on works well, my experience with JAWS, which I used for years before NVDA existed, is that it is accurate.  I'm saying that the premise on which the function was rejected is incorrect.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 7:32 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

I didn't say you couldn't make an educational assumption about when copying and pasting has taken place, and from what I've experienced, the add-on does do an excellent job of this.  What I meant by us not being able to tell, was more that it would involve checking other things to determine whether something has been copied etc, rather than having something exposed from the program or Windows which states definitively "text has been copied" (or how much, or whatever).  The fact that the add-on does such a good job of it, could be an argument to put forward a case for adding it to NVDA core.  My understanding is that this is basically how other screen readers make the same assumptions about copying and pasting.

Re knowing when an email has been sent.  In a way, it is the same thing, because you don't get a message saying it has been sent, but you know it has been sent because the draft email disappears when you give the instruction to send it, and there's no error message.  Theoretically, NVDA could be made to give the user a message that the email had been sent.  You are right about teaching people to use those cues to know that it has been sent, my point was simply that in my experience, if you haven't got them familiar with the idea beforehand, probably the majority of people, if you just instruct them how to write an email and what button to press to send it, will immediately ask "did it send?"  The merits of adding a confirmation to reassure new users, vs only notifying when there is an error could be debated either way, but that's the way it works, and largely, that is the same for copying text.

We could do away with a lot of confirmation messages if we expect people to understand what commands they are giving the computer and the ways they behave.  Or, we could add in a lot more confirmation messages if we want to make computers more novice friendly.  Is the current system perfect?  Probably not.  Office, for instance, has changed to automatically saving documents.  Once you've saved a document once, in Word 2003, if you write some more text, and then press ALT+F4, Word will ask if you want to save the changes.  Word 365 will have already saved your changes and will simply close.  Which way is correct?  You could argue either way - and in fact, in the Office 365 model currenly, you NEVER get a confirmation your document has been saved.  But you can infer it by reading the title bar (for the purpose of the conversation, disregard the bug that currently prevents getting that information) and by the fact that you don't get prompted to save when you try to close Word.


On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 10:48 AM Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
If an e-mail has been sent, the window closes and you are automatically placed where you were before you wrote, replied, to, or forwarded a message.  If a message isn't able to be sent, the program opens an error window which gains focus and you can't miss it.  Therefore, a sent announcement is unnecessary and presents no information that isn't obvious if you instruct the person in what to look for.  Also, learning how to derive information from context and behavior is important.  You won't always have someone explaining everything in every program and every new program.
 
But since you clearly indicate that sighted people get information when saving an already saved document again, this is a case where the screen-reader isn't presenting information that would be useful and that can't conveniently be inferred, as in the case of e-mail. 
 
And the idea that the developers got somehow that it can't be determined when copying and pasting take place is just plain wrong.  it isn't even debateable, it’s a matter of fact.  JAWS knows when, and System Access knows when.  I have specifically seen instances when copying didn't take place and no erroneous report was made.  I don't know how this myth that the developers persist in believing got started but it has never been true. 
 
Also, the NVDA add-on tells me accurately when copying and pasting takes place.  The person who wrote the add-on believes that it doesn't for some reason but I've been using it almost daily since it came out and I've almost never seen it make a mistake.
 
I'm making a point of this because, since this can be accurately determined, it should be incorporated into NVDA and not left to an add-on, which a lot of people will never know exist. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 4:39 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

Just chiming in to give the visual perspective:
In Notepad, when pressing control+s:
- If the document has not been saved before, the "Save as" dialog appears and NVDA reports that.
- If the document has been saved previously, Notepad saves it, and NVDA does not say anything (unless you have speak command keys on, in which case NVDA reports "control+s").  Notepad does put an asterisk at the start of the filename in the title bar when a document has been edited.  This disappears when the document is saved.  NVDA does read this asterisk when reading the title bar.

In Word 365, when pressing control+s:
- If the document has not been saved before, a "Save this file" window appears and NVDA reports that.
- If the document has been saved previously and "AutoSave" is enabled, nothing happens and NVDA does not report anything (again unless speak command keys is on to report "control+s").  With AutoSave on, the document is saved every time any key is pressed so control+s is not needed.
- If the document has been saved previously and "AutoSave" is not enabled, the visual response is again subtle.  When you open a document, or save it, the title bar notes "Filename - Saved".  Once you change it, the "Saved" disappears.  This gets reinstated when you save it.  There is currently a known issue, I believe with the way Office is exposing the title bar.  See: https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/10150

Similar to announcing cut, copied or pasted, reporting when a document is saved is not something we would be inclined to add to NVDA UNLESS we could be sure a document had been saved.  I can see the usefulness of the functionality for some users (it reminds me of how when teaching email, people often want confirmation that the email has been sent, but many email clients don't give that).  For this reason, I would recommend it might be useful functionality for an add-on.  Possibly Damien Garwood, developer of the ClipSpeak add-on, might be interested in adding it.

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 6:14 AM Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
I checked, and the settings you are discussing are checked by default.  So people should hear this message in general.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:08 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

It should be spoken and if it isn't without changing NVDA settings, the problem should be corrected. 
 
Perhaps this is a problem using NVDA in Windows 10.  The message is spoken in Windows 7. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:02 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

Hi


If it is the message he wants to hear even though it is not spoken when in note pad and do the alt key + f4 key and get the message do you want to save which is not spoken.


he can do the following in nvdas settings under simple review cursor make sure it is checked and make sure simple review mode is checked.


If i want to hear the message when it comes up and says cancel save etc and it is not spoken out which does not worry me I can use object navigation to hear it in this case it is the nvda key + 6 on the numeric keypad then use nvda key + 4 tto go back to where the buttons are and save that way.


Some of the material that is not read out can be accessed with object navigation like this example.


If a document is already saved I do not need to hear it has been saved as I know it has been.


Gene nz


On 8/11/2019 7:40 am, Gene wrote:
Window-eyes says that because it is told by the developers, to say that word when that key combination is pressed.  it isn't analyzing an action by the word processor or text editor to know if a document was saved.  It is just saying the word.  That is bad design and Window-eyes probably says other things because the screen-reader is programmed to do so just because a certain key combination is pressed. 
 
Frankly, you are worrying excessively about almost nothing.  As I said, if you issue the save command twice, it is almost 100 percent certain that the document has been saved.  And to emphasize the point, all this time, you were saving documents and relying on Window-eyes to tell you that they were saved when actually, all it was doing was saying the word saved because it was programmed to when you pressed that combination.  But that shows how reliably your documents were being saved. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 12:23 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

FYI: In Window-Eyes when pressing the control-s command it does say “save”. In NVDA the alt-f4 command is helpful. Another thought that occured to me is to go to the file name in the subdirectory and check the date and time last saved, especially if i want to continue editing the document.
 
Listening for His shout!
Grant – A.K.A. Grandpa DOS
 
--
Image NVDA
        certified expert
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related materials at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net

To find out which library networks in New Zealand have a copy of the NVDA screen reader on them and there library locations please go to http://www.accessibilitycentral.net/nz%20libraries%20with%20nvda.html
To find a NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.



--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager



--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Join nvda@nvda.groups.io to automatically receive all group messages.