Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Dennis L <dennisl1982@...>

First I worked with Brian once. He gave his time and tried to get my shut down sound to play. I found him to be very smart and knowledgeable. He knew how to explain things that I understood. He explained what he was doing when we did a remote session. Did the problem get resolved no but that wasn't for a lack of effort on Brian's part. So I agree we shouldn't judge.

-----Original Message-----
From: <> On Behalf Of Shaun Everiss
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2020 5:17 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

That could be a little generalistic.

On here, sure probably spot on.

However I have had instances, some of which were in university, where one person helping me actually had a second terminal and looked up keyboard shortcuts and such but another did everything because they didn't know what else to do.

I have had similar issues with some stuff.

Say the system was broken.

Sightling wants to fix the thing themselves.

I try to instruct, and they still get it wrong.

So I guess it works both ways.

I've also had various instructions given to me that were not the right ones.

Some by those that should have known better to.

These were to fix issues that I was asking for.

They ended up breaking things a lot more.

Excluding microsoft support here, I actually had something else that I wanted to get help fixing.

Lets just say the instructions didn't fix things.

They made them worse.

I had to take the long way round, which is the way I usually do if its just to broken for me to care.

Of course things are more complex when they break and it takes me a while to rebuild rather than fix a broken thing.

I have friends that while quite smart with tech, I wouldn't trust enough to tell me how to print a document or update an app, and thats because I have done it the other way.

I guess the good thing is we don't easily get destracted with flashy buttons.

To set up somethings, for say a device, open the right program, install the right driver, etc.

They are open the right program, install the right driver, click the interesting add that looks to say install drivers without reading it.

Load the extra stuff by clicking about, go through instructions to install something without reading the entire screen or worse try to text and do computer work at the same time.

Finnish, put in payment information to install drivers, finally put down their phone and find they are lost.

They ask me, where they are.

And I go updating a program, where did you go, they say don't know.

I installed something told it download now and did a few other things and it all loaded.

And I go, were you on the phone and they go yeah and I go, maybe you give it to me to fix and I try to do it.

Of course once I clear the spyware, and possibly clean install their os, I try the command on my system, their system, my couple extra workstations and find it works and wander, where they went wrong.

I have also had sightlings go all over the place bar the icons they should or get impatient I am navigating slowly to where I need instead of rappidly moving toward it and clicking randomly.

So in some cases its better to be instructing the sightling rather than the other way round.

One of the worst half screen readers is my dad.

At least once a year he loads spyware and other junk on his system because he is trying to follow what should be a simple instruction.

But I guess its the generation.

My now dead grandpa never caught up with computers and my aunt while she knows enough about work stuff and office would panic if windows didn't start with the network working.

She doesn't want to learn either though.

There are those sorts of people about to instruct us to.

So for a beginner, you need to know simple things, like double click translates to enter.

Single click of left could be space, right click is the applications key or shift f10, etc.

All those shaped icons like envelopes and corners just don't work, etc, etc, etc.

In fact even if you are not sure, even if you don't ever want to rtfm like I hardly do, at least read a simple shortcut list of required keys before asking for or instructing and you may get about unless the program is visual in nature.

I learned things through trial and error.

So radio buttons are buttons you can check and uncheck, checkboxes are boxes, combo boxes and list boxes are just boxes with lists in them.

And some stuff doesn't translate at all.

Instructions are generally fine from a sighted person, but depends what they are, those can be subjective.

On 31/12/2020 9:43 am, Gene wrote:
There is no inherent reason a sighted person can't provide
instructions that correspond to the way blind people generally do
things on computers or anywhere else. It depends what they know.

Conversely, and this is being overlooked in the discussion, blind
people who know how can provide instructions similar to what a sighted
person would provide for a sighted person.

for example, I could tell a sighted person to open a program, click on
the tools menu or the gear icon, if I knew that is how it is shown,
and it usually is, then click options, and so on.

The ability to do this means that a blind person understands how to
apply sighted instructions to using a computer as a blind person
usually does. If blind people know something about translating
sighted instructions into blind procedures, they will be able to help
themselves learn more programs and can often follow instructions on
how to work with this or that feature in programs they already use
that are written for sighted people.

If a blind person is interested and wants to learn these things, the
benefits may be meaningful to the person. Many blind people only use
programs that have specific instructional material for blind people
and their interests don't go further. But its important that this
other side of the discussion be pointed out.


On 12/30/2020 2:19 PM, Jackie wrote:

I think Arlene was just trying to say that Brian doesn't instruct like
most sighted folks. The context of the message bears that out, I

Full moon. It hsows. Last of 2020. Ow-oo. Happy New Year, all.

On 12/30/20, Gary Metzler <> wrote:
Very well said.

From: <> On Behalf Of Nimer
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2020 2:55 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read

Hello Arlene,

I would like to challenge your message and thinking a little bit. I am
posting publicly, because it is an important topic. While you seem
to be in
support of Brian, I couldn't help but notice that you stated that Brian
doesn't sound "blind".

What does a blind person sound like? Is it really necessary to judge
as sounding a certain way? Isn't it better if we choose to not
judge, not
have preconceived notions which divide us and put barriers between
us? Isn't
the rest of the world already divided? Should we not model, as a
the very definition of non-discrimination? That is my ideal, anyway,
my hope
in writing this message. We all are human beings. We all are beautiful,
unique souls. The things that bring us together should be the things we
honor and acknowledge. Brian brings so many strengths to the table as a
moderator, we should all appreciate those things about Brian that
makes him
the wonderful individual that he is. Same goes for anyone else on
this list.
We all have struggles, we all have cultural differences, we all have
differing opinions on politics and whatever else, but at the end of
the day,
every single one of you are all beatutiful, human souls, regardless
of your
physical characteristics.

For me, I welcome anyone on this list, and as a moderator, without
regard to
any physical, religious, sex, etc characteristics, and I urge
everyone to
drop your preconceived notions as to who any of us are, and focus
please, on
the things that bring us together, and celebrate those things that
make us

Thank you everyone for the support you are showing Brian.

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 11:32 AM Arlene <
<> > wrote:

I had no clue you can see. The way you talk like the blind users. I
you were blind like us. Well, keep up the good work. You’d be a good
advocate for blind users who have to fight with isp providers. You
know how
they say click here or there. They have no clue that you are a blind
I’ve encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see. The
person said
Oh don’t listen to the screen reader listen to me. I said that
screen reader
helps me help you see the screen. He tried to tell me to click a
green box.
Just then a sighted friend who happened to know how to talk like us
users. She told the person on the phone that I don’t see. He felt
like a
fool! This screen reader was NVDA. I don’t know if this is true. This
friend said that NVDA looks more like windows. She described that it
interacts more like you would see windows like a sighted person.
Some of
the key commands are similar to Jaws. Even my food safe tutor said
the NVDA
screen reader looks more like windows. He had full sight.

Sent from Mail <> for

From: Brian Vogel <>
Sent: December 30, 2020 9:29 AM
To: <>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read

Rosemarie and Arlene,

I just wanted to thank you for your kind words, and
for your saying you'd forgotten or not known that I am sighted. I do
mention this occasionally because I do not want anyone, on any of
the blind
technology groups on which I participate, to ever believe I am
trying to
impersonate a blind person nor making any claim that I can or do
know, a in
lived experience sense, what it is to be blind. I've simply worked
blind technology and individuals who are blind and visually impaired
quite a few years now and that's taught me an awful lot.

But it's very nice to know that, at least for the most
part, much
of what I now write in these venues reads in such a way that the
fact that I
see is not at all readily obvious unless I bring it up or someone
else does.
There are times where the fact that I can see is relevant, and it
perfect sense for that to be mentioned when it is. But when it's not
germane to the conversation it just isn't.

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by
Texas to
overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] Pleased with the SCOTUS
but also immediately slightly terrified of where this crazy train
goes next.
We should know by now there’s a bottomless supply of crazy.

~ Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers of the House
Paul Ryan
and John Boehner



Nimer Jaber

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