Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice
Which gets to a larger question. For sighted people, looking at a computer program interface usually appears to give them all sorts of immediate ways to do common tasks in that program, indicated visually. I learned this, much more than I knew it before, by going into a program in the main window, such as an e-mail program and issuing NVDA key b. that reads every object in the program. I found, in one e-mail program, all sorts of things blind people would usually not be aware of. There are buttons that say things like reply to a message, forward a message, and other common actions. This doesn't even get into using menus or ribbons or dialogs. This is an example of how sighted people are able to do all sorts of things in programs immediately if they understand how such a program works in general. You can switch from one e-mail program to another and immediately or almost immediately be able to perform a lot of basic actions. While I haven't checked with a more general survey, I expect the same to be true in a lot or most programs.toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Its like having light switches labeled or having a dorr handle say "push." Sighted people get information on all sorts of minutia blind people aren't eeven aware of.
And what I am discussing helps explain why blind people require the amouhnt of computer training they receive while sighted people often require little.
Also, what I am discussing exposes another fallacy in your argument, Sarah. You visualize things based on what you know. But if you don't know about the kinds of controls I am describing and you don't think in that way, you are not thinking using what a lot of people use.
I'm not arguing about the importance to some blind peoople of knowing how to translate mouse instructions too keyboard instructions or how to review the screen. I'm saying that your entire model and justification is flawed because you are still using what you know, not all the methods that are available to sighted people, thus you are using circular logic.
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2021 11:26 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice
On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 12:06 PM, Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:
I can't imagine how sightlings navigate complex web pages without rose/forms mode hotkeys to navigate by headings, lists, links, frames, etc. They must compensate by being able to take in entire pages at a glance, this obviating the need for all these navigation choices.-
For someone who can't imagine, literally, how we do it you have given about as accurate a conceptual description as could possibly be given.
When once talking about how screen readers handle things in my earlier days with Joseph Lee, and trying to wrap my head around the virtual cursor, he made the very astute observation you echo above, saying that I, as a sighted person, take in the entire web page as a gestalt, and that's what happens. Even more than just that, just like those of us who hear very quickly start filtering out irrelevant background noise, e.g., fans whirring, a train passing by if we live near tracks, etc., you do the same thing visually for web pages. Those of us who see come as close as is literally possible to "never seeing" lots of the links that get announced at the start and end of pages that almost no one, blind or sighted, ever uses in practice. They instantly "don't register" unless we were to need them, and then, believe it or not, we have to visually search for them using the "eye equivalent" of the commands because we so successfully filter out their presence entirely in day-to-day browsing.
One of the things I hope that someone can eventually come up with as far as screen readers go is AI that allows a screen reader to present information to a blind user in a manner that would be largely consistent with how "your average sighted user" would read a page aloud were they being asked to do so - filtering out the detritus unless it were to be requested. Until I learned about the various reader modes out there I never understood how a screen reader user ever used wikipedia without being driven stark, raving mad within the first 5 minutes. I don't care about the 5000 links per page that are click-through links in the text when I go there, I just want to read it as plain text (which, being sighted, is exactly what I do) then, if something intrigues me that is a link, going back afterward, finding it, then clicking through.
Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042
The depths of denial one can be pushed to by outside forces of disapproval can make you not even recognize yourself to yourself.
~ Brian Vogel