Date   

Re: The danger at the moment of this moderation thread.

 

Hi,
Clarification: I'm the head admin of Win10 forum, not this list.

-----Original Message-----
From: Joseph Lee [mailto:@joslee]
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 10:02 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The danger at the moment of this moderation thread.

Hi all,

Subgroups is one of the reasons why we switched to Groups.IO along with
polls, wiki and others (wiki isn't turned on because we already have a
community wiki). When we switched to Groups.IO earlier this month, I
envisioned (Nimer may or may not have) a subgroup just for talking about
list matters (policies and so on), similar to the setup on Win10 forum where
there is an actual subgroup for discussing list policies, administration
matters and so on (I'm indeed the head admin; perhaps I need to advertise
the existence of that subgroup on Win10 forum today...), hence one of the
questions in the proposal (posted yesterday) was creation of a subgroup.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: Christopher-Mark Gilland [mailto:@AHeart4God316]
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 9:50 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The danger at the moment of this moderation thread.

As much as I 100% agree with Joseph's way of doing this, I also must say,
with all due respect, I agree with Brian.

I think a subgroup is actually a fantastic idea, and why I didn't think of
that sooner is beyond me.
---
Christopher Gilland
JAWS Certified, 2016.
Training Instructor.

@AHeart4God316
Phone: (704) 256-8010 Extension 401.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian's Mail list account" <bglists@...>
To: <nvda@groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 5:41 AM
Subject: [nvda] The danger at the moment of this moderation thread.


Is that its all engulfing. Personally, I think one needs to have this
on a
special group for admin of nvda lists generally.
I fear that those coming in in the last few days who want help are
drowned
out by repeated messages about who how what where and how to vote etc etc.


Cannot an announcement just be put here that cannot be followed up?
or is that what happened when I got cryptic bounces from this list
yesterday. i see mention of sub groups. One supposes this is in effect
a new group but automatically, those subscribed here, also get
subscribed there. this will be good as I can then sort them on the
group name be it a new name or something related


So, can we perhaps do this now. I've kind of lost the will to live
looking
through the various threads on this, of which I know I've just created
another, sorry.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.



Re: The danger at the moment of this moderation thread.

 

Hi all,

Subgroups is one of the reasons why we switched to Groups.IO along with
polls, wiki and others (wiki isn't turned on because we already have a
community wiki). When we switched to Groups.IO earlier this month, I
envisioned (Nimer may or may not have) a subgroup just for talking about
list matters (policies and so on), similar to the setup on Win10 forum where
there is an actual subgroup for discussing list policies, administration
matters and so on (I'm indeed the head admin; perhaps I need to advertise
the existence of that subgroup on Win10 forum today...), hence one of the
questions in the proposal (posted yesterday) was creation of a subgroup.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: Christopher-Mark Gilland [mailto:@AHeart4God316]
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 9:50 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The danger at the moment of this moderation thread.

As much as I 100% agree with Joseph's way of doing this, I also must say,
with all due respect, I agree with Brian.

I think a subgroup is actually a fantastic idea, and why I didn't think of
that sooner is beyond me.
---
Christopher Gilland
JAWS Certified, 2016.
Training Instructor.

@AHeart4God316
Phone: (704) 256-8010 Extension 401.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian's Mail list account" <bglists@...>
To: <nvda@groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 5:41 AM
Subject: [nvda] The danger at the moment of this moderation thread.


Is that its all engulfing. Personally, I think one needs to have this on a
special group for admin of nvda lists generally.
I fear that those coming in in the last few days who want help are drowned
out by repeated messages about who how what where and how to vote etc etc.


Cannot an announcement just be put here that cannot be followed up?
or is that what happened when I got cryptic bounces from this list
yesterday. i see mention of sub groups. One supposes this is in effect a
new group but automatically, those subscribed here, also get subscribed
there. this will be good as I can then sort them on the group name be it
a new name or something related


So, can we perhaps do this now. I've kind of lost the will to live looking
through the various threads on this, of which I know I've just created
another, sorry.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.



Re: Very concerned, was: qualifying to manage a list (stupid hash tags)

Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>
 

Wait,
 
who's Michael?  I thought it was Joseph Lee. Now I'm confused.  LOL!
---
Christopher Gilland
JAWS Certified, 2016.
Training Instructor.
 
clgilland07@...
Phone: (704) 256-8010 Extension 401.

----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 10:17 AM
Subject: Re: Very concerned, was: [nvda] qualifying to manage a list (stupid hash tags)

I did not and I went out of my way to say, that I was not criticizing Michael lee for stepping down.  I criticized the reasons he gave and pointed out that that reason implies that younger members might be considered for the position while older people might not be because they are not and cannot be part of the generational shift.  If most people resigned from things because they were in their late twenties or early thirties, we would lose most of the experience and knowledge that comes with age.  If most of us resigned because we were worried about who would carry on if some mishap happened to us, then everyone would have to resign from everything because a mishap can happen to anyone.  That's why there are procedures that institutions have for filling a vacancy left by death or disability. 
 
I also said that I appreciate the work Michael Lee did in running the list. 
 
My main criticism was to the proposal to elect the next moderator. 
 
If Michael Lee wants to resign, that's his decision.  I did not criticize that decision. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 7:40 AM
Subject: Re: Very concerned, was: [nvda] qualifying to manage a list (stupid hash tags)

Unlike Gene, and others, I must say I do not concur with them.  If anything, I actually am with Travis, AKA, Kwork, on this one.  Joseph has done a magnificent job, and the fact that he was man enough to step up and say, I don't feel that I can do this anymore adiquitly took lots of courage!  I'm very proud of him for being so honest and so up front, yet being so respectful to all of us in how he did things.  To his credit, I think we all need to give Mr. Lee a bit of a break.  I really can tell in my heart that he truly, truly does care, and is trying his darndest, contrary to what a lot of you all may think, or believe.
 
He's not burnt out.  I had a member yesterday who will be 100% left nameless, who called me at the phone number listed in my signature.
 
He or she kept asking me over and over again if I felt Joseph was burned out.  For the record, let me just say this.  I had planned today to talk to this person more if the questions continued, but honestly... look... he/she called me on my tech support line, and when I said I'm not here to play the middle man in this, go ask Joseph directly, go read his blog post which explains everything of his reasonings, they didn't apparently do so.  I have no issue talking to others, including this member both as a friend, and as a business related thing, but don't! put me as the middle man, off business hours or not.  That really put me in a very uncomfortable position yesterday. I felt put on the immediate spot, as I didn't want to say anything privately or publicly, and be taken as being rude, but I neither wanted to  hold back and not say how I felt about things.
 
I'm just a member of the list, and a fairly new one at that.  Just because I put my work phone number in my signature doesn't mean I did so, so that people could call me about list admin duties.  I'm not a mod, nor an admin, nor wish to be frankly.
 
My point is, if Joseph really were "burnt out," quote unquote, then don't you think he probably wouldn't have been so willing to explain on his blog?  He posted that link for a reason, and that reason wasn't to have people just ignore it, then later wonder.  It's the whole shoot and kill now, ask questions later principle.  It shouldn't be that way.  Joseph gave you all a resource to look at, if you're wondering, so, for goodness sake, use it if you're wonderring.  I, shouldn't have to be the one to clear this up for everyone on the list.  It's not my responsibility, nor my problem.
 
Again, sorry to be so brutally direct about this statement, but I had to say something before this got more out of hand than it already has, and I beg the admins' pardon for having to say this publicly with my utmost of respect for them.
---
Christopher Gilland
JAWS Certified, 2016.
Training Instructor.
 
clgilland07@...
Phone: (704) 256-8010 Extension 401.
----- Original Message -----
From: Kwork
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 12:32 PM
Subject: [nvda] qualifying to manage a list (stupid hash tags)

Joseph, those are very good points on which to choose a new moderator. I think that another point is that they also need to be respected by the majority of the list members where they will serve, and that's where the on list voting will help. The more that vote on this type of topic, the greater the chance that cooler heads will prevail, and the transition will be a smooth one.
Thank you, Joseph, for all the work you've done with NVDA, and this list, over the past three years.
Travis
----- Original Message -----
From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 11:19 PM
Subject: [nvda] Follow-up: moderator qualifications #ModNotice #AdminNotice

Hi,

 

If you or someone you know fulfills all (yes, ALL) of the following requirements, then please put forth your name or that person’s name as the candidate for the new moderator (note that this isn’t about head moderator position, and our current head moderator is Nimer Jaber):

 

1.       Have used NVDA for the past three years or more.

2.       Have been a member of this forum and other NVDA forums for the past three years or more.

3.       Ability to communicate well, especially when confronting a crisis such as misbehaving members, off-topic messages and such.

4.       Ability to communicate kindly (and with humility) even in the face of adversity (especially during arbitration hearing proceedings).

5.       Willingness to seek advice from moderators and members of this forum when making list-wide decisions.

6.       Familiarity with Groups.IO administration controls.

7.       Ability to serve as a user-side advocate when talking to NV Access and other NVDA developers.

8.       Ability to deliver important news from NV Access such as NVDA release announcements in a timely manner.

9.       Willingness to step down from position of power when appropriate (recalled, on his or her own will and so on).

10.   Willingness to shower members of this list and the wider NVDA community with love and mercy, including to misbehaving members.

11.   Having the servant’s attitude (to serve, not to be served).

12.   Willingness to be accountable and answerable to members of this list and the public.

13.   Must be at least 21 years of age or older (or considered an adult in the country a candidate resides in).

 

Some of you may say, “look, these requirements are too hard.” I believe that, as a public face of this list (alongside other moderators and members), you are responsible for the fate and reputation of this list, and in extension, NVDA community and NVDA screen reader itself. Thus only applications from serious candidates will be accepted (applications will be accepted until early April, and election will be held by end of April so the new moderator can adjust to his or her new role throughout May).

 

Thank you.

Cheers,

Joseph

P.S. The reason for making these requirements tough is because of the following blog post:

http://joslee22590.blogspot.com/2016/03/if-i-die-tonight-2-showering-forum.html?spref=tw

Although the post talks about head moderators, it applies to associate moderators as well. Good luck.


Re: The danger at the moment of this moderation thread.

Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>
 

Awesome, Austin. thank you for the help. I'm so sorry, so forgive me. Are you also one of the list admins? I'm just curious.
---
Christopher Gilland
JAWS Certified, 2016.
Training Instructor.

@AHeart4God316
Phone: (704) 256-8010 Extension 401.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Austin Pinto" <@austin>
To: <nvda@groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 5:45 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The danger at the moment of this moderation thread.


sub group work in progress

On 3/23/16, Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...> wrote:
Is that its all engulfing. Personally, I think one needs to have this on a
special group for admin of nvda lists generally.
I fear that those coming in in the last few days who want help are drowned

out by repeated messages about who how what where and how to vote etc etc.


Cannot an announcement just be put here that cannot be followed up?
or is that what happened when I got cryptic bounces from this list
yesterday. i see mention of sub groups. One supposes this is in effect a new

group but automatically, those subscribed here, also get subscribed there.

this will be good as I can then sort them on the group name be it a new
name or something related


So, can we perhaps do this now. I've kind of lost the will to live looking
through the various threads on this, of which I know I've just created
another, sorry.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.





--
search for me on facebook, google+, orkut..
@austin
follow me on twitter.
austinmpinto
contact me on skype.
austin.pinto3


Re: The danger at the moment of this moderation thread.

Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>
 

As much as I 100% agree with Joseph's way of doing this, I also must say, with all due respect, I agree with Brian.

I think a subgroup is actually a fantastic idea, and why I didn't think of that sooner is beyond me.
---
Christopher Gilland
JAWS Certified, 2016.
Training Instructor.

@AHeart4God316
Phone: (704) 256-8010 Extension 401.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian's Mail list account" <bglists@...>
To: <nvda@groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 5:41 AM
Subject: [nvda] The danger at the moment of this moderation thread.


Is that its all engulfing. Personally, I think one needs to have this on a special group for admin of nvda lists generally.
I fear that those coming in in the last few days who want help are drowned out by repeated messages about who how what where and how to vote etc etc.


Cannot an announcement just be put here that cannot be followed up?
or is that what happened when I got cryptic bounces from this list yesterday. i see mention of sub groups. One supposes this is in effect a new group but automatically, those subscribed here, also get subscribed there. this will be good as I can then sort them on the group name be it a new name or something related


So, can we perhaps do this now. I've kind of lost the will to live looking through the various threads on this, of which I know I've just created another, sorry.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.


Re: Very concerned, was: qualifying to manage a list (stupid hash tags)

 

Hi Gene and others,

I did record an address that I shall post a link to shortly.

 

Perhaps I may have used a wrong word: when I talk about change of generation, what I really meant was the next group of enthusiasts. Sorry about the confusion.

 

As for concerns that I’ll be leaving this community: resignation doesn’t mean departure. I’ll still be around to answer questions, participating as a member and one of the code contributors to NVDA screen reader.

 

As for hashtag issue people were getting: all fixed. Sorry for the inconvenience.

 

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: Gene [mailto:gsasner@...]
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 7:17 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: Very concerned, was: [nvda] qualifying to manage a list (stupid hash tags)

 

I did not and I went out of my way to say, that I was not criticizing Michael lee for stepping down.  I criticized the reasons he gave and pointed out that that reason implies that younger members might be considered for the position while older people might not be because they are not and cannot be part of the generational shift.  If most people resigned from things because they were in their late twenties or early thirties, we would lose most of the experience and knowledge that comes with age.  If most of us resigned because we were worried about who would carry on if some mishap happened to us, then everyone would have to resign from everything because a mishap can happen to anyone.  That's why there are procedures that institutions have for filling a vacancy left by death or disability. 

 

I also said that I appreciate the work Michael Lee did in running the list. 

 

My main criticism was to the proposal to elect the next moderator. 

 

If Michael Lee wants to resign, that's his decision.  I did not criticize that decision. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 7:40 AM

Subject: Re: Very concerned, was: [nvda] qualifying to manage a list (stupid hash tags)

 

Unlike Gene, and others, I must say I do not concur with them.  If anything, I actually am with Travis, AKA, Kwork, on this one.  Joseph has done a magnificent job, and the fact that he was man enough to step up and say, I don't feel that I can do this anymore adiquitly took lots of courage!  I'm very proud of him for being so honest and so up front, yet being so respectful to all of us in how he did things.  To his credit, I think we all need to give Mr. Lee a bit of a break.  I really can tell in my heart that he truly, truly does care, and is trying his darndest, contrary to what a lot of you all may think, or believe.

 

He's not burnt out.  I had a member yesterday who will be 100% left nameless, who called me at the phone number listed in my signature.

 

He or she kept asking me over and over again if I felt Joseph was burned out.  For the record, let me just say this.  I had planned today to talk to this person more if the questions continued, but honestly... look... he/she called me on my tech support line, and when I said I'm not here to play the middle man in this, go ask Joseph directly, go read his blog post which explains everything of his reasonings, they didn't apparently do so.  I have no issue talking to others, including this member both as a friend, and as a business related thing, but don't! put me as the middle man, off business hours or not.  That really put me in a very uncomfortable position yesterday. I felt put on the immediate spot, as I didn't want to say anything privately or publicly, and be taken as being rude, but I neither wanted to  hold back and not say how I felt about things.

 

I'm just a member of the list, and a fairly new one at that.  Just because I put my work phone number in my signature doesn't mean I did so, so that people could call me about list admin duties.  I'm not a mod, nor an admin, nor wish to be frankly.

 

My point is, if Joseph really were "burnt out," quote unquote, then don't you think he probably wouldn't have been so willing to explain on his blog?  He posted that link for a reason, and that reason wasn't to have people just ignore it, then later wonder.  It's the whole shoot and kill now, ask questions later principle.  It shouldn't be that way.  Joseph gave you all a resource to look at, if you're wondering, so, for goodness sake, use it if you're wonderring.  I, shouldn't have to be the one to clear this up for everyone on the list.  It's not my responsibility, nor my problem.

 

Again, sorry to be so brutally direct about this statement, but I had to say something before this got more out of hand than it already has, and I beg the admins' pardon for having to say this publicly with my utmost of respect for them.

---
Christopher Gilland
JAWS Certified, 2016.
Training Instructor.

 

clgilland07@...
Phone: (704) 256-8010 Extension 401.

----- Original Message -----

From: Kwork

Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 12:32 PM

Subject: [nvda] qualifying to manage a list (stupid hash tags)

 

Joseph, those are very good points on which to choose a new moderator. I think that another point is that they also need to be respected by the majority of the list members where they will serve, and that's where the on list voting will help. The more that vote on this type of topic, the greater the chance that cooler heads will prevail, and the transition will be a smooth one.

Thank you, Joseph, for all the work you've done with NVDA, and this list, over the past three years.

Travis

----- Original Message -----

From: Joseph Lee

Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 11:19 PM

Subject: [nvda] Follow-up: moderator qualifications #ModNotice #AdminNotice

 

Hi,

 

If you or someone you know fulfills all (yes, ALL) of the following requirements, then please put forth your name or that person’s name as the candidate for the new moderator (note that this isn’t about head moderator position, and our current head moderator is Nimer Jaber):

 

1.       Have used NVDA for the past three years or more.

2.       Have been a member of this forum and other NVDA forums for the past three years or more.

3.       Ability to communicate well, especially when confronting a crisis such as misbehaving members, off-topic messages and such.

4.       Ability to communicate kindly (and with humility) even in the face of adversity (especially during arbitration hearing proceedings).

5.       Willingness to seek advice from moderators and members of this forum when making list-wide decisions.

6.       Familiarity with Groups.IO administration controls.

7.       Ability to serve as a user-side advocate when talking to NV Access and other NVDA developers.

8.       Ability to deliver important news from NV Access such as NVDA release announcements in a timely manner.

9.       Willingness to step down from position of power when appropriate (recalled, on his or her own will and so on).

10.   Willingness to shower members of this list and the wider NVDA community with love and mercy, including to misbehaving members.

11.   Having the servant’s attitude (to serve, not to be served).

12.   Willingness to be accountable and answerable to members of this list and the public.

13.   Must be at least 21 years of age or older (or considered an adult in the country a candidate resides in).

 

Some of you may say, “look, these requirements are too hard.” I believe that, as a public face of this list (alongside other moderators and members), you are responsible for the fate and reputation of this list, and in extension, NVDA community and NVDA screen reader itself. Thus only applications from serious candidates will be accepted (applications will be accepted until early April, and election will be held by end of April so the new moderator can adjust to his or her new role throughout May).

 

Thank you.

Cheers,

Joseph

P.S. The reason for making these requirements tough is because of the following blog post:

http://joslee22590.blogspot.com/2016/03/if-i-die-tonight-2-showering-forum.html?spref=tw

Although the post talks about head moderators, it applies to associate moderators as well. Good luck.


Re: Using Chicken Nugett with NVDA 2-16.1 with Win 10

Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>
 

Please do not take this as me saying RTFM and go away, as that is, 100% ab, suh, lootly! not what I am saying! Not even close! Seriously though, have you looked at the included readme? Chris does an outstanding job at outlining all the different commands, and how to go about using them. I, along with others are very much willing to help. Please please know that, and I am not saying that the docs should be a replacement for seeking help here on list. I'm simply offerring you this as a further suggestion in addition to asking here. Chicken Nugget is quite powerful, and trying to teach you the entire client over an e-mail list probably isn't gonna be feezible. Now, that said, to answer your question about new tweets, that is easy enough. So, in anything other than Win10, you'd press ctrl+windows+T, provided that you have the main window hidden. Otherwise, go in the main window's menu bar, to the tweet menu, and under there should be compose new tweet. On Windows 10, if the main window is hidden, then the keystroke is actually going to be alt+windows+T.

Bare in mind, that these shortcuts can be remapped, so there is a possibility though very slim, that the above won't work. This is another reason why I said, reading the documentation might really help. It's not written like most software manuals. This is actually very well written, and very well thought out.
---
Christopher Gilland
JAWS Certified, 2016.
Training Instructor.

@AHeart4God316
Phone: (704) 256-8010 Extension 401.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ketan Kothari" <muktaketan@...>
To: <nvda@groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 3:31 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Using Chicken Nugett with NVDA 2-16.1 with Win 10


Thank you Christoff,

But one more problem persists. How do I compose tweet and all the rest of it?

Ketan

On 3/23/16, Ketan Kothari <muktaketan@...> wrote:
--
Ketan Kothari
Phone: [r] 24223281,
Cell: 9987550614
MSN ID: muktaketan@...
Skype ID: Ketan3333



Hi friends,

6.1 but a unable to use Chicken nugett. Could anyone please help? Thank
you.

With bestwishes,

KetanI am using Win 10 with NVDA 2015




--
Ketan Kothari
Phone: [r] 24223281,
Cell: 9987550614
MSN ID: muktaketan@...
Skype ID: Ketan3333


Re: Correction for Ketan

Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>
 

Thank you for that tip. I had planned to install CN on my Win10 box later today, so this heads up is good to know. I knew that Chris had changed the mappings a bit to keep from conflicting with the new multi-desktop commands, but I couldn't recall what he'd changed them to.
---
Christopher Gilland
JAWS Certified, 2016.
Training Instructor.

@AHeart4God316
Phone: (704) 256-8010 Extension 401.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Christo de Klerk" <christodeklerk@...>
To: <nvda@groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 3:24 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Correction for Ketan


Chicken Nugget works with NVDA under Windows 10, but by default hotkeys have been changed to use the Alt key instead of Ctrl. In other words, to navigate up and down your list of tweets you would no longer use Ctrl+Windows+up/down arrow, but Alt+Windows+Up/Down arrows.

Regards

Christo


On 2016/03/23 8:55 AM, Ketan Kothari wrote:
Actually my problem is using chicken nugett with NVDA on Win 10.

Please do help.

On 3/23/16, Ben J. Bloomgren <bbloomgren@...> wrote:
Ketan,

I’m sorry about the previous message. You were asking about Chicken Nugget
on Windows 10. I don’t use Windows 10 myself, but I know people who do use
it with Chicken Nugget and love it.

Ben




Re: a suggestion for a future release of NVDA

Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>
 

Does it not do that already?  I thought it did.
---
Christopher Gilland
JAWS Certified, 2016.
Training Instructor.
 
clgilland07@...
Phone: (704) 256-8010 Extension 401.

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 1:29 AM
Subject: [nvda] a suggestion for a future release of NVDA

Hi, everyone,

 

Will NVDA be able to automatically read messages in outlook like it does withother email clients? This would be a great feature to have. I think it can be done in screen readers like window-eyes and jaws.

 

Rosemarie


Re: Very concerned, was: qualifying to manage a list (stupid hash tags)

Bhavya shah
 

Hi Gene,
Not Michael Lee, it is Joseph Lee.
Just minorly correcting.
However, on this note, I would just like to express my wholehearted
respect to Joseph for all the work he has done.
Thanks.

On 3/23/16, Laz <laz@...> wrote:
um, Chris, no one has said anything bad about Joseph during this
entire time. I have no idea where you're getting that idea but perhaps
you should read things twice before you start bad mouthing people for
absolutely no reason at all. At least go back and reread Gene's post.

Laz

On 3/23/16, Christopher-Mark Gilland <@AHeart4God316> wrote:
Unlike Gene, and others, I must say I do not concur with them. If
anything,
I actually am with Travis, AKA, Kwork, on this one. Joseph has done a
magnificent job, and the fact that he was man enough to step up and say,
I
don't feel that I can do this anymore adiquitly took lots of courage!
I'm
very proud of him for being so honest and so up front, yet being so
respectful to all of us in how he did things. To his credit, I think we
all
need to give Mr. Lee a bit of a break. I really can tell in my heart
that
he truly, truly does care, and is trying his darndest, contrary to what a
lot of you all may think, or believe.

He's not burnt out. I had a member yesterday who will be 100% left
nameless, who called me at the phone number listed in my signature.

He or she kept asking me over and over again if I felt Joseph was burned
out. For the record, let me just say this. I had planned today to talk
to
this person more if the questions continued, but honestly... look...
he/she
called me on my tech support line, and when I said I'm not here to play
the
middle man in this, go ask Joseph directly, go read his blog post which
explains everything of his reasonings, they didn't apparently do so. I
have
no issue talking to others, including this member both as a friend, and as
a
business related thing, but don't! put me as the middle man, off business
hours or not. That really put me in a very uncomfortable position
yesterday. I felt put on the immediate spot, as I didn't want to say
anything privately or publicly, and be taken as being rude, but I neither
wanted to hold back and not say how I felt about things.

I'm just a member of the list, and a fairly new one at that. Just because
I
put my work phone number in my signature doesn't mean I did so, so that
people could call me about list admin duties. I'm not a mod, nor an
admin,
nor wish to be frankly.

My point is, if Joseph really were "burnt out," quote unquote, then don't
you think he probably wouldn't have been so willing to explain on his
blog?
He posted that link for a reason, and that reason wasn't to have people
just
ignore it, then later wonder. It's the whole shoot and kill now, ask
questions later principle. It shouldn't be that way. Joseph gave you all
a
resource to look at, if you're wondering, so, for goodness sake, use it
if
you're wonderring. I, shouldn't have to be the one to clear this up for
everyone on the list. It's not my responsibility, nor my problem.

Again, sorry to be so brutally direct about this statement, but I had to
say
something before this got more out of hand than it already has, and I beg
the admins' pardon for having to say this publicly with my utmost of
respect
for them.
---
Christopher Gilland
JAWS Certified, 2016.
Training Instructor.

@AHeart4God316
Phone: (704) 256-8010 Extension 401.
----- Original Message -----
From: Kwork
To: nvda@groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 12:32 PM
Subject: [nvda] qualifying to manage a list (stupid hash tags)


Joseph, those are very good points on which to choose a new moderator.
I
think that another point is that they also need to be respected by the
majority of the list members where they will serve, and that's where the
on
list voting will help. The more that vote on this type of topic, the
greater
the chance that cooler heads will prevail, and the transition will be a
smooth one.
Thank you, Joseph, for all the work you've done with NVDA, and this
list,
over the past three years.
Travis
----- Original Message -----
From: Joseph Lee
To: nvda@groups.io
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 11:19 PM
Subject: [nvda] Follow-up: moderator qualifications #ModNotice
#AdminNotice


Hi,



If you or someone you know fulfills all (yes, ALL) of the following
requirements, then please put forth your name or that person's name as
the
candidate for the new moderator (note that this isn't about head
moderator
position, and our current head moderator is Nimer Jaber):



1. Have used NVDA for the past three years or more.

2. Have been a member of this forum and other NVDA forums for the
past three years or more.

3. Ability to communicate well, especially when confronting a
crisis
such as misbehaving members, off-topic messages and such.

4. Ability to communicate kindly (and with humility) even in the
face of adversity (especially during arbitration hearing proceedings).

5. Willingness to seek advice from moderators and members of this
forum when making list-wide decisions.

6. Familiarity with Groups.IO administration controls.

7. Ability to serve as a user-side advocate when talking to NV
Access and other NVDA developers.

8. Ability to deliver important news from NV Access such as NVDA
release announcements in a timely manner.

9. Willingness to step down from position of power when
appropriate
(recalled, on his or her own will and so on).

10. Willingness to shower members of this list and the wider NVDA
community with love and mercy, including to misbehaving members.

11. Having the servant's attitude (to serve, not to be served).

12. Willingness to be accountable and answerable to members of this
list
and the public.

13. Must be at least 21 years of age or older (or considered an adult
in
the country a candidate resides in).



Some of you may say, "look, these requirements are too hard." I believe
that, as a public face of this list (alongside other moderators and
members), you are responsible for the fate and reputation of this list,
and
in extension, NVDA community and NVDA screen reader itself. Thus only
applications from serious candidates will be accepted (applications will
be
accepted until early April, and election will be held by end of April so
the
new moderator can adjust to his or her new role throughout May).



Thank you.

Cheers,

Joseph

P.S. The reason for making these requirements tough is because of the
following blog post:


http://joslee22590.blogspot.com/2016/03/if-i-die-tonight-2-showering-forum.html?spref=tw

Although the post talks about head moderators, it applies to associate
moderators as well. Good luck.



--
Affordably priced Accessible Talking MP3 Players, Accessible phones,
Bluetooth devices, and accessories
http://www.talkingmp3players.com/
Email: laz@...
Phone: 727-498-0121
Skype: lazmesa
Personal Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/laz.mesa
Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/Talkingmp3players?_rdr



--
Warm Regards
Bhavya Shah
Using NVDA (Non Visual Desktop Access) free and open source screen
reader for Microsoft Windows
To download a copy of the free screen reader NVDA, please visit
http://www.nvaccess.org/
Using Google Talkback on Motorolla G second generation Lollipop 5.0.2
Reach me through the following means:
Mobile: +91 7506221750
E-mail id: bhavya.shah125@...
Skype id : bhavya.09


Re: Very concerned, was: qualifying to manage a list (stupid hash tags)

Laz
 

um, Chris, no one has said anything bad about Joseph during this
entire time. I have no idea where you're getting that idea but perhaps
you should read things twice before you start bad mouthing people for
absolutely no reason at all. At least go back and reread Gene's post.

Laz

On 3/23/16, Christopher-Mark Gilland <@AHeart4God316> wrote:
Unlike Gene, and others, I must say I do not concur with them. If anything,
I actually am with Travis, AKA, Kwork, on this one. Joseph has done a
magnificent job, and the fact that he was man enough to step up and say, I
don't feel that I can do this anymore adiquitly took lots of courage! I'm
very proud of him for being so honest and so up front, yet being so
respectful to all of us in how he did things. To his credit, I think we all
need to give Mr. Lee a bit of a break. I really can tell in my heart that
he truly, truly does care, and is trying his darndest, contrary to what a
lot of you all may think, or believe.

He's not burnt out. I had a member yesterday who will be 100% left
nameless, who called me at the phone number listed in my signature.

He or she kept asking me over and over again if I felt Joseph was burned
out. For the record, let me just say this. I had planned today to talk to
this person more if the questions continued, but honestly... look... he/she
called me on my tech support line, and when I said I'm not here to play the
middle man in this, go ask Joseph directly, go read his blog post which
explains everything of his reasonings, they didn't apparently do so. I have
no issue talking to others, including this member both as a friend, and as a
business related thing, but don't! put me as the middle man, off business
hours or not. That really put me in a very uncomfortable position
yesterday. I felt put on the immediate spot, as I didn't want to say
anything privately or publicly, and be taken as being rude, but I neither
wanted to hold back and not say how I felt about things.

I'm just a member of the list, and a fairly new one at that. Just because I
put my work phone number in my signature doesn't mean I did so, so that
people could call me about list admin duties. I'm not a mod, nor an admin,
nor wish to be frankly.

My point is, if Joseph really were "burnt out," quote unquote, then don't
you think he probably wouldn't have been so willing to explain on his blog?
He posted that link for a reason, and that reason wasn't to have people just
ignore it, then later wonder. It's the whole shoot and kill now, ask
questions later principle. It shouldn't be that way. Joseph gave you all a
resource to look at, if you're wondering, so, for goodness sake, use it if
you're wonderring. I, shouldn't have to be the one to clear this up for
everyone on the list. It's not my responsibility, nor my problem.

Again, sorry to be so brutally direct about this statement, but I had to say
something before this got more out of hand than it already has, and I beg
the admins' pardon for having to say this publicly with my utmost of respect
for them.
---
Christopher Gilland
JAWS Certified, 2016.
Training Instructor.

@AHeart4God316
Phone: (704) 256-8010 Extension 401.
----- Original Message -----
From: Kwork
To: nvda@groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 12:32 PM
Subject: [nvda] qualifying to manage a list (stupid hash tags)


Joseph, those are very good points on which to choose a new moderator. I
think that another point is that they also need to be respected by the
majority of the list members where they will serve, and that's where the on
list voting will help. The more that vote on this type of topic, the greater
the chance that cooler heads will prevail, and the transition will be a
smooth one.
Thank you, Joseph, for all the work you've done with NVDA, and this list,
over the past three years.
Travis
----- Original Message -----
From: Joseph Lee
To: nvda@groups.io
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 11:19 PM
Subject: [nvda] Follow-up: moderator qualifications #ModNotice
#AdminNotice


Hi,



If you or someone you know fulfills all (yes, ALL) of the following
requirements, then please put forth your name or that person's name as the
candidate for the new moderator (note that this isn't about head moderator
position, and our current head moderator is Nimer Jaber):



1. Have used NVDA for the past three years or more.

2. Have been a member of this forum and other NVDA forums for the
past three years or more.

3. Ability to communicate well, especially when confronting a crisis
such as misbehaving members, off-topic messages and such.

4. Ability to communicate kindly (and with humility) even in the
face of adversity (especially during arbitration hearing proceedings).

5. Willingness to seek advice from moderators and members of this
forum when making list-wide decisions.

6. Familiarity with Groups.IO administration controls.

7. Ability to serve as a user-side advocate when talking to NV
Access and other NVDA developers.

8. Ability to deliver important news from NV Access such as NVDA
release announcements in a timely manner.

9. Willingness to step down from position of power when appropriate
(recalled, on his or her own will and so on).

10. Willingness to shower members of this list and the wider NVDA
community with love and mercy, including to misbehaving members.

11. Having the servant's attitude (to serve, not to be served).

12. Willingness to be accountable and answerable to members of this list
and the public.

13. Must be at least 21 years of age or older (or considered an adult in
the country a candidate resides in).



Some of you may say, "look, these requirements are too hard." I believe
that, as a public face of this list (alongside other moderators and
members), you are responsible for the fate and reputation of this list, and
in extension, NVDA community and NVDA screen reader itself. Thus only
applications from serious candidates will be accepted (applications will be
accepted until early April, and election will be held by end of April so the
new moderator can adjust to his or her new role throughout May).



Thank you.

Cheers,

Joseph

P.S. The reason for making these requirements tough is because of the
following blog post:


http://joslee22590.blogspot.com/2016/03/if-i-die-tonight-2-showering-forum.html?spref=tw

Although the post talks about head moderators, it applies to associate
moderators as well. Good luck.


--
Affordably priced Accessible Talking MP3 Players, Accessible phones,
Bluetooth devices, and accessories
http://www.talkingmp3players.com/
Email: laz@...
Phone: 727-498-0121
Skype: lazmesa
Personal Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/laz.mesa
Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/Talkingmp3players?_rdr


Re: Very concerned, was: qualifying to manage a list (stupid hash tags)

Gene
 

I did not and I went out of my way to say, that I was not criticizing Michael lee for stepping down.  I criticized the reasons he gave and pointed out that that reason implies that younger members might be considered for the position while older people might not be because they are not and cannot be part of the generational shift.  If most people resigned from things because they were in their late twenties or early thirties, we would lose most of the experience and knowledge that comes with age.  If most of us resigned because we were worried about who would carry on if some mishap happened to us, then everyone would have to resign from everything because a mishap can happen to anyone.  That's why there are procedures that institutions have for filling a vacancy left by death or disability. 
 
I also said that I appreciate the work Michael Lee did in running the list. 
 
My main criticism was to the proposal to elect the next moderator. 
 
If Michael Lee wants to resign, that's his decision.  I did not criticize that decision. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 7:40 AM
Subject: Re: Very concerned, was: [nvda] qualifying to manage a list (stupid hash tags)

Unlike Gene, and others, I must say I do not concur with them.  If anything, I actually am with Travis, AKA, Kwork, on this one.  Joseph has done a magnificent job, and the fact that he was man enough to step up and say, I don't feel that I can do this anymore adiquitly took lots of courage!  I'm very proud of him for being so honest and so up front, yet being so respectful to all of us in how he did things.  To his credit, I think we all need to give Mr. Lee a bit of a break.  I really can tell in my heart that he truly, truly does care, and is trying his darndest, contrary to what a lot of you all may think, or believe.
 
He's not burnt out.  I had a member yesterday who will be 100% left nameless, who called me at the phone number listed in my signature.
 
He or she kept asking me over and over again if I felt Joseph was burned out.  For the record, let me just say this.  I had planned today to talk to this person more if the questions continued, but honestly... look... he/she called me on my tech support line, and when I said I'm not here to play the middle man in this, go ask Joseph directly, go read his blog post which explains everything of his reasonings, they didn't apparently do so.  I have no issue talking to others, including this member both as a friend, and as a business related thing, but don't! put me as the middle man, off business hours or not.  That really put me in a very uncomfortable position yesterday. I felt put on the immediate spot, as I didn't want to say anything privately or publicly, and be taken as being rude, but I neither wanted to  hold back and not say how I felt about things.
 
I'm just a member of the list, and a fairly new one at that.  Just because I put my work phone number in my signature doesn't mean I did so, so that people could call me about list admin duties.  I'm not a mod, nor an admin, nor wish to be frankly.
 
My point is, if Joseph really were "burnt out," quote unquote, then don't you think he probably wouldn't have been so willing to explain on his blog?  He posted that link for a reason, and that reason wasn't to have people just ignore it, then later wonder.  It's the whole shoot and kill now, ask questions later principle.  It shouldn't be that way.  Joseph gave you all a resource to look at, if you're wondering, so, for goodness sake, use it if you're wonderring.  I, shouldn't have to be the one to clear this up for everyone on the list.  It's not my responsibility, nor my problem.
 
Again, sorry to be so brutally direct about this statement, but I had to say something before this got more out of hand than it already has, and I beg the admins' pardon for having to say this publicly with my utmost of respect for them.
---
Christopher Gilland
JAWS Certified, 2016.
Training Instructor.
 
clgilland07@...
Phone: (704) 256-8010 Extension 401.
----- Original Message -----
From: Kwork
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 12:32 PM
Subject: [nvda] qualifying to manage a list (stupid hash tags)

Joseph, those are very good points on which to choose a new moderator. I think that another point is that they also need to be respected by the majority of the list members where they will serve, and that's where the on list voting will help. The more that vote on this type of topic, the greater the chance that cooler heads will prevail, and the transition will be a smooth one.
Thank you, Joseph, for all the work you've done with NVDA, and this list, over the past three years.
Travis
----- Original Message -----
From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 11:19 PM
Subject: [nvda] Follow-up: moderator qualifications #ModNotice #AdminNotice

Hi,

 

If you or someone you know fulfills all (yes, ALL) of the following requirements, then please put forth your name or that person’s name as the candidate for the new moderator (note that this isn’t about head moderator position, and our current head moderator is Nimer Jaber):

 

1.       Have used NVDA for the past three years or more.

2.       Have been a member of this forum and other NVDA forums for the past three years or more.

3.       Ability to communicate well, especially when confronting a crisis such as misbehaving members, off-topic messages and such.

4.       Ability to communicate kindly (and with humility) even in the face of adversity (especially during arbitration hearing proceedings).

5.       Willingness to seek advice from moderators and members of this forum when making list-wide decisions.

6.       Familiarity with Groups.IO administration controls.

7.       Ability to serve as a user-side advocate when talking to NV Access and other NVDA developers.

8.       Ability to deliver important news from NV Access such as NVDA release announcements in a timely manner.

9.       Willingness to step down from position of power when appropriate (recalled, on his or her own will and so on).

10.   Willingness to shower members of this list and the wider NVDA community with love and mercy, including to misbehaving members.

11.   Having the servant’s attitude (to serve, not to be served).

12.   Willingness to be accountable and answerable to members of this list and the public.

13.   Must be at least 21 years of age or older (or considered an adult in the country a candidate resides in).

 

Some of you may say, “look, these requirements are too hard.” I believe that, as a public face of this list (alongside other moderators and members), you are responsible for the fate and reputation of this list, and in extension, NVDA community and NVDA screen reader itself. Thus only applications from serious candidates will be accepted (applications will be accepted until early April, and election will be held by end of April so the new moderator can adjust to his or her new role throughout May).

 

Thank you.

Cheers,

Joseph

P.S. The reason for making these requirements tough is because of the following blog post:

http://joslee22590.blogspot.com/2016/03/if-i-die-tonight-2-showering-forum.html?spref=tw

Although the post talks about head moderators, it applies to associate moderators as well. Good luck.


Re: Electing a new moderator

 

I, too, will join the chorus and say that Joseph did a wonderful job
in running the list. Since he has done this for some time, he is in
the best position to suggest a successor. I am sure that there are
other active participants who have an idea who would be a good List
moderator. But, I, for one, have no idea who would have the skills and
the willingness to replace Joseph. If there are more than one
candidates, I will be willing to vote if the candidates introduce
themselves and say a few words about their skills.
Nevzat Adil

On 3/23/16, john s <jschwery@...> wrote:
I agree with others. Moderators can't be elected and need to be
chosen. I will not vote because I don't know many of the
participants on this list.



earlier, Joseph Lee, wrote:
Hi Gwen,
Although for some, selection by a moderator is great, I believe it
deprives
a chance for members to exercise a fundamental right: petition. Perhaps
moderators may make a wrong choice (to them, it was a right decision), but
I
think we cannot forget the following principles:
* The real stars of a show are audiences. In other words, forum members
should participate in making a forum great, and one way is through voicing
opinions. Many of us would say the presenters (or moderators) should be
the
stars, but I firmly believe that the purpose of forming a forum is for the
benefit of the members within who have come together for a purpose.
* Moderators should show vulnerability. There is a reason why some people
are selected to lead, moderate and represent a forum: they have specific
calling (or a sense of duty), and one way to let moderators show they are
human is through vulnerability (having a mindset to walk around the
conference hall and sit with attendees instead of occupying the speaker's
podium all day).
* People and content will decide the fate and reputation of a forum. Many
would say content is the crown jewel of a forum; I think it is both
content
(topics) and people (moderators, members, outsiders and what not) who are
the gemstones of a forum. As an outgoing moderator (outgoing as in soon to
retire), I believe that one way to make this a reality is through voting:
to
let you participate in a decision that'll decide the overall direction of
a
forum for years to come, to give you a sense of pride for the fact that
you
are an invaluable part of this forum, to let you express your opinion
freely
and to remind the new moderator to be accountable and answerable to all of
you. In other words, by letting you vote, I'd like to give you the
greatest
gift (I think) any moderator could give: acknowledging list members as
equal
partners in decision-making, inviting you along the ride as we make
decisions, and to thank you for your support by giving you a chance to
select the new moderator.
* This isn't the first time we held votes to decide important list
matters.
What made our transition to Groups.IO possible was overwhelming "yes"
votes
from members.
Hope this helps (sorry if I came across as rude).
Cheers,
Joseph




-----Original Message-----
From: Gwensinfo [mailto:gwensinfo@...]
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 11:21 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator

Joseph, it sounds like you have an awful lot on your plate. I can
understand
that, as moderator, you might want to step down so that you could provide
more support and help to some of the other focus projects within NVDA. I
wish you well. I really think an election though is not the right way to
go.

Gwen and the great Orb
sent from my iPhone 5s
"a dog has many friends because he wags his tail and not his tongue "
Anonymous"

On Mar 22, 2016, at 2:12 PM, Joseph Lee <@joslee>
wrote:

Hi Antony,
If I understand Chris, he meant someone who is familiar with NVDA's
history, development and key ideas.
To answer the second question: in 2013, at the time of taking office, I
was nearing completion of my NVDA tutorials, an active participant in NVDA
translations work and was learning NVDA source code and planning Control
Usage Assistant add-on (which is now maintained by a member of this list).
At this time, I am:
* Soon to be former associate moderator of this list.
* One of the community add-on reviewers and serve as the quarterly
add-on
release coordinator.
* Produced numerous tutorials, including Welcome to NVDA series
(updated
in 2015).
* Current maintainer of or have maintained the following NVDA add-ons:
Control Usage Assistant (original add-on creator and former maintainer),
Enhanced Touch Gestures (add-on creator and maintainer), GoldWave (add-on
creator and maintainer), Resource Monitor (current maintainer),
StationPlaylist Studio (current maintainer), Windows 10 App Essentials
(add-on creator and maintainer).
* The original author of NVDA add-on development guide.
* NVDA translator (Korean).
* Code contributor to NVDA screen reader project (I am the one who
wrote
case sensitive find routine, let NVDA announce toast notifications in
Windows 10, added ability to let NVDA not play startup and shutdown
sounds,
initiated Outlook Calendar support, maintain a number of third-party NVDA
snapshots, and am researching features such as ability to disable
individual
add-ons and letting NVDA announce notifications in Microsoft Edge).
* Involved in projects related to NVDA, including serving as one of the
points of contact regarding NVDA's support for Unified English Braille
(UEB)
via LibLouis.
* Organized or led initiatives on various gatherings (both local and
international scale), including all NVDACon until now.
* Chair of the NVDA Tenth Anniversary Planning Committee, which, among
other things, is tasked with organizing NVDACon International 2016.
* Served as one of the many points of contact between users, developers
and supporters of NVDA.
Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Joseph




-----Original Message-----
From: Antony Stone [mailto:Antony.Stone@...]
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 10:46 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator

I have two questions about this:

1. Who do you mean by "the NVDA establishment"? Do you mean the
employees
of NV Access Limited, or some other (hopefully larger) group?

2. Was Joseph a part of "the NVDA establishment" when he became list
moderator?

Antony.

On Tuesday 22 Mar 2016 at 15:48, Chris Mullins wrote:

I concur with Gene and Laz. Democratic election is not the way to go.
Someone from within the NVDA establishment is required to take on the
role.

Cheers
Chris
--
"In fact I wanted to be John Cleese and it took me some time to realise
that the job was already taken."

- Douglas Adams

Please reply to the
list;
please *don't*
CC
me.










John




--
We have probed the Earth, excavated it, burned it, ripped things from
it, buried things in it... That does not fit my definition of a good
tenant. If we were here on a month-to-month basis, we would have been
evicted long ago.
-Rose Bird


Re: Using Chicken Nugett with NVDA 2-16.1 with Win 10

Christo de Klerk
 

The same as always, just use Alt in the hotkey combinations instead of Ctrl. For example, to compose a tweet, use Alt+Win+t; to compose a direct message, use Alt+Win+m; to reply, use Alt+Win+r and so on. Get the interface window up with Alt+Win+w and then you can edit your hotkeys or look at their current settings.

Regards

Christo

On 2016/03/23 9:31 AM, Ketan Kothari wrote:
Thank you Christoff,

But one more problem persists. How do I compose tweet and all the rest of it?

Ketan

On 3/23/16, Ketan Kothari <muktaketan@...> wrote:
--
Ketan Kothari
Phone: [r] 24223281,
Cell: 9987550614
MSN ID: muktaketan@...
Skype ID: Ketan3333



Hi friends,

6.1 but a unable to use Chicken nugett. Could anyone please help? Thank
you.

With bestwishes,

KetanI am using Win 10 with NVDA 2015




Re: Very concerned, was: qualifying to manage a list (stupid hash tags)

Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>
 

Unlike Gene, and others, I must say I do not concur with them.  If anything, I actually am with Travis, AKA, Kwork, on this one.  Joseph has done a magnificent job, and the fact that he was man enough to step up and say, I don't feel that I can do this anymore adiquitly took lots of courage!  I'm very proud of him for being so honest and so up front, yet being so respectful to all of us in how he did things.  To his credit, I think we all need to give Mr. Lee a bit of a break.  I really can tell in my heart that he truly, truly does care, and is trying his darndest, contrary to what a lot of you all may think, or believe.
 
He's not burnt out.  I had a member yesterday who will be 100% left nameless, who called me at the phone number listed in my signature.
 
He or she kept asking me over and over again if I felt Joseph was burned out.  For the record, let me just say this.  I had planned today to talk to this person more if the questions continued, but honestly... look... he/she called me on my tech support line, and when I said I'm not here to play the middle man in this, go ask Joseph directly, go read his blog post which explains everything of his reasonings, they didn't apparently do so.  I have no issue talking to others, including this member both as a friend, and as a business related thing, but don't! put me as the middle man, off business hours or not.  That really put me in a very uncomfortable position yesterday. I felt put on the immediate spot, as I didn't want to say anything privately or publicly, and be taken as being rude, but I neither wanted to  hold back and not say how I felt about things.
 
I'm just a member of the list, and a fairly new one at that.  Just because I put my work phone number in my signature doesn't mean I did so, so that people could call me about list admin duties.  I'm not a mod, nor an admin, nor wish to be frankly.
 
My point is, if Joseph really were "burnt out," quote unquote, then don't you think he probably wouldn't have been so willing to explain on his blog?  He posted that link for a reason, and that reason wasn't to have people just ignore it, then later wonder.  It's the whole shoot and kill now, ask questions later principle.  It shouldn't be that way.  Joseph gave you all a resource to look at, if you're wondering, so, for goodness sake, use it if you're wonderring.  I, shouldn't have to be the one to clear this up for everyone on the list.  It's not my responsibility, nor my problem.
 
Again, sorry to be so brutally direct about this statement, but I had to say something before this got more out of hand than it already has, and I beg the admins' pardon for having to say this publicly with my utmost of respect for them.
---
Christopher Gilland
JAWS Certified, 2016.
Training Instructor.
 
clgilland07@...
Phone: (704) 256-8010 Extension 401.

----- Original Message -----
From: Kwork
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 12:32 PM
Subject: [nvda] qualifying to manage a list (stupid hash tags)

Joseph, those are very good points on which to choose a new moderator. I think that another point is that they also need to be respected by the majority of the list members where they will serve, and that's where the on list voting will help. The more that vote on this type of topic, the greater the chance that cooler heads will prevail, and the transition will be a smooth one.
Thank you, Joseph, for all the work you've done with NVDA, and this list, over the past three years.
Travis
----- Original Message -----
From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 11:19 PM
Subject: [nvda] Follow-up: moderator qualifications #ModNotice #AdminNotice

Hi,

 

If you or someone you know fulfills all (yes, ALL) of the following requirements, then please put forth your name or that person’s name as the candidate for the new moderator (note that this isn’t about head moderator position, and our current head moderator is Nimer Jaber):

 

1.       Have used NVDA for the past three years or more.

2.       Have been a member of this forum and other NVDA forums for the past three years or more.

3.       Ability to communicate well, especially when confronting a crisis such as misbehaving members, off-topic messages and such.

4.       Ability to communicate kindly (and with humility) even in the face of adversity (especially during arbitration hearing proceedings).

5.       Willingness to seek advice from moderators and members of this forum when making list-wide decisions.

6.       Familiarity with Groups.IO administration controls.

7.       Ability to serve as a user-side advocate when talking to NV Access and other NVDA developers.

8.       Ability to deliver important news from NV Access such as NVDA release announcements in a timely manner.

9.       Willingness to step down from position of power when appropriate (recalled, on his or her own will and so on).

10.   Willingness to shower members of this list and the wider NVDA community with love and mercy, including to misbehaving members.

11.   Having the servant’s attitude (to serve, not to be served).

12.   Willingness to be accountable and answerable to members of this list and the public.

13.   Must be at least 21 years of age or older (or considered an adult in the country a candidate resides in).

 

Some of you may say, “look, these requirements are too hard.” I believe that, as a public face of this list (alongside other moderators and members), you are responsible for the fate and reputation of this list, and in extension, NVDA community and NVDA screen reader itself. Thus only applications from serious candidates will be accepted (applications will be accepted until early April, and election will be held by end of April so the new moderator can adjust to his or her new role throughout May).

 

Thank you.

Cheers,

Joseph

P.S. The reason for making these requirements tough is because of the following blog post:

http://joslee22590.blogspot.com/2016/03/if-i-die-tonight-2-showering-forum.html?spref=tw

Although the post talks about head moderators, it applies to associate moderators as well. Good luck.


Re: Electing a new moderator

john s
 

I agree with others. Moderators can't be elected and need to be chosen. I will not vote because I don't know many of the participants on this list.



earlier, Joseph Lee, wrote:
Hi Gwen,
Although for some, selection by a moderator is great, I believe it deprives
a chance for members to exercise a fundamental right: petition. Perhaps
moderators may make a wrong choice (to them, it was a right decision), but I
think we cannot forget the following principles:
* The real stars of a show are audiences. In other words, forum members
should participate in making a forum great, and one way is through voicing
opinions. Many of us would say the presenters (or moderators) should be the
stars, but I firmly believe that the purpose of forming a forum is for the
benefit of the members within who have come together for a purpose.
* Moderators should show vulnerability. There is a reason why some people
are selected to lead, moderate and represent a forum: they have specific
calling (or a sense of duty), and one way to let moderators show they are
human is through vulnerability (having a mindset to walk around the
conference hall and sit with attendees instead of occupying the speaker's
podium all day).
* People and content will decide the fate and reputation of a forum. Many
would say content is the crown jewel of a forum; I think it is both content
(topics) and people (moderators, members, outsiders and what not) who are
the gemstones of a forum. As an outgoing moderator (outgoing as in soon to
retire), I believe that one way to make this a reality is through voting: to
let you participate in a decision that'll decide the overall direction of a
forum for years to come, to give you a sense of pride for the fact that you
are an invaluable part of this forum, to let you express your opinion freely
and to remind the new moderator to be accountable and answerable to all of
you. In other words, by letting you vote, I'd like to give you the greatest
gift (I think) any moderator could give: acknowledging list members as equal
partners in decision-making, inviting you along the ride as we make
decisions, and to thank you for your support by giving you a chance to
select the new moderator.
* This isn't the first time we held votes to decide important list matters.
What made our transition to Groups.IO possible was overwhelming "yes" votes
from members.
Hope this helps (sorry if I came across as rude).
Cheers,
Joseph




-----Original Message-----
From: Gwensinfo [mailto:gwensinfo@...]
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 11:21 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator

Joseph, it sounds like you have an awful lot on your plate. I can understand
that, as moderator, you might want to step down so that you could provide
more support and help to some of the other focus projects within NVDA. I
wish you well. I really think an election though is not the right way to go.

Gwen and the great Orb
sent from my iPhone 5s
"a dog has many friends because he wags his tail and not his tongue "
Anonymous"

On Mar 22, 2016, at 2:12 PM, Joseph Lee <@joslee> wrote:

Hi Antony,
If I understand Chris, he meant someone who is familiar with NVDA's
history, development and key ideas.
To answer the second question: in 2013, at the time of taking office, I
was nearing completion of my NVDA tutorials, an active participant in NVDA
translations work and was learning NVDA source code and planning Control
Usage Assistant add-on (which is now maintained by a member of this list).
At this time, I am:
* Soon to be former associate moderator of this list.
* One of the community add-on reviewers and serve as the quarterly add-on
release coordinator.
* Produced numerous tutorials, including Welcome to NVDA series (updated
in 2015).
* Current maintainer of or have maintained the following NVDA add-ons:
Control Usage Assistant (original add-on creator and former maintainer),
Enhanced Touch Gestures (add-on creator and maintainer), GoldWave (add-on
creator and maintainer), Resource Monitor (current maintainer),
StationPlaylist Studio (current maintainer), Windows 10 App Essentials
(add-on creator and maintainer).
* The original author of NVDA add-on development guide.
* NVDA translator (Korean).
* Code contributor to NVDA screen reader project (I am the one who wrote
case sensitive find routine, let NVDA announce toast notifications in
Windows 10, added ability to let NVDA not play startup and shutdown sounds,
initiated Outlook Calendar support, maintain a number of third-party NVDA
snapshots, and am researching features such as ability to disable individual
add-ons and letting NVDA announce notifications in Microsoft Edge).
* Involved in projects related to NVDA, including serving as one of the
points of contact regarding NVDA's support for Unified English Braille (UEB)
via LibLouis.
* Organized or led initiatives on various gatherings (both local and
international scale), including all NVDACon until now.
* Chair of the NVDA Tenth Anniversary Planning Committee, which, among
other things, is tasked with organizing NVDACon International 2016.
* Served as one of the many points of contact between users, developers
and supporters of NVDA.
Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Joseph




-----Original Message-----
From: Antony Stone [mailto:Antony.Stone@...]
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 10:46 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator

I have two questions about this:

1. Who do you mean by "the NVDA establishment"? Do you mean the employees
of NV Access Limited, or some other (hopefully larger) group?

2. Was Joseph a part of "the NVDA establishment" when he became list
moderator?

Antony.

On Tuesday 22 Mar 2016 at 15:48, Chris Mullins wrote:

I concur with Gene and Laz. Democratic election is not the way to go.
Someone from within the NVDA establishment is required to take on the
role.

Cheers
Chris
--
"In fact I wanted to be John Cleese and it took me some time to realise
that the job was already taken."

- Douglas Adams

Please reply to the
list;
please *don't* CC
me.










John


Re: The danger at the moment of this moderation thread.

 

sub group work in progress

On 3/23/16, Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...> wrote:
Is that its all engulfing. Personally, I think one needs to have this on a
special group for admin of nvda lists generally.
I fear that those coming in in the last few days who want help are drowned

out by repeated messages about who how what where and how to vote etc etc.


Cannot an announcement just be put here that cannot be followed up?
or is that what happened when I got cryptic bounces from this list
yesterday. i see mention of sub groups. One supposes this is in effect a new

group but automatically, those subscribed here, also get subscribed there.

this will be good as I can then sort them on the group name be it a new
name or something related


So, can we perhaps do this now. I've kind of lost the will to live looking
through the various threads on this, of which I know I've just created
another, sorry.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.




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search for me on facebook, google+, orkut..
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follow me on twitter.
austinmpinto
contact me on skype.
austin.pinto3


The danger at the moment of this moderation thread.

Brian's Mail list account BY <bglists@...>
 

Is that its all engulfing. Personally, I think one needs to have this on a special group for admin of nvda lists generally.
I fear that those coming in in the last few days who want help are drowned out by repeated messages about who how what where and how to vote etc etc.


Cannot an announcement just be put here that cannot be followed up?
or is that what happened when I got cryptic bounces from this list yesterday. i see mention of sub groups. One supposes this is in effect a new group but automatically, those subscribed here, also get subscribed there. this will be good as I can then sort them on the group name be it a new name or something related


So, can we perhaps do this now. I've kind of lost the will to live looking through the various threads on this, of which I know I've just created another, sorry.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.


Re: Electing a new moderator

 

Thats a good idea, I have noted that the addons release coodenator is getting replaced to.
I think all positions needs to have interest, if someone wants to take it or if a few want to then if its more than 1 we vote.

On 23/03/2016 8:13 p.m., Fanus wrote:
Hello list
Just my few sents: is it not better to ask who is willing to take Joseph’s place instead of doing an election. With nominations a person nominated can feel important although he or she does not really want to do the job while a person who comes forward and offers to act as moderator is really interested and able.
Regards
Fanus


From: Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 1:23 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator

I just hope whoever takes Joseph's place will be as good as he was.




On 3/22/2016 4:12 PM, Gene wrote:

Michael Lee was a perfect stranger when he began. If a perfect stranger does a bad job of moderating, there will be plenty of time to leave the list. it is common for moderators to leave lists and be replaced by someone who is a perfect stranger to a lot of most list members.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 6:07 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator

Hi, Lino,

I agree that Joseph has done a damn good job of running this list. I
might just leave the group too if the list has to be run by a perfect
stranger. It's a shame that Joseph has to step down.

Rosemarie



On 3/22/2016 2:36 PM, Lino Morales wrote:
> I also agree with Gene here. Joseph has done a damn fine job running
> the list. Heck we hear from him mor than Nimer probably cause he works
> etc. etc. If this list is going to be run like this in future I don't
> want any part of it. Just my 2cents.
>
> On 3/22/2016 9:29 AM, Laz wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> I must say that I wholeheartedly agree with Gene. I will also add that
>> voting on names of strangers to be elected to an important position
>> such as a list moderator could end up having an unqualified candidate
>> who may have other intentions than those mentioned being voted into
>> the position and given power to do as they secretly intend. Just look
>> at the track history of politics. List ownership and moderation is not
>> a democratic process by any means. We have no idea as to the true
>> character of most list members. I have already seen one proposal for a
>> candidate which I'm not certain would make a good moderator as I
>> believe it's an alias of someone else on the list and that's all I'm
>> going to say about that. I sincerely hope that Nimer will keep the
>> power of veto and put a stop to any unqualified person being voted
>> into the role of moderator.
>>
>> Laz
>>
>> On 3/22/16, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
>>> I spent a lot of time and thought replying to this message. Now I
>>> see that
>>> it was rejected because of restricted hash tags. I shall send it
>>> again with
>>> another subject line and I shall make one additional commenbt at the
>>> outset
>>>
>>> Since I initially wrote my message, I have seen the start of what will
>>> probably be an avalanche of messages regarding nominations and
>>> discussions
>>> of nominees. I did not join this list to receive hundreds or
>>> thousands of
>>> administration messages nor did most who joined. We joined to
>>> discuss NVDA,
>>> not how to run the list nor who should be in charge.
>>>
>>> I appreciate the work you have done in moderating the list and I
>>> appreciate
>>> your intentions. But this is just not the way to run a list. If you
>>> are
>>> determined to run the list as a democracy, please set up a chat
>>> subgroup for
>>> those who want to discuss nominations and make submissions or ask
>>> that such
>>> submissions be sent to you off list, either or both. The main NVDA
>>> list
>>> should be to discuss NVDA and not democratic administrative nor
>>> election
>>> matters except to announce the actual election and present
>>> information about
>>> the nominees.
>>>
>>> Here is what I wrote previously.
>>>
>>> I almost never comment on list administration on the list but this
>>> is an
>>> exception. If you want to step down, that's your decision and I am not
>>> writing to question or challenge the decision. But generational
>>> change,
>>> when the generation in question is probably in its late twenties or
>>> early
>>> thirties at most makes no sense as a reason. If you are worried about
>>> succession, then it would be far better to have some mechanism where
>>> you
>>> appoint someone to take over with the prior approval of the list owner.
>>>
>>> I have never been on, nor ever heard, of a list run like a
>>> democracy. There
>>> are good reasons for this. This is not a democracy, where people have
>>> records and attributes that are known to most members regarding list
>>> administration. There a very few active members and most discussion is
>>> about NVDA in some way. If members were asked to vote on who has
>>> the most
>>> knowledge of NVDA, for example, there would be some grounds for
>>> members to
>>> vote. But this is a list to discuss NVDA. It is not a place where
>>> people
>>> display records of leadership and personality that members are aware
>>> of and
>>> can use to choose a leader. (I don't even know the names of more than
>>> perhaps ten or twenty members on the list and I know them not
>>> because of any
>>> demonstrated personality traits that relate to running the list. I
>>> know
>>> them because they discuss NVDA. There is no corellation between
>>> that and
>>> being able to determine who has the qualities best suited to run a
>>> list.
>>> You may know people well enough yourself to make such a
>>> determination and
>>> frankly, in this context, you and the list owner should do so. I
>>> shall,
>>> respectfully, not vote in the upcoming election. I am not
>>> knowledgeable and
>>> cannot cast an informed meaningful vote and most list members can't
>>> cast an
>>> informed meaningful vote either.
>>>
>>> If the list were really a democratic institution, we would have people
>>> holding office with campaigns and some sort of mechanisms for people
>>> to get
>>> to know and evaluate those who serve and run for office. There would be
>>> periodic elections. If we make a mistake and appoint someone who
>>> does not
>>> do a good job in error, this being a list, not a democratic
>>> institution, we
>>> have no means of recall or no periodic elections to replace the
>>> person. We
>>> are electing someone for an indefinite term with most members having no
>>> meaningful information on which to make a decision.
>>>
>>> On every list I've been on, the owner runs the list and makes decisions
>>> relevant to administration and the owner and moderators decide how
>>> to divide
>>> up tasks such as moderation. As I said, there are good reasons that
>>> lists
>>> are not run as democracies.
>>>
>>> And making some sort of divide in generations when the generation in
>>> their
>>> late twenties or early thirties has most of its collective life to
>>> live is a
>>> really bad idea. The United States Constitution has minimum ages for
>>> assuming different offices. That's because it was believed that
>>> knowledge,
>>> wisdom, and maturity increase with age. What about all those who
>>> may be in
>>> their forties, fifties, sixties, and beyond who may be better
>>> qualified by
>>> the knowledge and experience they have gotten? Are you taking the
>>> position
>>> that anyone under the age of thirty, for example will be considered
>>> to run
>>> the list but those older won't?
>>>
>>> The more I think about the reason you gave for stepping down and the
>>> means
>>> you propose to fill the vacancy, the more I realize what a bad
>>> rationale and
>>> procedure it is. And a further irony is that you propose a democratic
>>> election to fill the position but you haven't held an election on
>>> whether
>>> the list should be run as a democracy or in the traditional or other
>>> way.
>>> Isn't that the first thing that should be decided by democratic
>>> means if the
>>> list is a democratic institution? Democracy is not suited to all
>>> institutions and this list is one of them.
>>>
>>> As I said at the outset, if you want to step down, I have no quarrel
>>> with
>>> that decision. That is your decision and I am not writing to
>>> question the
>>> decision. But I strongly disagree with the reason given and the
>>> procedure
>>> to fill the vacancy.
>>>
>>> I considered writing you off list but, if the list is being run as a
>>> democracy, it follows that other list members should know my
>>> thoughts on
>>> this matter.
>>>
>>> Gene
>>> ------ Original Message -----
>>> From: Joseph Lee
>>> Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 10:26 PM
>>> To: nvda@groups.io
>>> Subject: [nvda] Important moderator's letter: I'd like to request next
>>> generation of NVDA enthusiasts to come to the moderator's seat
>>> #ModNotice
>>> #AdminNotice
>>>
>>>
>>> Dear members of the NVDA International Users list and the wider NVDA
>>> community:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> For some, change of generation is a scary thing, while others would
>>> say it
>>> is a wonderful way to reflect upon our past and think about the
>>> future. As a
>>> moderator of this list and the chair of the NVDA Tenth Anniversary
>>> Planning
>>> Committee, I had a chance to think about this today. Specifically, I
>>> was
>>> struck by the following thought: If I die tonight, who'll carry on
>>> my legacy
>>> and serve as a moderator who'll shower you with more love than I did?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You see, for some time, I thought it is better to let a generational
>>> change
>>> happen. We now have members of the next generation who are very
>>> enthusiastic
>>> about NVDA and its community, people who are showing leadership
>>> potential
>>> and folks who are willing to love and serve you and the wider
>>> community. And
>>> I thought that this is a good time to carry this out, seeing that
>>> some of
>>> these new enthusiasts are the ones who are actively involved in
>>> promoting
>>> NVDA and events related to its tenth anniversary.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thus, effective May 31, 2016, I'll step down from the moderator
>>> position I
>>> held for the past three years. I'd like to request that members of
>>> this list
>>> hold a list-wide election to elect the new moderator. I'll remain a
>>> member
>>> of this list, obeying the new moderator and serving the NVDA community.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thank you everyone for your support for the past few years.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Joseph
>>>
>>> P.S. My blog post on this decision can be found at:
>>>
>>> http://joslee22590.blogspot.com/2016/03/if-i-die-tonight-1-legacy-letting-go-of.html
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
>







Re: Using Chicken Nugett with NVDA 2-16.1 with Win 10

Ketan Kothari
 

Thank you Christoff,

But one more problem persists. How do I compose tweet and all the rest of it?

Ketan

On 3/23/16, Ketan Kothari <muktaketan@...> wrote:
--
Ketan Kothari
Phone: [r] 24223281,
Cell: 9987550614
MSN ID: muktaketan@...
Skype ID: Ketan3333



Hi friends,

6.1 but a unable to use Chicken nugett. Could anyone please help? Thank
you.

With bestwishes,

KetanI am using Win 10 with NVDA 2015



--
Ketan Kothari
Phone: [r] 24223281,
Cell: 9987550614
MSN ID: muktaketan@...
Skype ID: Ketan3333