Thats a valid point, often I have told a sightling where to click and its not that at all.
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The reader layout and what it translates maybe completely different.
On 31/12/2020 3:24 pm, Chris Smart wrote:
Sarah, if you're reading this, remember that what your screen reader calls something may not at all be what a sighted people sees. You may say "click on where it says 'sound settings'" and they may only see a little icon of a microphone. How do you account for discrepancies like that?
On 2020-12-30 9:22 p.m., Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
I agree. If I was a beginning computer user, I wouldn't want Sarah as my instructor. If she's gonna tell people to click on something, she might as well say "point and click". I say that because I actually had a teacher yell at me because I couldn't use the mouse to click on something. I too hope Sarah doesn't teach older computer users or beginners to the computer.
On 12/30/2020 6:12 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
Gee, Sarah, I hope you don't teach older blind people and/or beginners. Much too demanding for a beginner to expect that. Let's blind fold the sighted folks and tell them to do just keyboard stuff, no clicks. There isn't a one size fits all, and often people who have mastered a lot think everybody else should do the same to the same extent, or they're not worth messing with. I've seen that with blind supertechies, self-styled, and it is disgusting.
Off tipic, maybe. But I'm just responding to what I dfeel is an absurd approach.
On 12/30/2020 6:02 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
Oh no. I tell a blind person click this and click that, and if they cannot follow my directions, then it's not my problem. they need to learn how to translate that into what ever that means for them. If they fail to do so, they will be left behind, and I cannot do anything about that.
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On 30 Dec 2020, at 16:08, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 02:32 PM, Arlene wrote:
You’d be a good advocate for blind users who have to fight
with isp providers. You know how they say click here or
there. They have no clue that you are a blind user. I’ve
encountered someone who had no clue that I don’t see.
Now, Arlene, I'll probably end up causing you some offense while
at the same time praising you and trashing the clueless sighted, too.
I have been a good advocate on many occasions for multiple
issues. But, at the same time, there are "click here and click
there" instructions that should be simple to follow, while there
are others that are impossible to follow. There are plenty of
sighted individuals (like I have to say this here), and
particularly techs, who have probably never dealt with an
individual who is blind let alone with a screen reader. If you
ask most of your sighted friends and acquaintances who've never
been around someone who's blind when they're using a computer how
they think that would work, they generally can't answer. I could
not have answered this during my many years in the computer biz,
and that was, I would say, for the majority of my many years in
the computer biz. The whole concept of something so visually
driven in the most common user interface is almost impossible to
conceive of via other modalities. Those of us who see "swim in
sight" like it's water and we're Esther Williams and, for obvious
reasons, that's a taken for granted thing. Just like those of us
who can hear do the same for audition. You just don't think about
sensory modalities you lack, or how those would be substituted,
when you have no real reason to in daily existence.
I honestly think it sometimes just doesn't register with some
techs when you identify yourself as blind (which, I will add, is
absolutely your responsibility when engaging technical support -
they can't read minds) and for many where it does, what they are
doing and saying is out of force of habit rather than malice or
stupidity. It's probably ignorance more than anything. But
sometimes you have to guide them, and teach them something, when
they're trying to guide you in a way that can't work. Were
someone to say, "Click on the gear icon," responding with, "I
can't see that, but do you mean you want me to open settings?," is
going to get both sides of the equation something they need. You
get clarity (or hopefully you do) and the tech gets clued in,
however subtly and possibly temporarily, that there is a way to
reference things that is not purely visual. They'll usually keep
screwing up out of force of habit during any given session, but if
you keep instructing them about what you need, they'll often be
willing to rephrase. For certain things, it's worth trying to get
the point across that giving reference points, is something worth
doing. A response like, "Click on the red button at the upper
left is meaningless for me, but is there another button or link
very near to it? If I can find that, I can likely find what's
next to it." There really are not, and never will be, enough
technicians out there versed in screen readers and blindness to
provide support for every product that exists, particularly for
smaller companies. But many techs really want to help, they just
have no idea of exactly how, and you can serve to teach them how
to an extent while getting the help you need.
All of the above being said, make no mistake, I know all too well
that you will get plenty of clueless and hostile (or at least very
passive and unwilling to work with you) techs. But there are lots
of folks who will quickly recognize that you are not clueless
about what you need, and that they, while they may be clueless
about how you get to it, can still find a way to meet you in the
middle where you can both get what you want.
I worked for many years in brain injury services, and I used to
tell my patients/clients who were brain injured and trying to make
their way back into "the world at large" that they would
constantly, endlessly, have to be their own best advocates and to
educate the clueless. It's not a choice, because that's another
population that's such a tiny niche in humanity at large that
there will never come a time when most people they meet and
interact with will have any idea about what it is to be brain
injured or what a brain injured individual might need. The thing
that someone who's had a brain injury has going against them that
most blind people will not is the presumption that they are
incapable of understanding a very great many things that they
can. And one of the most difficult self-advocation skills I used
to teach is temper control when the clueless deserve a shovel
upside the head for how obnoxious they're being and keeping
composure so that you can clearly communicate what you need and
what you're capable of.
Almost anyone with almost any disability is saddled with the added
responsibility of having to be advocate and teacher as a part of
their daily life where the majority do not. But I do not ever see
any way that will change. It's the result of relative sizes of
given demographics in the population at large. When you're a
niche, you're a niche. Rebelling against the larger world because
you have that added burden does not do any damage to the larger
world. In fact, by and large, they couldn't care less because in
most instances they don't have to. But that doesn't mean that
those same people are malicious or stupid, just ignorant, and many
really would love to help if they are taught how that's
appropriately given. And, believe me, the last thing you want is
to have them guess, because those guesses will be wrong 99.999% of
Brian -Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042
[Regarding the Supreme Court refusing to hear the case brought by
Texas to overturn the votes certified by 4 states:] /Pleased with
the SCOTUS ruling, but also immediately slightly terrified of
where this crazy train goes next. We should know by now there’s a
bottomless supply of crazy./
~ Brendan Buck, /former adviser to Speakers of the House
Paul Ryan and John Boehner/