Re: How is verbosity decided

Bob Cavanaugh <cavbob1993@...>

Although I've stayed out of this discussion until now, I'll jump in
here. There's a reason NVDA is #2 in screen reader usage, a lot of
people see it as an alternative to JAWS. I personally have never been
able to afford JAWS, but now that I'm going to be using NVDA more
frequently and I have some money of my own, I'm considering becoming a
monthly doner. There are a few things I would like to say about
verbosity having come from mainly using System Access, this week being
the first in a long time that I haven't used it at all.
1. I find the verbosity of JAWS annoying at times. I don't need to
know that I pressed enter or tab when I am moving through items, or
every little thing in parenthesies. It is here I think NVDA does a
very good job.
2. I suspect that as landmarks become more common, they are going to
become a major source of navigation. For me, I came in about when they
were first appearing, and while System Access acknowledged a main by
starting to read from it, there was no way to navigate by them,
causing me to never get into the habit of using them.
3. Overall, I think the developers of NVDA have done a good job, and
while I've learned a lot from this list about configuration profiles,
I think there's one default that should be changed, as whenever I
install a new copy of NVDA, I can never remember what setting to
change. I think it's unchecking screen layout, but I'm not sure. It's
a setting that, when on by default, gives all the links in a row or in
context when using your arrow keys, rather than displaying them one at
a time. NVDA is the only screen reader I know of that displays links
in a big group like that by default. That being said, there are
programs that NVDA reads that don't read well in other screen readers,
and I appreciate that.

On 12/17/20, Shaun Everiss <> wrote:
I agree.

I like my settings as they are.

My biggest issue is with clickables, its bad coding on web pages I know
this but clickable all over the place, its one of the first thing I turn

The other is screen layout because things seem to work better for me
without it.

I have also turned off column and table announcement because when I
brouse an ftp on the web I don't want to hear item 1052 of 85232 or
something like that when brousing an ftp server via the web.

Maybe we should have some conditions set for that when say brousing ftp
or other web directories when the user really doesn't want or need a
table or columns.

Luckily for me thats not a problem turning all the tables, rows and
columns off because I don't use office, but maybe there needs to be a
seperation between tables rows and columns for documents and for say the
web brouser, ie chrome, fire/waterfox, etc.

Thats probably about the only issue that really gets me right now.

I have also noticed that some settings, in context like emphasis font
change, etc may have had their origin in a certain situation, but
applying those settings in say a general web or standard every day
desktop navigation task just doesn't make sence.

In certain web apps and this is the tricky part some of all that may be
usefull but general web stuff well.

Another thing is that we should be able to export our configuration
profiles or have a way like addons where we can create a profile, upload
it somewhere and have a way to download it.

There are plenty of users on here and a lot of us have plenty of profiles.

I have a couple but I don't as a rule need to use profiles for my day to
day task.

I do a lot of admin work, testing work, etc.

If things get bad and from time to time they may, it may be necessary to
reinstall my device or the device I am working on and while I try to
avoid doing that, I can never be bothered at least for a while
recreating my profiles again so while I may have done it in the past I
have found unless I need to I don't bother now.

On 18/12/2020 4:27 am, Gene wrote:
We've heard from a few people saying they like this or that setting as
it is. I think it might be of real benefit to take a survey to
determine what most people, at least if enough respond, want.  It has
been traditional since the very early days when all this verbosity
became possible for screen-readers to announce it.  I haven't heard of
one survey of users done to find out what they want. Whether I am
right about what people want or not, I think my point is valid.  We
don't know if the amount of verbossity is what people want or not.


-----Original Message----- From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2020 9:17 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] How is verbosity decided

On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 02:57 AM, Gene wrote:
If ;people think I'm wrong, is there some way to survey typical users?-
Gene, even if there were a survey, you just will not accept the fact
that what you, or I, or any given individual prefers does not mean
that many others will prefer it.

You have a good point in terms of a completely new product, or
feature, sometimes, but once something has been in wide release like
NVDA has, changing what have been defaults for features of
longstanding becomes way more trouble than it's worth.

There is absolutely something to your point about figures announcement
in that it should be able to be turned on/off at will.  As to the rest
of your position, not so much.  You cannot seem to take on the
information that multiple users have presented here that your opinion,
and desires, do not match theirs.  As a result, what you see fit to
have turned on/off by default is incongruent with what they would have
turned on/off by default.

In the end, and not just for screen readers, it is the absolute
obligation of the end user to seek assistance in customizing things to
their liking. No one at any software development house can ever create
something that makes everybody happy, and particularly as far as what
setting ship as default out of the box.  The tools exist to allow
users to create their own best experience and if they're concerned
with doing that then they need to explore them, with whatever
assistance is necessary, or alone if none whatsoever is available.
This isn't a blindness-related thing in any way. It simply is, and has
always been, for any piece of software.  The more complex the software
the more true it is if you're looking to get as close to exactly what
you prefer.

If you can't, or won't, acknowledge the absolute truth of the
preceding paragraph then you cannot be reasoned with.  No excuses
about "lack of training" or similar change it.

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