Re: How is verbosity decided


 

Hi,
O will move you by embedded objects. And even if you can move amongst figure elements (you can partly blame ARIA specs and interpretation for this saga), not all browsers will expose figure elements equally.
I will make a general statement about some core issues touched by this discussion soon.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2020 7:15 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How is verbosity decided

I've been playing with the figure movement ability and I did find one place on the New York Times home page where I got information I wouldn't have seen moving by heading. There is a figure that begins a number of lines above the heading that is in the figure and some information is read when I move in that way. So I wouldn't say not to check a page using the move by figure command but I don't think that means that having figure announced is meaningful for most people. You can move by figure, the command is the letter o to move forward and shift o to move backward by figure. the other figures contain no information that matters. I'm not interested in the information I'm discussing that I saw in this way but for accuracy and completeness, I'm pointing out that a times you may see information if you move through a page in that way you might miss moving in other ways. It may be of interest to you. of course, you would see it reading the whole page but that isn't what I'm discussing.

In short, even not having figure announced you can still move by figure.
You can determine by doing this on various pages whether you see anything you might miss other ways. I doubt you will most of the time. And I still think the figure and out of figure announcement should be off.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Gene
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2020 4:13 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How is verbosity decided

I will say that the reason I wrote my first message, the motivation that got me to do it is the newly added announcement of figure and out of figure. I
have found no setting to control this announcement. If there is a way I
overlooked, of course I'd like to know. But I see no reason for this announcement to be on. I haven't encountered it once where it adds any understanding of content. I might hear figure and then a link being read, then out of figure. The link would read exactly the same either way.

Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2020 3:44 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How is verbosity decided

On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 04:21 PM, Gene wrote:
I'm talking about having profiles in the program at the time its downloaded that will cause differences such as bloc quotes to be announced in popular e-mail programs and not on the wweb.

-
I imagine it would be possible for NVAccess to create Configuration Profiles for any of a number of popular programs, and include them as part of the package. But the problem remains, defaults have to be chosen, and no matter what those are someone's not going to like them.

You have already had me, and Sarah, so far express why your chosen preference for you is something that neither of us would want as the default. That's not saying that your choice is wrong or inferior or that ours is better or superior, it all comes down to "tool to task".

Gene, you have expressed, on many occasions, that many screen reader users do not know how to use many of the features of their chosen screen readers for a number of different reasons, and I think that's the case here, to an extent. I just spent a few minutes playing with configuration profiles and triggers related to same and they're pretty straightforward. Even I will say that I can see a reason one might want to have predefined profiles for the various web browsers, and certain other programs, that are different from what the default NVDA configuration profile is, and one could legitimately discuss and argue what the default settings for some of those various profiles should be. But in the end, the end user absolutely, positively needs to know how to tweak these profiles if they were pre-existing, or to create them if they are not, if they have specific behaviors they want to see when a certain program is active.

Joseph Lee introduced me to the concept of information blackout in regard to screen reader users. There is no way that a screen reader can take in everything that appears on the screen at any given moment as a whole and deal with multiple elements like sighted people do, just because that's how sight and visual processing works. That means that from the outset there are things you don't know are there. When you add in that when text is read, with formatting, and you can't know what any given user at any given time might or might not find significant, you leave all options for announcement (or most of them, anyway), turned ON. You will never, and should never try, to second guess what any given individual may or may not find significant as far as a lot of document formatting goes. It took me all of a few minutes to figure out where the NVDA Configuration Profile Settings are (NVDA+N,C), create a new profile for a specific program on which I had focus before issuing that command (Use this profile for section, Current application radio button), and then using Document Formatting Options while that profile is active (you just continue on to those settings after having created the profile, which should still be active since you haven't changed the application which still has focus) to change what is/is not announced.

While you can argue, and should, what reasonable defaults are, in the end it is up to the end user to know how to do what I just described. And if they're annoyed about stuff being announced to post a message to a forum like this one asking about how they can get rid of the issue.

There is not, and never will be, a one-size-fits-all out of the box that makes every user happy. And the tools exist to, if not make any given user entirely happy, bring them an awful lot closer to that state.

When you have a problem, after briefly venting about it in a venue such as this, the next question should be: Is there I way I can make this work the way I want it to work? And explaining exactly what that is if the initial problem description and venting did not make that entirely clear.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] Pleased with the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train goes next.
We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House Paul Ryan and John Boehner

Join nvda@nvda.groups.io to automatically receive all group messages.