Date   

Re: Electing a new moderator

Gwensinfo
 

Joseph, it sounds like you have an awful lot on your plate. I can understand that, as moderator, you might want to step down so that you could provide more support and help to some of the other focus projects within NVDA. I wish you well. I really think an election though is not the right way to go.

Gwen and the great Orb
sent from my iPhone 5s
"a dog has many friends because he wags his tail and not his tongue "
Anonymous"

On Mar 22, 2016, at 2:12 PM, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Antony,
If I understand Chris, he meant someone who is familiar with NVDA's history, development and key ideas.
To answer the second question: in 2013, at the time of taking office, I was nearing completion of my NVDA tutorials, an active participant in NVDA translations work and was learning NVDA source code and planning Control Usage Assistant add-on (which is now maintained by a member of this list). At this time, I am:
* Soon to be former associate moderator of this list.
* One of the community add-on reviewers and serve as the quarterly add-on release coordinator.
* Produced numerous tutorials, including Welcome to NVDA series (updated in 2015).
* Current maintainer of or have maintained the following NVDA add-ons: Control Usage Assistant (original add-on creator and former maintainer), Enhanced Touch Gestures (add-on creator and maintainer), GoldWave (add-on creator and maintainer), Resource Monitor (current maintainer), StationPlaylist Studio (current maintainer), Windows 10 App Essentials (add-on creator and maintainer).
* The original author of NVDA add-on development guide.
* NVDA translator (Korean).
* Code contributor to NVDA screen reader project (I am the one who wrote case sensitive find routine, let NVDA announce toast notifications in Windows 10, added ability to let NVDA not play startup and shutdown sounds, initiated Outlook Calendar support, maintain a number of third-party NVDA snapshots, and am researching features such as ability to disable individual add-ons and letting NVDA announce notifications in Microsoft Edge).
* Involved in projects related to NVDA, including serving as one of the points of contact regarding NVDA's support for Unified English Braille (UEB) via LibLouis.
* Organized or led initiatives on various gatherings (both local and international scale), including all NVDACon until now.
* Chair of the NVDA Tenth Anniversary Planning Committee, which, among other things, is tasked with organizing NVDACon International 2016.
* Served as one of the many points of contact between users, developers and supporters of NVDA.
Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Joseph




-----Original Message-----
From: Antony Stone [mailto:Antony.Stone@nvda.open.source.it]
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 10:46 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator

I have two questions about this:

1. Who do you mean by "the NVDA establishment"? Do you mean the employees of NV Access Limited, or some other (hopefully larger) group?

2. Was Joseph a part of "the NVDA establishment" when he became list moderator?

Antony.

On Tuesday 22 Mar 2016 at 15:48, Chris Mullins wrote:

I concur with Gene and Laz. Democratic election is not the way to go.
Someone from within the NVDA establishment is required to take on the
role.

Cheers
Chris
--
"In fact I wanted to be John Cleese and it took me some time to realise that the job was already taken."

- Douglas Adams

Please reply to the list;
please *don't* CC me.






Re: Electing a new moderator

 

Hi Antony,
If I understand Chris, he meant someone who is familiar with NVDA's history, development and key ideas.
To answer the second question: in 2013, at the time of taking office, I was nearing completion of my NVDA tutorials, an active participant in NVDA translations work and was learning NVDA source code and planning Control Usage Assistant add-on (which is now maintained by a member of this list). At this time, I am:
* Soon to be former associate moderator of this list.
* One of the community add-on reviewers and serve as the quarterly add-on release coordinator.
* Produced numerous tutorials, including Welcome to NVDA series (updated in 2015).
* Current maintainer of or have maintained the following NVDA add-ons: Control Usage Assistant (original add-on creator and former maintainer), Enhanced Touch Gestures (add-on creator and maintainer), GoldWave (add-on creator and maintainer), Resource Monitor (current maintainer), StationPlaylist Studio (current maintainer), Windows 10 App Essentials (add-on creator and maintainer).
* The original author of NVDA add-on development guide.
* NVDA translator (Korean).
* Code contributor to NVDA screen reader project (I am the one who wrote case sensitive find routine, let NVDA announce toast notifications in Windows 10, added ability to let NVDA not play startup and shutdown sounds, initiated Outlook Calendar support, maintain a number of third-party NVDA snapshots, and am researching features such as ability to disable individual add-ons and letting NVDA announce notifications in Microsoft Edge).
* Involved in projects related to NVDA, including serving as one of the points of contact regarding NVDA's support for Unified English Braille (UEB) via LibLouis.
* Organized or led initiatives on various gatherings (both local and international scale), including all NVDACon until now.
* Chair of the NVDA Tenth Anniversary Planning Committee, which, among other things, is tasked with organizing NVDACon International 2016.
* Served as one of the many points of contact between users, developers and supporters of NVDA.
Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: Antony Stone [mailto:Antony.Stone@nvda.open.source.it]
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 10:46 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator

I have two questions about this:

1. Who do you mean by "the NVDA establishment"? Do you mean the employees of NV Access Limited, or some other (hopefully larger) group?

2. Was Joseph a part of "the NVDA establishment" when he became list moderator?

Antony.

On Tuesday 22 Mar 2016 at 15:48, Chris Mullins wrote:

I concur with Gene and Laz. Democratic election is not the way to go.
Someone from within the NVDA establishment is required to take on the
role.

Cheers
Chris
--
"In fact I wanted to be John Cleese and it took me some time to realise that the job was already taken."

- Douglas Adams

Please reply to the list;
please *don't* CC me.


Re: google chrome comment

Pete <emac00@...>
 

have a look at this:
https://www.chromium.org/getting-involved/dev-channel
  It exists and also has a Canary build. 

On 3/20/2016 8:54 AM, Gene wrote:
I have never seen a browser named Chrome discussed that doesn't refer to the google browser.  I would assume that is the one intended unless the writer specifies otherwise. 
 
Gene
 
Gene

From: Pete
Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2016 1:45 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] google chrome comment

 
  Some clarification please for what variant of chrome is being discussed!  E.G.  google chrome  /  chromewin32  /  etc...


On 3/19/2016 8:12 AM, Gene wrote:
As far as streaming is concerned, that may be the result of what the browser is using as its default streaming program.  Chrome uses HTML5 for streaming on Youtube, for example.  I don't know what Firefox or Internet Explorer uses.  If either one uses Flash as the default streaming player, then results may differ.  Also, we don't know anything about your connection reliability and speed.  I don't like Flash but I don't have pauses, in general, when sites use it to stream. 
 
If Chrome does load pages faster on some sites, that would be something that many users would have to verify. 
If Firefox were significantly slower than Chrome, a lot or most of its long time users, sighted and blind, would have abandoned it by now. 
 
Taking twenty or thirty secondes to load web pages would have resulted in a lot of discussion on list of blind computer users and I have seen none.  I'm not saying that there is no difference.  There may be differences on some pages but nothing like twenty seconds.  And I suspect the differences are so minor that a lot of people don't base their browser use on them. 
 
I'm glad you clarified your point about using more than one browser.  It is important that blind users keep this in mind.  It is also not proper methodology to generalize in terms of performance based on one person's experience.  If someone says that in their experience, they have found this or that, that's one thing.  But blanket statements shouldn't be made that Chrome is faster based on one user's experience.  There are too many factors that might cause differences to generalize. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2016 3:27 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] google chrome comment

Hi all,
I must clear something up. I do not advocate dumping one browser for another. Actually, I use IE 11, Firefox, and Google Chrome. Each browser is best for certain web sites and also what you use the browser for. For example, I like using the mobile Facebook site on IE 11 better than the other two browsers. However, when I play YouTube videos, I like Chrome much better, because the video never pauses or stops altogether. I use Firefox for my banking site. It is good to have two or three browsers, because a web site may act totally different in one browser than in another. On both of my computers running win10, Chrome loads most web pages at least 20 seconds faster than in Firefox and 30 seconds faster than IE 11. It could be my laptops and set up as well. My advise is to have as many tools at your disposal as possible so you can do as many jobs as you can. Take care, and have a great one.
 
 
From: Gene
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2016 8:03 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] google chrome comment
 
Yes, if you want to spend an unreasonable amount to solve captchas.  Rumola is much much cheaper and Webvisum can still be used with earlier versions of NVDA.  If you put a portable version of Firefox on your machine that is version 43 or lower, you can still use Webvisum on sites that require captchas to be solved and you can use the current version of Firefox on all other sites.  It may be that for someone who solves many captchas, this might not be as good a solution but for many, it may be a reasonable one.
 
I keep seeing, David, your claim that Chrome is faster.  How many machines have you compared Fire fox with Chrome?  I doubt that there is any meaningful difference.  I like the Firefox interface more and Firefox has many more popular add ons.  I am very skeptical that dumping firefox is necessarily a good idea and without meaningful comparisons, I shall remain skeptical that there is a meaningful difference in speed. 
 
I have Chrome on my computers because there are sites, now and then, where I get better access with it.  I use Firefox as my main browser. 
 
And as far as streaming is concerned, the browser doesn't stream.  Whatever player is used streams.  I am, again, very skeptical that Chrome is any better at streaming. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2016 5:54 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] google chrome comment
 
There is a new service that will launch soonn called captha Be Gone by
the Mongoose himself Chris Taugh. Check out his brief demo and interview
about on ACB Radio's Main Menu from March 4th.

On 3/18/2016 5:20 PM, Mallard wrote:
> Hello there,
>
> But Webvisum doesn't work on Chrome... How do you solve captchas on
> sites where there is no audio captcha option, or on those that
> supposedly have it, but when you click on it nothing happens?
>
> I hate Rumola... It never worked here, so I would avoid it.
> Ciao,
> Ollie
>
>
>
>
> Il 18/03/2016 21:34, David Moore ha scritto:
>> Hi scott,
>> I am so glad for you. I have Chrome as my default browser as well,
>> and it is so much faster. The same web site loads up twice as fast,
>> and Chrome is great for streaming. If I can be of more help to any of
>> you, just let me know. Have a great one.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message----- From: Scott VanDeWalle
>> Sent: Friday, March 18, 2016 12:40 PM
>> To: nvda@groups.io
>> Subject: [nvda] google chrome comment
>>
>> I'd just like to let yall know i'm up with google chrome now.
>> It seems very very good for the most part.
>> I don't know what the issue was when i tried it before.
>> But, i even set it as my default browser.
>> I still hope edge becomes better because i like to use cortana and if i
>> remember correctly google and cortana don't really work good together,
>> especially when your search engine is not bing.com and the browser edge.
>> Or will the extention chromtana or whatever its called do the same
>> thing?
>> And, again, thanks for the suggestions from  yall and thanks again to
>> David for the tutorial.
>> Just fyi, it stays on my computer and no futher.. smile.
>> thanks
>>
>> Scott
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>






Re: Electing a new moderator

Antony Stone
 

I have two questions about this:

1. Who do you mean by "the NVDA establishment"? Do you mean the employees of
NV Access Limited, or some other (hopefully larger) group?

2. Was Joseph a part of "the NVDA establishment" when he became list
moderator?

Antony.

On Tuesday 22 Mar 2016 at 15:48, Chris Mullins wrote:

I concur with Gene and Laz. Democratic election is not the way to go.
Someone from within the NVDA establishment is required to take on the
role.

Cheers
Chris
--
"In fact I wanted to be John Cleese and it took me some time to realise that
the job was already taken."

- Douglas Adams

Please reply to the list;
please *don't* CC me.


qualifying to manage a list (stupid hash tags)

Kwork
 

Joseph, those are very good points on which to choose a new moderator. I think that another point is that they also need to be respected by the majority of the list members where they will serve, and that's where the on list voting will help. The more that vote on this type of topic, the greater the chance that cooler heads will prevail, and the transition will be a smooth one.
Thank you, Joseph, for all the work you've done with NVDA, and this list, over the past three years.
Travis

----- Original Message -----
From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 11:19 PM
Subject: [nvda] Follow-up: moderator qualifications #ModNotice #AdminNotice

Hi,

 

If you or someone you know fulfills all (yes, ALL) of the following requirements, then please put forth your name or that person’s name as the candidate for the new moderator (note that this isn’t about head moderator position, and our current head moderator is Nimer Jaber):

 

1.       Have used NVDA for the past three years or more.

2.       Have been a member of this forum and other NVDA forums for the past three years or more.

3.       Ability to communicate well, especially when confronting a crisis such as misbehaving members, off-topic messages and such.

4.       Ability to communicate kindly (and with humility) even in the face of adversity (especially during arbitration hearing proceedings).

5.       Willingness to seek advice from moderators and members of this forum when making list-wide decisions.

6.       Familiarity with Groups.IO administration controls.

7.       Ability to serve as a user-side advocate when talking to NV Access and other NVDA developers.

8.       Ability to deliver important news from NV Access such as NVDA release announcements in a timely manner.

9.       Willingness to step down from position of power when appropriate (recalled, on his or her own will and so on).

10.   Willingness to shower members of this list and the wider NVDA community with love and mercy, including to misbehaving members.

11.   Having the servant’s attitude (to serve, not to be served).

12.   Willingness to be accountable and answerable to members of this list and the public.

13.   Must be at least 21 years of age or older (or considered an adult in the country a candidate resides in).

 

Some of you may say, “look, these requirements are too hard.” I believe that, as a public face of this list (alongside other moderators and members), you are responsible for the fate and reputation of this list, and in extension, NVDA community and NVDA screen reader itself. Thus only applications from serious candidates will be accepted (applications will be accepted until early April, and election will be held by end of April so the new moderator can adjust to his or her new role throughout May).

 

Thank you.

Cheers,

Joseph

P.S. The reason for making these requirements tough is because of the following blog post:

http://joslee22590.blogspot.com/2016/03/if-i-die-tonight-2-showering-forum.html?spref=tw

Although the post talks about head moderators, it applies to associate moderators as well. Good luck.


Re: Touchscreens?

rob
 

Hi all

Quick update on the situation.
I upgraded my tablet to windows 10, just for curiosity's sake.
And after fighting for a long time to get narator to not start automatically, and NVDA to do so. I can report that NVDA is working absolutely wonderfully.
True, it takes some getting used to, as it works on the concept of object navigation.
Now, I plan on installing the enhanced touch addon, and I believe that will make things a lot nicer.
It's quick, it's responsive, and honestly I only really have a couple of complaints.
1. the lack of options for navigation, for example, navigating by heading, link, form field, etc. however, I believe this is an option with the enhanced touch addon.

2. typing
Typing is very useable, works the same as touch-typing on iOS, so the letter is entered once you lift your finger. however, NVDA announces button, after every letter, which is a little annoying.

Having said all this, if some pressure was put upon the developers to try and improve touch navigation, it could be a really, really beautiful thing.

Rob

On 21/03/2016 19:18, Christopher-Mark Gilland wrote:
Rob,

I would absolutely love! a demonstration via audio.

Would you be willing to make me one and send via either Sendspace, or preferably Dropbox?

My private e-mail is:

clgilland07@gmail.com

Chris.
---
Christopher Gilland
JAWS Certified, 2016.
Training Instructor.

clgilland07@gmail.com
Phone: (704) 256-8010 Extension 401.
----- Original Message ----- From: "rob" <rob@robgw.net>
To: <nvda@groups.io>
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 2:56 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Touchscreens?


Hi

Well, not strictly NVDA based, but all the same.
Having given up using the tablet with NVDA, I launched narator with a case of morbid curiosity.
To my surprise, it is very straight forward to use, all gestures work as suggested, navigating is simple and straight forward.
I'm able to do basic things very easily, launching apps, browsing the internet, etc. It's just a real shame that typing is exactly as standard typing is on iOS, i.e. having to double tap each letter. If this was fixed, this would not be a bad screen-reader at all in my opinion, based on early views.

If anyone knows if the typing can be fixed, or if anyone would like a demonstration, please let me know either way.

Rob

On 21/03/2016 13:25, Christopher-Mark Gilland wrote:
OK, if you want something with Eloquence, and you want it to be a tablet, and you want touch to work, then check out maybe getting an Android tablet. The Samsung Galaxy lineup is really really nice.

Chris.


-----Original Message-----
From: rob [mailto:rob@robgw.net]
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 5:23 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Touchscreens?

Hi

Certainly I'll be returning the unit, but I won't be buying one with a keyboard.
I wanted something small enough to put in a jacket pocket so I could read on the bus, on the train, etc.
Something that allowed me to read with eloquence.
Of course, a lot of the tablets with keyboards simply look like small laptops, and I already have an 11 inch macbook air.
Oh well, who knows what I'll do.

Rob

On 21/03/2016 09:18, Brian's Mail list account wrote:
:-)
One returns the unit and buys one with a keyboard?

I'll duck behind the sofa to avoid the tomatoes now!
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Chao"
<kevinchao89@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2016 4:41 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Touchscreens?


Hmmm.... This is a bit counter-productive: Input help mode is toggled
with NVDA key+1, but this doesn't work without a keyboard, so how is
one to learn/practice gestures on touch screen-only device?

On Sun, Mar 20, 2016 at 9:26 AM rob <rob@robgw.net> wrote:

Hi chris

The issue is that I honestly can't use the tablet at all the way it
is at the moment, so I'd need a keyboard to be able to install an addon.
I don't even know how useable the tablet would be with nvda running
for a sighted person.

I have a bluetooth keyboard, but obviously can't get into settings
to connect it.

Rob

On 20/03/2016 16:20, Chris wrote:
yeah you do lose some of the touch screen functionality when using
together with a screen reader Narrator is probably the best to use
in conjunction with a touch screen and gestures, but that has its
own issues as youn may know

you may want to try the enhanced gestures add-on for nvda, that
may improve things a bit

good luck



On 20/03/2016 15:56, rob wrote:
Hi folks

Today, I received a linx 8, windows tablet. Running windows 8.1,
after getting set up with some sighted assistance to install NVDA.
and before anyone says it, reading the user guide, I find myself
completely lost and baffled as to how one goes about using a
touchscreen with nvda.

All of the gestures mentioned in the guide, such as, two finger
double tap to open the nvda menu, three finger tap to change
touch modes, flicking from left to right, up/down. double
tapping, fail to register. I get some information when putting my
finger on a random part of the screen, or sliding around, but nothing worth mentioning.

Am I missing something, or is it just very buggy?
also, I'm using nvda 16.1

Regards

Rob













Re: Electing a new moderator

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Hello,

I too agree with Gene. I didn't join this list to vote on who will be the next moderator. I joined in order to discuss NVDA and how programs work with it. I don't have anything more to add.

On 3/22/2016 6:29 AM, Laz wrote:
Hello,

I must say that I wholeheartedly agree with Gene. I will also add that
voting on names of strangers to be elected to an important position
such as a list moderator could end up having an unqualified candidate
who may have other intentions than those mentioned being voted into
the position and given power to do as they secretly intend. Just look
at the track history of politics. List ownership and moderation is not
a democratic process by any means. We have no idea as to the true
character of most list members. I have already seen one proposal for a
candidate which I'm not certain would make a good moderator as I
believe it's an alias of someone else on the list and that's all I'm
going to say about that. I sincerely hope that Nimer will keep the
power of veto and put a stop to any unqualified person being voted
into the role of moderator.

Laz

On 3/22/16, Gene <gsasner@ripco.com> wrote:
I spent a lot of time and thought replying to this message. Now I see that
it was rejected because of restricted hash tags. I shall send it again with
another subject line and I shall make one additional commenbt at the outset

Since I initially wrote my message, I have seen the start of what will
probably be an avalanche of messages regarding nominations and discussions
of nominees. I did not join this list to receive hundreds or thousands of
administration messages nor did most who joined. We joined to discuss NVDA,
not how to run the list nor who should be in charge.

I appreciate the work you have done in moderating the list and I appreciate
your intentions. But this is just not the way to run a list. If you are
determined to run the list as a democracy, please set up a chat subgroup for
those who want to discuss nominations and make submissions or ask that such
submissions be sent to you off list, either or both. The main NVDA list
should be to discuss NVDA and not democratic administrative nor election
matters except to announce the actual election and present information about
the nominees.

Here is what I wrote previously.

I almost never comment on list administration on the list but this is an
exception. If you want to step down, that's your decision and I am not
writing to question or challenge the decision. But generational change,
when the generation in question is probably in its late twenties or early
thirties at most makes no sense as a reason. If you are worried about
succession, then it would be far better to have some mechanism where you
appoint someone to take over with the prior approval of the list owner.

I have never been on, nor ever heard, of a list run like a democracy. There
are good reasons for this. This is not a democracy, where people have
records and attributes that are known to most members regarding list
administration. There a very few active members and most discussion is
about NVDA in some way. If members were asked to vote on who has the most
knowledge of NVDA, for example, there would be some grounds for members to
vote. But this is a list to discuss NVDA. It is not a place where people
display records of leadership and personality that members are aware of and
can use to choose a leader. (I don't even know the names of more than
perhaps ten or twenty members on the list and I know them not because of any
demonstrated personality traits that relate to running the list. I know
them because they discuss NVDA. There is no corellation between that and
being able to determine who has the qualities best suited to run a list.
You may know people well enough yourself to make such a determination and
frankly, in this context, you and the list owner should do so. I shall,
respectfully, not vote in the upcoming election. I am not knowledgeable and
cannot cast an informed meaningful vote and most list members can't cast an
informed meaningful vote either.

If the list were really a democratic institution, we would have people
holding office with campaigns and some sort of mechanisms for people to get
to know and evaluate those who serve and run for office. There would be
periodic elections. If we make a mistake and appoint someone who does not
do a good job in error, this being a list, not a democratic institution, we
have no means of recall or no periodic elections to replace the person. We
are electing someone for an indefinite term with most members having no
meaningful information on which to make a decision.

On every list I've been on, the owner runs the list and makes decisions
relevant to administration and the owner and moderators decide how to divide
up tasks such as moderation. As I said, there are good reasons that lists
are not run as democracies.

And making some sort of divide in generations when the generation in their
late twenties or early thirties has most of its collective life to live is a
really bad idea. The United States Constitution has minimum ages for
assuming different offices. That's because it was believed that knowledge,
wisdom, and maturity increase with age. What about all those who may be in
their forties, fifties, sixties, and beyond who may be better qualified by
the knowledge and experience they have gotten? Are you taking the position
that anyone under the age of thirty, for example will be considered to run
the list but those older won't?

The more I think about the reason you gave for stepping down and the means
you propose to fill the vacancy, the more I realize what a bad rationale and
procedure it is. And a further irony is that you propose a democratic
election to fill the position but you haven't held an election on whether
the list should be run as a democracy or in the traditional or other way.
Isn't that the first thing that should be decided by democratic means if the
list is a democratic institution? Democracy is not suited to all
institutions and this list is one of them.

As I said at the outset, if you want to step down, I have no quarrel with
that decision. That is your decision and I am not writing to question the
decision. But I strongly disagree with the reason given and the procedure
to fill the vacancy.

I considered writing you off list but, if the list is being run as a
democracy, it follows that other list members should know my thoughts on
this matter.

Gene
------ Original Message -----
From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 10:26 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Important moderator's letter: I'd like to request next
generation of NVDA enthusiasts to come to the moderator's seat #ModNotice
#AdminNotice


Dear members of the NVDA International Users list and the wider NVDA
community:



For some, change of generation is a scary thing, while others would say it
is a wonderful way to reflect upon our past and think about the future. As a
moderator of this list and the chair of the NVDA Tenth Anniversary Planning
Committee, I had a chance to think about this today. Specifically, I was
struck by the following thought: If I die tonight, who'll carry on my legacy
and serve as a moderator who'll shower you with more love than I did?



You see, for some time, I thought it is better to let a generational change
happen. We now have members of the next generation who are very enthusiastic
about NVDA and its community, people who are showing leadership potential
and folks who are willing to love and serve you and the wider community. And
I thought that this is a good time to carry this out, seeing that some of
these new enthusiasts are the ones who are actively involved in promoting
NVDA and events related to its tenth anniversary.



Thus, effective May 31, 2016, I'll step down from the moderator position I
held for the past three years. I'd like to request that members of this list
hold a list-wide election to elect the new moderator. I'll remain a member
of this list, obeying the new moderator and serving the NVDA community.



Thank you everyone for your support for the past few years.



Cheers,

Joseph

P.S. My blog post on this decision can be found at:

http://joslee22590.blogspot.com/2016/03/if-i-die-tonight-1-legacy-letting-go-of.html




Re: Electing a new moderator

Gwensinfo
 

I concur. It should not be a popularity contest. It needs to be a thoughtful and it judiciously done process by perhaps the list owner.

Gwen and the great Orb
sent from my iPhone 5s
"a dog has many friends because he wags his tail and not his tongue "
Anonymous"

On Mar 22, 2016, at 11:48 AM, Chris Mullins <cjmullins29@gmail.com> wrote:

I concur with Gene and Laz. Democratic election is not the way to go. Someone from within the NVDA establishment is required to take on the role.

Cheers
Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: Laz [mailto:laz@talkingmp3players.com]
Sent: 22 March 2016 13:30
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator

Hello,

I must say that I wholeheartedly agree with Gene. I will also add that voting on names of strangers to be elected to an important position such as a list moderator could end up having an unqualified candidate who may have other intentions than those mentioned being voted into the position and given power to do as they secretly intend. Just look at the track history of politics. List ownership and moderation is not a democratic process by any means. We have no idea as to the true character of most list members. I have already seen one proposal for a candidate which I'm not certain would make a good moderator as I believe it's an alias of someone else on the list and that's all I'm going to say about that. I sincerely hope that Nimer will keep the power of veto and put a stop to any unqualified person being voted into the role of moderator.

Laz

On 3/22/16, Gene <gsasner@ripco.com> wrote:
I spent a lot of time and thought replying to this message. Now I see
that it was rejected because of restricted hash tags. I shall send it
again with another subject line and I shall make one additional
commenbt at the outset

Since I initially wrote my message, I have seen the start of what will
probably be an avalanche of messages regarding nominations and
discussions of nominees. I did not join this list to receive hundreds
or thousands of administration messages nor did most who joined. We
joined to discuss NVDA, not how to run the list nor who should be in charge.

I appreciate the work you have done in moderating the list and I
appreciate your intentions. But this is just not the way to run a
list. If you are determined to run the list as a democracy, please
set up a chat subgroup for those who want to discuss nominations and
make submissions or ask that such submissions be sent to you off list,
either or both. The main NVDA list should be to discuss NVDA and not
democratic administrative nor election matters except to announce the
actual election and present information about the nominees.

Here is what I wrote previously.

I almost never comment on list administration on the list but this is
an exception. If you want to step down, that's your decision and I am
not writing to question or challenge the decision. But generational
change, when the generation in question is probably in its late
twenties or early thirties at most makes no sense as a reason. If you
are worried about succession, then it would be far better to have some
mechanism where you appoint someone to take over with the prior approval of the list owner.

I have never been on, nor ever heard, of a list run like a democracy.
There are good reasons for this. This is not a democracy, where
people have records and attributes that are known to most members
regarding list administration. There a very few active members and
most discussion is about NVDA in some way. If members were asked to
vote on who has the most knowledge of NVDA, for example, there would
be some grounds for members to vote. But this is a list to discuss
NVDA. It is not a place where people display records of leadership
and personality that members are aware of and can use to choose a
leader. (I don't even know the names of more than perhaps ten or
twenty members on the list and I know them not because of any
demonstrated personality traits that relate to running the list. I
know them because they discuss NVDA. There is no corellation between that and being able to determine who has the qualities best suited to run a list.
You may know people well enough yourself to make such a determination
and frankly, in this context, you and the list owner should do so. I
shall, respectfully, not vote in the upcoming election. I am not
knowledgeable and cannot cast an informed meaningful vote and most
list members can't cast an informed meaningful vote either.

If the list were really a democratic institution, we would have people
holding office with campaigns and some sort of mechanisms for people
to get to know and evaluate those who serve and run for office. There
would be periodic elections. If we make a mistake and appoint someone
who does not do a good job in error, this being a list, not a
democratic institution, we have no means of recall or no periodic
elections to replace the person. We are electing someone for an
indefinite term with most members having no meaningful information on which to make a decision.

On every list I've been on, the owner runs the list and makes
decisions relevant to administration and the owner and moderators
decide how to divide up tasks such as moderation. As I said, there
are good reasons that lists are not run as democracies.

And making some sort of divide in generations when the generation in
their late twenties or early thirties has most of its collective life
to live is a really bad idea. The United States Constitution has
minimum ages for assuming different offices. That's because it was
believed that knowledge, wisdom, and maturity increase with age. What
about all those who may be in their forties, fifties, sixties, and
beyond who may be better qualified by the knowledge and experience
they have gotten? Are you taking the position that anyone under the
age of thirty, for example will be considered to run the list but those older won't?

The more I think about the reason you gave for stepping down and the
means you propose to fill the vacancy, the more I realize what a bad
rationale and procedure it is. And a further irony is that you
propose a democratic election to fill the position but you haven't
held an election on whether the list should be run as a democracy or in the traditional or other way.
Isn't that the first thing that should be decided by democratic means
if the list is a democratic institution? Democracy is not suited to
all institutions and this list is one of them.

As I said at the outset, if you want to step down, I have no quarrel
with that decision. That is your decision and I am not writing to
question the decision. But I strongly disagree with the reason given
and the procedure to fill the vacancy.

I considered writing you off list but, if the list is being run as a
democracy, it follows that other list members should know my thoughts
on this matter.

Gene
------ Original Message -----
From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 10:26 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Important moderator's letter: I'd like to request next
generation of NVDA enthusiasts to come to the moderator's seat
#ModNotice #AdminNotice


Dear members of the NVDA International Users list and the wider NVDA
community:



For some, change of generation is a scary thing, while others would
say it is a wonderful way to reflect upon our past and think about the
future. As a moderator of this list and the chair of the NVDA Tenth
Anniversary Planning Committee, I had a chance to think about this
today. Specifically, I was struck by the following thought: If I die
tonight, who'll carry on my legacy and serve as a moderator who'll shower you with more love than I did?



You see, for some time, I thought it is better to let a generational
change happen. We now have members of the next generation who are very
enthusiastic about NVDA and its community, people who are showing
leadership potential and folks who are willing to love and serve you
and the wider community. And I thought that this is a good time to
carry this out, seeing that some of these new enthusiasts are the ones
who are actively involved in promoting NVDA and events related to its tenth anniversary.



Thus, effective May 31, 2016, I'll step down from the moderator
position I held for the past three years. I'd like to request that
members of this list hold a list-wide election to elect the new
moderator. I'll remain a member of this list, obeying the new moderator and serving the NVDA community.



Thank you everyone for your support for the past few years.



Cheers,

Joseph

P.S. My blog post on this decision can be found at:

http://joslee22590.blogspot.com/2016/03/if-i-die-tonight-1-legacy-lett
ing-go-of.html

--
Affordably priced Accessible Talking MP3 Players, Accessible phones, Bluetooth devices, and accessories http://www.talkingmp3players.com/
Email: laz@talkingmp3players.com
Phone: 727-498-0121
Skype: lazmesa
Personal Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/laz.mesa
Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/Talkingmp3players?_rdr






Re: Electing a new moderator

Chris Mullins
 

I concur with Gene and Laz. Democratic election is not the way to go. Someone from within the NVDA establishment is required to take on the role.

Cheers
Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: Laz [mailto:laz@talkingmp3players.com]
Sent: 22 March 2016 13:30
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator

Hello,

I must say that I wholeheartedly agree with Gene. I will also add that voting on names of strangers to be elected to an important position such as a list moderator could end up having an unqualified candidate who may have other intentions than those mentioned being voted into the position and given power to do as they secretly intend. Just look at the track history of politics. List ownership and moderation is not a democratic process by any means. We have no idea as to the true character of most list members. I have already seen one proposal for a candidate which I'm not certain would make a good moderator as I believe it's an alias of someone else on the list and that's all I'm going to say about that. I sincerely hope that Nimer will keep the power of veto and put a stop to any unqualified person being voted into the role of moderator.

Laz

On 3/22/16, Gene <gsasner@ripco.com> wrote:
I spent a lot of time and thought replying to this message. Now I see
that it was rejected because of restricted hash tags. I shall send it
again with another subject line and I shall make one additional
commenbt at the outset

Since I initially wrote my message, I have seen the start of what will
probably be an avalanche of messages regarding nominations and
discussions of nominees. I did not join this list to receive hundreds
or thousands of administration messages nor did most who joined. We
joined to discuss NVDA, not how to run the list nor who should be in charge.

I appreciate the work you have done in moderating the list and I
appreciate your intentions. But this is just not the way to run a
list. If you are determined to run the list as a democracy, please
set up a chat subgroup for those who want to discuss nominations and
make submissions or ask that such submissions be sent to you off list,
either or both. The main NVDA list should be to discuss NVDA and not
democratic administrative nor election matters except to announce the
actual election and present information about the nominees.

Here is what I wrote previously.

I almost never comment on list administration on the list but this is
an exception. If you want to step down, that's your decision and I am
not writing to question or challenge the decision. But generational
change, when the generation in question is probably in its late
twenties or early thirties at most makes no sense as a reason. If you
are worried about succession, then it would be far better to have some
mechanism where you appoint someone to take over with the prior approval of the list owner.

I have never been on, nor ever heard, of a list run like a democracy.
There are good reasons for this. This is not a democracy, where
people have records and attributes that are known to most members
regarding list administration. There a very few active members and
most discussion is about NVDA in some way. If members were asked to
vote on who has the most knowledge of NVDA, for example, there would
be some grounds for members to vote. But this is a list to discuss
NVDA. It is not a place where people display records of leadership
and personality that members are aware of and can use to choose a
leader. (I don't even know the names of more than perhaps ten or
twenty members on the list and I know them not because of any
demonstrated personality traits that relate to running the list. I
know them because they discuss NVDA. There is no corellation between that and being able to determine who has the qualities best suited to run a list.
You may know people well enough yourself to make such a determination
and frankly, in this context, you and the list owner should do so. I
shall, respectfully, not vote in the upcoming election. I am not
knowledgeable and cannot cast an informed meaningful vote and most
list members can't cast an informed meaningful vote either.

If the list were really a democratic institution, we would have people
holding office with campaigns and some sort of mechanisms for people
to get to know and evaluate those who serve and run for office. There
would be periodic elections. If we make a mistake and appoint someone
who does not do a good job in error, this being a list, not a
democratic institution, we have no means of recall or no periodic
elections to replace the person. We are electing someone for an
indefinite term with most members having no meaningful information on which to make a decision.

On every list I've been on, the owner runs the list and makes
decisions relevant to administration and the owner and moderators
decide how to divide up tasks such as moderation. As I said, there
are good reasons that lists are not run as democracies.

And making some sort of divide in generations when the generation in
their late twenties or early thirties has most of its collective life
to live is a really bad idea. The United States Constitution has
minimum ages for assuming different offices. That's because it was
believed that knowledge, wisdom, and maturity increase with age. What
about all those who may be in their forties, fifties, sixties, and
beyond who may be better qualified by the knowledge and experience
they have gotten? Are you taking the position that anyone under the
age of thirty, for example will be considered to run the list but those older won't?

The more I think about the reason you gave for stepping down and the
means you propose to fill the vacancy, the more I realize what a bad
rationale and procedure it is. And a further irony is that you
propose a democratic election to fill the position but you haven't
held an election on whether the list should be run as a democracy or in the traditional or other way.
Isn't that the first thing that should be decided by democratic means
if the list is a democratic institution? Democracy is not suited to
all institutions and this list is one of them.

As I said at the outset, if you want to step down, I have no quarrel
with that decision. That is your decision and I am not writing to
question the decision. But I strongly disagree with the reason given
and the procedure to fill the vacancy.

I considered writing you off list but, if the list is being run as a
democracy, it follows that other list members should know my thoughts
on this matter.

Gene
------ Original Message -----
From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 10:26 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Important moderator's letter: I'd like to request next
generation of NVDA enthusiasts to come to the moderator's seat
#ModNotice #AdminNotice


Dear members of the NVDA International Users list and the wider NVDA
community:



For some, change of generation is a scary thing, while others would
say it is a wonderful way to reflect upon our past and think about the
future. As a moderator of this list and the chair of the NVDA Tenth
Anniversary Planning Committee, I had a chance to think about this
today. Specifically, I was struck by the following thought: If I die
tonight, who'll carry on my legacy and serve as a moderator who'll shower you with more love than I did?



You see, for some time, I thought it is better to let a generational
change happen. We now have members of the next generation who are very
enthusiastic about NVDA and its community, people who are showing
leadership potential and folks who are willing to love and serve you
and the wider community. And I thought that this is a good time to
carry this out, seeing that some of these new enthusiasts are the ones
who are actively involved in promoting NVDA and events related to its tenth anniversary.



Thus, effective May 31, 2016, I'll step down from the moderator
position I held for the past three years. I'd like to request that
members of this list hold a list-wide election to elect the new
moderator. I'll remain a member of this list, obeying the new moderator and serving the NVDA community.



Thank you everyone for your support for the past few years.



Cheers,

Joseph

P.S. My blog post on this decision can be found at:

http://joslee22590.blogspot.com/2016/03/if-i-die-tonight-1-legacy-lett
ing-go-of.html




--
Affordably priced Accessible Talking MP3 Players, Accessible phones, Bluetooth devices, and accessories http://www.talkingmp3players.com/
Email: laz@talkingmp3players.com
Phone: 727-498-0121
Skype: lazmesa
Personal Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/laz.mesa
Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/Talkingmp3players?_rdr


Re: Why not leave nvda's name the way it is

Irlanda Hernandez
 

Hi, no, I meant NVDA on my galaxy tablet. Uh, yeah windows 7 on my tablet but I meant my tablet. Thanks, and God bless.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher-Mark Gilland" <clgilland07@gmail.com
To: nvda@groups.io
Date sent: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 01:16:29 -0400
Subject: Re: [nvda] Why not leave nvda's name the way it is

Uh, Windows 7 on a Galaxy? Um... yeah, you probably could do it with a lot
of hacking and custom mod/romming, but, whether it would be legal? I dono,
and beside, uh... why? That would be a waist of a darn nice Android tablet,
in my opinion.
---
Christopher Gilland
JAWS Certified, 2016.
Training Instructor.

clgilland07@gmail.com
Phone: (704) 256-8010 Extension 401.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Irlanda Hernandez" <sisterbear80@gmail.com
To: <nvda@groups.io
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 11:58 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Why not leave nvda's name the way it is


Hi I don't have a computer because I ruined mine. So, I need to get me a
windows 7 disk which I cannot find. I have been on top of the NVDA
though. My question is what changes are being made to the NVDA 2016?
Also, here is a hunch but here it goes. May I use NVDA on my galaxy
tablet? Probably a dumb question but I had to ask. Lol! Thanks, God bless
and take care.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lenron" <lenron93@gmail.com
To: nvda@groups.io
Date sent: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 15:11:51 -0500
Subject: Re: [nvda] Why not leave nvda's name the way it is

what issues. NVDA works grand.

On 3/20/16, Kevin Chao <kevinchao89@gmail.com> wrote:
What issues are there with the screen reader?

On Sun, Mar 20, 2016 at 6:23 AM marvin kotler <m.kotler53@gmail.com
wrote:

Good morning list; Marv here. There are enough other issues regarding
the
screen reader itself; so, lets leave the name the way it is; cheers





--
Lenron Brown
Cell: 985-271-2832
Skype: ron.brown762


Re: Electing a new moderator

Laz
 

Hello,

I must say that I wholeheartedly agree with Gene. I will also add that
voting on names of strangers to be elected to an important position
such as a list moderator could end up having an unqualified candidate
who may have other intentions than those mentioned being voted into
the position and given power to do as they secretly intend. Just look
at the track history of politics. List ownership and moderation is not
a democratic process by any means. We have no idea as to the true
character of most list members. I have already seen one proposal for a
candidate which I'm not certain would make a good moderator as I
believe it's an alias of someone else on the list and that's all I'm
going to say about that. I sincerely hope that Nimer will keep the
power of veto and put a stop to any unqualified person being voted
into the role of moderator.

Laz

On 3/22/16, Gene <gsasner@ripco.com> wrote:
I spent a lot of time and thought replying to this message. Now I see that
it was rejected because of restricted hash tags. I shall send it again with
another subject line and I shall make one additional commenbt at the outset

Since I initially wrote my message, I have seen the start of what will
probably be an avalanche of messages regarding nominations and discussions
of nominees. I did not join this list to receive hundreds or thousands of
administration messages nor did most who joined. We joined to discuss NVDA,
not how to run the list nor who should be in charge.

I appreciate the work you have done in moderating the list and I appreciate
your intentions. But this is just not the way to run a list. If you are
determined to run the list as a democracy, please set up a chat subgroup for
those who want to discuss nominations and make submissions or ask that such
submissions be sent to you off list, either or both. The main NVDA list
should be to discuss NVDA and not democratic administrative nor election
matters except to announce the actual election and present information about
the nominees.

Here is what I wrote previously.

I almost never comment on list administration on the list but this is an
exception. If you want to step down, that's your decision and I am not
writing to question or challenge the decision. But generational change,
when the generation in question is probably in its late twenties or early
thirties at most makes no sense as a reason. If you are worried about
succession, then it would be far better to have some mechanism where you
appoint someone to take over with the prior approval of the list owner.

I have never been on, nor ever heard, of a list run like a democracy. There
are good reasons for this. This is not a democracy, where people have
records and attributes that are known to most members regarding list
administration. There a very few active members and most discussion is
about NVDA in some way. If members were asked to vote on who has the most
knowledge of NVDA, for example, there would be some grounds for members to
vote. But this is a list to discuss NVDA. It is not a place where people
display records of leadership and personality that members are aware of and
can use to choose a leader. (I don't even know the names of more than
perhaps ten or twenty members on the list and I know them not because of any
demonstrated personality traits that relate to running the list. I know
them because they discuss NVDA. There is no corellation between that and
being able to determine who has the qualities best suited to run a list.
You may know people well enough yourself to make such a determination and
frankly, in this context, you and the list owner should do so. I shall,
respectfully, not vote in the upcoming election. I am not knowledgeable and
cannot cast an informed meaningful vote and most list members can't cast an
informed meaningful vote either.

If the list were really a democratic institution, we would have people
holding office with campaigns and some sort of mechanisms for people to get
to know and evaluate those who serve and run for office. There would be
periodic elections. If we make a mistake and appoint someone who does not
do a good job in error, this being a list, not a democratic institution, we
have no means of recall or no periodic elections to replace the person. We
are electing someone for an indefinite term with most members having no
meaningful information on which to make a decision.

On every list I've been on, the owner runs the list and makes decisions
relevant to administration and the owner and moderators decide how to divide
up tasks such as moderation. As I said, there are good reasons that lists
are not run as democracies.

And making some sort of divide in generations when the generation in their
late twenties or early thirties has most of its collective life to live is a
really bad idea. The United States Constitution has minimum ages for
assuming different offices. That's because it was believed that knowledge,
wisdom, and maturity increase with age. What about all those who may be in
their forties, fifties, sixties, and beyond who may be better qualified by
the knowledge and experience they have gotten? Are you taking the position
that anyone under the age of thirty, for example will be considered to run
the list but those older won't?

The more I think about the reason you gave for stepping down and the means
you propose to fill the vacancy, the more I realize what a bad rationale and
procedure it is. And a further irony is that you propose a democratic
election to fill the position but you haven't held an election on whether
the list should be run as a democracy or in the traditional or other way.
Isn't that the first thing that should be decided by democratic means if the
list is a democratic institution? Democracy is not suited to all
institutions and this list is one of them.

As I said at the outset, if you want to step down, I have no quarrel with
that decision. That is your decision and I am not writing to question the
decision. But I strongly disagree with the reason given and the procedure
to fill the vacancy.

I considered writing you off list but, if the list is being run as a
democracy, it follows that other list members should know my thoughts on
this matter.

Gene
------ Original Message -----
From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 10:26 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Important moderator's letter: I'd like to request next
generation of NVDA enthusiasts to come to the moderator's seat #ModNotice
#AdminNotice


Dear members of the NVDA International Users list and the wider NVDA
community:



For some, change of generation is a scary thing, while others would say it
is a wonderful way to reflect upon our past and think about the future. As a
moderator of this list and the chair of the NVDA Tenth Anniversary Planning
Committee, I had a chance to think about this today. Specifically, I was
struck by the following thought: If I die tonight, who'll carry on my legacy
and serve as a moderator who'll shower you with more love than I did?



You see, for some time, I thought it is better to let a generational change
happen. We now have members of the next generation who are very enthusiastic
about NVDA and its community, people who are showing leadership potential
and folks who are willing to love and serve you and the wider community. And
I thought that this is a good time to carry this out, seeing that some of
these new enthusiasts are the ones who are actively involved in promoting
NVDA and events related to its tenth anniversary.



Thus, effective May 31, 2016, I'll step down from the moderator position I
held for the past three years. I'd like to request that members of this list
hold a list-wide election to elect the new moderator. I'll remain a member
of this list, obeying the new moderator and serving the NVDA community.



Thank you everyone for your support for the past few years.



Cheers,

Joseph

P.S. My blog post on this decision can be found at:

http://joslee22590.blogspot.com/2016/03/if-i-die-tonight-1-legacy-letting-go-of.html



--
Affordably priced Accessible Talking MP3 Players, Accessible phones,
Bluetooth devices, and accessories
http://www.talkingmp3players.com/
Email: laz@talkingmp3players.com
Phone: 727-498-0121
Skype: lazmesa
Personal Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/laz.mesa
Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/Talkingmp3players?_rdr


Re: Electing a new moderator

Angela Delicata
 

Same happened to me, the post was rejected.
so, I reply again by saying for me Joseph did a great job and am sorry he decided to leave the position to someone else.
Hope the new moderator wil lbe able to fulfil all requirements.
best.
Angela from Italy


Il 22/03/2016 12:17, Gene ha scritto:
I spent a lot of time and thought replying to this message. Now I see that it was rejected because of restricted hash tags. I shall send it again with another subject line and I shall make one additional commenbt at the outset

Since I initially wrote my message, I have seen the start of what will probably be an avalanche of messages regarding nominations and discussions of nominees. I did not join this list to receive hundreds or thousands of administration messages nor did most who joined. We joined to discuss NVDA, not how to run the list nor who should be in charge.

I appreciate the work you have done in moderating the list and I appreciate your intentions. But this is just not the way to run a list. If you are determined to run the list as a democracy, please set up a chat subgroup for those who want to discuss nominations and make submissions or ask that such submissions be sent to you off list, either or both. The main NVDA list should be to discuss NVDA and not democratic administrative nor election matters except to announce the actual election and present information about the nominees.

Here is what I wrote previously.

I almost never comment on list administration on the list but this is an exception. If you want to step down, that's your decision and I am not writing to question or challenge the decision. But generational change, when the generation in question is probably in its late twenties or early thirties at most makes no sense as a reason. If you are worried about succession, then it would be far better to have some mechanism where you appoint someone to take over with the prior approval of the list owner.

I have never been on, nor ever heard, of a list run like a democracy. There are good reasons for this. This is not a democracy, where people have records and attributes that are known to most members regarding list administration. There a very few active members and most discussion is about NVDA in some way. If members were asked to vote on who has the most knowledge of NVDA, for example, there would be some grounds for members to vote. But this is a list to discuss NVDA. It is not a place where people display records of leadership and personality that members are aware of and can use to choose a leader. (I don't even know the names of more than perhaps ten or twenty members on the list and I know them not because of any demonstrated personality traits that relate to running the list. I know them because they discuss NVDA. There is no corellation between that and being able to determine who has the qualities best suited to run a list. You may know people well enough your
self to make such a determination and frankly, in this context, you and the list owner should do so. I shall, respectfully, not vote in the upcoming election. I am not knowledgeable and cannot cast an informed meaningful vote and most list members can't cast an informed meaningful vote either.

If the list were really a democratic institution, we would have people holding office with campaigns and some sort of mechanisms for people to get to know and evaluate those who serve and run for office. There would be periodic elections. If we make a mistake and appoint someone who does not do a good job in error, this being a list, not a democratic institution, we have no means of recall or no periodic elections to replace the person. We are electing someone for an indefinite term with most members having no meaningful information on which to make a decision.

On every list I've been on, the owner runs the list and makes decisions relevant to administration and the owner and moderators decide how to divide up tasks such as moderation. As I said, there are good reasons that lists are not run as democracies.

And making some sort of divide in generations when the generation in their late twenties or early thirties has most of its collective life to live is a really bad idea. The United States Constitution has minimum ages for assuming different offices. That's because it was believed that knowledge, wisdom, and maturity increase with age. What about all those who may be in their forties, fifties, sixties, and beyond who may be better qualified by the knowledge and experience they have gotten? Are you taking the position that anyone under the age of thirty, for example will be considered to run the list but those older won't?

The more I think about the reason you gave for stepping down and the means you propose to fill the vacancy, the more I realize what a bad rationale and procedure it is. And a further irony is that you propose a democratic election to fill the position but you haven't held an election on whether the list should be run as a democracy or in the traditional or other way. Isn't that the first thing that should be decided by democratic means if the list is a democratic institution? Democracy is not suited to all institutions and this list is one of them.

As I said at the outset, if you want to step down, I have no quarrel with that decision. That is your decision and I am not writing to question the decision. But I strongly disagree with the reason given and the procedure to fill the vacancy.

I considered writing you off list but, if the list is being run as a democracy, it follows that other list members should know my thoughts on this matter.

Gene
------ Original Message -----
From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 10:26 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Important moderator's letter: I'd like to request next generation of NVDA enthusiasts to come to the moderator's seat #ModNotice #AdminNotice


Dear members of the NVDA International Users list and the wider NVDA community:



For some, change of generation is a scary thing, while others would say it is a wonderful way to reflect upon our past and think about the future. As a moderator of this list and the chair of the NVDA Tenth Anniversary Planning Committee, I had a chance to think about this today. Specifically, I was struck by the following thought: If I die tonight, who'll carry on my legacy and serve as a moderator who'll shower you with more love than I did?



You see, for some time, I thought it is better to let a generational change happen. We now have members of the next generation who are very enthusiastic about NVDA and its community, people who are showing leadership potential and folks who are willing to love and serve you and the wider community. And I thought that this is a good time to carry this out, seeing that some of these new enthusiasts are the ones who are actively involved in promoting NVDA and events related to its tenth anniversary.



Thus, effective May 31, 2016, I'll step down from the moderator position I held for the past three years. I'd like to request that members of this list hold a list-wide election to elect the new moderator. I'll remain a member of this list, obeying the new moderator and serving the NVDA community.



Thank you everyone for your support for the past few years.



Cheers,

Joseph

P.S. My blog post on this decision can be found at:

http://joslee22590.blogspot.com/2016/03/if-i-die-tonight-1-legacy-letting-go-of.html




Re: Admin's Note: Follow-up: moderator qualifications #adminnotice

Nimer Jaber
 

Hello everyone,
Let me just say that I am very sad by Joseph's departure, however I do understand and no matter what anybody might believe, Joseph has my total and complete support in all that he does.

Now, Joseph outlined the requirements to be a moderator of this list. I would strongly urge everyone to reflect seriously about this decision before putting your name down, and in particular the aspect about service and humility.  If you would like to apply for the moderator position, please send your name and a written piece detailing your response to the qualifications above. This will not only help me determine your written style, but also it will help me and the list know that they are electing an individual that is going to take this position seriously. Once Joseph and I have given enough time for people to make this consideration, at least two weeks, we will announce the procedure for voting process.

Thank you all for your continued support, and please send your kind thoughts to Joseph so that he knows that all of the work he has done is truly appreciated.

On 22-Mar-16 01:19, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,

 

If you or someone you know fulfills all (yes, ALL) of the following requirements, then please put forth your name or that person’s name as the candidate for the new moderator (note that this isn’t about head moderator position, and our current head moderator is Nimer Jaber):

 

1.       Have used NVDA for the past three years or more.

2.       Have been a member of this forum and other NVDA forums for the past three years or more.

3.       Ability to communicate well, especially when confronting a crisis such as misbehaving members, off-topic messages and such.

4.       Ability to communicate kindly (and with humility) even in the face of adversity (especially during arbitration hearing proceedings).

5.       Willingness to seek advice from moderators and members of this forum when making list-wide decisions.

6.       Familiarity with Groups.IO administration controls.

7.       Ability to serve as a user-side advocate when talking to NV Access and other NVDA developers.

8.       Ability to deliver important news from NV Access such as NVDA release announcements in a timely manner.

9.       Willingness to step down from position of power when appropriate (recalled, on his or her own will and so on).

10.   Willingness to shower members of this list and the wider NVDA community with love and mercy, including to misbehaving members.

11.   Having the servant’s attitude (to serve, not to be served).

12.   Willingness to be accountable and answerable to members of this list and the public.

13.   Must be at least 21 years of age or older (or considered an adult in the country a candidate resides in).

 

Some of you may say, “look, these requirements are too hard.” I believe that, as a public face of this list (alongside other moderators and members), you are responsible for the fate and reputation of this list, and in extension, NVDA community and NVDA screen reader itself. Thus only applications from serious candidates will be accepted (applications will be accepted until early April, and election will be held by end of April so the new moderator can adjust to his or her new role throughout May).

 

Thank you.

Cheers,

Joseph

P.S. The reason for making these requirements tough is because of the following blog post:

http://joslee22590.blogspot.com/2016/03/if-i-die-tonight-2-showering-forum.html?spref=tw

Although the post talks about head moderators, it applies to associate moderators as well. Good luck.



Re: Electing a new moderator

Gene
 

I spent a lot of time and thought replying to this message.  Now I see that it was rejected because of restricted hash tags.  I shall send it again with another subject line and I shall make one additional commenbt at the outset
 
Since I initially wrote my message, I have seen the start of what will probably be an avalanche of messages regarding nominations and discussions of nominees.  I did not join this list to receive hundreds or thousands of administration messages nor did most who joined.  We joined to discuss NVDA, not how to run the list nor who should be in charge. 
 
I appreciate the work you have done in moderating the list and I appreciate your intentions.  But this is just not the way to run a list.  If you are determined to run the list as a democracy, please set up a chat subgroup for those who want to discuss nominations and make submissions or ask that such submissions be sent to you off list, either or both.  The main NVDA list should be to discuss NVDA and not democratic administrative nor election matters except to announce the actual election and present information about the nominees.  
 
Here is what I wrote previously.
 
I almost never comment on list administration on the list but this is an exception.  If you want to step down, that's your decision and I am not writing to question or challenge the decision.  But generational change, when the generation in question is probably in its late twenties or early thirties at most makes no sense as a reason.  If you are worried about succession, then it would be far better to have some mechanism where you appoint someone to take over with the prior approval of the list owner.
 
I have never been on, nor ever heard, of a list run like a democracy.  There are good reasons for this.  This is not a democracy, where people have records and attributes that are known to most members regarding list administration.  There a very few active members and most discussion is about NVDA in some way.  If members were asked to vote on who has the most knowledge of NVDA, for example, there would be some grounds for members to vote.  But this is a list to discuss NVDA.  It is not a place where people display records of leadership and personality that members are aware of and can use to choose a leader.  (I don't even know the names of more than perhaps ten or twenty members on the list and I know them not because of any demonstrated personality traits that relate to running the list.  I know them because they discuss NVDA.  There is no corellation between that and being able to determine who has the qualities best suited to run a list.  You may know people well enough yourself to make such a determination and frankly, in this context, you and the list owner should do so.  I shall, respectfully, not vote in the upcoming election.  I am not knowledgeable and cannot cast an informed meaningful vote and most list members can't cast an informed meaningful vote either. 
 
If the list were really a democratic institution, we would have people holding office with campaigns and some sort of mechanisms for people to get to know and evaluate those who serve and run for office.  There would be periodic elections.  If we make a mistake and appoint someone who does not do a good job in error, this being a list, not a democratic institution, we have no means of recall or no periodic elections to replace the person.  We are electing someone for an indefinite term with most members having no meaningful information on which to make a decision. 
 
On every list I've been on, the owner runs the list and makes decisions relevant to administration and the owner and moderators decide how to divide up tasks such as moderation.  As I said, there are good reasons that lists are not run as democracies. 
 
And making some sort of divide in generations when the generation in their late twenties or early thirties has most of its collective life to live is a really bad idea.  The United States Constitution has minimum ages for assuming different offices.  That's because it was believed that knowledge, wisdom, and maturity increase with age.  What about all those who may be in their forties, fifties, sixties, and beyond who may be better qualified by the knowledge and experience they have gotten?  Are you taking the position that anyone under the age of thirty, for example will be considered to run the list but those older won't? 
 
The more I think about the reason you gave for stepping down and the means you propose to fill the vacancy, the more I realize what a bad rationale and procedure it is.  And a further irony is that you propose a democratic election to fill the position but you haven't held an election on whether the list should be run as a democracy or in the traditional or other way.  Isn't that the first thing that should be decided by democratic means if the list is a democratic institution?  Democracy is not suited to all institutions and this list is one of them. 
 
As I said at the outset, if you want to step down, I have no quarrel with that decision.  That is your decision and I am not writing to question the decision.  But I strongly disagree with the reason given and the procedure to fill the vacancy.
 
I considered writing you off list but, if the list is being run as a democracy, it follows that other list members should know my thoughts on this matter. 
 
Gene

------ Original Message -----
From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 10:26 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Important moderator's letter: I'd like to request next generation of NVDA enthusiasts to come to the moderator's seat #ModNotice #AdminNotice
 

Dear members of the NVDA International Users list and the wider NVDA community:
 
 
 
For some, change of generation is a scary thing, while others would say it is a wonderful way to reflect upon our past and think about the future. As a moderator of this list and the chair of the NVDA Tenth Anniversary Planning Committee, I had a chance to think about this today. Specifically, I was struck by the following thought: If I die tonight, who'll carry on my legacy and serve as a moderator who'll shower you with more love than I did?
 
 
 
You see, for some time, I thought it is better to let a generational change happen. We now have members of the next generation who are very enthusiastic about NVDA and its community, people who are showing leadership potential and folks who are willing to love and serve you and the wider community. And I thought that this is a good time to carry this out, seeing that some of these new enthusiasts are the ones who are actively involved in promoting NVDA and events related to its tenth anniversary.
 
 
 
Thus, effective May 31, 2016, I'll step down from the moderator position I held for the past three years. I'd like to request that members of this list hold a list-wide election to elect the new moderator. I'll remain a member of this list, obeying the new moderator and serving the NVDA community.
 
 
 
Thank you everyone for your support for the past few years.
 
 
 
Cheers,
 
Joseph
 
P.S. My blog post on this decision can be found at:
 
 
 
 


Re: Regarding Joseph Lee's blog post

Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>
 

Ben, I completely understand your dilemma with not filling all the requirements, and appreciate your honesty.

Joseph, I, too, read your blog post, and was nearly move to tears.

You have such a warm heart for people. What a ministry! Don't ever let that compassion leave your spirit, brother!

Have a great day, and God bless, and yes. You are forgiven.
---
Christopher Gilland
JAWS Certified, 2016.
Training Instructor.

clgilland07@gmail.com
Phone: (704) 256-8010 Extension 401.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ben J. Bloomgren" <bbloomgren@icloud.com>
To: <nvda@groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 6:00 AM
Subject: [nvda] Regarding Joseph Lee's blog post


Joseph, list and all,

I thank you for having been our moderator for as long as you have been. I also thank Chris Gilland for having submitted my name for consideration as a future moderator. However, after having read the final paragraph of the blog post which you cited, I'm unworthy of this position. I don't fulfill all the requirements, even though there are only two which I don't fulfill. Through his blood, you are forgiven, as you requested in that paragraph. I promise, by the way, that that'll be the last religious comment that I'll make publically. Because of that entry, I would really like to get to know you further off list. By the way, you've got a reader! I'm gonna throw your blog's RSS feed into my Lire.

I've enjoyed having you as a moderator, being how compassionate your heart is. I hope that this list will continue long into the future.

Sincerely,

Ben Bloomgren


Regarding Joseph Lee's blog post

Ben J. Bloomgren
 

Joseph, list and all,

I thank you for having been our moderator for as long as you have been. I also thank Chris Gilland for having submitted my name for consideration as a future moderator. However, after having read the final paragraph of the blog post which you cited, I'm unworthy of this position. I don't fulfill all the requirements, even though there are only two which I don't fulfill. Through his blood, you are forgiven, as you requested in that paragraph. I promise, by the way, that that'll be the last religious comment that I'll make publically. Because of that entry, I would really like to get to know you further off list. By the way, you've got a reader! I'm gonna throw your blog's RSS feed into my Lire.

I've enjoyed having you as a moderator, being how compassionate your heart is. I hope that this list will continue long into the future.

Sincerely,

Ben Bloomgren


Re: KeyBoard Nonresponsive On Win10 Machine After Installing NVDA2016.1

Austin Pinto <austinpinto.xaviers@...>
 

sometimes deu to some unknown reason the login screen gets stuck even
after entering the proper password if you have already not then try
restarting the system.
if the problem doesnt solve then after nvda starts press windows enter
and narrator should start once narrator starts you will see the
keyboard become responsive.
press windows enter again to stop narrator and login
some times nvda doesnt read the contents of the login screen it is
only when you move the mouse or start narrator nvda starts reading.

On 3/22/16, Shaun Everiss <sm.everiss@gmail.com> wrote:

hmm that shouldn't hhappen, you may need sighted help to login and
restore then try again.
Have you tried a regular keyboard.
Have you tried your keyboard and mouse on another system?
Is that system the mouse the keyboard the boards, are they wireless?
Batteries in that case its why I eventually abandoned wireless boards.
The os is not working, try getting it fixed.


On 22/03/2016 11:51 a.m., James Robinson wrote:
Hello List!

After installing NVDA2016.1 on my Win10 Machine, my keyboard has somehow
become nonresponsive, but my mouse still works; I can move the mouse
around and eventually the system will say “logon screen stuff and edit in
the voice of my default screenreader; could I have accidentally turned
something off or muted my system; I tried a second keyboard by changing
the wireless device USB and trying its accompanying keyboard and mouse and
the problem persists; and anyway I hope someone has some idea of what is
happening to my system and can give me some suggestions on what to do to
try to solve it.

One additional thing: The shortcut combo of “CTRL+ALT+N is also the
system shortcut for the SAmNet Systemt; I switched the shortcut for the
Samnet program to another shortcut key but NVDA’s shortcut still does not
work; should I re-enter the NVDA shortcut and see if it works.

Thanks for your help.

Sincerely,


James Arthur Robinson, Sr., President
Jardata Corporation


--
search for me on facebook, google+, orkut..
austinpinto.xaviers@gmail.com
follow me on twitter.
austinmpinto
contact me on skype.
austin.pinto3


mod position

Doug Oliver
 

Doug Oliver. 

 

From: Joseph Lee [mailto:joseph.lee22590@...]
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 1:19 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Follow-up: moderator qualifications #ModNotice #AdminNotice

 

Hi,

 

If you or someone you know fulfills all (yes, ALL) of the following requirements, then please put forth your name or that person’s name as the candidate for the new moderator (note that this isn’t about head moderator position, and our current head moderator is Nimer Jaber):

 

1.       Have used NVDA for the past three years or more.

2.       Have been a member of this forum and other NVDA forums for the past three years or more.

3.       Ability to communicate well, especially when confronting a crisis such as misbehaving members, off-topic messages and such.

4.       Ability to communicate kindly (and with humility) even in the face of adversity (especially during arbitration hearing proceedings).

5.       Willingness to seek advice from moderators and members of this forum when making list-wide decisions.

6.       Familiarity with Groups.IO administration controls.

7.       Ability to serve as a user-side advocate when talking to NV Access and other NVDA developers.

8.       Ability to deliver important news from NV Access such as NVDA release announcements in a timely manner.

9.       Willingness to step down from position of power when appropriate (recalled, on his or her own will and so on).

10.   Willingness to shower members of this list and the wider NVDA community with love and mercy, including to misbehaving members.

11.   Having the servant’s attitude (to serve, not to be served).

12.   Willingness to be accountable and answerable to members of this list and the public.

13.   Must be at least 21 years of age or older (or considered an adult in the country a candidate resides in).

 

Some of you may say, “look, these requirements are too hard.” I believe that, as a public face of this list (alongside other moderators and members), you are responsible for the fate and reputation of this list, and in extension, NVDA community and NVDA screen reader itself. Thus only applications from serious candidates will be accepted (applications will be accepted until early April, and election will be held by end of April so the new moderator can adjust to his or her new role throughout May).

 

Thank you.

Cheers,

Joseph

P.S. The reason for making these requirements tough is because of the following blog post:

http://joslee22590.blogspot.com/2016/03/if-i-die-tonight-2-showering-forum.html?spref=tw

Although the post talks about head moderators, it applies to associate moderators as well. Good luck.


Follow-up: moderator qualifications #adminnotice

 

Hi,

 

If you or someone you know fulfills all (yes, ALL) of the following requirements, then please put forth your name or that person’s name as the candidate for the new moderator (note that this isn’t about head moderator position, and our current head moderator is Nimer Jaber):

 

1.       Have used NVDA for the past three years or more.

2.       Have been a member of this forum and other NVDA forums for the past three years or more.

3.       Ability to communicate well, especially when confronting a crisis such as misbehaving members, off-topic messages and such.

4.       Ability to communicate kindly (and with humility) even in the face of adversity (especially during arbitration hearing proceedings).

5.       Willingness to seek advice from moderators and members of this forum when making list-wide decisions.

6.       Familiarity with Groups.IO administration controls.

7.       Ability to serve as a user-side advocate when talking to NV Access and other NVDA developers.

8.       Ability to deliver important news from NV Access such as NVDA release announcements in a timely manner.

9.       Willingness to step down from position of power when appropriate (recalled, on his or her own will and so on).

10.   Willingness to shower members of this list and the wider NVDA community with love and mercy, including to misbehaving members.

11.   Having the servant’s attitude (to serve, not to be served).

12.   Willingness to be accountable and answerable to members of this list and the public.

13.   Must be at least 21 years of age or older (or considered an adult in the country a candidate resides in).

 

Some of you may say, “look, these requirements are too hard.” I believe that, as a public face of this list (alongside other moderators and members), you are responsible for the fate and reputation of this list, and in extension, NVDA community and NVDA screen reader itself. Thus only applications from serious candidates will be accepted (applications will be accepted until early April, and election will be held by end of April so the new moderator can adjust to his or her new role throughout May).

 

Thank you.

Cheers,

Joseph

P.S. The reason for making these requirements tough is because of the following blog post:

http://joslee22590.blogspot.com/2016/03/if-i-die-tonight-2-showering-forum.html?spref=tw

Although the post talks about head moderators, it applies to associate moderators as well. Good luck.


Re: Note about Joseph's moderator message

Doug Oliver
 

I’m also wanting to be a mod as well.

Thanks,

Doug.

 

From: Joseph Lee [mailto:joseph.lee22590@...]
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 12:51 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Note about Joseph's moderator message

 

Hi Chris,

If Ben is willing to let go of his new moderator position in the future (on his own will), then yes, please do put his name forward as a candidate. I’ll post a follow-up message detailing qualifications.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: Christopher-Mark Gilland [mailto:clgilland07@...]
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 10:33 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Note about Joseph's moderator message
Importance: High

 

For some reason I cannot get my message to go through, even after removing the hashtags from the subject.

 

Therefore, I'm taking it upon myself to intentionally change the subject line, so that the message will properly go through.  Please see below regarding my response about Joseph handing down his moderator access.

 

I'd like to appoint my friend Ben J Bloomgren!  He would be absolutely perfect for this job!  Ironically, I've known him since 2006, and he is a bigtime
NVDA user.  His skill in helping me over the years get familiar with NVDA has been incredible!  I never ever could have gotten where I am with the program
today had it not been for him.
 
What's even more, Ben is so kind, and so gentle!  He has been so patient with myself and other friends.  There have been times with NVDA that I have been
so frustrated, I just wanted to scream, but he's always been there to lend a hand, and an ear to vent to, and always has systematically helped me look
through the problem little by little until I better understood the solution.  So, I dont' don't know how many of you would agree, but I am definitely nominating
Ben as the new mod.
 
I trust you'll cast in my vote!
---
Christopher Gilland
JAWS Certified, 2016.
Training Instructor.
 
clgilland07@...
Phone: (704) 256-8010 Extension 401.