Date   

Re: Very concerned, was: qualifying to manage a list (stupid hash tags)

Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>
 

Unlike Gene, and others, I must say I do not concur with them.  If anything, I actually am with Travis, AKA, Kwork, on this one.  Joseph has done a magnificent job, and the fact that he was man enough to step up and say, I don't feel that I can do this anymore adiquitly took lots of courage!  I'm very proud of him for being so honest and so up front, yet being so respectful to all of us in how he did things.  To his credit, I think we all need to give Mr. Lee a bit of a break.  I really can tell in my heart that he truly, truly does care, and is trying his darndest, contrary to what a lot of you all may think, or believe.
 
He's not burnt out.  I had a member yesterday who will be 100% left nameless, who called me at the phone number listed in my signature.
 
He or she kept asking me over and over again if I felt Joseph was burned out.  For the record, let me just say this.  I had planned today to talk to this person more if the questions continued, but honestly... look... he/she called me on my tech support line, and when I said I'm not here to play the middle man in this, go ask Joseph directly, go read his blog post which explains everything of his reasonings, they didn't apparently do so.  I have no issue talking to others, including this member both as a friend, and as a business related thing, but don't! put me as the middle man, off business hours or not.  That really put me in a very uncomfortable position yesterday. I felt put on the immediate spot, as I didn't want to say anything privately or publicly, and be taken as being rude, but I neither wanted to  hold back and not say how I felt about things.
 
I'm just a member of the list, and a fairly new one at that.  Just because I put my work phone number in my signature doesn't mean I did so, so that people could call me about list admin duties.  I'm not a mod, nor an admin, nor wish to be frankly.
 
My point is, if Joseph really were "burnt out," quote unquote, then don't you think he probably wouldn't have been so willing to explain on his blog?  He posted that link for a reason, and that reason wasn't to have people just ignore it, then later wonder.  It's the whole shoot and kill now, ask questions later principle.  It shouldn't be that way.  Joseph gave you all a resource to look at, if you're wondering, so, for goodness sake, use it if you're wonderring.  I, shouldn't have to be the one to clear this up for everyone on the list.  It's not my responsibility, nor my problem.
 
Again, sorry to be so brutally direct about this statement, but I had to say something before this got more out of hand than it already has, and I beg the admins' pardon for having to say this publicly with my utmost of respect for them.
---
Christopher Gilland
JAWS Certified, 2016.
Training Instructor.
 
clgilland07@...
Phone: (704) 256-8010 Extension 401.

----- Original Message -----
From: Kwork
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 12:32 PM
Subject: [nvda] qualifying to manage a list (stupid hash tags)

Joseph, those are very good points on which to choose a new moderator. I think that another point is that they also need to be respected by the majority of the list members where they will serve, and that's where the on list voting will help. The more that vote on this type of topic, the greater the chance that cooler heads will prevail, and the transition will be a smooth one.
Thank you, Joseph, for all the work you've done with NVDA, and this list, over the past three years.
Travis
----- Original Message -----
From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 11:19 PM
Subject: [nvda] Follow-up: moderator qualifications #ModNotice #AdminNotice

Hi,

 

If you or someone you know fulfills all (yes, ALL) of the following requirements, then please put forth your name or that person’s name as the candidate for the new moderator (note that this isn’t about head moderator position, and our current head moderator is Nimer Jaber):

 

1.       Have used NVDA for the past three years or more.

2.       Have been a member of this forum and other NVDA forums for the past three years or more.

3.       Ability to communicate well, especially when confronting a crisis such as misbehaving members, off-topic messages and such.

4.       Ability to communicate kindly (and with humility) even in the face of adversity (especially during arbitration hearing proceedings).

5.       Willingness to seek advice from moderators and members of this forum when making list-wide decisions.

6.       Familiarity with Groups.IO administration controls.

7.       Ability to serve as a user-side advocate when talking to NV Access and other NVDA developers.

8.       Ability to deliver important news from NV Access such as NVDA release announcements in a timely manner.

9.       Willingness to step down from position of power when appropriate (recalled, on his or her own will and so on).

10.   Willingness to shower members of this list and the wider NVDA community with love and mercy, including to misbehaving members.

11.   Having the servant’s attitude (to serve, not to be served).

12.   Willingness to be accountable and answerable to members of this list and the public.

13.   Must be at least 21 years of age or older (or considered an adult in the country a candidate resides in).

 

Some of you may say, “look, these requirements are too hard.” I believe that, as a public face of this list (alongside other moderators and members), you are responsible for the fate and reputation of this list, and in extension, NVDA community and NVDA screen reader itself. Thus only applications from serious candidates will be accepted (applications will be accepted until early April, and election will be held by end of April so the new moderator can adjust to his or her new role throughout May).

 

Thank you.

Cheers,

Joseph

P.S. The reason for making these requirements tough is because of the following blog post:

http://joslee22590.blogspot.com/2016/03/if-i-die-tonight-2-showering-forum.html?spref=tw

Although the post talks about head moderators, it applies to associate moderators as well. Good luck.


Re: Electing a new moderator

john s
 

I agree with others. Moderators can't be elected and need to be chosen. I will not vote because I don't know many of the participants on this list.



earlier, Joseph Lee, wrote:
Hi Gwen,
Although for some, selection by a moderator is great, I believe it deprives
a chance for members to exercise a fundamental right: petition. Perhaps
moderators may make a wrong choice (to them, it was a right decision), but I
think we cannot forget the following principles:
* The real stars of a show are audiences. In other words, forum members
should participate in making a forum great, and one way is through voicing
opinions. Many of us would say the presenters (or moderators) should be the
stars, but I firmly believe that the purpose of forming a forum is for the
benefit of the members within who have come together for a purpose.
* Moderators should show vulnerability. There is a reason why some people
are selected to lead, moderate and represent a forum: they have specific
calling (or a sense of duty), and one way to let moderators show they are
human is through vulnerability (having a mindset to walk around the
conference hall and sit with attendees instead of occupying the speaker's
podium all day).
* People and content will decide the fate and reputation of a forum. Many
would say content is the crown jewel of a forum; I think it is both content
(topics) and people (moderators, members, outsiders and what not) who are
the gemstones of a forum. As an outgoing moderator (outgoing as in soon to
retire), I believe that one way to make this a reality is through voting: to
let you participate in a decision that'll decide the overall direction of a
forum for years to come, to give you a sense of pride for the fact that you
are an invaluable part of this forum, to let you express your opinion freely
and to remind the new moderator to be accountable and answerable to all of
you. In other words, by letting you vote, I'd like to give you the greatest
gift (I think) any moderator could give: acknowledging list members as equal
partners in decision-making, inviting you along the ride as we make
decisions, and to thank you for your support by giving you a chance to
select the new moderator.
* This isn't the first time we held votes to decide important list matters.
What made our transition to Groups.IO possible was overwhelming "yes" votes
from members.
Hope this helps (sorry if I came across as rude).
Cheers,
Joseph




-----Original Message-----
From: Gwensinfo [mailto:gwensinfo@tampabay.rr.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 11:21 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator

Joseph, it sounds like you have an awful lot on your plate. I can understand
that, as moderator, you might want to step down so that you could provide
more support and help to some of the other focus projects within NVDA. I
wish you well. I really think an election though is not the right way to go.

Gwen and the great Orb
sent from my iPhone 5s
"a dog has many friends because he wags his tail and not his tongue "
Anonymous"

On Mar 22, 2016, at 2:12 PM, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Antony,
If I understand Chris, he meant someone who is familiar with NVDA's
history, development and key ideas.
To answer the second question: in 2013, at the time of taking office, I
was nearing completion of my NVDA tutorials, an active participant in NVDA
translations work and was learning NVDA source code and planning Control
Usage Assistant add-on (which is now maintained by a member of this list).
At this time, I am:
* Soon to be former associate moderator of this list.
* One of the community add-on reviewers and serve as the quarterly add-on
release coordinator.
* Produced numerous tutorials, including Welcome to NVDA series (updated
in 2015).
* Current maintainer of or have maintained the following NVDA add-ons:
Control Usage Assistant (original add-on creator and former maintainer),
Enhanced Touch Gestures (add-on creator and maintainer), GoldWave (add-on
creator and maintainer), Resource Monitor (current maintainer),
StationPlaylist Studio (current maintainer), Windows 10 App Essentials
(add-on creator and maintainer).
* The original author of NVDA add-on development guide.
* NVDA translator (Korean).
* Code contributor to NVDA screen reader project (I am the one who wrote
case sensitive find routine, let NVDA announce toast notifications in
Windows 10, added ability to let NVDA not play startup and shutdown sounds,
initiated Outlook Calendar support, maintain a number of third-party NVDA
snapshots, and am researching features such as ability to disable individual
add-ons and letting NVDA announce notifications in Microsoft Edge).
* Involved in projects related to NVDA, including serving as one of the
points of contact regarding NVDA's support for Unified English Braille (UEB)
via LibLouis.
* Organized or led initiatives on various gatherings (both local and
international scale), including all NVDACon until now.
* Chair of the NVDA Tenth Anniversary Planning Committee, which, among
other things, is tasked with organizing NVDACon International 2016.
* Served as one of the many points of contact between users, developers
and supporters of NVDA.
Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Joseph




-----Original Message-----
From: Antony Stone [mailto:Antony.Stone@nvda.open.source.it]
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 10:46 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator

I have two questions about this:

1. Who do you mean by "the NVDA establishment"? Do you mean the employees
of NV Access Limited, or some other (hopefully larger) group?

2. Was Joseph a part of "the NVDA establishment" when he became list
moderator?

Antony.

On Tuesday 22 Mar 2016 at 15:48, Chris Mullins wrote:

I concur with Gene and Laz. Democratic election is not the way to go.
Someone from within the NVDA establishment is required to take on the
role.

Cheers
Chris
--
"In fact I wanted to be John Cleese and it took me some time to realise
that the job was already taken."

- Douglas Adams

Please reply to the
list;
please *don't* CC
me.










John


Re: The danger at the moment of this moderation thread.

Austin Pinto <austinpinto.xaviers@...>
 

sub group work in progress

On 3/23/16, Brian's Mail list account <bglists@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
Is that its all engulfing. Personally, I think one needs to have this on a
special group for admin of nvda lists generally.
I fear that those coming in in the last few days who want help are drowned

out by repeated messages about who how what where and how to vote etc etc.


Cannot an announcement just be put here that cannot be followed up?
or is that what happened when I got cryptic bounces from this list
yesterday. i see mention of sub groups. One supposes this is in effect a new

group but automatically, those subscribed here, also get subscribed there.

this will be good as I can then sort them on the group name be it a new
name or something related


So, can we perhaps do this now. I've kind of lost the will to live looking
through the various threads on this, of which I know I've just created
another, sorry.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.




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search for me on facebook, google+, orkut..
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follow me on twitter.
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contact me on skype.
austin.pinto3


The danger at the moment of this moderation thread.

Brian's Mail list account BY <bglists@...>
 

Is that its all engulfing. Personally, I think one needs to have this on a special group for admin of nvda lists generally.
I fear that those coming in in the last few days who want help are drowned out by repeated messages about who how what where and how to vote etc etc.


Cannot an announcement just be put here that cannot be followed up?
or is that what happened when I got cryptic bounces from this list yesterday. i see mention of sub groups. One supposes this is in effect a new group but automatically, those subscribed here, also get subscribed there. this will be good as I can then sort them on the group name be it a new name or something related


So, can we perhaps do this now. I've kind of lost the will to live looking through the various threads on this, of which I know I've just created another, sorry.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.


Re: Electing a new moderator

 

Thats a good idea, I have noted that the addons release coodenator is getting replaced to.
I think all positions needs to have interest, if someone wants to take it or if a few want to then if its more than 1 we vote.

On 23/03/2016 8:13 p.m., Fanus wrote:
Hello list
Just my few sents: is it not better to ask who is willing to take Joseph’s place instead of doing an election. With nominations a person nominated can feel important although he or she does not really want to do the job while a person who comes forward and offers to act as moderator is really interested and able.
Regards
Fanus


From: Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 1:23 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator

I just hope whoever takes Joseph's place will be as good as he was.




On 3/22/2016 4:12 PM, Gene wrote:

Michael Lee was a perfect stranger when he began. If a perfect stranger does a bad job of moderating, there will be plenty of time to leave the list. it is common for moderators to leave lists and be replaced by someone who is a perfect stranger to a lot of most list members.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 6:07 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator

Hi, Lino,

I agree that Joseph has done a damn good job of running this list. I
might just leave the group too if the list has to be run by a perfect
stranger. It's a shame that Joseph has to step down.

Rosemarie



On 3/22/2016 2:36 PM, Lino Morales wrote:
> I also agree with Gene here. Joseph has done a damn fine job running
> the list. Heck we hear from him mor than Nimer probably cause he works
> etc. etc. If this list is going to be run like this in future I don't
> want any part of it. Just my 2cents.
>
> On 3/22/2016 9:29 AM, Laz wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> I must say that I wholeheartedly agree with Gene. I will also add that
>> voting on names of strangers to be elected to an important position
>> such as a list moderator could end up having an unqualified candidate
>> who may have other intentions than those mentioned being voted into
>> the position and given power to do as they secretly intend. Just look
>> at the track history of politics. List ownership and moderation is not
>> a democratic process by any means. We have no idea as to the true
>> character of most list members. I have already seen one proposal for a
>> candidate which I'm not certain would make a good moderator as I
>> believe it's an alias of someone else on the list and that's all I'm
>> going to say about that. I sincerely hope that Nimer will keep the
>> power of veto and put a stop to any unqualified person being voted
>> into the role of moderator.
>>
>> Laz
>>
>> On 3/22/16, Gene <gsasner@ripco.com> wrote:
>>> I spent a lot of time and thought replying to this message. Now I
>>> see that
>>> it was rejected because of restricted hash tags. I shall send it
>>> again with
>>> another subject line and I shall make one additional commenbt at the
>>> outset
>>>
>>> Since I initially wrote my message, I have seen the start of what will
>>> probably be an avalanche of messages regarding nominations and
>>> discussions
>>> of nominees. I did not join this list to receive hundreds or
>>> thousands of
>>> administration messages nor did most who joined. We joined to
>>> discuss NVDA,
>>> not how to run the list nor who should be in charge.
>>>
>>> I appreciate the work you have done in moderating the list and I
>>> appreciate
>>> your intentions. But this is just not the way to run a list. If you
>>> are
>>> determined to run the list as a democracy, please set up a chat
>>> subgroup for
>>> those who want to discuss nominations and make submissions or ask
>>> that such
>>> submissions be sent to you off list, either or both. The main NVDA
>>> list
>>> should be to discuss NVDA and not democratic administrative nor
>>> election
>>> matters except to announce the actual election and present
>>> information about
>>> the nominees.
>>>
>>> Here is what I wrote previously.
>>>
>>> I almost never comment on list administration on the list but this
>>> is an
>>> exception. If you want to step down, that's your decision and I am not
>>> writing to question or challenge the decision. But generational
>>> change,
>>> when the generation in question is probably in its late twenties or
>>> early
>>> thirties at most makes no sense as a reason. If you are worried about
>>> succession, then it would be far better to have some mechanism where
>>> you
>>> appoint someone to take over with the prior approval of the list owner.
>>>
>>> I have never been on, nor ever heard, of a list run like a
>>> democracy. There
>>> are good reasons for this. This is not a democracy, where people have
>>> records and attributes that are known to most members regarding list
>>> administration. There a very few active members and most discussion is
>>> about NVDA in some way. If members were asked to vote on who has
>>> the most
>>> knowledge of NVDA, for example, there would be some grounds for
>>> members to
>>> vote. But this is a list to discuss NVDA. It is not a place where
>>> people
>>> display records of leadership and personality that members are aware
>>> of and
>>> can use to choose a leader. (I don't even know the names of more than
>>> perhaps ten or twenty members on the list and I know them not
>>> because of any
>>> demonstrated personality traits that relate to running the list. I
>>> know
>>> them because they discuss NVDA. There is no corellation between
>>> that and
>>> being able to determine who has the qualities best suited to run a
>>> list.
>>> You may know people well enough yourself to make such a
>>> determination and
>>> frankly, in this context, you and the list owner should do so. I
>>> shall,
>>> respectfully, not vote in the upcoming election. I am not
>>> knowledgeable and
>>> cannot cast an informed meaningful vote and most list members can't
>>> cast an
>>> informed meaningful vote either.
>>>
>>> If the list were really a democratic institution, we would have people
>>> holding office with campaigns and some sort of mechanisms for people
>>> to get
>>> to know and evaluate those who serve and run for office. There would be
>>> periodic elections. If we make a mistake and appoint someone who
>>> does not
>>> do a good job in error, this being a list, not a democratic
>>> institution, we
>>> have no means of recall or no periodic elections to replace the
>>> person. We
>>> are electing someone for an indefinite term with most members having no
>>> meaningful information on which to make a decision.
>>>
>>> On every list I've been on, the owner runs the list and makes decisions
>>> relevant to administration and the owner and moderators decide how
>>> to divide
>>> up tasks such as moderation. As I said, there are good reasons that
>>> lists
>>> are not run as democracies.
>>>
>>> And making some sort of divide in generations when the generation in
>>> their
>>> late twenties or early thirties has most of its collective life to
>>> live is a
>>> really bad idea. The United States Constitution has minimum ages for
>>> assuming different offices. That's because it was believed that
>>> knowledge,
>>> wisdom, and maturity increase with age. What about all those who
>>> may be in
>>> their forties, fifties, sixties, and beyond who may be better
>>> qualified by
>>> the knowledge and experience they have gotten? Are you taking the
>>> position
>>> that anyone under the age of thirty, for example will be considered
>>> to run
>>> the list but those older won't?
>>>
>>> The more I think about the reason you gave for stepping down and the
>>> means
>>> you propose to fill the vacancy, the more I realize what a bad
>>> rationale and
>>> procedure it is. And a further irony is that you propose a democratic
>>> election to fill the position but you haven't held an election on
>>> whether
>>> the list should be run as a democracy or in the traditional or other
>>> way.
>>> Isn't that the first thing that should be decided by democratic
>>> means if the
>>> list is a democratic institution? Democracy is not suited to all
>>> institutions and this list is one of them.
>>>
>>> As I said at the outset, if you want to step down, I have no quarrel
>>> with
>>> that decision. That is your decision and I am not writing to
>>> question the
>>> decision. But I strongly disagree with the reason given and the
>>> procedure
>>> to fill the vacancy.
>>>
>>> I considered writing you off list but, if the list is being run as a
>>> democracy, it follows that other list members should know my
>>> thoughts on
>>> this matter.
>>>
>>> Gene
>>> ------ Original Message -----
>>> From: Joseph Lee
>>> Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 10:26 PM
>>> To: nvda@groups.io
>>> Subject: [nvda] Important moderator's letter: I'd like to request next
>>> generation of NVDA enthusiasts to come to the moderator's seat
>>> #ModNotice
>>> #AdminNotice
>>>
>>>
>>> Dear members of the NVDA International Users list and the wider NVDA
>>> community:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> For some, change of generation is a scary thing, while others would
>>> say it
>>> is a wonderful way to reflect upon our past and think about the
>>> future. As a
>>> moderator of this list and the chair of the NVDA Tenth Anniversary
>>> Planning
>>> Committee, I had a chance to think about this today. Specifically, I
>>> was
>>> struck by the following thought: If I die tonight, who'll carry on
>>> my legacy
>>> and serve as a moderator who'll shower you with more love than I did?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You see, for some time, I thought it is better to let a generational
>>> change
>>> happen. We now have members of the next generation who are very
>>> enthusiastic
>>> about NVDA and its community, people who are showing leadership
>>> potential
>>> and folks who are willing to love and serve you and the wider
>>> community. And
>>> I thought that this is a good time to carry this out, seeing that
>>> some of
>>> these new enthusiasts are the ones who are actively involved in
>>> promoting
>>> NVDA and events related to its tenth anniversary.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thus, effective May 31, 2016, I'll step down from the moderator
>>> position I
>>> held for the past three years. I'd like to request that members of
>>> this list
>>> hold a list-wide election to elect the new moderator. I'll remain a
>>> member
>>> of this list, obeying the new moderator and serving the NVDA community.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thank you everyone for your support for the past few years.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Joseph
>>>
>>> P.S. My blog post on this decision can be found at:
>>>
>>> http://joslee22590.blogspot.com/2016/03/if-i-die-tonight-1-legacy-letting-go-of.html
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
>







Re: Using Chicken Nugett with NVDA 2-16.1 with Win 10

Ketan Kothari
 

Thank you Christoff,

But one more problem persists. How do I compose tweet and all the rest of it?

Ketan

On 3/23/16, Ketan Kothari <muktaketan@gmail.com> wrote:
--
Ketan Kothari
Phone: [r] 24223281,
Cell: 9987550614
MSN ID: muktaketan@hotmail.com
Skype ID: Ketan3333



Hi friends,

6.1 but a unable to use Chicken nugett. Could anyone please help? Thank
you.

With bestwishes,

KetanI am using Win 10 with NVDA 2015



--
Ketan Kothari
Phone: [r] 24223281,
Cell: 9987550614
MSN ID: muktaketan@hotmail.com
Skype ID: Ketan3333


Re: Correction for Ketan

Christo de Klerk
 

Chicken Nugget works with NVDA under Windows 10, but by default hotkeys have been changed to use the Alt key instead of Ctrl. In other words, to navigate up and down your list of tweets you would no longer use Ctrl+Windows+up/down arrow, but Alt+Windows+Up/Down arrows.

Regards

Christo

On 2016/03/23 8:55 AM, Ketan Kothari wrote:
Actually my problem is using chicken nugett with NVDA on Win 10.

Please do help.

On 3/23/16, Ben J. Bloomgren <bbloomgren@icloud.com> wrote:
Ketan,

I’m sorry about the previous message. You were asking about Chicken Nugget
on Windows 10. I don’t use Windows 10 myself, but I know people who do use
it with Chicken Nugget and love it.

Ben



Re: Electing a new moderator

Austin Pinto <austinpinto.xaviers@...>
 

no no.
Joseph is asking for nominations and also a person responding if they
want to take the charge or no.

On 3/23/16, Fanus <buys.fanus@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello list
Just my few sents: is it not better to ask who is willing to take Joseph’s
place instead of doing an election. With nominations a person nominated can
feel important although he or she does not really want to do the job while a
person who comes forward and offers to act as moderator is really interested
and able.
Regards
Fanus


From: Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 1:23 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator

I just hope whoever takes Joseph's place will be as good as he was.




On 3/22/2016 4:12 PM, Gene wrote:

Michael Lee was a perfect stranger when he began. If a perfect stranger
does a bad job of moderating, there will be plenty of time to leave the
list. it is common for moderators to leave lists and be replaced by someone
who is a perfect stranger to a lot of most list members.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 6:07 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator

Hi, Lino,

I agree that Joseph has done a damn good job of running this list. I
might just leave the group too if the list has to be run by a perfect
stranger. It's a shame that Joseph has to step down.

Rosemarie



On 3/22/2016 2:36 PM, Lino Morales wrote:
> I also agree with Gene here. Joseph has done a damn fine job running
> the list. Heck we hear from him mor than Nimer probably cause he works
> etc. etc. If this list is going to be run like this in future I don't
> want any part of it. Just my 2cents.
>
> On 3/22/2016 9:29 AM, Laz wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> I must say that I wholeheartedly agree with Gene. I will also add that
>> voting on names of strangers to be elected to an important position
>> such as a list moderator could end up having an unqualified candidate
>> who may have other intentions than those mentioned being voted into
>> the position and given power to do as they secretly intend. Just look
>> at the track history of politics. List ownership and moderation is not
>> a democratic process by any means. We have no idea as to the true
>> character of most list members. I have already seen one proposal for a
>> candidate which I'm not certain would make a good moderator as I
>> believe it's an alias of someone else on the list and that's all I'm
>> going to say about that. I sincerely hope that Nimer will keep the
>> power of veto and put a stop to any unqualified person being voted
>> into the role of moderator.
>>
>> Laz
>>
>> On 3/22/16, Gene <gsasner@ripco.com> wrote:
>>> I spent a lot of time and thought replying to this message. Now I
>>> see that
>>> it was rejected because of restricted hash tags. I shall send it
>>> again with
>>> another subject line and I shall make one additional commenbt at the
>>> outset
>>>
>>> Since I initially wrote my message, I have seen the start of what
will
>>> probably be an avalanche of messages regarding nominations and
>>> discussions
>>> of nominees. I did not join this list to receive hundreds or
>>> thousands of
>>> administration messages nor did most who joined. We joined to
>>> discuss NVDA,
>>> not how to run the list nor who should be in charge.
>>>
>>> I appreciate the work you have done in moderating the list and I
>>> appreciate
>>> your intentions. But this is just not the way to run a list. If you
>>> are
>>> determined to run the list as a democracy, please set up a chat
>>> subgroup for
>>> those who want to discuss nominations and make submissions or ask
>>> that such
>>> submissions be sent to you off list, either or both. The main NVDA
>>> list
>>> should be to discuss NVDA and not democratic administrative nor
>>> election
>>> matters except to announce the actual election and present
>>> information about
>>> the nominees.
>>>
>>> Here is what I wrote previously.
>>>
>>> I almost never comment on list administration on the list but this
>>> is an
>>> exception. If you want to step down, that's your decision and I am
not
>>> writing to question or challenge the decision. But generational
>>> change,
>>> when the generation in question is probably in its late twenties or
>>> early
>>> thirties at most makes no sense as a reason. If you are worried
about
>>> succession, then it would be far better to have some mechanism where
>>> you
>>> appoint someone to take over with the prior approval of the list
owner.
>>>
>>> I have never been on, nor ever heard, of a list run like a
>>> democracy. There
>>> are good reasons for this. This is not a democracy, where people
have
>>> records and attributes that are known to most members regarding list
>>> administration. There a very few active members and most discussion
is
>>> about NVDA in some way. If members were asked to vote on who has
>>> the most
>>> knowledge of NVDA, for example, there would be some grounds for
>>> members to
>>> vote. But this is a list to discuss NVDA. It is not a place where
>>> people
>>> display records of leadership and personality that members are aware
>>> of and
>>> can use to choose a leader. (I don't even know the names of more
than
>>> perhaps ten or twenty members on the list and I know them not
>>> because of any
>>> demonstrated personality traits that relate to running the list. I
>>> know
>>> them because they discuss NVDA. There is no corellation between
>>> that and
>>> being able to determine who has the qualities best suited to run a
>>> list.
>>> You may know people well enough yourself to make such a
>>> determination and
>>> frankly, in this context, you and the list owner should do so. I
>>> shall,
>>> respectfully, not vote in the upcoming election. I am not
>>> knowledgeable and
>>> cannot cast an informed meaningful vote and most list members can't
>>> cast an
>>> informed meaningful vote either.
>>>
>>> If the list were really a democratic institution, we would have
people
>>> holding office with campaigns and some sort of mechanisms for people
>>> to get
>>> to know and evaluate those who serve and run for office. There would
be
>>> periodic elections. If we make a mistake and appoint someone who
>>> does not
>>> do a good job in error, this being a list, not a democratic
>>> institution, we
>>> have no means of recall or no periodic elections to replace the
>>> person. We
>>> are electing someone for an indefinite term with most members having
no
>>> meaningful information on which to make a decision.
>>>
>>> On every list I've been on, the owner runs the list and makes
decisions
>>> relevant to administration and the owner and moderators decide how
>>> to divide
>>> up tasks such as moderation. As I said, there are good reasons that
>>> lists
>>> are not run as democracies.
>>>
>>> And making some sort of divide in generations when the generation in
>>> their
>>> late twenties or early thirties has most of its collective life to
>>> live is a
>>> really bad idea. The United States Constitution has minimum ages for
>>> assuming different offices. That's because it was believed that
>>> knowledge,
>>> wisdom, and maturity increase with age. What about all those who
>>> may be in
>>> their forties, fifties, sixties, and beyond who may be better
>>> qualified by
>>> the knowledge and experience they have gotten? Are you taking the
>>> position
>>> that anyone under the age of thirty, for example will be considered
>>> to run
>>> the list but those older won't?
>>>
>>> The more I think about the reason you gave for stepping down and the
>>> means
>>> you propose to fill the vacancy, the more I realize what a bad
>>> rationale and
>>> procedure it is. And a further irony is that you propose a
democratic
>>> election to fill the position but you haven't held an election on
>>> whether
>>> the list should be run as a democracy or in the traditional or other
>>> way.
>>> Isn't that the first thing that should be decided by democratic
>>> means if the
>>> list is a democratic institution? Democracy is not suited to all
>>> institutions and this list is one of them.
>>>
>>> As I said at the outset, if you want to step down, I have no quarrel
>>> with
>>> that decision. That is your decision and I am not writing to
>>> question the
>>> decision. But I strongly disagree with the reason given and the
>>> procedure
>>> to fill the vacancy.
>>>
>>> I considered writing you off list but, if the list is being run as a
>>> democracy, it follows that other list members should know my
>>> thoughts on
>>> this matter.
>>>
>>> Gene
>>> ------ Original Message -----
>>> From: Joseph Lee
>>> Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 10:26 PM
>>> To: nvda@groups.io
>>> Subject: [nvda] Important moderator's letter: I'd like to request
next
>>> generation of NVDA enthusiasts to come to the moderator's seat
>>> #ModNotice
>>> #AdminNotice
>>>
>>>
>>> Dear members of the NVDA International Users list and the wider NVDA
>>> community:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> For some, change of generation is a scary thing, while others would
>>> say it
>>> is a wonderful way to reflect upon our past and think about the
>>> future. As a
>>> moderator of this list and the chair of the NVDA Tenth Anniversary
>>> Planning
>>> Committee, I had a chance to think about this today. Specifically, I
>>> was
>>> struck by the following thought: If I die tonight, who'll carry on
>>> my legacy
>>> and serve as a moderator who'll shower you with more love than I did?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You see, for some time, I thought it is better to let a generational
>>> change
>>> happen. We now have members of the next generation who are very
>>> enthusiastic
>>> about NVDA and its community, people who are showing leadership
>>> potential
>>> and folks who are willing to love and serve you and the wider
>>> community. And
>>> I thought that this is a good time to carry this out, seeing that
>>> some of
>>> these new enthusiasts are the ones who are actively involved in
>>> promoting
>>> NVDA and events related to its tenth anniversary.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thus, effective May 31, 2016, I'll step down from the moderator
>>> position I
>>> held for the past three years. I'd like to request that members of
>>> this list
>>> hold a list-wide election to elect the new moderator. I'll remain a
>>> member
>>> of this list, obeying the new moderator and serving the NVDA
community.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thank you everyone for your support for the past few years.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Joseph
>>>
>>> P.S. My blog post on this decision can be found at:
>>>
>>>
http://joslee22590.blogspot.com/2016/03/if-i-die-tonight-1-legacy-letting-go-of.html

>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
>






--
search for me on facebook, google+, orkut..
austinpinto.xaviers@gmail.com
follow me on twitter.
austinmpinto
contact me on skype.
austin.pinto3


Re: Electing a new moderator

Fanus
 

Hello list
Just my few sents: is it not  better to ask who is willing to take Joseph’s place instead of doing an election. With nominations a person nominated can feel important although he or she does not really want to do the job while a person who comes forward and offers to act as moderator is really interested and able.
Regards
Fanus
 
 

Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 1:23 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator
 
I just hope whoever takes Joseph's place will be as good as he was.



On 3/22/2016 4:12 PM, Gene wrote:
Michael Lee was a perfect stranger when he began.  If a perfect stranger does a bad job of moderating, there will be plenty of time to leave the list.  it is common for moderators to leave lists and be replaced by someone who is a perfect stranger to a lot of most list members. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 6:07 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator
 
Hi, Lino,

I agree that Joseph has done a damn good job of running this list. I
might just leave the group too if the list has to be run by a perfect
stranger. It's a shame that Joseph has to step down.

Rosemarie



On 3/22/2016 2:36 PM, Lino Morales wrote:
> I also agree with Gene here. Joseph has done a damn fine job running
> the list. Heck we hear from him mor than Nimer probably cause he works
> etc. etc. If this list is going to be run like this in future I don't
> want any part of it. Just my 2cents.
>
> On 3/22/2016 9:29 AM, Laz wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> I must say that I wholeheartedly agree with Gene. I will also add that
>> voting on names of strangers to be elected to an important position
>> such as a list moderator could end up having an unqualified candidate
>> who may have other intentions than those mentioned being voted into
>> the position and given power to do as they secretly intend. Just look
>> at the track history of politics. List ownership and moderation is not
>> a democratic process by any means. We have no idea as to the true
>> character of most list members. I have already seen one proposal for a
>> candidate which I'm not certain would make a good moderator as I
>> believe it's an alias of someone else on the list and that's all I'm
>> going to say about that. I sincerely hope that Nimer will  keep the
>> power of veto and put a stop to any unqualified person being voted
>> into the role of moderator.
>>
>> Laz
>>
>> On 3/22/16, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
>>> I spent a lot of time and thought replying to this message.  Now I
>>> see that
>>> it was rejected because of restricted hash tags.  I shall send it
>>> again with
>>> another subject line and I shall make one additional commenbt at the
>>> outset
>>>
>>> Since I initially wrote my message, I have seen the start of what will
>>> probably be an avalanche of messages regarding nominations and
>>> discussions
>>> of nominees.  I did not join this list to receive hundreds or
>>> thousands of
>>> administration messages nor did most who joined.  We joined to
>>> discuss NVDA,
>>> not how to run the list nor who should be in charge.
>>>
>>> I appreciate the work you have done in moderating the list and I
>>> appreciate
>>> your intentions.  But this is just not the way to run a list. If you
>>> are
>>> determined to run the list as a democracy, please set up a chat
>>> subgroup for
>>> those who want to discuss nominations and make submissions or ask
>>> that such
>>> submissions be sent to you off list, either or both.  The main NVDA
>>> list
>>> should be to discuss NVDA and not democratic administrative nor
>>> election
>>> matters except to announce the actual election and present
>>> information about
>>> the nominees.
>>>
>>> Here is what I wrote previously.
>>>
>>> I almost never comment on list administration on the list but this
>>> is an
>>> exception.  If you want to step down, that's your decision and I am not
>>> writing to question or challenge the decision.  But generational
>>> change,
>>> when the generation in question is probably in its late twenties or
>>> early
>>> thirties at most makes no sense as a reason.  If you are worried about
>>> succession, then it would be far better to have some mechanism where
>>> you
>>> appoint someone to take over with the prior approval of the list owner.
>>>
>>> I have never been on, nor ever heard, of a list run like a
>>> democracy.  There
>>> are good reasons for this.  This is not a democracy, where people have
>>> records and attributes that are known to most members regarding list
>>> administration.  There a very few active members and most discussion is
>>> about NVDA in some way.  If members were asked to vote on who has
>>> the most
>>> knowledge of NVDA, for example, there would be some grounds for
>>> members to
>>> vote.  But this is a list to discuss NVDA.  It is not a place where
>>> people
>>> display records of leadership and personality that members are aware
>>> of and
>>> can use to choose a leader.  (I don't even know the names of more than
>>> perhaps ten or twenty members on the list and I know them not
>>> because of any
>>> demonstrated personality traits that relate to running the list.  I
>>> know
>>> them because they discuss NVDA.  There is no corellation between
>>> that and
>>> being able to determine who has the qualities best suited to run a
>>> list.
>>> You may know people well enough yourself to make such a
>>> determination and
>>> frankly, in this context, you and the list owner should do so.  I
>>> shall,
>>> respectfully, not vote in the upcoming election.  I am not
>>> knowledgeable and
>>> cannot cast an informed meaningful vote and most list members can't
>>> cast an
>>> informed meaningful vote either.
>>>
>>> If the list were really a democratic institution, we would have people
>>> holding office with campaigns and some sort of mechanisms for people
>>> to get
>>> to know and evaluate those who serve and run for office. There would be
>>> periodic elections.  If we make a mistake and appoint someone who
>>> does not
>>> do a good job in error, this being a list, not a democratic
>>> institution, we
>>> have no means of recall or no periodic elections to replace the
>>> person.  We
>>> are electing someone for an indefinite term with most members having no
>>> meaningful information on which to make a decision.
>>>
>>> On every list I've been on, the owner runs the list and makes decisions
>>> relevant to administration and the owner and moderators decide how
>>> to divide
>>> up tasks such as moderation.  As I said, there are good reasons that
>>> lists
>>> are not run as democracies.
>>>
>>> And making some sort of divide in generations when the generation in
>>> their
>>> late twenties or early thirties has most of its collective life to
>>> live is a
>>> really bad idea.  The United States Constitution has minimum ages for
>>> assuming different offices.  That's because it was believed that
>>> knowledge,
>>> wisdom, and maturity increase with age.  What about all those who
>>> may be in
>>> their forties, fifties, sixties, and beyond who may be better
>>> qualified by
>>> the knowledge and experience they have gotten?  Are you taking the
>>> position
>>> that anyone under the age of thirty, for example will be considered
>>> to run
>>> the list but those older won't?
>>>
>>> The more I think about the reason you gave for stepping down and the
>>> means
>>> you propose to fill the vacancy, the more I realize what a bad
>>> rationale and
>>> procedure it is.  And a further irony is that you propose a democratic
>>> election to fill the position but you haven't held an election on
>>> whether
>>> the list should be run as a democracy or in the traditional or other
>>> way.
>>> Isn't that the first thing that should be decided by democratic
>>> means if the
>>> list is a democratic institution?  Democracy is not suited to all
>>> institutions and this list is one of them.
>>>
>>> As I said at the outset, if you want to step down, I have no quarrel
>>> with
>>> that decision.  That is your decision and I am not writing to
>>> question the
>>> decision.  But I strongly disagree with the reason given and the
>>> procedure
>>> to fill the vacancy.
>>>
>>> I considered writing you off list but, if the list is being run as a
>>> democracy, it follows that other list members should know my
>>> thoughts on
>>> this matter.
>>>
>>> Gene
>>> ------ Original Message -----
>>> From: Joseph Lee
>>> Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 10:26 PM
>>> To: nvda@groups.io
>>> Subject: [nvda] Important moderator's letter: I'd like to request next
>>> generation of NVDA enthusiasts to come to the moderator's seat
>>> #ModNotice
>>> #AdminNotice
>>>
>>>
>>> Dear members of the NVDA International Users list and the wider NVDA
>>> community:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> For some, change of generation is a scary thing, while others would
>>> say it
>>> is a wonderful way to reflect upon our past and think about the
>>> future. As a
>>> moderator of this list and the chair of the NVDA Tenth Anniversary
>>> Planning
>>> Committee, I had a chance to think about this today. Specifically, I
>>> was
>>> struck by the following thought: If I die tonight, who'll carry on
>>> my legacy
>>> and serve as a moderator who'll shower you with more love than I did?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You see, for some time, I thought it is better to let a generational
>>> change
>>> happen. We now have members of the next generation who are very
>>> enthusiastic
>>> about NVDA and its community, people who are showing leadership
>>> potential
>>> and folks who are willing to love and serve you and the wider
>>> community. And
>>> I thought that this is a good time to carry this out, seeing that
>>> some of
>>> these new enthusiasts are the ones who are actively involved in
>>> promoting
>>> NVDA and events related to its tenth anniversary.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thus, effective May 31, 2016, I'll step down from the moderator
>>> position I
>>> held for the past three years. I'd like to request that members of
>>> this list
>>> hold a list-wide election to elect the new moderator. I'll remain a
>>> member
>>> of this list, obeying the new moderator and serving the NVDA community.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thank you everyone for your support for the past few years.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Joseph
>>>
>>> P.S. My blog post on this decision can be found at:
>>>
>>> http://joslee22590.blogspot.com/2016/03/if-i-die-tonight-1-legacy-letting-go-of.html
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
>





Re: Correction for Ketan

Ketan Kothari
 

Actually my problem is using chicken nugett with NVDA on Win 10.

Please do help.

On 3/23/16, Ben J. Bloomgren <bbloomgren@icloud.com> wrote:
Ketan,

I’m sorry about the previous message. You were asking about Chicken Nugget
on Windows 10. I don’t use Windows 10 myself, but I know people who do use
it with Chicken Nugget and love it.

Ben


--
Ketan Kothari
Phone: [r] 24223281,
Cell: 9987550614
MSN ID: muktaketan@hotmail.com
Skype ID: Ketan3333


Re: Any NVDA users using inbox.google.com

Ben J. Bloomgren
 

I’m a mail client guy, but I’ll check it out. I like the flexibility of email clients, and I have tended to look down on webmail. I’ll check Inbox out though.

Thanks,

Ben

On Mar 22, 2016, at 7:39 PM, Kevin Chao <kevinchao89@...> wrote:

For the longest, I've been using gmail.com with Firefox+NVDA, but recently switched to inbox.google.com .
Was curious to know if others have tried Inbox or are using it?
I really like the bundles, pinning, snoozing, smart-replies, and smart links. 


Correction for Ketan

Ben J. Bloomgren
 

Ketan,

I’m sorry about the previous message. You were asking about Chicken Nugget on Windows 10. I don’t use Windows 10 myself, but I know people who do use it with Chicken Nugget and love it.

Ben


Re: Using Chicken Nugett with NVDA 2-16.1 with Win 10

Ben J. Bloomgren
 

Ketan,

I use Chicken Nugget every day, and it works very well.

Ben

On Mar 22, 2016, at 10:24 PM, Ketan Kothari <muktaketan@gmail.com> wrote:

--
Ketan Kothari
Phone: [r] 24223281,
Cell: 9987550614
MSN ID: muktaketan@hotmail.com
Skype ID: Ketan3333



Hi friends,

6.1 but a unable to use Chicken nugett. Could anyone please help? Thank you.

With bestwishes,

KetanI am using Win 10 with NVDA 2015



a suggestion for a future release of NVDA

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Hi, everyone,

 

Will NVDA be able to automatically read messages in outlook like it does withother email clients? This would be a great feature to have. I think it can be done in screen readers like window-eyes and jaws.

 

Rosemarie


Using Chicken Nugett with NVDA 2-16.1 with Win 10

Ketan Kothari
 

--
Ketan Kothari
Phone: [r] 24223281,
Cell: 9987550614
MSN ID: muktaketan@hotmail.com
Skype ID: Ketan3333



Hi friends,

6.1 but a unable to use Chicken nugett. Could anyone please help? Thank you.

With bestwishes,

KetanI am using Win 10 with NVDA 2015


Re: Electing a new moderator

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Hi, Austin,

I agree. Maybe Joseph can waituntil next year to step down since this is NVDA's 10th anniversary. He has done a terrific job in running this list.

Rosemarie

On 3/22/2016 8:46 PM, Austin Pinto wrote:
yes.
Joseph has done a fantastic job of maintaining the list.
it was a big shock when I heard Joseph stepping down.
although I am no1 to tell some1 not to step down or anything but given
the chance I would surely request joseph not to step down at list this
year.
for many things.
this being the 10th year of nvda there will be many conferences, and
events and some1 not that experienced as Joseph won’t be able to
handle this that well.
and as this is an international event its very important that the
event goes on well.
also this is an international list.
anything said or done on this list will directly affect the status of
nvda in international communities.
so there should be a gradual hand over of power not some1 just
inexperienced takes direct charge.
also as most of you are saying there should be no elections, this list
is not a democratic institution so let’s say joseph without consulting
us appoints a successor.
and that successor doesn’t run the list well and is a tyrant.
how can we remove the successor from the mod chair?
we have no decision making powers in the admin of this list.
so as Joseph is giving us this gift we should be happy that we are
selected as an equal partner of the list.
yes, I agree we have not joined this list to discuss who will take
charge and how elections will be held but for that we will have to
create a subgroup.
at last I must say that this list will not be the same without the
leadership skills of joseph and also just try to step down may be next
year or may be even never step down and in the meantime select a mod
and let a gradual hand over of power take place.
This list requires a leader like you.

On 3/23/16, Arlene <nedster66@gmail.com> wrote:
I'd give the stranger a chance to see if he's going to be a good mod. If not
then I'd leave. I wish Josiph all the luck in his new adventures.

-----Original Message-----
From: Rosemarie Chavarria [mailto:knitqueen2007@gmail.com]
Sent: March-22-16 4:07 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator

Hi, Lino,

I agree that Joseph has done a damn good job of running this list. I
might just leave the group too if the list has to be run by a perfect
stranger. It's a shame that Joseph has to step down.

Rosemarie



On 3/22/2016 2:36 PM, Lino Morales wrote:
I also agree with Gene here. Joseph has done a damn fine job running
the list. Heck we hear from him mor than Nimer probably cause he works
etc. etc. If this list is going to be run like this in future I don't
want any part of it. Just my 2cents.

On 3/22/2016 9:29 AM, Laz wrote:
Hello,

I must say that I wholeheartedly agree with Gene. I will also add that
voting on names of strangers to be elected to an important position
such as a list moderator could end up having an unqualified candidate
who may have other intentions than those mentioned being voted into
the position and given power to do as they secretly intend. Just look
at the track history of politics. List ownership and moderation is not
a democratic process by any means. We have no idea as to the true
character of most list members. I have already seen one proposal for a
candidate which I'm not certain would make a good moderator as I
believe it's an alias of someone else on the list and that's all I'm
going to say about that. I sincerely hope that Nimer will keep the
power of veto and put a stop to any unqualified person being voted
into the role of moderator.

Laz

On 3/22/16, Gene <gsasner@ripco.com> wrote:
I spent a lot of time and thought replying to this message. Now I
see that
it was rejected because of restricted hash tags. I shall send it
again with
another subject line and I shall make one additional commenbt at the
outset

Since I initially wrote my message, I have seen the start of what will
probably be an avalanche of messages regarding nominations and
discussions
of nominees. I did not join this list to receive hundreds or
thousands of
administration messages nor did most who joined. We joined to
discuss NVDA,
not how to run the list nor who should be in charge.

I appreciate the work you have done in moderating the list and I
appreciate
your intentions. But this is just not the way to run a list. If you
are
determined to run the list as a democracy, please set up a chat
subgroup for
those who want to discuss nominations and make submissions or ask
that such
submissions be sent to you off list, either or both. The main NVDA
list
should be to discuss NVDA and not democratic administrative nor
election
matters except to announce the actual election and present
information about
the nominees.

Here is what I wrote previously.

I almost never comment on list administration on the list but this
is an
exception. If you want to step down, that's your decision and I am not
writing to question or challenge the decision. But generational
change,
when the generation in question is probably in its late twenties or
early
thirties at most makes no sense as a reason. If you are worried about
succession, then it would be far better to have some mechanism where
you
appoint someone to take over with the prior approval of the list owner.

I have never been on, nor ever heard, of a list run like a
democracy. There
are good reasons for this. This is not a democracy, where people have
records and attributes that are known to most members regarding list
administration. There a very few active members and most discussion is
about NVDA in some way. If members were asked to vote on who has
the most
knowledge of NVDA, for example, there would be some grounds for
members to
vote. But this is a list to discuss NVDA. It is not a place where
people
display records of leadership and personality that members are aware
of and
can use to choose a leader. (I don't even know the names of more than
perhaps ten or twenty members on the list and I know them not
because of any
demonstrated personality traits that relate to running the list. I
know
them because they discuss NVDA. There is no corellation between
that and
being able to determine who has the qualities best suited to run a
list.
You may know people well enough yourself to make such a
determination and
frankly, in this context, you and the list owner should do so. I
shall,
respectfully, not vote in the upcoming election. I am not
knowledgeable and
cannot cast an informed meaningful vote and most list members can't
cast an
informed meaningful vote either.

If the list were really a democratic institution, we would have people
holding office with campaigns and some sort of mechanisms for people
to get
to know and evaluate those who serve and run for office. There would be
periodic elections. If we make a mistake and appoint someone who
does not
do a good job in error, this being a list, not a democratic
institution, we
have no means of recall or no periodic elections to replace the
person. We
are electing someone for an indefinite term with most members having no
meaningful information on which to make a decision.

On every list I've been on, the owner runs the list and makes decisions
relevant to administration and the owner and moderators decide how
to divide
up tasks such as moderation. As I said, there are good reasons that
lists
are not run as democracies.

And making some sort of divide in generations when the generation in
their
late twenties or early thirties has most of its collective life to
live is a
really bad idea. The United States Constitution has minimum ages for
assuming different offices. That's because it was believed that
knowledge,
wisdom, and maturity increase with age. What about all those who
may be in
their forties, fifties, sixties, and beyond who may be better
qualified by
the knowledge and experience they have gotten? Are you taking the
position
that anyone under the age of thirty, for example will be considered
to run
the list but those older won't?

The more I think about the reason you gave for stepping down and the
means
you propose to fill the vacancy, the more I realize what a bad
rationale and
procedure it is. And a further irony is that you propose a democratic
election to fill the position but you haven't held an election on
whether
the list should be run as a democracy or in the traditional or other
way.
Isn't that the first thing that should be decided by democratic
means if the
list is a democratic institution? Democracy is not suited to all
institutions and this list is one of them.

As I said at the outset, if you want to step down, I have no quarrel
with
that decision. That is your decision and I am not writing to
question the
decision. But I strongly disagree with the reason given and the
procedure
to fill the vacancy.

I considered writing you off list but, if the list is being run as a
democracy, it follows that other list members should know my
thoughts on
this matter.

Gene
------ Original Message -----
From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 10:26 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Important moderator's letter: I'd like to request next
generation of NVDA enthusiasts to come to the moderator's seat
#ModNotice
#AdminNotice


Dear members of the NVDA International Users list and the wider NVDA
community:



For some, change of generation is a scary thing, while others would
say it
is a wonderful way to reflect upon our past and think about the
future. As a
moderator of this list and the chair of the NVDA Tenth Anniversary
Planning
Committee, I had a chance to think about this today. Specifically, I
was
struck by the following thought: If I die tonight, who'll carry on
my legacy
and serve as a moderator who'll shower you with more love than I did?



You see, for some time, I thought it is better to let a generational
change
happen. We now have members of the next generation who are very
enthusiastic
about NVDA and its community, people who are showing leadership
potential
and folks who are willing to love and serve you and the wider
community. And
I thought that this is a good time to carry this out, seeing that
some of
these new enthusiasts are the ones who are actively involved in
promoting
NVDA and events related to its tenth anniversary.



Thus, effective May 31, 2016, I'll step down from the moderator
position I
held for the past three years. I'd like to request that members of
this list
hold a list-wide election to elect the new moderator. I'll remain a
member
of this list, obeying the new moderator and serving the NVDA community.



Thank you everyone for your support for the past few years.



Cheers,

Joseph

P.S. My blog post on this decision can be found at:

http://joslee22590.blogspot.com/2016/03/if-i-die-tonight-1-legacy-letting-go-of.html












Re: Joseph's unmoderation as it were comments

David Moore
 

Hi all,
I, too, would like to thank Joseph for all he has done for me. I had only heard of NVDA before joining this list. After much help from Joseph's posts and posts from you all, NVDA has become a back up screen reader right behind JAWS. Joseph has ttought me so much about the computer in general, and I have enjoyed all of his tutorials and work in this project. I wish Joseph the best in all he does, and Joseph, I will be by your side for years to come. Have a great one, all.

-----Original Message-----
From: Scott VanDeWalle
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 9:42 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Joseph's unmoderation as it were comments

I'd like to thank Joseph for a wonderful experience on the nvda list.
I felt welcomed whenever I had questions, and he was pretty helpful to
any questions i had.

I'd like to wish you good luck in your future ventures.
\
Sincerely
Scott


Re: Electing a new moderator

Austin Pinto <austinpinto.xaviers@...>
 

yes.
Joseph has done a fantastic job of maintaining the list.
it was a big shock when I heard Joseph stepping down.
although I am no1 to tell some1 not to step down or anything but given
the chance I would surely request joseph not to step down at list this
year.
for many things.
this being the 10th year of nvda there will be many conferences, and
events and some1 not that experienced as Joseph won’t be able to
handle this that well.
and as this is an international event its very important that the
event goes on well.
also this is an international list.
anything said or done on this list will directly affect the status of
nvda in international communities.
so there should be a gradual hand over of power not some1 just
inexperienced takes direct charge.
also as most of you are saying there should be no elections, this list
is not a democratic institution so let’s say joseph without consulting
us appoints a successor.
and that successor doesn’t run the list well and is a tyrant.
how can we remove the successor from the mod chair?
we have no decision making powers in the admin of this list.
so as Joseph is giving us this gift we should be happy that we are
selected as an equal partner of the list.
yes, I agree we have not joined this list to discuss who will take
charge and how elections will be held but for that we will have to
create a subgroup.
at last I must say that this list will not be the same without the
leadership skills of joseph and also just try to step down may be next
year or may be even never step down and in the meantime select a mod
and let a gradual hand over of power take place.
This list requires a leader like you.

On 3/23/16, Arlene <nedster66@gmail.com> wrote:
I'd give the stranger a chance to see if he's going to be a good mod. If not
then I'd leave. I wish Josiph all the luck in his new adventures.

-----Original Message-----
From: Rosemarie Chavarria [mailto:knitqueen2007@gmail.com]
Sent: March-22-16 4:07 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator

Hi, Lino,

I agree that Joseph has done a damn good job of running this list. I
might just leave the group too if the list has to be run by a perfect
stranger. It's a shame that Joseph has to step down.

Rosemarie



On 3/22/2016 2:36 PM, Lino Morales wrote:
I also agree with Gene here. Joseph has done a damn fine job running
the list. Heck we hear from him mor than Nimer probably cause he works
etc. etc. If this list is going to be run like this in future I don't
want any part of it. Just my 2cents.

On 3/22/2016 9:29 AM, Laz wrote:
Hello,

I must say that I wholeheartedly agree with Gene. I will also add that
voting on names of strangers to be elected to an important position
such as a list moderator could end up having an unqualified candidate
who may have other intentions than those mentioned being voted into
the position and given power to do as they secretly intend. Just look
at the track history of politics. List ownership and moderation is not
a democratic process by any means. We have no idea as to the true
character of most list members. I have already seen one proposal for a
candidate which I'm not certain would make a good moderator as I
believe it's an alias of someone else on the list and that's all I'm
going to say about that. I sincerely hope that Nimer will keep the
power of veto and put a stop to any unqualified person being voted
into the role of moderator.

Laz

On 3/22/16, Gene <gsasner@ripco.com> wrote:
I spent a lot of time and thought replying to this message. Now I
see that
it was rejected because of restricted hash tags. I shall send it
again with
another subject line and I shall make one additional commenbt at the
outset

Since I initially wrote my message, I have seen the start of what will
probably be an avalanche of messages regarding nominations and
discussions
of nominees. I did not join this list to receive hundreds or
thousands of
administration messages nor did most who joined. We joined to
discuss NVDA,
not how to run the list nor who should be in charge.

I appreciate the work you have done in moderating the list and I
appreciate
your intentions. But this is just not the way to run a list. If you
are
determined to run the list as a democracy, please set up a chat
subgroup for
those who want to discuss nominations and make submissions or ask
that such
submissions be sent to you off list, either or both. The main NVDA
list
should be to discuss NVDA and not democratic administrative nor
election
matters except to announce the actual election and present
information about
the nominees.

Here is what I wrote previously.

I almost never comment on list administration on the list but this
is an
exception. If you want to step down, that's your decision and I am not
writing to question or challenge the decision. But generational
change,
when the generation in question is probably in its late twenties or
early
thirties at most makes no sense as a reason. If you are worried about
succession, then it would be far better to have some mechanism where
you
appoint someone to take over with the prior approval of the list owner.

I have never been on, nor ever heard, of a list run like a
democracy. There
are good reasons for this. This is not a democracy, where people have
records and attributes that are known to most members regarding list
administration. There a very few active members and most discussion is
about NVDA in some way. If members were asked to vote on who has
the most
knowledge of NVDA, for example, there would be some grounds for
members to
vote. But this is a list to discuss NVDA. It is not a place where
people
display records of leadership and personality that members are aware
of and
can use to choose a leader. (I don't even know the names of more than
perhaps ten or twenty members on the list and I know them not
because of any
demonstrated personality traits that relate to running the list. I
know
them because they discuss NVDA. There is no corellation between
that and
being able to determine who has the qualities best suited to run a
list.
You may know people well enough yourself to make such a
determination and
frankly, in this context, you and the list owner should do so. I
shall,
respectfully, not vote in the upcoming election. I am not
knowledgeable and
cannot cast an informed meaningful vote and most list members can't
cast an
informed meaningful vote either.

If the list were really a democratic institution, we would have people
holding office with campaigns and some sort of mechanisms for people
to get
to know and evaluate those who serve and run for office. There would be
periodic elections. If we make a mistake and appoint someone who
does not
do a good job in error, this being a list, not a democratic
institution, we
have no means of recall or no periodic elections to replace the
person. We
are electing someone for an indefinite term with most members having no
meaningful information on which to make a decision.

On every list I've been on, the owner runs the list and makes decisions
relevant to administration and the owner and moderators decide how
to divide
up tasks such as moderation. As I said, there are good reasons that
lists
are not run as democracies.

And making some sort of divide in generations when the generation in
their
late twenties or early thirties has most of its collective life to
live is a
really bad idea. The United States Constitution has minimum ages for
assuming different offices. That's because it was believed that
knowledge,
wisdom, and maturity increase with age. What about all those who
may be in
their forties, fifties, sixties, and beyond who may be better
qualified by
the knowledge and experience they have gotten? Are you taking the
position
that anyone under the age of thirty, for example will be considered
to run
the list but those older won't?

The more I think about the reason you gave for stepping down and the
means
you propose to fill the vacancy, the more I realize what a bad
rationale and
procedure it is. And a further irony is that you propose a democratic
election to fill the position but you haven't held an election on
whether
the list should be run as a democracy or in the traditional or other
way.
Isn't that the first thing that should be decided by democratic
means if the
list is a democratic institution? Democracy is not suited to all
institutions and this list is one of them.

As I said at the outset, if you want to step down, I have no quarrel
with
that decision. That is your decision and I am not writing to
question the
decision. But I strongly disagree with the reason given and the
procedure
to fill the vacancy.

I considered writing you off list but, if the list is being run as a
democracy, it follows that other list members should know my
thoughts on
this matter.

Gene
------ Original Message -----
From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 10:26 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Important moderator's letter: I'd like to request next
generation of NVDA enthusiasts to come to the moderator's seat
#ModNotice
#AdminNotice


Dear members of the NVDA International Users list and the wider NVDA
community:



For some, change of generation is a scary thing, while others would
say it
is a wonderful way to reflect upon our past and think about the
future. As a
moderator of this list and the chair of the NVDA Tenth Anniversary
Planning
Committee, I had a chance to think about this today. Specifically, I
was
struck by the following thought: If I die tonight, who'll carry on
my legacy
and serve as a moderator who'll shower you with more love than I did?



You see, for some time, I thought it is better to let a generational
change
happen. We now have members of the next generation who are very
enthusiastic
about NVDA and its community, people who are showing leadership
potential
and folks who are willing to love and serve you and the wider
community. And
I thought that this is a good time to carry this out, seeing that
some of
these new enthusiasts are the ones who are actively involved in
promoting
NVDA and events related to its tenth anniversary.



Thus, effective May 31, 2016, I'll step down from the moderator
position I
held for the past three years. I'd like to request that members of
this list
hold a list-wide election to elect the new moderator. I'll remain a
member
of this list, obeying the new moderator and serving the NVDA community.



Thank you everyone for your support for the past few years.



Cheers,

Joseph

P.S. My blog post on this decision can be found at:

http://joslee22590.blogspot.com/2016/03/if-i-die-tonight-1-legacy-letting-go-of.html













--
search for me on facebook, google+, orkut..
austinpinto.xaviers@gmail.com
follow me on twitter.
austinmpinto
contact me on skype.
austin.pinto3


Re: Electing a new moderator

Arlene
 

Yes. I enjoy this crazy old list!

-----Original Message-----
From: Rosemarie Chavarria [mailto:knitqueen2007@gmail.com]
Sent: March-22-16 8:38 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator

Hi, Arleen,

I'll give this new person a chance and see how things go. I too wish
Joseph all the best in his new adventures.

Rosemarie



On 3/22/2016 7:07 PM, Arlene wrote:
I'd give the stranger a chance to see if he's going to be a good mod. If not then I'd leave. I wish Josiph all the luck in his new adventures.

-----Original Message-----
From: Rosemarie Chavarria [mailto:knitqueen2007@gmail.com]
Sent: March-22-16 4:07 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator

Hi, Lino,

I agree that Joseph has done a damn good job of running this list. I
might just leave the group too if the list has to be run by a perfect
stranger. It's a shame that Joseph has to step down.

Rosemarie



On 3/22/2016 2:36 PM, Lino Morales wrote:
I also agree with Gene here. Joseph has done a damn fine job running
the list. Heck we hear from him mor than Nimer probably cause he works
etc. etc. If this list is going to be run like this in future I don't
want any part of it. Just my 2cents.

On 3/22/2016 9:29 AM, Laz wrote:
Hello,

I must say that I wholeheartedly agree with Gene. I will also add that
voting on names of strangers to be elected to an important position
such as a list moderator could end up having an unqualified candidate
who may have other intentions than those mentioned being voted into
the position and given power to do as they secretly intend. Just look
at the track history of politics. List ownership and moderation is not
a democratic process by any means. We have no idea as to the true
character of most list members. I have already seen one proposal for a
candidate which I'm not certain would make a good moderator as I
believe it's an alias of someone else on the list and that's all I'm
going to say about that. I sincerely hope that Nimer will keep the
power of veto and put a stop to any unqualified person being voted
into the role of moderator.

Laz

On 3/22/16, Gene <gsasner@ripco.com> wrote:
I spent a lot of time and thought replying to this message. Now I
see that
it was rejected because of restricted hash tags. I shall send it
again with
another subject line and I shall make one additional commenbt at the
outset

Since I initially wrote my message, I have seen the start of what will
probably be an avalanche of messages regarding nominations and
discussions
of nominees. I did not join this list to receive hundreds or
thousands of
administration messages nor did most who joined. We joined to
discuss NVDA,
not how to run the list nor who should be in charge.

I appreciate the work you have done in moderating the list and I
appreciate
your intentions. But this is just not the way to run a list. If you
are
determined to run the list as a democracy, please set up a chat
subgroup for
those who want to discuss nominations and make submissions or ask
that such
submissions be sent to you off list, either or both. The main NVDA
list
should be to discuss NVDA and not democratic administrative nor
election
matters except to announce the actual election and present
information about
the nominees.

Here is what I wrote previously.

I almost never comment on list administration on the list but this
is an
exception. If you want to step down, that's your decision and I am not
writing to question or challenge the decision. But generational
change,
when the generation in question is probably in its late twenties or
early
thirties at most makes no sense as a reason. If you are worried about
succession, then it would be far better to have some mechanism where
you
appoint someone to take over with the prior approval of the list owner.

I have never been on, nor ever heard, of a list run like a
democracy. There
are good reasons for this. This is not a democracy, where people have
records and attributes that are known to most members regarding list
administration. There a very few active members and most discussion is
about NVDA in some way. If members were asked to vote on who has
the most
knowledge of NVDA, for example, there would be some grounds for
members to
vote. But this is a list to discuss NVDA. It is not a place where
people
display records of leadership and personality that members are aware
of and
can use to choose a leader. (I don't even know the names of more than
perhaps ten or twenty members on the list and I know them not
because of any
demonstrated personality traits that relate to running the list. I
know
them because they discuss NVDA. There is no corellation between
that and
being able to determine who has the qualities best suited to run a
list.
You may know people well enough yourself to make such a
determination and
frankly, in this context, you and the list owner should do so. I
shall,
respectfully, not vote in the upcoming election. I am not
knowledgeable and
cannot cast an informed meaningful vote and most list members can't
cast an
informed meaningful vote either.

If the list were really a democratic institution, we would have people
holding office with campaigns and some sort of mechanisms for people
to get
to know and evaluate those who serve and run for office. There would be
periodic elections. If we make a mistake and appoint someone who
does not
do a good job in error, this being a list, not a democratic
institution, we
have no means of recall or no periodic elections to replace the
person. We
are electing someone for an indefinite term with most members having no
meaningful information on which to make a decision.

On every list I've been on, the owner runs the list and makes decisions
relevant to administration and the owner and moderators decide how
to divide
up tasks such as moderation. As I said, there are good reasons that
lists
are not run as democracies.

And making some sort of divide in generations when the generation in
their
late twenties or early thirties has most of its collective life to
live is a
really bad idea. The United States Constitution has minimum ages for
assuming different offices. That's because it was believed that
knowledge,
wisdom, and maturity increase with age. What about all those who
may be in
their forties, fifties, sixties, and beyond who may be better
qualified by
the knowledge and experience they have gotten? Are you taking the
position
that anyone under the age of thirty, for example will be considered
to run
the list but those older won't?

The more I think about the reason you gave for stepping down and the
means
you propose to fill the vacancy, the more I realize what a bad
rationale and
procedure it is. And a further irony is that you propose a democratic
election to fill the position but you haven't held an election on
whether
the list should be run as a democracy or in the traditional or other
way.
Isn't that the first thing that should be decided by democratic
means if the
list is a democratic institution? Democracy is not suited to all
institutions and this list is one of them.

As I said at the outset, if you want to step down, I have no quarrel
with
that decision. That is your decision and I am not writing to
question the
decision. But I strongly disagree with the reason given and the
procedure
to fill the vacancy.

I considered writing you off list but, if the list is being run as a
democracy, it follows that other list members should know my
thoughts on
this matter.

Gene
------ Original Message -----
From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 10:26 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Important moderator's letter: I'd like to request next
generation of NVDA enthusiasts to come to the moderator's seat
#ModNotice
#AdminNotice


Dear members of the NVDA International Users list and the wider NVDA
community:



For some, change of generation is a scary thing, while others would
say it
is a wonderful way to reflect upon our past and think about the
future. As a
moderator of this list and the chair of the NVDA Tenth Anniversary
Planning
Committee, I had a chance to think about this today. Specifically, I
was
struck by the following thought: If I die tonight, who'll carry on
my legacy
and serve as a moderator who'll shower you with more love than I did?



You see, for some time, I thought it is better to let a generational
change
happen. We now have members of the next generation who are very
enthusiastic
about NVDA and its community, people who are showing leadership
potential
and folks who are willing to love and serve you and the wider
community. And
I thought that this is a good time to carry this out, seeing that
some of
these new enthusiasts are the ones who are actively involved in
promoting
NVDA and events related to its tenth anniversary.



Thus, effective May 31, 2016, I'll step down from the moderator
position I
held for the past three years. I'd like to request that members of
this list
hold a list-wide election to elect the new moderator. I'll remain a
member
of this list, obeying the new moderator and serving the NVDA community.



Thank you everyone for your support for the past few years.



Cheers,

Joseph

P.S. My blog post on this decision can be found at:

http://joslee22590.blogspot.com/2016/03/if-i-die-tonight-1-legacy-letting-go-of.html










Re: Electing a new moderator

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Hi, Arleen,

I'll give this new person a chance and see how things go. I too wish Joseph all the best in his new adventures.

Rosemarie

On 3/22/2016 7:07 PM, Arlene wrote:
I'd give the stranger a chance to see if he's going to be a good mod. If not then I'd leave. I wish Josiph all the luck in his new adventures.

-----Original Message-----
From: Rosemarie Chavarria [mailto:knitqueen2007@gmail.com]
Sent: March-22-16 4:07 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator

Hi, Lino,

I agree that Joseph has done a damn good job of running this list. I
might just leave the group too if the list has to be run by a perfect
stranger. It's a shame that Joseph has to step down.

Rosemarie



On 3/22/2016 2:36 PM, Lino Morales wrote:
I also agree with Gene here. Joseph has done a damn fine job running
the list. Heck we hear from him mor than Nimer probably cause he works
etc. etc. If this list is going to be run like this in future I don't
want any part of it. Just my 2cents.

On 3/22/2016 9:29 AM, Laz wrote:
Hello,

I must say that I wholeheartedly agree with Gene. I will also add that
voting on names of strangers to be elected to an important position
such as a list moderator could end up having an unqualified candidate
who may have other intentions than those mentioned being voted into
the position and given power to do as they secretly intend. Just look
at the track history of politics. List ownership and moderation is not
a democratic process by any means. We have no idea as to the true
character of most list members. I have already seen one proposal for a
candidate which I'm not certain would make a good moderator as I
believe it's an alias of someone else on the list and that's all I'm
going to say about that. I sincerely hope that Nimer will keep the
power of veto and put a stop to any unqualified person being voted
into the role of moderator.

Laz

On 3/22/16, Gene <gsasner@ripco.com> wrote:
I spent a lot of time and thought replying to this message. Now I
see that
it was rejected because of restricted hash tags. I shall send it
again with
another subject line and I shall make one additional commenbt at the
outset

Since I initially wrote my message, I have seen the start of what will
probably be an avalanche of messages regarding nominations and
discussions
of nominees. I did not join this list to receive hundreds or
thousands of
administration messages nor did most who joined. We joined to
discuss NVDA,
not how to run the list nor who should be in charge.

I appreciate the work you have done in moderating the list and I
appreciate
your intentions. But this is just not the way to run a list. If you
are
determined to run the list as a democracy, please set up a chat
subgroup for
those who want to discuss nominations and make submissions or ask
that such
submissions be sent to you off list, either or both. The main NVDA
list
should be to discuss NVDA and not democratic administrative nor
election
matters except to announce the actual election and present
information about
the nominees.

Here is what I wrote previously.

I almost never comment on list administration on the list but this
is an
exception. If you want to step down, that's your decision and I am not
writing to question or challenge the decision. But generational
change,
when the generation in question is probably in its late twenties or
early
thirties at most makes no sense as a reason. If you are worried about
succession, then it would be far better to have some mechanism where
you
appoint someone to take over with the prior approval of the list owner.

I have never been on, nor ever heard, of a list run like a
democracy. There
are good reasons for this. This is not a democracy, where people have
records and attributes that are known to most members regarding list
administration. There a very few active members and most discussion is
about NVDA in some way. If members were asked to vote on who has
the most
knowledge of NVDA, for example, there would be some grounds for
members to
vote. But this is a list to discuss NVDA. It is not a place where
people
display records of leadership and personality that members are aware
of and
can use to choose a leader. (I don't even know the names of more than
perhaps ten or twenty members on the list and I know them not
because of any
demonstrated personality traits that relate to running the list. I
know
them because they discuss NVDA. There is no corellation between
that and
being able to determine who has the qualities best suited to run a
list.
You may know people well enough yourself to make such a
determination and
frankly, in this context, you and the list owner should do so. I
shall,
respectfully, not vote in the upcoming election. I am not
knowledgeable and
cannot cast an informed meaningful vote and most list members can't
cast an
informed meaningful vote either.

If the list were really a democratic institution, we would have people
holding office with campaigns and some sort of mechanisms for people
to get
to know and evaluate those who serve and run for office. There would be
periodic elections. If we make a mistake and appoint someone who
does not
do a good job in error, this being a list, not a democratic
institution, we
have no means of recall or no periodic elections to replace the
person. We
are electing someone for an indefinite term with most members having no
meaningful information on which to make a decision.

On every list I've been on, the owner runs the list and makes decisions
relevant to administration and the owner and moderators decide how
to divide
up tasks such as moderation. As I said, there are good reasons that
lists
are not run as democracies.

And making some sort of divide in generations when the generation in
their
late twenties or early thirties has most of its collective life to
live is a
really bad idea. The United States Constitution has minimum ages for
assuming different offices. That's because it was believed that
knowledge,
wisdom, and maturity increase with age. What about all those who
may be in
their forties, fifties, sixties, and beyond who may be better
qualified by
the knowledge and experience they have gotten? Are you taking the
position
that anyone under the age of thirty, for example will be considered
to run
the list but those older won't?

The more I think about the reason you gave for stepping down and the
means
you propose to fill the vacancy, the more I realize what a bad
rationale and
procedure it is. And a further irony is that you propose a democratic
election to fill the position but you haven't held an election on
whether
the list should be run as a democracy or in the traditional or other
way.
Isn't that the first thing that should be decided by democratic
means if the
list is a democratic institution? Democracy is not suited to all
institutions and this list is one of them.

As I said at the outset, if you want to step down, I have no quarrel
with
that decision. That is your decision and I am not writing to
question the
decision. But I strongly disagree with the reason given and the
procedure
to fill the vacancy.

I considered writing you off list but, if the list is being run as a
democracy, it follows that other list members should know my
thoughts on
this matter.

Gene
------ Original Message -----
From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 10:26 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Important moderator's letter: I'd like to request next
generation of NVDA enthusiasts to come to the moderator's seat
#ModNotice
#AdminNotice


Dear members of the NVDA International Users list and the wider NVDA
community:



For some, change of generation is a scary thing, while others would
say it
is a wonderful way to reflect upon our past and think about the
future. As a
moderator of this list and the chair of the NVDA Tenth Anniversary
Planning
Committee, I had a chance to think about this today. Specifically, I
was
struck by the following thought: If I die tonight, who'll carry on
my legacy
and serve as a moderator who'll shower you with more love than I did?



You see, for some time, I thought it is better to let a generational
change
happen. We now have members of the next generation who are very
enthusiastic
about NVDA and its community, people who are showing leadership
potential
and folks who are willing to love and serve you and the wider
community. And
I thought that this is a good time to carry this out, seeing that
some of
these new enthusiasts are the ones who are actively involved in
promoting
NVDA and events related to its tenth anniversary.



Thus, effective May 31, 2016, I'll step down from the moderator
position I
held for the past three years. I'd like to request that members of
this list
hold a list-wide election to elect the new moderator. I'll remain a
member
of this list, obeying the new moderator and serving the NVDA community.



Thank you everyone for your support for the past few years.



Cheers,

Joseph

P.S. My blog post on this decision can be found at:

http://joslee22590.blogspot.com/2016/03/if-i-die-tonight-1-legacy-letting-go-of.html