Re: NVDA adding and changing settings


Kevin Cussick
 

Hi, I tried the windows v command, and I did see 2 things but you can not do anything with it I.E. You can't hit enter on it or do and application key on it and get choices so really what is the point of it?

On 08/11/2019 06:13, Jaffar Sidek wrote:
Agreed Quentin.  And for all of the issues experienced on the new windows update, the windows+V key combo which allows for exploring the history of what has been pasted to the clipboard is indeed revolutionary in my opinion.  The ability to retrieve one's forgotten word or code or password or text at any time cannot be underestimated.  Cheers!
On 11/8/2019 2:04 PM, Quentin Christensen wrote:
Re copy and paste etc, remember it's not just about being able to tell with relative confidence that something has occurred, but also how much effort it takes to find that out. I know the add-on seems to work pretty well when I've used it, but maybe my machine is faster than average and my tolerance for waiting for something to happen is greater.

For now, the functionality is available in an add-on.  Yes it could be argued to bring it over to core, but then again, that would also take someone's time instead of adding some other feature or fixing some other bug - again, not a reason not to do it, but a reason to weigh up against whether it is needed in core when it already exists as an add-on.

Actually, also just for the sake of adding it here, and since I was just playing with it for another thread - Windows 10 has a clipboard history - you can press WINDOWS+V and arrow through a list of recent things copied to the clipboard. Arguably (for those on recent Windows 10 builds) that could be a way of "checking" what has been copied if you aren't sure.


On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 3:15 PM Gene <gsasner@gmail.com <mailto:gsasner@gmail.com>> wrote:

I didn't say you said that.  You said and this is a quote, for
those with punctuation off, "Similar to announcing cut, copied or
pasted, reporting when a document is saved is not something we
would be inclined to add to NVDA UNLESS we could be sure a
document had been saved."
I see no evidence that copy, cut, and paste, can't be definitely
determined.  I don't know what JAWS does or System Access, nor do
I know how the add-on monitors to determine when text is copied
and pasted.  But the reason the developers didn't want to put a
copy and paste announcement in NVDA is because they said you can't
tell when those actions are done, which is incorrect.  I'm saying
that some how, when this was being considered, the developers
believed it couldn't be done and that is stated in the Github
(spelling) discussion.
A copy and paste announcement is a different case from an e-mail
sent announcement.  In the e-mail case, you get an indication from
the program whether the message was sent.  When you copy, there is
nothing that happens to confirm that you have done so.  Without
such confirmation, very inconvenient things may occur.  Suppose
you are copying or moving files.  You issue the copy command, move
fifteen selected files, then issue the copy command after you have
selected twenty more files.  You then paste in a different folder
than the first fifteen. Imagine the annoyance when you find you
have copied the first fifteen files over again.  You then have the
annoyance of having to delete them, go back, copy the twenty files
over again after you select them again, then paste them again. The same thing could happen with text.
You can't assume that even if you are careful and know you have
issued the copy command correctly, that it has worked.  I have
exeecuted commands in the past that weren't carried out for some
reason and I had to execute the command twice.  Before the add-on,
I had inconveniences such as I described above now and then.  They
could have been avoided if the add-on had been available or if a
copy and paste announcement were built into NVDA.  I consider this
an important function and it should be built into the screen-reader.
My experience is that the add-on is accurate, but if others have
experiences that it isn't as good as it ideally should be, then
that could be worked on.
But aside from my experience that the add-on works well, my
experience with JAWS, which I used for years before NVDA existed,
is that it is accurate.  I'm saying that the premise on which the
function was rejected is incorrect.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Quentin Christensen <mailto:quentin@nvaccess.org>
*Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 7:32 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

I didn't say you couldn't make an educational assumption about
when copying and pasting has taken place, and from what I've
experienced, the add-on does do an excellent job of this.  What I
meant by us not being able to tell, was more that it would involve
checking other things to determine whether something has been
copied etc, rather than having something exposed from the program
or Windows which states definitively "text has been copied" (or
how much, or whatever).  The fact that the add-on does such a good
job of it, could be an argument to put forward a case for adding
it to NVDA core.  My understanding is that this is basically how
other screen readers make the same assumptions about copying and
pasting.

Re knowing when an email has been sent.  In a way, it is the same
thing, because you don't get a message saying it has been sent,
but you know it has been sent because the draft email disappears
when you give the instruction to send it, and there's no error
message. Theoretically, NVDA could be made to give the user a
message that the email had been sent.  You are right about
teaching people to use those cues to know that it has been sent,
my point was simply that in my experience, if you haven't got them
familiar with the idea beforehand, probably the majority of
people, if you just instruct them how to write an email and what
button to press to send it, will immediately ask "did it send?" The merits of adding a confirmation to reassure new users, vs only
notifying when there is an error could be debated either way, but
that's the way it works, and largely, that is the same for copying
text.

We could do away with a lot of confirmation messages if we expect
people to understand what commands they are giving the computer
and the ways they behave.  Or, we could add in a lot more
confirmation messages if we want to make computers more novice
friendly.  Is the current system perfect?  Probably not.  Office,
for instance, has changed to automatically saving documents.  Once
you've saved a document once, in Word 2003, if you write some more
text, and then press ALT+F4, Word will ask if you want to save the
changes.  Word 365 will have already saved your changes and will
simply close.  Which way is correct?  You could argue either way -
and in fact, in the Office 365 model currenly, you NEVER get a
confirmation your document has been saved.  But you can infer it
by reading the title bar (for the purpose of the conversation,
disregard the bug that currently prevents getting that
information) and by the fact that you don't get prompted to save
when you try to close Word.


On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 10:48 AM Gene <gsasner@gmail.com
<mailto:gsasner@gmail.com>> wrote:

If an e-mail has been sent, the window closes and you are
automatically placed where you were before you wrote, replied,
to, or forwarded a message.  If a message isn't able to be
sent, the program opens an error window which gains focus and
you can't miss it. Therefore, a sent announcement is
unnecessary and presents no information that isn't obvious if
you instruct the person in what to look for.  Also, learning
how to derive information from context and behavior is
important.  You won't always have someone explaining
everything in every program and every new program.
But since you clearly indicate that sighted people get
information when saving an already saved document again, this
is a case where the screen-reader isn't presenting information
that would be useful and that can't conveniently be inferred,
as in the case of e-mail.
And the idea that the developers got somehow that it can't be
determined when copying and pasting take place is just plain
wrong.  it isn't even debateable, it’s a matter of fact.  JAWS
knows when, and System Access knows when.  I have specifically
seen instances when copying didn't take place and no erroneous
report was made.  I don't know how this myth that the
developers persist in believing got started but it has never
been true.
Also, the NVDA add-on tells me accurately when copying and
pasting takes place.  The person who wrote the add-on believes
that it doesn't for some reason but I've been using it almost
daily since it came out and I've almost never seen it make a
mistake.
I'm making a point of this because, since this can be
accurately determined, it should be incorporated into NVDA and
not left to an add-on, which a lot of people will never know
exist.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Quentin Christensen <mailto:quentin@nvaccess.org>
*Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 4:39 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

Just chiming in to give the visual perspective:
In Notepad, when pressing control+s:
- If the document has not been saved before, the "Save as"
dialog appears and NVDA reports that.
- If the document has been saved previously, Notepad saves it,
and NVDA does not say anything (unless you have speak command
keys on, in which case NVDA reports "control+s").  Notepad
does put an asterisk at the start of the filename in the title
bar when a document has been edited.  This disappears when the
document is saved.  NVDA does read this asterisk when reading
the title bar.

In Word 365, when pressing control+s:
- If the document has not been saved before, a "Save this
file" window appears and NVDA reports that.
- If the document has been saved previously and "AutoSave" is
enabled, nothing happens and NVDA does not report anything
(again unless speak command keys is on to report
"control+s").  With AutoSave on, the document is saved every
time any key is pressed so control+s is not needed.
- If the document has been saved previously and "AutoSave" is
not enabled, the visual response is again subtle.  When you
open a document, or save it, the title bar notes "Filename -
Saved".  Once you change it, the "Saved" disappears.  This
gets reinstated when you save it.  There is currently a known
issue, I believe with the way Office is exposing the title
bar.  See: https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/10150

Similar to announcing cut, copied or pasted, reporting when a
document is saved is not something we would be inclined to add
to NVDA UNLESS we could be sure a document had been saved.  I
can see the usefulness of the functionality for some users (it
reminds me of how when teaching email, people often want
confirmation that the email has been sent, but many email
clients don't give that).  For this reason, I would recommend
it might be useful functionality for an add-on.  Possibly
Damien Garwood, developer of the ClipSpeak add-on, might be
interested in adding it.

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 6:14 AM Gene <gsasner@gmail.com
<mailto:gsasner@gmail.com>> wrote:

I checked, and the settings you are discussing are checked
by default.  So people should hear this message in general.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Gene via Groups.Io
<mailto:gsasner=gmail.com@groups.io>
*Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:08 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

It should be spoken and if it isn't without changing NVDA
settings, the problem should be corrected.
Perhaps this is a problem using NVDA in Windows 10. The
message is spoken in Windows 7.
Gene
----- Original Message -----

*From:* hurrikennyandopo ...
<mailto:hurrikennyandopo@hotmail.com>
*Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:02 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

Hi


If it is the message he wants to hear even though it is
not spoken when in note pad and do the alt key + f4 key
and get the message do you want to save which is not spoken.


he can do the following in nvdas settings under simple
review cursor make sure it is checked and make sure simple
review mode is checked.


If i want to hear the message when it comes up and says
cancel save etc and it is not spoken out which does not
worry me I can use object navigation to hear it in this
case it is the nvda key + 6 on the numeric keypad then use
nvda key + 4 tto go back to where the buttons are and save
that way.


Some of the material that is not read out can be accessed
with object navigation like this example.


If a document is already saved I do not need to hear it
has been saved as I know it has been.


Gene nz


On 8/11/2019 7:40 am, Gene wrote:
Window-eyes says that because it is told by the
developers, to say that word when that key combination is
pressed.  it isn't analyzing an action by the word
processor or text editor to know if a document was
saved.  It is just saying the word.  That is bad design
and Window-eyes probably says other things because the
screen-reader is programmed to do so just because a
certain key combination is pressed.
Frankly, you are worrying excessively about almost
nothing.  As I said, if you issue the save command twice,
it is almost 100 percent certain that the document has
been saved. And to emphasize the point, all this time,
you were saving documents and relying on Window-eyes to
tell you that they were saved when actually, all it was
doing was saying the word saved because it was programmed
to when you pressed that combination.  But that shows how
reliably your documents were being saved.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Grant Metcalf <mailto:the.gems@att.net>
*Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 12:23 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

*FYI: In Window-Eyes when pressing the control-s command
it does say “save”. In NVDA the alt-f4 command is
helpful. Another thought that occured to me is to go to
the file name in the subdirectory and check the date and
time last saved, especially if i want to continue editing
the document.*
**
*Listening for His shout!*
*Grant – A.K.A. Grandpa DOS*
--
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--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

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--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Web: www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/>
Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/
User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess <https://twitter.com/NVAccess>



--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Web: www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/>
Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/
User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess <https://twitter.com/NVAccess>

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