Re: NVDA Features feedback


Gene
 

Again, you are using terms incorrectly.  Screen review is not object review.  You use one or the other.  In object review, you can review an object.  You use the same movement commands to review the object you are in as to review the screen.  But you are either in one mode or the other and you are either reviewing the screen or the object you are in.
 
An object may be very small, one button, or very large, an entire document in Notepad.  Using object review and staying in the same object, you can move through the entire document in Notepad.  If you were in screen review, you would be limited to the screen being displayed.  If you are in a dialog and on a button, using object review, unless you move to another object, you will only be in that button.  The button is one object.
 
This is not to say that object review is more limited or less useful than screen review.  There are times when you can get to things using object review you can’t get to in any other way. 
 
Gene

Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2021 2:42 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback
 

No, in screen review if you use the object commands it is much much faster than in windows 8 which I used to use. Yuck!

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2021 12:05 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback

 

In the below message, I said that screen review is often faster and more efficient when you want to move around the current screen and you can’t do so using Windows and program commands.  I was saying that it is often easier and faster than using object navigation in that context.  But with changes in Windows 10, I don’t know how often you can use screen review to move around screens and get information well.  Others who use Windows 10 and 11 may wish to comment on that.  Does my file properties dialog example still apply as an example where screen review works well?

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2021 1:40 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback

 

You are using incorrect terminology and that is part of the confusion.  By default, the object navigator follows your position as you move such as in a list or a document.  I’m not sure what the correct term is but it tracks your position if it can when you move using Windows and program commands.

So if you are on a button which you move to with the arrow keys or tabbing through a dialog, the object navigator will be there.  That is what you are describing but using the wrong term.  In screen review, while your position may change, it doesn’t change to match your current position accurately when you are moving using program or Windows commands. 

 

Also, screen review limits you to the current screen.  Object review doesn’t. 

 

In object review with tracking on, which is the default behavior,if you move to a button in a dialog, for example, and you need to click it using the virtual mouse or using the perform default action command because the button isn’t properly accessible and the space bar or enter don’t work, the object navigator will be on that button in general.  I’ve seen rare instances where the object navigator can’t track properly in part of a program. 

 

There are times when screen review is faster and more efficient to use than object navigation if you are moving to parts of a program that aren’t accessible through Wihndows and keyboard commands.  there are times when you can’t see something using screen review you can using object review and there are times when the opposite is true.  There are times when you have to move out of the object you are in to get to what you want to get to. 

 

and there are times when you use object or screen review to find information efficiently.  If I want to find the size of a file, I open the file properties dialog.  I then go into screen review, its much faster and more convenient in that dialog than using object review, jump to the top of the screen using the screen review command to do so, and quickly move down the screen until I get to the information.  The alternative, letting the dialog read, is inefficient. 

 

Screen review is similar to the JAWS cursor, though the commands are different.  It is often faster and more efficient to use when you want to move around the current screen and you can’t do so using Wihndows or program commands. 

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2021 11:05 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback

 

Actually that’s not the case as much. When you do switch to windows 10/11 you will find this out. I switch to screen review, use arrows and tab as necessaty thern just read the objects as everything is tracked anyway. Now, they did change some stuff up just a few weeks ago but join the windows discussion list for more information on that one. For me screen review stays as the object is tracked and I don’t’ need to switch to object view to read the object my screen review cursor is sitting  on. it’s very rare like maybe 3 times a week and in 1 or two programs, but not for the web or anything. I use the off screen model for that, unlesxs nvda tries to render off screen models for all of the apps we use.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2021 8:23 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback

 

I thought that you never use object navigation and screen review.  On reviewing your messages, I’m not sure what you use on the rare occasions when you use something. 

 

I doubt many people use screen review or object review when they can do things with Windows or program commands.

 

However you use your computer, you may not use programs that require use of object navigation or screen review to any extent.  But there are such programs.  It is my understanding that Windows 10 apps usually require use of object navigation, at least to an extent.  But those who use Windows 10 may wish to comment on that.  It may not be as widespread as I believe. 

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Friday, December 17, 2021 10:04 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback

 

Yeah, when navigating any app I don’t use object nav. It’s tab all the way, only when a button does not read do I switch to screen review then use object nav to see what’s up. You don’t need to actually switch to object nav in order to use the objects in question. It all works in  screen review.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2021 4:44 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback

 

I didn’t say that.  When you can use Windows or program means of navigation that’s fine and I’m not saying object navigation or screen review should be used in such cases.  I’m not being rude, but stating a fact, you don’t understand object navigation if you think you can just use the review keys and not move from object to object or up and down the levels of objects.  There are times when an object is one small item and you can’t move to any extent just using the movement keys such as numpad 7 and 9.  You must move using the move to previous and next object commands to move from one object to another in such cases if the objects are on the same level and you want to work with them.  There are times when you may be in an object and the object you need to be in to work with whatever you want to work with is up one level or down one level from the object you are in.

 

Then there are times when an object may be enormous.  If I open a document in Notepad, it doesn’t matter how large it is, it is all one object and I can move through the entire document with the object navigation commands such as numpad 7 and 9.  I’m not saying there is any reason to move in that way in Notepad.  I’m discussing how objects can be very small or very large.  Screen review, on the other hand gives you the ability to move throughout the screen you are in.  But there are times when you can’t get to things using screen review.  Also, there are times you can’t get to things using object navigation.

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Friday, December 17, 2021 6:15 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback

 

I do, but you seem to say to do everything in object mode, or to switch to it. I’m saying, don’t switch to it at all. Just use your object keys if you have to, and don’t’ go switching views as it is not really necessary.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2021 12:41 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback

 

You seem to think that isn’t what most people do.  I think most people do use the arrow keys for most things or almost everything except where they need to use other means.  No one has advocated using browse mode or screen review where arrow navigation is possible.  But there are times when to get to something, you need to use the other methods. 

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Friday, December 17, 2021 2:03 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback

 

Actually it kind of is not for me. I just use standard windows commands to get around, hardly do I use the 3 views mentioned, or two depending on where you  are, unless I have to get inside of an object. That sounded weird when I typed that, but yeah, same with other screen readers, arrows all the way unless I need to use other cursers so to speak. I’m actually surprised nvda does not announce when it switches views. I think this would alleviate some of the confusion I have.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2021 11:08 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA Features feedback

 

On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 01:43 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

Yeah it’s not screen review but it is, but it isn’t.

-
Sarah, in the context of NVDA, there are three review modes:

  1. Object Review
  2. Document review
  3. Screen review


You are in one of those at any given moment in time.

So it either "is" or "isn't," it can't be both.  It's actually got to be one, and it sounds like Document review.  From the NVDA User guide:

5.6.2. Document Review

When the navigator object is within a browse mode document (e.g. web page) or other complex document (e.g. a Lotus Symphony document), it is possible to switch to the document review mode. The document review mode allows you to review the text of the entire document.

When switching from object review to document review, the review cursor is placed in the document at the position of the navigator object. When moving around the document with review commands, the navigator object is automatically updated to the object found at the current review cursor position.

Note that NVDA will switch to document review from object review automatically when moving around browse mode documents.

--------------
Auto-switching still means that, at any given moment in time, you are still only in one review mode.

--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

The real art of conversation is not only to say the right thing in the right place but to leave unsaid the wrong thing at the tempting moment.

        ~ Dorothy Nevill

 

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