Re: Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read #adminnotice

Jaffar Sidek <jaffar.sidek10@...>

Hi.  I think, really, that the question that should be asked is:

to what point does the need for accessibility borders onto the need to be spoilt and spoon fed, isn't it?  Cheers!

On 6/1/2021 2:37 am, tim wrote:
So you mean like how Microsoft is doing with VS code?
Guess the program-l list has to give up its Microsoft developers on the list to. After all Microsoft only let them join to see how the blind use there product.

On 1/4/2021 3:49 PM, Gene wrote:
It isn't our own language.  Some sighted people use the keyboard.  However, in this era, when everything is defined as a right, requiring manufacturers to produce instructions specifically for blind people is not something I would advocate.  Blind people shouldn't expect to have everything done for such a small group.  You might be able to argue that manuals should have versions written for blind people since in the sighted versions, they use pictures and diagrams and icons, but beyond a certain point, blind people need to take responsibility for what they can do and know.

I have no objection to tutorials being produced to teach blind people how to use programs using terminology and descriptions generally used by blind people, but at what point does this right end?

Should a designer of shareware or freeware be required to have instructions written for blind people if his program is used by a lot of blind people? Are you advocating that every help topic regarding Windows and Microsoft Office have a blindness version?

If a specialized piece of software has one-hundred blind users in America, should the developer be required to have instructions using the keyboard for such a small user base even if a lot more sighted people use it?

-----Original Message----- From: Orlando Enrique Fiol via
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2021 1:31 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Admin's Notes Re List Conduct, Please Read

At 12:45 PM 1/4/2021, Brian Vogel wrote:
The reason I say that is you will, eventually, be given instructions
by a kindly but clueless sighted person who says, "Click on the
paperclip button," because that's what they see and they know,
implicitly, what it does.  It's really handy to have had someone
who's instructing you give you the sighted/announced pairs just
because you're likely to be confronted with only the former at some point.
But I do agree that, particularly if the audience is a blind one, I'd
likely reverse the ordering of the twins, giving the announced name
(or something awfully close to it, I never remember them all,
perfectly) first with the icon description afterward.
Windows is completely translated into dozens of
languages. When Chinese or Japanese speakers do
tech support for their compatriots, they don't
use English terms for Windows elements because
those elements have all been translated into
their languages. While Hindi or Hebrew speakers
understand that they must know English in order
to talk about Windows with non-Indians or
Israelis, they aren't burdened with the task of
learning English just to use Windows.
This is a good analogy because we as blind people
have allowed ourselves be bamboozled out of
rights that all non-English speakers have. Every
software manufacturer knows that if they don't
produce translated versions, they won't sell
product to non-English speakers. Yet, no software
manufacture--large or small--has been made to
feel similar pressure about producing (for lack
of a better word) blind versions or translations.
This is because non-English speakers petition
software manufacturers to produce translated
versions. Those who know English even offer to do
these translations for free. Whereas, we have
people among us insisting that our language is
provincial, inferior and the primary reason we
keep getting "left behind". Sighted Spanish and Portuguese speakers

don't get "left behind" for being unable to use
Windows in English. Microsoft has never
arrogantly maintained that they must learn
English in order to use Windows because that
position would constitute economic suicide. Only
us blind people have been ingrained with such
self-loathing that we would ridiculously insist,
when communicating with each other, to use
exclusively sighted terms such as points, clicks
and icons, when we have a perfectly functional
keyboard-oriented language of our own.
Orlando Enrique Fiol

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