Re: How is verbosity decided


Quentin Christensen
 

Ok so there's two issues here:

Firstly, the new feature, reporting of figures.  I didn't write or review the code myself, but it appears the feature was added, and set to enabled automatically - possibly because, at the time, no UX was implemented for a toggle in the settings dialog.  To be honest, I don't know the exact rationale for enabling it by default (and I haven't yet had a chance to play with it enough to form an opinion on it myself).

Next is the issue of what options get enabled or disabled by default.  In fact, we add many features which are disabled by default, but of course the ones which are enabled, and which any given user doesn't want, are going to be immediately annoying.

Just for reference, there are 31 items in NVDA's document formatting settings.  Of those, 17, or just over half, are on by default.  Is it the right half?  That's going to be subjective, but suffice to say, we do try to strike a balance between enabling options by default, which the majority of users will find useful versus still providing but disabling by default, options which will be quite useful to a smaller subset of users..  Absolutely it's a difficult task - what you find an invaluably useful feature, another user might find incredibly annoying.

There is something to be said for sitting down with a complex piece of software, upon which you will rely quite heavily - like a screenreader (or even your email client, web browser, or other regularly used software), and going through the settings to work out what will work best for you.  I used to work for a blindness agency, and I used to go out to client's home or workplace and help them setup things like NVDA - and probably the most valuable hour or so I spent with them, was after we'd ascertained what would work best, sitting down with them, and setting it up to their needs.  Turning on features which THEY would use, and turning off features they wouldn't - Some users are comfortable doing this themselves, and for those who aren't, I would highly recommend finding either someone from an agency, or an NVDA Certified Expert, or someone, to sit with you, and go through the settings and get NVDA (or, to be honest, any technology you will rely on) setup to best meet your needs, it's time well spent.

Does that mean we can't improve the default settings?  Of course not, and if people have ideas on how we can improve that, as always, do please let us know.

On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 6:57 PM Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
I read the discussion and it looks to me like the kind of essoteric minutia
that leads to all sorts of things being spoken that don't benefit the
typical user, most people and that a lot of people won't know how to turn
off or that such reporting can be turned off.

For those who want this minute information, they can turn such reporting on.
And those who do want it are far more likely to know where to find such
settings.

This reminds me of the Ptolmaic versus the Copernican models of the
universe.  With the earth at the center of the universe, accounting for the
orbits of stars became increasingly complicated.  When the model was changed
and the earth was no longer the unmoving center of the universe, great
simplicity was achieved.

I see little benefit for a lot of users presenting ever-increasing detail.
Teach use of the find command, move by headings, move by numbered headings
and the use of the skip blocs of links commands and that is plenty to allow
efficient navigation for most people.  Every time something is added and on
by default, more distraction and more inefficiency is added to reading.
Most of the time, most people want to read information on the Internet for
reading, not for writing papers or other purposes where minute detail is
wanted or needed.  I strongly believe those are the uses and users that
should be considered when information to be spoken is considered in default
settings.

If I'm reading a magazine article, I don't want to hear something like list
with six items and two embeded lists when I come across information about
this or that subject.  I don't want to hear block quote, out of block quote
when an aaarticle says, according to Mr. Johnson, and then a quote from him.

If ;people think I'm wrong, is there some way to survey typical users?

I see no value  in using landmarks to find things on pages.  The search
command, move by heading and move by the skip blocks of links commands are
plenty.  Again, to an extent, how people are taught may determine what they
use and how.  Simplicity and efficiency in combination should, in my opinion
be an emphasis of the training material.  Rather than micromemorization, on
this page, move by heading level 3 to get here or there most efficiently, on
that page, move by heading level 2, etc. the minutia becomes absurd.  I've
seen people describe this means of navigation when  discussing how to find
something on a page on lists.  I'm not saying the training material teaches
it but I doubt it thoroughly teaches and emphasizes what I am describing
either and I think it should.  For example, on this [page search for opi n
to get to the opinion link.  On this site search for edito to get to the
editorial section.  Search for cont on most sites to find the contact link.
On a radio station, search for listen to get to a listen live or equivalent
link.

I have never seen these means of navigation taught to any extent and
emphasized.  I haven't see  the NVDA training material but if it doesn't
make a strong point of teaching this as a means of navigation, I strongly
believe it should.

On what sort of page and in what context is announcement of figure helpful?
I see it on The New York Times page but I see no useful pattern.  Its there
on this or that link and not there on a lot of links.  Moving by whatever
structure allows me to move in that way wouldn't benefit me in any
meaningful way, if at all.  I want to see what The Times has as its stories
on the home page.  Using h to move by heading is the most efficient way.
Hearing figure and out of figure when I'm reading an article or figure when
I move by heading from story to story headline is nothing but clutter.  Some
essoteric use may be made of this ihnformation but why is it on by default?

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Quentin Christensen
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2020 9:41 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How is verbosity decided


Hi Zahra,

2020.3 you mean?  Yes, looks like this was the issue involved:
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/9485

The overall point in the what's new file is:

In Internet Explorer, Google Chrome and Mozilla Firefox, You can now
navigate by article and grouping using quick navigation scripts. These
scripts are unbound by default and can be assigned in the Input Gestures
dialog when the dialog is opened from a browse mode document. (#9485, #9227)
- Figures are also reported. They are considered objects and therefore
navigable with the o quick navigation key.


On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 2:35 PM zahra <nasrinkhaksar3@...> wrote:
quentin,
is nvda 2019.3 is the first version that nvda announces figure?
and may i ask in which github this feature was added to nvda?

On 12/17/20, Quentin Christensen <quentin@...> wrote:
> Firstly,
>
> Yes you are correct, figures are reported but there is currently no
> document formatting option to toggle that.  There is, however, an issue
> for
> that already - so do feel free to subscribe to that for updates on when it
> is updated: https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/10826
>
> The idea of including configuration profiles in NVDA itself is of course
> possible, but what would be included? (rhetorical question!)
>
> If we did that, then suddenly some programs would behave differently to
> others - or you'd really want to change a setting, and yet it wouldn't be
> changed in every program, and why does NVDA read this really useful
> information in Word but not Firefox?  It would cause more problems than it
> would solve, especially as how one user uses Word for instance, might be
> very different to how another user does.
>
> So the best solution, we feel, is to not have any configuration profiles
> setup by default, but to hopefully teach users how to access them.  I have
> put forward my idea for improving configuration profiles here:
> https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/10322 - as with any other issue,
> feel free to subscribe to that, or to add your own 2 cents to it if you
> have a point to add which hasn't been made already on the issue.
>
> The scripts term is a bit confusing.  Most of the time when people use it,
> they mean either Jaws scripts or NVDA add-ons.  In fact, the term has
> crept
> into our "What's new" document (in quite a few places as I look at it now)
> to mean a software function in NVDA itself.  For instance in 2020.3 one
> change was:
>
> "The Report formatting script (NVDA+f) has now been changed to report the
> formatting at the system caret rather than at the review cursor position.
> To report formatting at the review cursor position now use NVDA+shift+f.
> (#9505)"
>
> Which refers to NVDA's own internal routine which runs when a user presses
> NVDA+f.  So Gene's comment about NVDA using "scripts for various
> programs",
> is (I think I'm reading his intentions correctly) in line with that usage
> of the word, and I'm happy to put my hand up and say we can take the blame
> for that particular confusion :)
>
> Also the difference between bug report and feature request is more around
> the prompts in the template itself - the issue still ends up in the same
> place (as an issue), and several people have commented that we should
> actually add a few more of the prompt questions from the bug report
> template to the feature request template.  In essence, whatever you are
> reporting or requesting, try to include as much information as possible
> which might be relevant, even if it isn't explicitly asked.
>
> Quentin.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 9:56 AM Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 05:13 PM, Gene wrote:
>>
>> newly added announcement of figure and out of figure. I have found no
>> setting to control this announcement.
>>
>> -
>> I'll agree that:
>>
>> 1. This could be mighty annoying.
>> 2. It's something that should be toggle-able like most other document
>> formatting announcements are.
>>
>> My guess is that focus was on getting the function to work, but that
>> adding another checkbox to Document Formatting options slipped through
>> the
>> cracks.  I don't know whether such a request would be considered a bug
>> report versus feature request.  I'd be more inclined toward bug report,
>> as
>> there is a well established collection of settings that would seem to
>> have
>> been the ideal place to add a checkbox for this, but it didn't happen.
>>
>> --
>>
>> Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042
>>
>> [Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas
>> to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:]  *Pleased with the SCOTUS
>> ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train
>> goes next.  We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.*
>>
>>         ~ Brendan Buck, *former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul
>> Ryan and John Boehner*
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> Quentin Christensen
> Training and Support Manager
>
> Web: www.nvaccess.org
> Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
> Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/
> User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda
> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
> Twitter: @NVAccess <https://twitter.com/NVAccess>
>
>
>
>
>
>


--
By God,
were I given all the seven heavens
with all they contain
in order that
I may disobey God
by depriving an ant
from the husk of a grain of barley,
I would not do it.
imam ali









--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Web: www.nvaccess.org
Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/
User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess









--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Join nvda@nvda.groups.io to automatically receive all group messages.