That is why screen readers have ways to turn on or off what you want to hear.

The main problem is people don't want to learn there screen reader. They want it handed to them pre customized to fit them.

With new features coming out in html and code programing I want it to say everything.

Then I can turn off what I don't want.

You learn that by reading the manual and help files for what ever screen reader your using.

Do that and will answer at least 99% of the questions asked on lists.

I have ben using screen readers for over 30 years and still don't know everything  in a screen reader. That is only because most of the features I don't need. When I do need them. I read and see if manual has something and if not then I ask on list.

Most of the time the answer is in the manual or help files.

I've stayed out of this discussion, but I have to say that in large measure, I agree with Gene. I do not care about figures, lists, block quotes, as well as any other nonfunctional symbols, and I want them gone from my screen reading experience. Reading articles with all that garbage is painful. also email messages. List with one item. List with one item. Why have a list with one item, please? I get that some of these can be useful in some situations. But those of us who have been around the web for longer than a couple of years managed quite well without all this and I for one would like to go back there, and only access something like a list if it is actually worth something, i.e. it really is a list, perhaps one of many on a page that I might wish to navigate among with a quicknav key. But bullets and figures and block quotes, forget it. I'm smart enough to figure stuff out from context. Been doing it for decades and I don't need or want the time consuming verbosity. I want to be able to shut everything off that I don't want and I'd like to find it all in one place if possible in settings. 

On 12/15/2021 2:44 PM, Gene wrote:

You said:

The thing is, Gene, if history is any indicator, the maximum verbosity out of the box is not about "most people," but, as I said, beginners.

 

While that is true in various instances, I don’t think it is true when it comes to web ;pages. 

 

This is something I wouldn’t assume in terms of what a lot of users change.  When I see parts of web pages pasted from even many experienced users, I see all the deffault information unchanged.  Block quotes, list notices, etc.  While many people change these things, I suspect far more than you might suspect don’t. 

 

At present, the NVDA philosophy, I don’t know about other screen-readers appears to be, the more default verbosity the better.  IN the Punctuation/symbol pronunciation settings dialog are all sorts of structures of all sorts of shapes.  They are almost all set to be spoken at the none level so you will hear then no matter what level of punctuation you use.  I’ve seen web pages where a shape symbol doesn’t just occur once but is repeated many times.  And even if once, why hear it if it is only a visual symbol directing the eye to something? 

 

The announcement of figure, out of figure adds nothing to my understanding or comprehension.  Its just more words.  It is not user definable. 

 

I’m not saying these options shouldn’t be available.  But I don’t think we need to hear about every shape symbol on a web page by default. 

 

Since I have bloc quote notification turned off, I don’t know how often I come across them.  I looked them up and here is the relevant part of a Google web snippet":

Block quotes are used for direct quotations that are longer than 40 words. They should be offset from the main text and do not include quotation marks. Introduce the block quote on a new line.

 

In short, I could be reading all sorts of articles and come across block quotes a lot.  If I’m reading something, I generally want to read bloc quotes because they are integral parts of the text.  If someone wants them on for some reason, fine but why by default?  And how many people even know what they are and what they will skip if they skip one?  I doubt most people know, so for most people, its just words.

 

I’d really like to see a survey of users to see what elements they actually use and how many most people don’t. 

 

An interesting example is the one brought up by Sarah.  Does Sarah’s example of clicking on a triangle occur often enough to justify it being on as a default setting?  I’ve seen web pages with various shapes that do nothing functional.  I haven’t seen one with a functional symbol. 

 

Is there a way NVDA could discriminate between functionless shape symbols and functional symbols and be set to announce only functional shape ones?  ``

 

I think these things should be discussed among developers and users. 

 

If the topic doesn’t generate much response, then perhaps a lot of people don’t care. 

 

It can be argued that if someone is a student writing something like a term paper who might want all this verbosity on, How do you make it likely that people who need to know about verbosity settings will know about them?  I’m not sure about the answer but also, is it reasonable to have those who don’t use such structures and who are reading to read hear them?

Gene

From: Brian Vogel

Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2021 3:42 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback

 

On Wed, Dec 15, 2021 at 01:58 PM, Gene wrote:

I do object to the amount of verbosity when in web ;pages.  Why is bloc quote on?  I question how many people want to know information about lists.  There may be other notifications most people don’t care about and I think it would be useful to have a survey about that.

-
The thing is, Gene, if history is any indicator, the maximum verbosity out of the box is not about "most people," but, as I said, beginners.

Block quote, particularly in the contexts where it's in use, can make it much easier to navigate between the various levels of blocks of quoted text, or past them.

And I don't think there is ever going to come a day when "most users" are going to be the consideration for the "out of the box" state of verbosity on any screen reader.  It's maximized because those new to screen readers need to know way more precisely what's happening at the outset than either you or I do, and we should also know how to turn off verbosity we don't want.

Discussion regarding announcements that don't allow choice of any sort is an entirey different subject.  And there will be times where the choice made will not make you happy, and others where it will, and that's for the generic you.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

Science has become just another voice in the room; it has lost its platform.  Now, you simply declare your own truth.

       ~ Dr. Paul A. Offit, in New York Times article, How Anti-Vaccine Sentiment Took Hold in the United States, September 23, 2019