Re: NVDA adding and changing settings


Gene
 

Some day, when I get Windows 10 I can see what its like. 
 
Thanks.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 11:05 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

Hi,

Screen review and clipboard history: no, as this is an overlay window.

You can review clipboard history items via object navigation, but that’s not really the way to go for this scenario – you can use arrow keys to review items themselves, similar to how one can browse through emojis in emoji panel portion of modern keyboard. After you arrive at a certain item, you can then use review cursor to review data.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 8:58 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

No, I don't need the details but it is important to know whether, if you go into screen review mode, if you can review the information.  If not, can you stay in object navigation and see everything by moving from object to object?

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Joseph Lee

Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 10:52 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

Hi,

To clarify: review cursor is bounded by review modes – that is, review scope. By default object review is in use, meaning only the content of the current navigator object (or the control one is interested in) can be navigated. Document review expands this to cover complex documents such as a browse mode document, and screen review is used to review controls on screen.

What the current thread is talking about (or rather, what it has become, I believe) is ability to review contents of clipboard history entry. Without going into too much geeky details, when clipboard history opens, navigator object will be placed in the item if any exist. One can then use review cursor commands (Numpad on desktop, NVDA+Shift+arrows or Control+arrows in laptop layout) to review the content of the current item. Thus by default, with object review, only the content is navigable; one has to use arrow keys to review other history items, and not all situations will let you do that – there are times when arrow keys will not work when it comes to reviewing clipboard history, and this depends on which control one is working with.

Let me know if you need the geeky details – but if and only if I may start a brand new thread for discussing internals of modern keyboard features, since yours truly am in the position to give you a “never seen before” tour i.e. I’m the person who programmed that feature into NVDA back in 2017.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 8:31 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

I don't understand what the review cursor is controlled by the currently active review mode means.  Are you talking about in NVDA itself or something else?  for example, are you saying that in object navigation, you can only review the current object unless you move to another one?  It sounds as though you are saying that when in screen review, you still can't review the entire screen.  I believe I've seen this in some situations but isn't that some sort of limitation or problem with the program you are working with?

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Joseph Lee

Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 10:00 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

Hi,

Yes – each clipboard history item is an object. And no, review will not let you review the entire screen by default – the review cursor is controlled by the currently active review mode, and in case of some screens (including clipboard history), reviewing the entire screen isn’t possible via review cursor alone.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 7:45 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

Are you in the review cursor?  Did you move from object navigation to the review cursor?  If you are in objecgt navigation, you are reviewing the text in one object.  if you are in review cursor, you are reviewing the entire screen.  Judging from your description, each item in the clipboard history is one object.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Gene

 

From: Joseph Lee

Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 4:52 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

Hi,

No. Also note that for multi-line items, Windows (specifically, modern keyboard) may not show all text.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Griffith
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 2:43 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

I don’t appear to be able to do it here, unless I am misunderstanding Review cursor. I have in Desktop layout used numpad 7,9 and numpad + but all I can access is the one line with the NVDA announcement top at the start of the line and bottom at the end of the line.  I have just tried it with several paragraphs copied to the clipboard but can only retrieve the first line of each paragraph.

Are there other key combinations I should be using?

David Griffith

 

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Joseph Lee
Sent: 10 November 2019 22:12
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

Hi,

Actually, you can access multi-line clipboard text via review cursor.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Griffith
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2019 2:05 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

I agree  it has limited functionality – it also seems to display only one line of a clipboard clip.

However I guess it might be useful in an emergency as you can turn on NVDA’s Speech Viewer to accessibly access  the content displayed. Admittedly I have not  tried this  but 

David Griffith

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Kevin Cussick via Groups.Io
Sent: 10 November 2019 21:02
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

Hi,   I tried the windows v command,   and I did see 2 things but you

can not do anything with it I.E. You can't hit enter on it or do and

application key on it and get choices so really what is the point of it?

 

On 08/11/2019 06:13, Jaffar Sidek wrote:

> Agreed Quentin.  And for all of the issues experienced on the new

> windows update, the windows+V key combo which allows for exploring the

> history of what has been pasted to the clipboard is indeed revolutionary

> in my opinion.  The ability to retrieve one's forgotten word or code or

> password or text at any time cannot be underestimated.  Cheers!

>

> On 11/8/2019 2:04 PM, Quentin Christensen wrote:

>> Re copy and paste etc, remember it's not just about being able to tell

>> with relative confidence that something has occurred, but also how

>> much effort it takes to find that out. I know the add-on seems to work

>> pretty well when I've used it, but maybe my machine is faster than

>> average and my tolerance for waiting for something to happen is greater.

>> 

>> For now, the functionality is available in an add-on.  Yes it could be

>> argued to bring it over to core, but then again, that would also take

>> someone's time instead of adding some other feature or fixing some

>> other bug - again, not a reason not to do it, but a reason to weigh up

>> against whether it is needed in core when it already exists as an add-on.

>> 

>> Actually, also just for the sake of adding it here, and since I was

>> just playing with it for another thread - Windows 10 has a clipboard

>> history - you can press WINDOWS+V and arrow through a list of recent

>> things copied to the clipboard. Arguably (for those on recent Windows

>> 10 builds) that could be a way of "checking" what has been copied if

>> you aren't sure.

>> 

>> 

>> On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 3:15 PM Gene <gsasner@...

>> <mailto:gsasner@...>> wrote:

>> 

>>     I didn't say you said that.  You said and this is a quote, for

>>     those with punctuation off, "Similar to announcing cut, copied or

>>     pasted, reporting when a document is saved is not something we

>>     would be inclined to add to NVDA UNLESS we could be sure a

>>     document had been saved."

>>     I see no evidence that copy, cut, and paste, can't be definitely

>>     determined.  I don't know what JAWS does or System Access, nor do

>>     I know how the add-on monitors to determine when text is copied

>>     and pasted.  But the reason the developers didn't want to put a

>>     copy and paste announcement in NVDA is because they said you can't

>>     tell when those actions are done, which is incorrect.  I'm saying

>>     that some how, when this was being considered, the developers

>>     believed it couldn't be done and that is stated in the Github

>>     (spelling) discussion.

>>     A copy and paste announcement is a different case from an e-mail

>>     sent announcement.  In the e-mail case, you get an indication from

>>     the program whether the message was sent.  When you copy, there is

>>     nothing that happens to confirm that you have done so.  Without

>>     such confirmation, very inconvenient things may occur.  Suppose

>>     you are copying or moving files.  You issue the copy command, move

>>     fifteen selected files, then issue the copy command after you have

>>     selected twenty more files.  You then paste in a different folder

>>     than the first fifteen. Imagine the annoyance when you find you

>>     have copied the first fifteen files over again.  You then have the

>>     annoyance of having to delete them, go back, copy the twenty files

>>     over again after you select them again, then paste them again.

>>     The same thing could happen with text.

>>     You can't assume that even if you are careful and know you have

>>     issued the copy command correctly, that it has worked.  I have

>>     exeecuted commands in the past that weren't carried out for some

>>     reason and I had to execute the command twice.  Before the add-on,

>>     I had inconveniences such as I described above now and then.  They

>>     could have been avoided if the add-on had been available or if a

>>     copy and paste announcement were built into NVDA.  I consider this

>>     an important function and it should be built into the screen-reader.

>>     My experience is that the add-on is accurate, but if others have

>>     experiences that it isn't as good as it ideally should be, then

>>     that could be worked on.

>>     But aside from my experience that the add-on works well, my

>>     experience with JAWS, which I used for years before NVDA existed,

>>     is that it is accurate.  I'm saying that the premise on which the

>>     function was rejected is incorrect.

>>     Gene

>>     ----- Original Message -----

>>     *From:* Quentin Christensen <mailto:quentin@...>

>>     *Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 7:32 PM

>>     *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

>>     *Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

>> 

>>     I didn't say you couldn't make an educational assumption about

>>     when copying and pasting has taken place, and from what I've

>>     experienced, the add-on does do an excellent job of this.  What I

>>     meant by us not being able to tell, was more that it would involve

>>     checking other things to determine whether something has been

>>     copied etc, rather than having something exposed from the program

>>     or Windows which states definitively "text has been copied" (or

>>     how much, or whatever).  The fact that the add-on does such a good

>>     job of it, could be an argument to put forward a case for adding

>>     it to NVDA core.  My understanding is that this is basically how

>>     other screen readers make the same assumptions about copying and

>>     pasting.

>> 

>>     Re knowing when an email has been sent.  In a way, it is the same

>>     thing, because you don't get a message saying it has been sent,

>>     but you know it has been sent because the draft email disappears

>>     when you give the instruction to send it, and there's no error

>>     message. Theoretically, NVDA could be made to give the user a

>>     message that the email had been sent.  You are right about

>>     teaching people to use those cues to know that it has been sent,

>>     my point was simply that in my experience, if you haven't got them

>>     familiar with the idea beforehand, probably the majority of

>>     people, if you just instruct them how to write an email and what

>>     button to press to send it, will immediately ask "did it send?"

>>     The merits of adding a confirmation to reassure new users, vs only

>>     notifying when there is an error could be debated either way, but

>>     that's the way it works, and largely, that is the same for copying

>>     text.

>> 

>>     We could do away with a lot of confirmation messages if we expect

>>     people to understand what commands they are giving the computer

>>     and the ways they behave.  Or, we could add in a lot more

>>     confirmation messages if we want to make computers more novice

>>     friendly.  Is the current system perfect?  Probably not.  Office,

>>     for instance, has changed to automatically saving documents.  Once

>>     you've saved a document once, in Word 2003, if you write some more

>>     text, and then press ALT+F4, Word will ask if you want to save the

>>     changes.  Word 365 will have already saved your changes and will

>>     simply close.  Which way is correct?  You could argue either way -

>>     and in fact, in the Office 365 model currenly, you NEVER get a

>>     confirmation your document has been saved.  But you can infer it

>>     by reading the title bar (for the purpose of the conversation,

>>     disregard the bug that currently prevents getting that

>>     information) and by the fact that you don't get prompted to save

>>     when you try to close Word.

>> 

>> 

>>     On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 10:48 AM Gene <gsasner@...

>>     <mailto:gsasner@...>> wrote:

>> 

>>         If an e-mail has been sent, the window closes and you are

>>         automatically placed where you were before you wrote, replied,

>>         to, or forwarded a message.  If a message isn't able to be

>>         sent, the program opens an error window which gains focus and

>>         you can't miss it. Therefore, a sent announcement is

>>         unnecessary and presents no information that isn't obvious if

>>         you instruct the person in what to look for.  Also, learning

>>         how to derive information from context and behavior is

>>         important.  You won't always have someone explaining

>>         everything in every program and every new program.

>>         But since you clearly indicate that sighted people get

>>         information when saving an already saved document again, this

>>         is a case where the screen-reader isn't presenting information

>>         that would be useful and that can't conveniently be inferred,

>>         as in the case of e-mail.

>>         And the idea that the developers got somehow that it can't be

>>         determined when copying and pasting take place is just plain

>>         wrong.  it isn't even debateable, it’s a matter of fact.  JAWS

>>         knows when, and System Access knows when.  I have specifically

>>         seen instances when copying didn't take place and no erroneous

>>         report was made.  I don't know how this myth that the

>>         developers persist in believing got started but it has never

>>         been true.

>>         Also, the NVDA add-on tells me accurately when copying and

>>         pasting takes place.  The person who wrote the add-on believes

>>         that it doesn't for some reason but I've been using it almost

>>         daily since it came out and I've almost never seen it make a

>>         mistake.

>>         I'm making a point of this because, since this can be

>>         accurately determined, it should be incorporated into NVDA and

>>         not left to an add-on, which a lot of people will never know

>>         exist.

>>         Gene

>>         ----- Original Message -----

>>         *From:* Quentin Christensen <mailto:quentin@...>

>>         *Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 4:39 PM

>>         *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

>>         *Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

>> 

>>         Just chiming in to give the visual perspective:

>>         In Notepad, when pressing control+s:

>>         - If the document has not been saved before, the "Save as"

>>         dialog appears and NVDA reports that.

>>         - If the document has been saved previously, Notepad saves it,

>>         and NVDA does not say anything (unless you have speak command

>>         keys on, in which case NVDA reports "control+s").  Notepad

>>         does put an asterisk at the start of the filename in the title

>>         bar when a document has been edited.  This disappears when the

>>         document is saved.  NVDA does read this asterisk when reading

>>         the title bar.

>> 

>>         In Word 365, when pressing control+s:

>>         - If the document has not been saved before, a "Save this

>>         file" window appears and NVDA reports that.

>>         - If the document has been saved previously and "AutoSave" is

>>         enabled, nothing happens and NVDA does not report anything

>>         (again unless speak command keys is on to report

>>         "control+s").  With AutoSave on, the document is saved every

>>         time any key is pressed so control+s is not needed.

>>         - If the document has been saved previously and "AutoSave" is

>>         not enabled, the visual response is again subtle.  When you

>>         open a document, or save it, the title bar notes "Filename -

>>         Saved".  Once you change it, the "Saved" disappears.  This

>>         gets reinstated when you save it.  There is currently a known

>>         issue, I believe with the way Office is exposing the title

>>         bar.  See: https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/10150

>> 

>>         Similar to announcing cut, copied or pasted, reporting when a

>>         document is saved is not something we would be inclined to add

>>         to NVDA UNLESS we could be sure a document had been saved.  I

>>         can see the usefulness of the functionality for some users (it

>>         reminds me of how when teaching email, people often want

>>         confirmation that the email has been sent, but many email

>>         clients don't give that).  For this reason, I would recommend

>>         it might be useful functionality for an add-on.  Possibly

>>         Damien Garwood, developer of the ClipSpeak add-on, might be

>>         interested in adding it.

>> 

>>         Kind regards

>> 

>>         Quentin.

>> 

>>         On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 6:14 AM Gene <gsasner@...

>>         <mailto:gsasner@...>> wrote:

>> 

>>             I checked, and the settings you are discussing are checked

>>             by default.  So people should hear this message in general.

>>             Gene

>>             ----- Original Message -----

>>             *From:* Gene via Groups.Io

>>             <mailto:gsasner@...>

>>             *Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:08 PM

>>             *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

>>             *Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

>> 

>>             It should be spoken and if it isn't without changing NVDA

>>             settings, the problem should be corrected.

>>             Perhaps this is a problem using NVDA in Windows 10. The

>>             message is spoken in Windows 7.

>>             Gene

>>             ----- Original Message -----

>> 

>>             *From:* hurrikennyandopo ...

>>             <mailto:hurrikennyandopo@...>

>>             *Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:02 PM

>>             *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

>>             *Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

>> 

>>             Hi

>> 

>> 

>>             If it is the message he wants to hear even though it is

>>             not spoken when in note pad and do the alt key + f4 key

>>             and get the message do you want to save which is not spoken.

>> 

>> 

>>             he can do the following in nvdas settings under simple

>>             review cursor make sure it is checked and make sure simple

>>             review mode is checked.

>> 

>> 

>>             If i want to hear the message when it comes up and says

>>             cancel save etc and it is not spoken out which does not

>>             worry me I can use object navigation to hear it in this

>>             case it is the nvda key + 6 on the numeric keypad then use

>>             nvda key + 4 tto go back to where the buttons are and save

>>             that way.

>> 

>> 

>>             Some of the material that is not read out can be accessed

>>             with object navigation like this example.

>> 

>> 

>>             If a document is already saved I do not need to hear it

>>             has been saved as I know it has been.

>> 

>> 

>>             Gene nz

>> 

>> 

>>             On 8/11/2019 7:40 am, Gene wrote:

>>>             Window-eyes says that because it is told by the

>>>             developers, to say that word when that key combination is

>>>             pressed.  it isn't analyzing an action by the word

>>>             processor or text editor to know if a document was

>>>             saved.  It is just saying the word.  That is bad design

>>>             and Window-eyes probably says other things because the

>>>             screen-reader is programmed to do so just because a

>>>             certain key combination is pressed.

>>>             Frankly, you are worrying excessively about almost

>>>             nothing.  As I said, if you issue the save command twice,

>>>             it is almost 100 percent certain that the document has

>>>             been saved. And to emphasize the point, all this time,

>>>             you were saving documents and relying on Window-eyes to

>>>             tell you that they were saved when actually, all it was

>>>             doing was saying the word saved because it was programmed

>>>             to when you pressed that combination.  But that shows how

>>>             reliably your documents were being saved.

>>>             Gene

>>>             ----- Original Message -----

>>>             *From:* Grant Metcalf <mailto:the.gems@...>

>>>             *Sent:* Thursday, November 07, 2019 12:23 PM

>>>             *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

>>>             *Subject:* Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

>>> 

>>>             *FYI: In Window-Eyes when pressing the control-s command

>>>             it does say “save”. In NVDA the alt-f4 command is

>>>             helpful. Another thought that occured to me is to go to

>>>             the file name in the subdirectory and check the date and

>>>             time last saved, especially if i want to continue editing

>>>             the document.*

>>>             **

>>>             *Listening for His shout!*

>>>             *Grant – A.K.A. Grandpa DOS*

>>             --

>>             Image NVDA certified expert

>>             Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other

>>             blindness related materials at

>>             http://www.accessibilitycentral.net

>> 

>>             To find out which library networks in New Zealand have a

>>             copy of the NVDA screen reader on them and there library

>>             locations please go to

>>             http://www.accessibilitycentral.net/nz%20libraries%20with%20nvda.html

>>             To find a NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the

>>             following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The

>>             certification page contains the official list of NVDA

>>             certified individuals from around the world, who have sat

>>             and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.

>> 

>> 

>> 

>>         --

>>         Quentin Christensen

>>         Training and Support Manager

>> 

>>         Web: www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/>

>>         Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

>>         Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/

>>         User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda

>>         Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess

>>         Twitter: @NVAccess <https://twitter.com/NVAccess>

>> 

>> 

>> 

>>     --

>>     Quentin Christensen

>>     Training and Support Manager

>> 

>>     Web: www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/>

>>     Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

>>     Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/

>>     User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda

>>     Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess

>>     Twitter: @NVAccess <https://twitter.com/NVAccess>

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> --

>> Quentin Christensen

>> Training and Support Manager

>> 

>> Web: www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/>

>> Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

>> Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/

>> User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda

>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess

>> Twitter: @NVAccess <https://twitter.com/NVAccess>

>

 

 

 

 

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