Date   

Re: a suggestion for a future release of NVDA

Brian's Mail list account BY <bglists@...>
 

Tis puzzled me also. Maybe he means automatic say all. and this very much depends on how Outlook as an off linne reader is set up. One has to be careful as Outlook is now the new name for hotmail formerly live formally msn etc etc, and he may mean the web based system which seems to have been designed by a colour blind non keyboard using person.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher-Mark Gilland" <clgilland07@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 4:37 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] a suggestion for a future release of NVDA


Does it not do that already? I thought it did.
---
Christopher Gilland
JAWS Certified, 2016.
Training Instructor.

clgilland07@gmail.com
Phone: (704) 256-8010 Extension 401.
----- Original Message -----
From: Rosemarie Chavarria
To: nvda@groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 1:29 AM
Subject: [nvda] a suggestion for a future release of NVDA


Hi, everyone,



Will NVDA be able to automatically read messages in outlook like it does withother email clients? This would be a great feature to have. I think it can be done in screen readers like window-eyes and jaws.



Rosemarie


Re: Very concerned, was: qualifying to manage a list (stupid hash tags)

Brian's Mail list account BY <bglists@...>
 

I did not read it like that at all. The point is it would be great in my organisation if I could get volunteers who were young to help out, but you can't.

Besides Joseph is hardly old, I took it to mean that people should not stay in place for ever and others should have a chance. If I had the time and the actual ability, I'd do it. I used to do moderation back in the 1980s before the Internet, when it was all on a viewdata platform, but I was younger,the world was simpler, I could see reasonably and nobody knew the right way back then.

Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@ripco.com>
To: <nvda@groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 2:17 PM
Subject: Re: Very concerned, was: [nvda] qualifying to manage a list (stupid hash tags)


I did not and I went out of my way to say, that I was not criticizing Michael lee for stepping down. I criticized the reasons he gave and pointed out that that reason implies that younger members might be considered for the position while older people might not be because they are not and cannot be part of the generational shift. If most people resigned from things because they were in their late twenties or early thirties, we would lose most of the experience and knowledge that comes with age. If most of us resigned because we were worried about who would carry on if some mishap happened to us, then everyone would have to resign from everything because a mishap can happen to anyone. That's why there are procedures that institutions have for filling a vacancy left by death or disability.

I also said that I appreciate the work Michael Lee did in running the list.

My main criticism was to the proposal to elect the next moderator.

If Michael Lee wants to resign, that's his decision. I did not criticize that decision.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Christopher-Mark Gilland
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 7:40 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: Very concerned, was: [nvda] qualifying to manage a list (stupid hash tags)


Unlike Gene, and others, I must say I do not concur with them. If anything, I actually am with Travis, AKA, Kwork, on this one. Joseph has done a magnificent job, and the fact that he was man enough to step up and say, I don't feel that I can do this anymore adiquitly took lots of courage! I'm very proud of him for being so honest and so up front, yet being so respectful to all of us in how he did things. To his credit, I think we all need to give Mr. Lee a bit of a break. I really can tell in my heart that he truly, truly does care, and is trying his darndest, contrary to what a lot of you all may think, or believe.

He's not burnt out. I had a member yesterday who will be 100% left nameless, who called me at the phone number listed in my signature.

He or she kept asking me over and over again if I felt Joseph was burned out. For the record, let me just say this. I had planned today to talk to this person more if the questions continued, but honestly... look... he/she called me on my tech support line, and when I said I'm not here to play the middle man in this, go ask Joseph directly, go read his blog post which explains everything of his reasonings, they didn't apparently do so. I have no issue talking to others, including this member both as a friend, and as a business related thing, but don't! put me as the middle man, off business hours or not. That really put me in a very uncomfortable position yesterday. I felt put on the immediate spot, as I didn't want to say anything privately or publicly, and be taken as being rude, but I neither wanted to hold back and not say how I felt about things.

I'm just a member of the list, and a fairly new one at that. Just because I put my work phone number in my signature doesn't mean I did so, so that people could call me about list admin duties. I'm not a mod, nor an admin, nor wish to be frankly.

My point is, if Joseph really were "burnt out," quote unquote, then don't you think he probably wouldn't have been so willing to explain on his blog? He posted that link for a reason, and that reason wasn't to have people just ignore it, then later wonder. It's the whole shoot and kill now, ask questions later principle. It shouldn't be that way. Joseph gave you all a resource to look at, if you're wondering, so, for goodness sake, use it if you're wonderring. I, shouldn't have to be the one to clear this up for everyone on the list. It's not my responsibility, nor my problem.

Again, sorry to be so brutally direct about this statement, but I had to say something before this got more out of hand than it already has, and I beg the admins' pardon for having to say this publicly with my utmost of respect for them.
---
Christopher Gilland
JAWS Certified, 2016.
Training Instructor.

clgilland07@gmail.com
Phone: (704) 256-8010 Extension 401.
----- Original Message -----
From: Kwork
To: nvda@groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 12:32 PM
Subject: [nvda] qualifying to manage a list (stupid hash tags)


Joseph, those are very good points on which to choose a new moderator. I think that another point is that they also need to be respected by the majority of the list members where they will serve, and that's where the on list voting will help. The more that vote on this type of topic, the greater the chance that cooler heads will prevail, and the transition will be a smooth one.
Thank you, Joseph, for all the work you've done with NVDA, and this list, over the past three years.
Travis
----- Original Message -----
From: Joseph Lee
To: nvda@groups.io
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 11:19 PM
Subject: [nvda] Follow-up: moderator qualifications #ModNotice #AdminNotice


Hi,



If you or someone you know fulfills all (yes, ALL) of the following requirements, then please put forth your name or that person's name as the candidate for the new moderator (note that this isn't about head moderator position, and our current head moderator is Nimer Jaber):



1. Have used NVDA for the past three years or more.

2. Have been a member of this forum and other NVDA forums for the past three years or more.

3. Ability to communicate well, especially when confronting a crisis such as misbehaving members, off-topic messages and such.

4. Ability to communicate kindly (and with humility) even in the face of adversity (especially during arbitration hearing proceedings).

5. Willingness to seek advice from moderators and members of this forum when making list-wide decisions.

6. Familiarity with Groups.IO administration controls.

7. Ability to serve as a user-side advocate when talking to NV Access and other NVDA developers.

8. Ability to deliver important news from NV Access such as NVDA release announcements in a timely manner.

9. Willingness to step down from position of power when appropriate (recalled, on his or her own will and so on).

10. Willingness to shower members of this list and the wider NVDA community with love and mercy, including to misbehaving members.

11. Having the servant's attitude (to serve, not to be served).

12. Willingness to be accountable and answerable to members of this list and the public.

13. Must be at least 21 years of age or older (or considered an adult in the country a candidate resides in).



Some of you may say, "look, these requirements are too hard." I believe that, as a public face of this list (alongside other moderators and members), you are responsible for the fate and reputation of this list, and in extension, NVDA community and NVDA screen reader itself. Thus only applications from serious candidates will be accepted (applications will be accepted until early April, and election will be held by end of April so the new moderator can adjust to his or her new role throughout May).



Thank you.

Cheers,

Joseph

P.S. The reason for making these requirements tough is because of the following blog post:

http://joslee22590.blogspot.com/2016/03/if-i-die-tonight-2-showering-forum.html?spref=tw

Although the post talks about head moderators, it applies to associate moderators as well. Good luck.


Re: a suggestion for a future release of NVDA

 

Hi,
This will require the following:
1. NVDA should be notified that the document is open (completely).
2. Somehow, Outlook messages (or message body window from any email client)
should be treated as a document that supports automatic say all.
Unfortunately, these cannot be generalized easily, so I'd say it should be
held off for a while.
Technical (for resident developers): There is an event NVDA fires to remind
itself that document loading has been completed. This needs to take care of
cases like what Rosemarie is describing (right now, web browser support code
uses this, including that of Edge (if I remember right)).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: Rosemarie Chavarria [mailto:knitqueen2007@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 8:23 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] a suggestion for a future release of NVDA

Yes. That's what I was referring to.



-----Original Message-----
From: Pranav Lal [mailto:pranav.lal@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 8:21 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] a suggestion for a future release of NVDA

Hi Rosemarie,



To clarify, do you want a feature that reads a message as soon as it is
opened?



Pranav

From: Rosemarie Chavarria [mailto:knitqueen2007@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 10:59 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: [nvda] a suggestion for a future release of NVDA



Hi, everyone,



Will NVDA be able to automatically read messages in outlook like it does
withother email clients? This would be a great feature to have. I think it
can be done in screen readers like window-eyes and jaws.



Rosemarie


Re: a suggestion for a future release of NVDA

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Yes. That's what I was referring to.

-----Original Message-----
From: Pranav Lal [mailto:pranav.lal@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 8:21 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] a suggestion for a future release of NVDA

Hi Rosemarie,



To clarify, do you want a feature that reads a message as soon as it is
opened?



Pranav

From: Rosemarie Chavarria [mailto:knitqueen2007@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 10:59 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: [nvda] a suggestion for a future release of NVDA



Hi, everyone,



Will NVDA be able to automatically read messages in outlook like it does
withother email clients? This would be a great feature to have. I think it
can be done in screen readers like window-eyes and jaws.



Rosemarie


Re: a suggestion for a future release of NVDA

Pranav Lal
 

Hi Rosemarie,

 

To clarify, do you want a feature that reads a message as soon as it is opened?

 

Pranav

From: Rosemarie Chavarria [mailto:knitqueen2007@...]
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 10:59 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: [nvda] a suggestion for a future release of NVDA

 

Hi, everyone,

 

Will NVDA be able to automatically read messages in outlook like it does withother email clients? This would be a great feature to have. I think it can be done in screen readers like window-eyes and jaws.

 

Rosemarie


Re: a suggestion for a future release of NVDA

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

It doesn't do it. I think there's a way you can make the other screen
readers do it but with NVDA you hit insert down-arrow to read the message.

-----Original Message-----
From: Christopher-Mark Gilland [mailto:clgilland07@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 9:37 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] a suggestion for a future release of NVDA

Does it not do that already? I thought it did.
---
Christopher Gilland
JAWS Certified, 2016.
Training Instructor.

clgilland07@gmail.com <mailto:clgilland07@gmail.com>
Phone: (704) 256-8010 Extension 401.

----- Original Message -----
From: Rosemarie Chavarria <mailto:knitqueen2007@gmail.com>
To: nvda@groups.io <mailto:nvda@groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 1:29 AM
Subject: [nvda] a suggestion for a future release of NVDA


Hi, everyone,



Will NVDA be able to automatically read messages in outlook like it
does withother email clients? This would be a great feature to have. I think
it can be done in screen readers like window-eyes and jaws.



Rosemarie


Re: Very concerned, was: qualifying to manage a list (stupid hash tags)

Lino Morales
 

Laz email me off list at:
lino_and_rico@windstream
Thanks.

On 3/23/2016 10:33 AM, Laz wrote:
um, Chris, no one has said anything bad about Joseph during this
entire time. I have no idea where you're getting that idea but perhaps
you should read things twice before you start bad mouthing people for
absolutely no reason at all. At least go back and reread Gene's post.

Laz

On 3/23/16, Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@gmail.com> wrote:
Unlike Gene, and others, I must say I do not concur with them. If anything,
I actually am with Travis, AKA, Kwork, on this one. Joseph has done a
magnificent job, and the fact that he was man enough to step up and say, I
don't feel that I can do this anymore adiquitly took lots of courage! I'm
very proud of him for being so honest and so up front, yet being so
respectful to all of us in how he did things. To his credit, I think we all
need to give Mr. Lee a bit of a break. I really can tell in my heart that
he truly, truly does care, and is trying his darndest, contrary to what a
lot of you all may think, or believe.

He's not burnt out. I had a member yesterday who will be 100% left
nameless, who called me at the phone number listed in my signature.

He or she kept asking me over and over again if I felt Joseph was burned
out. For the record, let me just say this. I had planned today to talk to
this person more if the questions continued, but honestly... look... he/she
called me on my tech support line, and when I said I'm not here to play the
middle man in this, go ask Joseph directly, go read his blog post which
explains everything of his reasonings, they didn't apparently do so. I have
no issue talking to others, including this member both as a friend, and as a
business related thing, but don't! put me as the middle man, off business
hours or not. That really put me in a very uncomfortable position
yesterday. I felt put on the immediate spot, as I didn't want to say
anything privately or publicly, and be taken as being rude, but I neither
wanted to hold back and not say how I felt about things.

I'm just a member of the list, and a fairly new one at that. Just because I
put my work phone number in my signature doesn't mean I did so, so that
people could call me about list admin duties. I'm not a mod, nor an admin,
nor wish to be frankly.

My point is, if Joseph really were "burnt out," quote unquote, then don't
you think he probably wouldn't have been so willing to explain on his blog?
He posted that link for a reason, and that reason wasn't to have people just
ignore it, then later wonder. It's the whole shoot and kill now, ask
questions later principle. It shouldn't be that way. Joseph gave you all a
resource to look at, if you're wondering, so, for goodness sake, use it if
you're wonderring. I, shouldn't have to be the one to clear this up for
everyone on the list. It's not my responsibility, nor my problem.

Again, sorry to be so brutally direct about this statement, but I had to say
something before this got more out of hand than it already has, and I beg
the admins' pardon for having to say this publicly with my utmost of respect
for them.
---
Christopher Gilland
JAWS Certified, 2016.
Training Instructor.

clgilland07@gmail.com
Phone: (704) 256-8010 Extension 401.
----- Original Message -----
From: Kwork
To: nvda@groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 12:32 PM
Subject: [nvda] qualifying to manage a list (stupid hash tags)


Joseph, those are very good points on which to choose a new moderator. I
think that another point is that they also need to be respected by the
majority of the list members where they will serve, and that's where the on
list voting will help. The more that vote on this type of topic, the greater
the chance that cooler heads will prevail, and the transition will be a
smooth one.
Thank you, Joseph, for all the work you've done with NVDA, and this list,
over the past three years.
Travis
----- Original Message -----
From: Joseph Lee
To: nvda@groups.io
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 11:19 PM
Subject: [nvda] Follow-up: moderator qualifications #ModNotice
#AdminNotice


Hi,



If you or someone you know fulfills all (yes, ALL) of the following
requirements, then please put forth your name or that person's name as the
candidate for the new moderator (note that this isn't about head moderator
position, and our current head moderator is Nimer Jaber):



1. Have used NVDA for the past three years or more.

2. Have been a member of this forum and other NVDA forums for the
past three years or more.

3. Ability to communicate well, especially when confronting a crisis
such as misbehaving members, off-topic messages and such.

4. Ability to communicate kindly (and with humility) even in the
face of adversity (especially during arbitration hearing proceedings).

5. Willingness to seek advice from moderators and members of this
forum when making list-wide decisions.

6. Familiarity with Groups.IO administration controls.

7. Ability to serve as a user-side advocate when talking to NV
Access and other NVDA developers.

8. Ability to deliver important news from NV Access such as NVDA
release announcements in a timely manner.

9. Willingness to step down from position of power when appropriate
(recalled, on his or her own will and so on).

10. Willingness to shower members of this list and the wider NVDA
community with love and mercy, including to misbehaving members.

11. Having the servant's attitude (to serve, not to be served).

12. Willingness to be accountable and answerable to members of this list
and the public.

13. Must be at least 21 years of age or older (or considered an adult in
the country a candidate resides in).



Some of you may say, "look, these requirements are too hard." I believe
that, as a public face of this list (alongside other moderators and
members), you are responsible for the fate and reputation of this list, and
in extension, NVDA community and NVDA screen reader itself. Thus only
applications from serious candidates will be accepted (applications will be
accepted until early April, and election will be held by end of April so the
new moderator can adjust to his or her new role throughout May).



Thank you.

Cheers,

Joseph

P.S. The reason for making these requirements tough is because of the
following blog post:


http://joslee22590.blogspot.com/2016/03/if-i-die-tonight-2-showering-forum.html?spref=tw

Although the post talks about head moderators, it applies to associate
moderators as well. Good luck.



NVDACon 2016: invitation from Joseph Lee, Chair, NVDA Tenth Anniversary Planning Committee

 

Dear members of the NVDA community and supporters around the world:

 

On behalf of NVDA Tenth Anniversary Planning Committee, I’d like to invite you to join us on a four-day journey in April: NVDA Users and Developers Conference (NVDACon) International 2016/Tenth Anniversary Edition:

http://www.nvda-kr.org/files/nvdacon16promo.mp3

 

Event details:

·         Date: April 22, 23, 29, 30.

·         Place: NVDA Korea TeamTalk Server (nvda-kr.org), requires TeamTalk 5.

·         Keynote speakers: Michael Curran, James Teh (NV Access)

·         Featured presenters: Kelly Ford (Microsoft), Marco Zehe (Mozilla), Fernando Botelho (F123 Access), Dave Williams, Sean Randall, Lucy Greco, Pranav Lal (Dictation Bridge), Davy Kager (LibLouis project) and others

·         Website: http://www.nvda-kr.org/en/nvdacon.php

·         Twitter: @NVDACon

 

Hope to see you at NVDACon 2016 in April.

Sincerely,

Joseph

 

 

Joseph S. Lee

Translator, code contributor and community add-ons reviewer, NVDA screen reader project

Chair, NVDA Tenth Anniversary Planning Committee

 

P.S. To resident translators: may I request sending this announcement to your language communities? Thanks.


Re: The danger at the moment of this moderation thread.

Nimer Jaber
 

Hello,

This message is an example of what you stated, an extraneous message to the list not having to do with the topic of NVDA. I would kindly ask that any further discussion of voting, elections, or anything not having to do with NVDA be sent to the owner address. All votes about whether to even have an election are being sent to that address. All votes, if an election happens, will be sent to that address. Once Joseph and I figure out who will be that new individual, we can discuss how to move forward. It is important, though, that Joseph and I do not do anything to affect the running of this list right before a new individual is brought in. I understand why you do not wish to have an election, however sending message after message after message only serves as a vehicle for turning users off of this topic. So let us all please respectfully send any and all feedback and votes to the owner address.

Nimer J

On 3/23/2016 1:14 PM, Gene wrote:
Many new members and many longer term members may leave or become alienated and go nomail or also leave if we have an election for moderator and all campaigning and discussion is carried out on the list.  The amount of traffic on the list devoted to the election could be very large and completely unrelated to the publicly stated purpose of the list and the reason people join. 
 
The loss of some or perhaps many new members as well as the loss or inactivity of some or many old members may be a significant detriment to the list.  It is a really bad idea to conduct the election in a way that may be harmful to the list. 
 
Gene

Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 12:05 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The danger at the moment of this moderation thread.

Hello all,

I am not going to necessarily create a new subgroup or do very much
admin-related until we work out who is going to help moderate this list.
In general, I believe that having a list for discussing list matters is
important, however as we have a moderator that is stepping away from his
role with exemplary effort, I don't want to make any major hasty
decisions just yet until I can have a conversation with the in-coming
candidate.

Thanks.

On 3/23/2016 12:02 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Subgroups is one of the reasons why we switched to Groups.IO along with
> polls, wiki and others (wiki isn't turned on because we already have a
> community wiki). When we switched to Groups.IO earlier this month, I
> envisioned (Nimer may or may not have) a subgroup just for talking about
> list matters (policies and so on), similar to the setup on Win10 forum where
> there is an actual subgroup for discussing list policies, administration
> matters and so on (I'm indeed the head admin; perhaps I need to advertise
> the existence of that subgroup on Win10 forum today...), hence one of the
> questions in the proposal (posted yesterday) was creation of a subgroup.
> Cheers,
> Joseph
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Christopher-Mark Gilland [mailto:clgilland07@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 9:50 AM
> To: nvda@groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] The danger at the moment of this moderation thread.
>
> As much as I 100% agree with Joseph's way of doing this, I also must say,
> with all due respect, I agree with Brian.
>
> I think a subgroup is actually a fantastic idea, and why I didn't think of
> that sooner is beyond me.
> ---
> Christopher Gilland
> JAWS Certified, 2016.
> Training Instructor.
>
> clgilland07@...
> Phone: (704) 256-8010 Extension 401.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brian's Mail list account" <bglists@...>
> To: <nvda@groups.io>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 5:41 AM
> Subject: [nvda] The danger at the moment of this moderation thread.
>
>
>> Is that its all engulfing. Personally, I think one needs to have this on a
>> special group for admin of nvda lists generally.
>> I fear that those coming in in the last few days who want help are drowned
>> out by repeated messages about who how what where and how to vote etc etc.
>>
>>
>> Cannot an announcement just be put here that cannot be followed up?
>> or is that what happened when I got cryptic bounces from this list
>> yesterday. i see mention of sub groups. One supposes this is in effect a
>> new group but automatically, those  subscribed here, also get subscribed
>> there. this will be good as I can then sort them on the group name be it
>> a new name or something related
>>
>>
>> So, can we perhaps do this now. I've kind of lost the will to live looking
>> through the various threads on this, of which I know I've just created
>> another, sorry.
>> Brian
>>
>> bglists@...
>> Sent via blueyonder.
>> Please address personal email to:-
>> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
>> in the display name field.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>





Re: The danger at the moment of this moderation thread.

Gene
 

Many new members and many longer term members may leave or become alienated and go nomail or also leave if we have an election for moderator and all campaigning and discussion is carried out on the list.  The amount of traffic on the list devoted to the election could be very large and completely unrelated to the publicly stated purpose of the list and the reason people join. 
 
The loss of some or perhaps many new members as well as the loss or inactivity of some or many old members may be a significant detriment to the list.  It is a really bad idea to conduct the election in a way that may be harmful to the list. 
 
Gene

Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 12:05 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The danger at the moment of this moderation thread.

Hello all,

I am not going to necessarily create a new subgroup or do very much
admin-related until we work out who is going to help moderate this list.
In general, I believe that having a list for discussing list matters is
important, however as we have a moderator that is stepping away from his
role with exemplary effort, I don't want to make any major hasty
decisions just yet until I can have a conversation with the in-coming
candidate.

Thanks.

On 3/23/2016 12:02 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Subgroups is one of the reasons why we switched to Groups.IO along with
> polls, wiki and others (wiki isn't turned on because we already have a
> community wiki). When we switched to Groups.IO earlier this month, I
> envisioned (Nimer may or may not have) a subgroup just for talking about
> list matters (policies and so on), similar to the setup on Win10 forum where
> there is an actual subgroup for discussing list policies, administration
> matters and so on (I'm indeed the head admin; perhaps I need to advertise
> the existence of that subgroup on Win10 forum today...), hence one of the
> questions in the proposal (posted yesterday) was creation of a subgroup.
> Cheers,
> Joseph
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Christopher-Mark Gilland [mailto:clgilland07@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 9:50 AM
> To: nvda@groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] The danger at the moment of this moderation thread.
>
> As much as I 100% agree with Joseph's way of doing this, I also must say,
> with all due respect, I agree with Brian.
>
> I think a subgroup is actually a fantastic idea, and why I didn't think of
> that sooner is beyond me.
> ---
> Christopher Gilland
> JAWS Certified, 2016.
> Training Instructor.
>
> clgilland07@...
> Phone: (704) 256-8010 Extension 401.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brian's Mail list account" <bglists@...>
> To: <nvda@groups.io>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 5:41 AM
> Subject: [nvda] The danger at the moment of this moderation thread.
>
>
>> Is that its all engulfing. Personally, I think one needs to have this on a
>> special group for admin of nvda lists generally.
>> I fear that those coming in in the last few days who want help are drowned
>> out by repeated messages about who how what where and how to vote etc etc.
>>
>>
>> Cannot an announcement just be put here that cannot be followed up?
>> or is that what happened when I got cryptic bounces from this list
>> yesterday. i see mention of sub groups. One supposes this is in effect a
>> new group but automatically, those  subscribed here, also get subscribed
>> there. this will be good as I can then sort them on the group name be it
>> a new name or something related
>>
>>
>> So, can we perhaps do this now. I've kind of lost the will to live looking
>> through the various threads on this, of which I know I've just created
>> another, sorry.
>> Brian
>>
>> bglists@...
>> Sent via blueyonder.
>> Please address personal email to:-
>> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
>> in the display name field.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>




Re: question on settings

Kevin Huber
 

HI Charlotte:
The key combination to turn this feature on and off is insert-v.
Kevin Huber

On 3/18/16, Charlotte <sirius_black@comcast.net> wrote:
Hello. I just acquired a new windows 10 pc. I can not for the life of me
remember the setting to make the links on a web site read as a single
line and not across the page. I have changed it befrore but just can not
find it. Any help is appreciated. Thanks.
Charlotte





Re: Very concerned, was: qualifying to manage a list (stupid hash tags)

Gene
 

I'm glad you clarified the issue. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 11:50 AM
Subject: Re: Very concerned, was: [nvda] qualifying to manage a list (stupid hash tags)

Hi Gene and others,

I did record an address that I shall post a link to shortly.

 

Perhaps I may have used a wrong word: when I talk about change of generation, what I really meant was the next group of enthusiasts. Sorry about the confusion.

 

As for concerns that I’ll be leaving this community: resignation doesn’t mean departure. I’ll still be around to answer questions, participating as a member and one of the code contributors to NVDA screen reader.

 

As for hashtag issue people were getting: all fixed. Sorry for the inconvenience.

 

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: Gene [mailto:gsasner@...]
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 7:17 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: Very concerned, was: [nvda] qualifying to manage a list (stupid hash tags)

 

I did not and I went out of my way to say, that I was not criticizing Michael lee for stepping down.  I criticized the reasons he gave and pointed out that that reason implies that younger members might be considered for the position while older people might not be because they are not and cannot be part of the generational shift.  If most people resigned from things because they were in their late twenties or early thirties, we would lose most of the experience and knowledge that comes with age.  If most of us resigned because we were worried about who would carry on if some mishap happened to us, then everyone would have to resign from everything because a mishap can happen to anyone.  That's why there are procedures that institutions have for filling a vacancy left by death or disability. 

 

I also said that I appreciate the work Michael Lee did in running the list. 

 

My main criticism was to the proposal to elect the next moderator. 

 

If Michael Lee wants to resign, that's his decision.  I did not criticize that decision. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 7:40 AM

Subject: Re: Very concerned, was: [nvda] qualifying to manage a list (stupid hash tags)

 

Unlike Gene, and others, I must say I do not concur with them.  If anything, I actually am with Travis, AKA, Kwork, on this one.  Joseph has done a magnificent job, and the fact that he was man enough to step up and say, I don't feel that I can do this anymore adiquitly took lots of courage!  I'm very proud of him for being so honest and so up front, yet being so respectful to all of us in how he did things.  To his credit, I think we all need to give Mr. Lee a bit of a break.  I really can tell in my heart that he truly, truly does care, and is trying his darndest, contrary to what a lot of you all may think, or believe.

 

He's not burnt out.  I had a member yesterday who will be 100% left nameless, who called me at the phone number listed in my signature.

 

He or she kept asking me over and over again if I felt Joseph was burned out.  For the record, let me just say this.  I had planned today to talk to this person more if the questions continued, but honestly... look... he/she called me on my tech support line, and when I said I'm not here to play the middle man in this, go ask Joseph directly, go read his blog post which explains everything of his reasonings, they didn't apparently do so.  I have no issue talking to others, including this member both as a friend, and as a business related thing, but don't! put me as the middle man, off business hours or not.  That really put me in a very uncomfortable position yesterday. I felt put on the immediate spot, as I didn't want to say anything privately or publicly, and be taken as being rude, but I neither wanted to  hold back and not say how I felt about things.

 

I'm just a member of the list, and a fairly new one at that.  Just because I put my work phone number in my signature doesn't mean I did so, so that people could call me about list admin duties.  I'm not a mod, nor an admin, nor wish to be frankly.

 

My point is, if Joseph really were "burnt out," quote unquote, then don't you think he probably wouldn't have been so willing to explain on his blog?  He posted that link for a reason, and that reason wasn't to have people just ignore it, then later wonder.  It's the whole shoot and kill now, ask questions later principle.  It shouldn't be that way.  Joseph gave you all a resource to look at, if you're wondering, so, for goodness sake, use it if you're wonderring.  I, shouldn't have to be the one to clear this up for everyone on the list.  It's not my responsibility, nor my problem.

 

Again, sorry to be so brutally direct about this statement, but I had to say something before this got more out of hand than it already has, and I beg the admins' pardon for having to say this publicly with my utmost of respect for them.

---
Christopher Gilland
JAWS Certified, 2016.
Training Instructor.

 

clgilland07@...
Phone: (704) 256-8010 Extension 401.

----- Original Message -----

From: Kwork

Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 12:32 PM

Subject: [nvda] qualifying to manage a list (stupid hash tags)

 

Joseph, those are very good points on which to choose a new moderator. I think that another point is that they also need to be respected by the majority of the list members where they will serve, and that's where the on list voting will help. The more that vote on this type of topic, the greater the chance that cooler heads will prevail, and the transition will be a smooth one.

Thank you, Joseph, for all the work you've done with NVDA, and this list, over the past three years.

Travis

----- Original Message -----

From: Joseph Lee

Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 11:19 PM

Subject: [nvda] Follow-up: moderator qualifications #ModNotice #AdminNotice

 

Hi,

 

If you or someone you know fulfills all (yes, ALL) of the following requirements, then please put forth your name or that person’s name as the candidate for the new moderator (note that this isn’t about head moderator position, and our current head moderator is Nimer Jaber):

 

1.       Have used NVDA for the past three years or more.

2.       Have been a member of this forum and other NVDA forums for the past three years or more.

3.       Ability to communicate well, especially when confronting a crisis such as misbehaving members, off-topic messages and such.

4.       Ability to communicate kindly (and with humility) even in the face of adversity (especially during arbitration hearing proceedings).

5.       Willingness to seek advice from moderators and members of this forum when making list-wide decisions.

6.       Familiarity with Groups.IO administration controls.

7.       Ability to serve as a user-side advocate when talking to NV Access and other NVDA developers.

8.       Ability to deliver important news from NV Access such as NVDA release announcements in a timely manner.

9.       Willingness to step down from position of power when appropriate (recalled, on his or her own will and so on).

10.   Willingness to shower members of this list and the wider NVDA community with love and mercy, including to misbehaving members.

11.   Having the servant’s attitude (to serve, not to be served).

12.   Willingness to be accountable and answerable to members of this list and the public.

13.   Must be at least 21 years of age or older (or considered an adult in the country a candidate resides in).

 

Some of you may say, “look, these requirements are too hard.” I believe that, as a public face of this list (alongside other moderators and members), you are responsible for the fate and reputation of this list, and in extension, NVDA community and NVDA screen reader itself. Thus only applications from serious candidates will be accepted (applications will be accepted until early April, and election will be held by end of April so the new moderator can adjust to his or her new role throughout May).

 

Thank you.

Cheers,

Joseph

P.S. The reason for making these requirements tough is because of the following blog post:

http://joslee22590.blogspot.com/2016/03/if-i-die-tonight-2-showering-forum.html?spref=tw

Although the post talks about head moderators, it applies to associate moderators as well. Good luck.


Re: Very concerned, was: qualifying to manage a list (stupid hash tags)

laura cornwell <lauracornwell1@...>
 

Is your server still down? and I would like to talk to you bothas a friend please this isso nice that you are willing to help where you can.

On 3/23/2016 12:38 PM, Christopher-Mark Gilland wrote:
No need to apologise, bro.  It's all good.
---
Christopher Gilland
JAWS Certified, 2016.
Training Instructor.
 
clgilland07@...
Phone: (704) 256-8010 Extension 401.
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 1:33 PM
Subject: Re: Very concerned, was: [nvda] qualifying to manage a list (stupid hash tags)

I kept thinking it is Michael even though I've seen the name in various messages.  I'm sorry about the error.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 10:25 AM
Subject: Re: Very concerned, was: [nvda] qualifying to manage a list (stupid hash tags)

Hi Gene,
Not Michael Lee, it is Joseph Lee.
Just minorly correcting.
However, on this note, I would just like to express my wholehearted
respect to Joseph for all the work he has done.
Thanks.

On 3/23/16, Laz <laz@...> wrote:
> um, Chris, no one has said anything bad about Joseph during this
> entire time. I have no idea where you're getting that idea but perhaps
> you should read things twice before you start bad mouthing people for
> absolutely no reason at all. At least go back and reread Gene's post.
>
> Laz
>
> On 3/23/16, Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...> wrote:
>> Unlike Gene, and others, I must say I do not concur with them.  If
>> anything,
>> I actually am with Travis, AKA, Kwork, on this one.  Joseph has done a
>> magnificent job, and the fact that he was man enough to step up and say,
>> I
>> don't feel that I can do this anymore adiquitly took lots of courage!
>> I'm
>> very proud of him for being so honest and so up front, yet being so
>> respectful to all of us in how he did things.  To his credit, I think we
>> all
>> need to give Mr. Lee a bit of a break.  I really can tell in my heart
>> that
>> he truly, truly does care, and is trying his darndest, contrary to what a
>> lot of you all may think, or believe.
>>
>> He's not burnt out.  I had a member yesterday who will be 100% left
>> nameless, who called me at the phone number listed in my signature.
>>
>> He or she kept asking me over and over again if I felt Joseph was burned
>> out.  For the record, let me just say this.  I had planned today to talk
>> to
>> this person more if the questions continued, but honestly... look...
>> he/she
>> called me on my tech support line, and when I said I'm not here to play
>> the
>> middle man in this, go ask Joseph directly, go read his blog post which
>> explains everything of his reasonings, they didn't apparently do so.  I
>> have
>> no issue talking to others, including this member both as a friend, and as
>> a
>> business related thing, but don't! put me as the middle man, off business
>> hours or not.  That really put me in a very uncomfortable position
>> yesterday. I felt put on the immediate spot, as I didn't want to say
>> anything privately or publicly, and be taken as being rude, but I neither
>> wanted to  hold back and not say how I felt about things.
>>
>> I'm just a member of the list, and a fairly new one at that.  Just because
>> I
>> put my work phone number in my signature doesn't mean I did so, so that
>> people could call me about list admin duties.  I'm not a mod, nor an
>> admin,
>> nor wish to be frankly.
>>
>> My point is, if Joseph really were "burnt out," quote unquote, then don't
>> you think he probably wouldn't have been so willing to explain on his
>> blog?
>> He posted that link for a reason, and that reason wasn't to have people
>> just
>> ignore it, then later wonder.  It's the whole shoot and kill now, ask
>> questions later principle.  It shouldn't be that way.  Joseph gave you all
>> a
>> resource to look at, if you're wondering, so, for goodness sake, use it
>> if
>> you're wonderring.  I, shouldn't have to be the one to clear this up for
>> everyone on the list.  It's not my responsibility, nor my problem.
>>
>> Again, sorry to be so brutally direct about this statement, but I had to
>> say
>> something before this got more out of hand than it already has, and I beg
>> the admins' pardon for having to say this publicly with my utmost of
>> respect
>> for them.
>> ---
>> Christopher Gilland
>> JAWS Certified, 2016.
>> Training Instructor.
>>
>> clgilland07@...
>> Phone: (704) 256-8010 Extension 401.
>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>   From: Kwork
>>   To: nvda@groups.io
>>   Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 12:32 PM
>>   Subject: [nvda] qualifying to manage a list (stupid hash tags)
>>
>>
>>   Joseph, those are very good points on which to choose a new moderator.
>> I
>> think that another point is that they also need to be respected by the
>> majority of the list members where they will serve, and that's where the
>> on
>> list voting will help. The more that vote on this type of topic, the
>> greater
>> the chance that cooler heads will prevail, and the transition will be a
>> smooth one.
>>   Thank you, Joseph, for all the work you've done with NVDA, and this
>> list,
>> over the past three years.
>>   Travis
>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>   From: Joseph Lee
>>   To: nvda@groups.io
>>   Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 11:19 PM
>>   Subject: [nvda] Follow-up: moderator qualifications #ModNotice
>> #AdminNotice
>>
>>
>>   Hi,
>>
>>
>>
>>   If you or someone you know fulfills all (yes, ALL) of the following
>> requirements, then please put forth your name or that person's name as
>> the
>> candidate for the new moderator (note that this isn't about head
>> moderator
>> position, and our current head moderator is Nimer Jaber):
>>
>>
>>
>>   1.       Have used NVDA for the past three years or more.
>>
>>   2.       Have been a member of this forum and other NVDA forums for the
>> past three years or more.
>>
>>   3.       Ability to communicate well, especially when confronting a
>> crisis
>> such as misbehaving members, off-topic messages and such.
>>
>>   4.       Ability to communicate kindly (and with humility) even in the
>> face of adversity (especially during arbitration hearing proceedings).
>>
>>   5.       Willingness to seek advice from moderators and members of this
>> forum when making list-wide decisions.
>>
>>   6.       Familiarity with Groups.IO administration controls.
>>
>>   7.       Ability to serve as a user-side advocate when talking to NV
>> Access and other NVDA developers.
>>
>>   8.       Ability to deliver important news from NV Access such as NVDA
>> release announcements in a timely manner.
>>
>>   9.       Willingness to step down from position of power when
>> appropriate
>> (recalled, on his or her own will and so on).
>>
>>   10.   Willingness to shower members of this list and the wider NVDA
>> community with love and mercy, including to misbehaving members.
>>
>>   11.   Having the servant's attitude (to serve, not to be served).
>>
>>   12.   Willingness to be accountable and answerable to members of this
>> list
>> and the public.
>>
>>   13.   Must be at least 21 years of age or older (or considered an adult
>> in
>> the country a candidate resides in).
>>
>>
>>
>>   Some of you may say, "look, these requirements are too hard." I believe
>> that, as a public face of this list (alongside other moderators and
>> members), you are responsible for the fate and reputation of this list,
>> and
>> in extension, NVDA community and NVDA screen reader itself. Thus only
>> applications from serious candidates will be accepted (applications will
>> be
>> accepted until early April, and election will be held by end of April so
>> the
>> new moderator can adjust to his or her new role throughout May).
>>
>>
>>
>>   Thank you.
>>
>>   Cheers,
>>
>>   Joseph
>>
>>   P.S. The reason for making these requirements tough is because of the
>> following blog post:
>>
>>
>> http://joslee22590.blogspot.com/2016/03/if-i-die-tonight-2-showering-forum.html?spref=tw
>>
>>   Although the post talks about head moderators, it applies to associate
>> moderators as well. Good luck.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Affordably priced Accessible Talking MP3 Players, Accessible phones,
> Bluetooth devices, and accessories
> http://www.talkingmp3players.com/
> Email: laz@...
> Phone: 727-498-0121
> Skype: lazmesa
> Personal Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/laz.mesa
> Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/Talkingmp3players?_rdr
>
>
>
>


--
Warm Regards
Bhavya Shah
Using NVDA (Non Visual Desktop Access) free and open source screen
reader for Microsoft Windows
To download a copy of the free screen reader NVDA, please visit
http://www.nvaccess.org/
Using Google Talkback on Motorolla G second generation Lollipop 5.0.2
Reach me through the following means:
Mobile: +91 7506221750
E-mail id: bhavya.shah125@...
Skype id : bhavya.09




Re: Very concerned, was: qualifying to manage a list (stupid hash tags)

Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>
 


No need to apologise, bro.  It's all good.
---
Christopher Gilland
JAWS Certified, 2016.
Training Instructor.
 
clgilland07@...
Phone: (704) 256-8010 Extension 401.

----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 1:33 PM
Subject: Re: Very concerned, was: [nvda] qualifying to manage a list (stupid hash tags)

I kept thinking it is Michael even though I've seen the name in various messages.  I'm sorry about the error.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 10:25 AM
Subject: Re: Very concerned, was: [nvda] qualifying to manage a list (stupid hash tags)

Hi Gene,
Not Michael Lee, it is Joseph Lee.
Just minorly correcting.
However, on this note, I would just like to express my wholehearted
respect to Joseph for all the work he has done.
Thanks.

On 3/23/16, Laz <laz@...> wrote:
> um, Chris, no one has said anything bad about Joseph during this
> entire time. I have no idea where you're getting that idea but perhaps
> you should read things twice before you start bad mouthing people for
> absolutely no reason at all. At least go back and reread Gene's post.
>
> Laz
>
> On 3/23/16, Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...> wrote:
>> Unlike Gene, and others, I must say I do not concur with them.  If
>> anything,
>> I actually am with Travis, AKA, Kwork, on this one.  Joseph has done a
>> magnificent job, and the fact that he was man enough to step up and say,
>> I
>> don't feel that I can do this anymore adiquitly took lots of courage!
>> I'm
>> very proud of him for being so honest and so up front, yet being so
>> respectful to all of us in how he did things.  To his credit, I think we
>> all
>> need to give Mr. Lee a bit of a break.  I really can tell in my heart
>> that
>> he truly, truly does care, and is trying his darndest, contrary to what a
>> lot of you all may think, or believe.
>>
>> He's not burnt out.  I had a member yesterday who will be 100% left
>> nameless, who called me at the phone number listed in my signature.
>>
>> He or she kept asking me over and over again if I felt Joseph was burned
>> out.  For the record, let me just say this.  I had planned today to talk
>> to
>> this person more if the questions continued, but honestly... look...
>> he/she
>> called me on my tech support line, and when I said I'm not here to play
>> the
>> middle man in this, go ask Joseph directly, go read his blog post which
>> explains everything of his reasonings, they didn't apparently do so.  I
>> have
>> no issue talking to others, including this member both as a friend, and as
>> a
>> business related thing, but don't! put me as the middle man, off business
>> hours or not.  That really put me in a very uncomfortable position
>> yesterday. I felt put on the immediate spot, as I didn't want to say
>> anything privately or publicly, and be taken as being rude, but I neither
>> wanted to  hold back and not say how I felt about things.
>>
>> I'm just a member of the list, and a fairly new one at that.  Just because
>> I
>> put my work phone number in my signature doesn't mean I did so, so that
>> people could call me about list admin duties.  I'm not a mod, nor an
>> admin,
>> nor wish to be frankly.
>>
>> My point is, if Joseph really were "burnt out," quote unquote, then don't
>> you think he probably wouldn't have been so willing to explain on his
>> blog?
>> He posted that link for a reason, and that reason wasn't to have people
>> just
>> ignore it, then later wonder.  It's the whole shoot and kill now, ask
>> questions later principle.  It shouldn't be that way.  Joseph gave you all
>> a
>> resource to look at, if you're wondering, so, for goodness sake, use it
>> if
>> you're wonderring.  I, shouldn't have to be the one to clear this up for
>> everyone on the list.  It's not my responsibility, nor my problem.
>>
>> Again, sorry to be so brutally direct about this statement, but I had to
>> say
>> something before this got more out of hand than it already has, and I beg
>> the admins' pardon for having to say this publicly with my utmost of
>> respect
>> for them.
>> ---
>> Christopher Gilland
>> JAWS Certified, 2016.
>> Training Instructor.
>>
>> clgilland07@...
>> Phone: (704) 256-8010 Extension 401.
>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>   From: Kwork
>>   To: nvda@groups.io
>>   Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 12:32 PM
>>   Subject: [nvda] qualifying to manage a list (stupid hash tags)
>>
>>
>>   Joseph, those are very good points on which to choose a new moderator.
>> I
>> think that another point is that they also need to be respected by the
>> majority of the list members where they will serve, and that's where the
>> on
>> list voting will help. The more that vote on this type of topic, the
>> greater
>> the chance that cooler heads will prevail, and the transition will be a
>> smooth one.
>>   Thank you, Joseph, for all the work you've done with NVDA, and this
>> list,
>> over the past three years.
>>   Travis
>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>   From: Joseph Lee
>>   To: nvda@groups.io
>>   Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 11:19 PM
>>   Subject: [nvda] Follow-up: moderator qualifications #ModNotice
>> #AdminNotice
>>
>>
>>   Hi,
>>
>>
>>
>>   If you or someone you know fulfills all (yes, ALL) of the following
>> requirements, then please put forth your name or that person's name as
>> the
>> candidate for the new moderator (note that this isn't about head
>> moderator
>> position, and our current head moderator is Nimer Jaber):
>>
>>
>>
>>   1.       Have used NVDA for the past three years or more.
>>
>>   2.       Have been a member of this forum and other NVDA forums for the
>> past three years or more.
>>
>>   3.       Ability to communicate well, especially when confronting a
>> crisis
>> such as misbehaving members, off-topic messages and such.
>>
>>   4.       Ability to communicate kindly (and with humility) even in the
>> face of adversity (especially during arbitration hearing proceedings).
>>
>>   5.       Willingness to seek advice from moderators and members of this
>> forum when making list-wide decisions.
>>
>>   6.       Familiarity with Groups.IO administration controls.
>>
>>   7.       Ability to serve as a user-side advocate when talking to NV
>> Access and other NVDA developers.
>>
>>   8.       Ability to deliver important news from NV Access such as NVDA
>> release announcements in a timely manner.
>>
>>   9.       Willingness to step down from position of power when
>> appropriate
>> (recalled, on his or her own will and so on).
>>
>>   10.   Willingness to shower members of this list and the wider NVDA
>> community with love and mercy, including to misbehaving members.
>>
>>   11.   Having the servant's attitude (to serve, not to be served).
>>
>>   12.   Willingness to be accountable and answerable to members of this
>> list
>> and the public.
>>
>>   13.   Must be at least 21 years of age or older (or considered an adult
>> in
>> the country a candidate resides in).
>>
>>
>>
>>   Some of you may say, "look, these requirements are too hard." I believe
>> that, as a public face of this list (alongside other moderators and
>> members), you are responsible for the fate and reputation of this list,
>> and
>> in extension, NVDA community and NVDA screen reader itself. Thus only
>> applications from serious candidates will be accepted (applications will
>> be
>> accepted until early April, and election will be held by end of April so
>> the
>> new moderator can adjust to his or her new role throughout May).
>>
>>
>>
>>   Thank you.
>>
>>   Cheers,
>>
>>   Joseph
>>
>>   P.S. The reason for making these requirements tough is because of the
>> following blog post:
>>
>>
>> http://joslee22590.blogspot.com/2016/03/if-i-die-tonight-2-showering-forum.html?spref=tw
>>
>>   Although the post talks about head moderators, it applies to associate
>> moderators as well. Good luck.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Affordably priced Accessible Talking MP3 Players, Accessible phones,
> Bluetooth devices, and accessories
> http://www.talkingmp3players.com/
> Email: laz@...
> Phone: 727-498-0121
> Skype: lazmesa
> Personal Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/laz.mesa
> Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/Talkingmp3players?_rdr
>
>
>
>


--
Warm Regards
Bhavya Shah
Using NVDA (Non Visual Desktop Access) free and open source screen
reader for Microsoft Windows
To download a copy of the free screen reader NVDA, please visit
http://www.nvaccess.org/
Using Google Talkback on Motorolla G second generation Lollipop 5.0.2
Reach me through the following means:
Mobile: +91 7506221750
E-mail id: bhavya.shah125@...
Skype id : bhavya.09



Re: Very concerned, was: qualifying to manage a list (stupid hash tags)

Gene
 

Expressing respect is fine.  That still doesn't mean that an election is the way to select a moderator nor that disagreement should not be expressed.  Respect should not impede criticism offered in the proper spirit.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 10:25 AM
Subject: Re: Very concerned, was: [nvda] qualifying to manage a list (stupid hash tags)

Hi Gene,
Not Michael Lee, it is Joseph Lee.
Just minorly correcting.
However, on this note, I would just like to express my wholehearted
respect to Joseph for all the work he has done.
Thanks.

On 3/23/16, Laz <laz@...> wrote:
> um, Chris, no one has said anything bad about Joseph during this
> entire time. I have no idea where you're getting that idea but perhaps
> you should read things twice before you start bad mouthing people for
> absolutely no reason at all. At least go back and reread Gene's post.
>
> Laz
>
> On 3/23/16, Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...> wrote:
>> Unlike Gene, and others, I must say I do not concur with them.  If
>> anything,
>> I actually am with Travis, AKA, Kwork, on this one.  Joseph has done a
>> magnificent job, and the fact that he was man enough to step up and say,
>> I
>> don't feel that I can do this anymore adiquitly took lots of courage!
>> I'm
>> very proud of him for being so honest and so up front, yet being so
>> respectful to all of us in how he did things.  To his credit, I think we
>> all
>> need to give Mr. Lee a bit of a break.  I really can tell in my heart
>> that
>> he truly, truly does care, and is trying his darndest, contrary to what a
>> lot of you all may think, or believe.
>>
>> He's not burnt out.  I had a member yesterday who will be 100% left
>> nameless, who called me at the phone number listed in my signature.
>>
>> He or she kept asking me over and over again if I felt Joseph was burned
>> out.  For the record, let me just say this.  I had planned today to talk
>> to
>> this person more if the questions continued, but honestly... look...
>> he/she
>> called me on my tech support line, and when I said I'm not here to play
>> the
>> middle man in this, go ask Joseph directly, go read his blog post which
>> explains everything of his reasonings, they didn't apparently do so.  I
>> have
>> no issue talking to others, including this member both as a friend, and as
>> a
>> business related thing, but don't! put me as the middle man, off business
>> hours or not.  That really put me in a very uncomfortable position
>> yesterday. I felt put on the immediate spot, as I didn't want to say
>> anything privately or publicly, and be taken as being rude, but I neither
>> wanted to  hold back and not say how I felt about things.
>>
>> I'm just a member of the list, and a fairly new one at that.  Just because
>> I
>> put my work phone number in my signature doesn't mean I did so, so that
>> people could call me about list admin duties.  I'm not a mod, nor an
>> admin,
>> nor wish to be frankly.
>>
>> My point is, if Joseph really were "burnt out," quote unquote, then don't
>> you think he probably wouldn't have been so willing to explain on his
>> blog?
>> He posted that link for a reason, and that reason wasn't to have people
>> just
>> ignore it, then later wonder.  It's the whole shoot and kill now, ask
>> questions later principle.  It shouldn't be that way.  Joseph gave you all
>> a
>> resource to look at, if you're wondering, so, for goodness sake, use it
>> if
>> you're wonderring.  I, shouldn't have to be the one to clear this up for
>> everyone on the list.  It's not my responsibility, nor my problem.
>>
>> Again, sorry to be so brutally direct about this statement, but I had to
>> say
>> something before this got more out of hand than it already has, and I beg
>> the admins' pardon for having to say this publicly with my utmost of
>> respect
>> for them.
>> ---
>> Christopher Gilland
>> JAWS Certified, 2016.
>> Training Instructor.
>>
>> clgilland07@...
>> Phone: (704) 256-8010 Extension 401.
>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>   From: Kwork
>>   To: nvda@groups.io
>>   Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 12:32 PM
>>   Subject: [nvda] qualifying to manage a list (stupid hash tags)
>>
>>
>>   Joseph, those are very good points on which to choose a new moderator.
>> I
>> think that another point is that they also need to be respected by the
>> majority of the list members where they will serve, and that's where the
>> on
>> list voting will help. The more that vote on this type of topic, the
>> greater
>> the chance that cooler heads will prevail, and the transition will be a
>> smooth one.
>>   Thank you, Joseph, for all the work you've done with NVDA, and this
>> list,
>> over the past three years.
>>   Travis
>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>   From: Joseph Lee
>>   To: nvda@groups.io
>>   Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 11:19 PM
>>   Subject: [nvda] Follow-up: moderator qualifications #ModNotice
>> #AdminNotice
>>
>>
>>   Hi,
>>
>>
>>
>>   If you or someone you know fulfills all (yes, ALL) of the following
>> requirements, then please put forth your name or that person's name as
>> the
>> candidate for the new moderator (note that this isn't about head
>> moderator
>> position, and our current head moderator is Nimer Jaber):
>>
>>
>>
>>   1.       Have used NVDA for the past three years or more.
>>
>>   2.       Have been a member of this forum and other NVDA forums for the
>> past three years or more.
>>
>>   3.       Ability to communicate well, especially when confronting a
>> crisis
>> such as misbehaving members, off-topic messages and such.
>>
>>   4.       Ability to communicate kindly (and with humility) even in the
>> face of adversity (especially during arbitration hearing proceedings).
>>
>>   5.       Willingness to seek advice from moderators and members of this
>> forum when making list-wide decisions.
>>
>>   6.       Familiarity with Groups.IO administration controls.
>>
>>   7.       Ability to serve as a user-side advocate when talking to NV
>> Access and other NVDA developers.
>>
>>   8.       Ability to deliver important news from NV Access such as NVDA
>> release announcements in a timely manner.
>>
>>   9.       Willingness to step down from position of power when
>> appropriate
>> (recalled, on his or her own will and so on).
>>
>>   10.   Willingness to shower members of this list and the wider NVDA
>> community with love and mercy, including to misbehaving members.
>>
>>   11.   Having the servant's attitude (to serve, not to be served).
>>
>>   12.   Willingness to be accountable and answerable to members of this
>> list
>> and the public.
>>
>>   13.   Must be at least 21 years of age or older (or considered an adult
>> in
>> the country a candidate resides in).
>>
>>
>>
>>   Some of you may say, "look, these requirements are too hard." I believe
>> that, as a public face of this list (alongside other moderators and
>> members), you are responsible for the fate and reputation of this list,
>> and
>> in extension, NVDA community and NVDA screen reader itself. Thus only
>> applications from serious candidates will be accepted (applications will
>> be
>> accepted until early April, and election will be held by end of April so
>> the
>> new moderator can adjust to his or her new role throughout May).
>>
>>
>>
>>   Thank you.
>>
>>   Cheers,
>>
>>   Joseph
>>
>>   P.S. The reason for making these requirements tough is because of the
>> following blog post:
>>
>>
>> http://joslee22590.blogspot.com/2016/03/if-i-die-tonight-2-showering-forum.html?spref=tw
>>
>>   Although the post talks about head moderators, it applies to associate
>> moderators as well. Good luck.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Affordably priced Accessible Talking MP3 Players, Accessible phones,
> Bluetooth devices, and accessories
> http://www.talkingmp3players.com/
> Email: laz@...
> Phone: 727-498-0121
> Skype: lazmesa
> Personal Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/laz.mesa
> Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/Talkingmp3players?_rdr
>
>
>
>


--
Warm Regards
Bhavya Shah
Using NVDA (Non Visual Desktop Access) free and open source screen
reader for Microsoft Windows
To download a copy of the free screen reader NVDA, please visit
http://www.nvaccess.org/
Using Google Talkback on Motorolla G second generation Lollipop 5.0.2
Reach me through the following means:
Mobile: +91 7506221750
E-mail id: bhavya.shah125@...
Skype id : bhavya.09



Re: Very concerned, was: qualifying to manage a list (stupid hash tags)

Gene
 

I kept thinking it is Michael even though I've seen the name in various messages.  I'm sorry about the error.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 10:25 AM
Subject: Re: Very concerned, was: [nvda] qualifying to manage a list (stupid hash tags)

Hi Gene,
Not Michael Lee, it is Joseph Lee.
Just minorly correcting.
However, on this note, I would just like to express my wholehearted
respect to Joseph for all the work he has done.
Thanks.

On 3/23/16, Laz <laz@...> wrote:
> um, Chris, no one has said anything bad about Joseph during this
> entire time. I have no idea where you're getting that idea but perhaps
> you should read things twice before you start bad mouthing people for
> absolutely no reason at all. At least go back and reread Gene's post.
>
> Laz
>
> On 3/23/16, Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...> wrote:
>> Unlike Gene, and others, I must say I do not concur with them.  If
>> anything,
>> I actually am with Travis, AKA, Kwork, on this one.  Joseph has done a
>> magnificent job, and the fact that he was man enough to step up and say,
>> I
>> don't feel that I can do this anymore adiquitly took lots of courage!
>> I'm
>> very proud of him for being so honest and so up front, yet being so
>> respectful to all of us in how he did things.  To his credit, I think we
>> all
>> need to give Mr. Lee a bit of a break.  I really can tell in my heart
>> that
>> he truly, truly does care, and is trying his darndest, contrary to what a
>> lot of you all may think, or believe.
>>
>> He's not burnt out.  I had a member yesterday who will be 100% left
>> nameless, who called me at the phone number listed in my signature.
>>
>> He or she kept asking me over and over again if I felt Joseph was burned
>> out.  For the record, let me just say this.  I had planned today to talk
>> to
>> this person more if the questions continued, but honestly... look...
>> he/she
>> called me on my tech support line, and when I said I'm not here to play
>> the
>> middle man in this, go ask Joseph directly, go read his blog post which
>> explains everything of his reasonings, they didn't apparently do so.  I
>> have
>> no issue talking to others, including this member both as a friend, and as
>> a
>> business related thing, but don't! put me as the middle man, off business
>> hours or not.  That really put me in a very uncomfortable position
>> yesterday. I felt put on the immediate spot, as I didn't want to say
>> anything privately or publicly, and be taken as being rude, but I neither
>> wanted to  hold back and not say how I felt about things.
>>
>> I'm just a member of the list, and a fairly new one at that.  Just because
>> I
>> put my work phone number in my signature doesn't mean I did so, so that
>> people could call me about list admin duties.  I'm not a mod, nor an
>> admin,
>> nor wish to be frankly.
>>
>> My point is, if Joseph really were "burnt out," quote unquote, then don't
>> you think he probably wouldn't have been so willing to explain on his
>> blog?
>> He posted that link for a reason, and that reason wasn't to have people
>> just
>> ignore it, then later wonder.  It's the whole shoot and kill now, ask
>> questions later principle.  It shouldn't be that way.  Joseph gave you all
>> a
>> resource to look at, if you're wondering, so, for goodness sake, use it
>> if
>> you're wonderring.  I, shouldn't have to be the one to clear this up for
>> everyone on the list.  It's not my responsibility, nor my problem.
>>
>> Again, sorry to be so brutally direct about this statement, but I had to
>> say
>> something before this got more out of hand than it already has, and I beg
>> the admins' pardon for having to say this publicly with my utmost of
>> respect
>> for them.
>> ---
>> Christopher Gilland
>> JAWS Certified, 2016.
>> Training Instructor.
>>
>> clgilland07@...
>> Phone: (704) 256-8010 Extension 401.
>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>   From: Kwork
>>   To: nvda@groups.io
>>   Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 12:32 PM
>>   Subject: [nvda] qualifying to manage a list (stupid hash tags)
>>
>>
>>   Joseph, those are very good points on which to choose a new moderator.
>> I
>> think that another point is that they also need to be respected by the
>> majority of the list members where they will serve, and that's where the
>> on
>> list voting will help. The more that vote on this type of topic, the
>> greater
>> the chance that cooler heads will prevail, and the transition will be a
>> smooth one.
>>   Thank you, Joseph, for all the work you've done with NVDA, and this
>> list,
>> over the past three years.
>>   Travis
>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>   From: Joseph Lee
>>   To: nvda@groups.io
>>   Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 11:19 PM
>>   Subject: [nvda] Follow-up: moderator qualifications #ModNotice
>> #AdminNotice
>>
>>
>>   Hi,
>>
>>
>>
>>   If you or someone you know fulfills all (yes, ALL) of the following
>> requirements, then please put forth your name or that person's name as
>> the
>> candidate for the new moderator (note that this isn't about head
>> moderator
>> position, and our current head moderator is Nimer Jaber):
>>
>>
>>
>>   1.       Have used NVDA for the past three years or more.
>>
>>   2.       Have been a member of this forum and other NVDA forums for the
>> past three years or more.
>>
>>   3.       Ability to communicate well, especially when confronting a
>> crisis
>> such as misbehaving members, off-topic messages and such.
>>
>>   4.       Ability to communicate kindly (and with humility) even in the
>> face of adversity (especially during arbitration hearing proceedings).
>>
>>   5.       Willingness to seek advice from moderators and members of this
>> forum when making list-wide decisions.
>>
>>   6.       Familiarity with Groups.IO administration controls.
>>
>>   7.       Ability to serve as a user-side advocate when talking to NV
>> Access and other NVDA developers.
>>
>>   8.       Ability to deliver important news from NV Access such as NVDA
>> release announcements in a timely manner.
>>
>>   9.       Willingness to step down from position of power when
>> appropriate
>> (recalled, on his or her own will and so on).
>>
>>   10.   Willingness to shower members of this list and the wider NVDA
>> community with love and mercy, including to misbehaving members.
>>
>>   11.   Having the servant's attitude (to serve, not to be served).
>>
>>   12.   Willingness to be accountable and answerable to members of this
>> list
>> and the public.
>>
>>   13.   Must be at least 21 years of age or older (or considered an adult
>> in
>> the country a candidate resides in).
>>
>>
>>
>>   Some of you may say, "look, these requirements are too hard." I believe
>> that, as a public face of this list (alongside other moderators and
>> members), you are responsible for the fate and reputation of this list,
>> and
>> in extension, NVDA community and NVDA screen reader itself. Thus only
>> applications from serious candidates will be accepted (applications will
>> be
>> accepted until early April, and election will be held by end of April so
>> the
>> new moderator can adjust to his or her new role throughout May).
>>
>>
>>
>>   Thank you.
>>
>>   Cheers,
>>
>>   Joseph
>>
>>   P.S. The reason for making these requirements tough is because of the
>> following blog post:
>>
>>
>> http://joslee22590.blogspot.com/2016/03/if-i-die-tonight-2-showering-forum.html?spref=tw
>>
>>   Although the post talks about head moderators, it applies to associate
>> moderators as well. Good luck.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Affordably priced Accessible Talking MP3 Players, Accessible phones,
> Bluetooth devices, and accessories
> http://www.talkingmp3players.com/
> Email: laz@...
> Phone: 727-498-0121
> Skype: lazmesa
> Personal Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/laz.mesa
> Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/Talkingmp3players?_rdr
>
>
>
>


--
Warm Regards
Bhavya Shah
Using NVDA (Non Visual Desktop Access) free and open source screen
reader for Microsoft Windows
To download a copy of the free screen reader NVDA, please visit
http://www.nvaccess.org/
Using Google Talkback on Motorolla G second generation Lollipop 5.0.2
Reach me through the following means:
Mobile: +91 7506221750
E-mail id: bhavya.shah125@...
Skype id : bhavya.09



Re: Very concerned, was: qualifying to manage a list (stupid hash tags)

Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>
 

Like Joseph, I, too, just for the record used a bad choice of words.  For that, again, Laz and others, I apologize.
---
Christopher Gilland
JAWS Certified, 2016.
Training Instructor.
 
clgilland07@...
Phone: (704) 256-8010 Extension 401.

----- Original Message -----
From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 12:50 PM
Subject: Re: Very concerned, was: [nvda] qualifying to manage a list (stupid hash tags)

Hi Gene and others,

I did record an address that I shall post a link to shortly.

 

Perhaps I may have used a wrong word: when I talk about change of generation, what I really meant was the next group of enthusiasts. Sorry about the confusion.

 

As for concerns that I’ll be leaving this community: resignation doesn’t mean departure. I’ll still be around to answer questions, participating as a member and one of the code contributors to NVDA screen reader.

 

As for hashtag issue people were getting: all fixed. Sorry for the inconvenience.

 

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: Gene [mailto:gsasner@...]
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 7:17 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: Very concerned, was: [nvda] qualifying to manage a list (stupid hash tags)

 

I did not and I went out of my way to say, that I was not criticizing Michael lee for stepping down.  I criticized the reasons he gave and pointed out that that reason implies that younger members might be considered for the position while older people might not be because they are not and cannot be part of the generational shift.  If most people resigned from things because they were in their late twenties or early thirties, we would lose most of the experience and knowledge that comes with age.  If most of us resigned because we were worried about who would carry on if some mishap happened to us, then everyone would have to resign from everything because a mishap can happen to anyone.  That's why there are procedures that institutions have for filling a vacancy left by death or disability. 

 

I also said that I appreciate the work Michael Lee did in running the list. 

 

My main criticism was to the proposal to elect the next moderator. 

 

If Michael Lee wants to resign, that's his decision.  I did not criticize that decision. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 7:40 AM

Subject: Re: Very concerned, was: [nvda] qualifying to manage a list (stupid hash tags)

 

Unlike Gene, and others, I must say I do not concur with them.  If anything, I actually am with Travis, AKA, Kwork, on this one.  Joseph has done a magnificent job, and the fact that he was man enough to step up and say, I don't feel that I can do this anymore adiquitly took lots of courage!  I'm very proud of him for being so honest and so up front, yet being so respectful to all of us in how he did things.  To his credit, I think we all need to give Mr. Lee a bit of a break.  I really can tell in my heart that he truly, truly does care, and is trying his darndest, contrary to what a lot of you all may think, or believe.

 

He's not burnt out.  I had a member yesterday who will be 100% left nameless, who called me at the phone number listed in my signature.

 

He or she kept asking me over and over again if I felt Joseph was burned out.  For the record, let me just say this.  I had planned today to talk to this person more if the questions continued, but honestly... look... he/she called me on my tech support line, and when I said I'm not here to play the middle man in this, go ask Joseph directly, go read his blog post which explains everything of his reasonings, they didn't apparently do so.  I have no issue talking to others, including this member both as a friend, and as a business related thing, but don't! put me as the middle man, off business hours or not.  That really put me in a very uncomfortable position yesterday. I felt put on the immediate spot, as I didn't want to say anything privately or publicly, and be taken as being rude, but I neither wanted to  hold back and not say how I felt about things.

 

I'm just a member of the list, and a fairly new one at that.  Just because I put my work phone number in my signature doesn't mean I did so, so that people could call me about list admin duties.  I'm not a mod, nor an admin, nor wish to be frankly.

 

My point is, if Joseph really were "burnt out," quote unquote, then don't you think he probably wouldn't have been so willing to explain on his blog?  He posted that link for a reason, and that reason wasn't to have people just ignore it, then later wonder.  It's the whole shoot and kill now, ask questions later principle.  It shouldn't be that way.  Joseph gave you all a resource to look at, if you're wondering, so, for goodness sake, use it if you're wonderring.  I, shouldn't have to be the one to clear this up for everyone on the list.  It's not my responsibility, nor my problem.

 

Again, sorry to be so brutally direct about this statement, but I had to say something before this got more out of hand than it already has, and I beg the admins' pardon for having to say this publicly with my utmost of respect for them.

---
Christopher Gilland
JAWS Certified, 2016.
Training Instructor.

 

clgilland07@...
Phone: (704) 256-8010 Extension 401.

----- Original Message -----

From: Kwork

Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 12:32 PM

Subject: [nvda] qualifying to manage a list (stupid hash tags)

 

Joseph, those are very good points on which to choose a new moderator. I think that another point is that they also need to be respected by the majority of the list members where they will serve, and that's where the on list voting will help. The more that vote on this type of topic, the greater the chance that cooler heads will prevail, and the transition will be a smooth one.

Thank you, Joseph, for all the work you've done with NVDA, and this list, over the past three years.

Travis

----- Original Message -----

From: Joseph Lee

Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 11:19 PM

Subject: [nvda] Follow-up: moderator qualifications #ModNotice #AdminNotice

 

Hi,

 

If you or someone you know fulfills all (yes, ALL) of the following requirements, then please put forth your name or that person’s name as the candidate for the new moderator (note that this isn’t about head moderator position, and our current head moderator is Nimer Jaber):

 

1.       Have used NVDA for the past three years or more.

2.       Have been a member of this forum and other NVDA forums for the past three years or more.

3.       Ability to communicate well, especially when confronting a crisis such as misbehaving members, off-topic messages and such.

4.       Ability to communicate kindly (and with humility) even in the face of adversity (especially during arbitration hearing proceedings).

5.       Willingness to seek advice from moderators and members of this forum when making list-wide decisions.

6.       Familiarity with Groups.IO administration controls.

7.       Ability to serve as a user-side advocate when talking to NV Access and other NVDA developers.

8.       Ability to deliver important news from NV Access such as NVDA release announcements in a timely manner.

9.       Willingness to step down from position of power when appropriate (recalled, on his or her own will and so on).

10.   Willingness to shower members of this list and the wider NVDA community with love and mercy, including to misbehaving members.

11.   Having the servant’s attitude (to serve, not to be served).

12.   Willingness to be accountable and answerable to members of this list and the public.

13.   Must be at least 21 years of age or older (or considered an adult in the country a candidate resides in).

 

Some of you may say, “look, these requirements are too hard.” I believe that, as a public face of this list (alongside other moderators and members), you are responsible for the fate and reputation of this list, and in extension, NVDA community and NVDA screen reader itself. Thus only applications from serious candidates will be accepted (applications will be accepted until early April, and election will be held by end of April so the new moderator can adjust to his or her new role throughout May).

 

Thank you.

Cheers,

Joseph

P.S. The reason for making these requirements tough is because of the following blog post:

http://joslee22590.blogspot.com/2016/03/if-i-die-tonight-2-showering-forum.html?spref=tw

Although the post talks about head moderators, it applies to associate moderators as well. Good luck.


Re: Very concerned, was: qualifying to manage a list (stupid hash tags)

Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>
 

I didn't say that anyone said something bad about Joseph. Yall're unintentionally putting proverbial words in my mouth. All that I said was, you all need to give Joseph a break. That was a bad choice of words on my part. What I meant was, give him a break, as in, give him a chance to have! a break/stepping back time in his modding abilities. I didn't mean it as in, you all're being unfair to him, give the poor guy a break. Like I said, bad choice of words. Sorry about that.

I feel that Joseph was, and for the time being in the present still is a wonderful moderator, and though I'm saddened that he's leaving that role, realize that all things good come to an end sooner or later. It's just the nature of the fallen world.

Laz, I apologize to you and Joseph, as well as any others who may have felt that the way I stated things in that last message was accusative. I did not mean for it to come across as such, and in you all's credit of defense, I can see where you guys may have read that out of context, so forgive me.

Chris.
---
Christopher Gilland
JAWS Certified, 2016.
Training Instructor.

clgilland07@gmail.com
Phone: (704) 256-8010 Extension 401.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Laz" <laz@talkingmp3players.com>
To: <nvda@groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 10:33 AM
Subject: Re: Very concerned, was: [nvda] qualifying to manage a list (stupid hash tags)


um, Chris, no one has said anything bad about Joseph during this
entire time. I have no idea where you're getting that idea but perhaps
you should read things twice before you start bad mouthing people for
absolutely no reason at all. At least go back and reread Gene's post.

Laz

On 3/23/16, Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@gmail.com> wrote:
Unlike Gene, and others, I must say I do not concur with them. If anything,
I actually am with Travis, AKA, Kwork, on this one. Joseph has done a
magnificent job, and the fact that he was man enough to step up and say, I
don't feel that I can do this anymore adiquitly took lots of courage! I'm
very proud of him for being so honest and so up front, yet being so
respectful to all of us in how he did things. To his credit, I think we all
need to give Mr. Lee a bit of a break. I really can tell in my heart that
he truly, truly does care, and is trying his darndest, contrary to what a
lot of you all may think, or believe.

He's not burnt out. I had a member yesterday who will be 100% left
nameless, who called me at the phone number listed in my signature.

He or she kept asking me over and over again if I felt Joseph was burned
out. For the record, let me just say this. I had planned today to talk to
this person more if the questions continued, but honestly... look... he/she
called me on my tech support line, and when I said I'm not here to play the
middle man in this, go ask Joseph directly, go read his blog post which
explains everything of his reasonings, they didn't apparently do so. I have
no issue talking to others, including this member both as a friend, and as a
business related thing, but don't! put me as the middle man, off business
hours or not. That really put me in a very uncomfortable position
yesterday. I felt put on the immediate spot, as I didn't want to say
anything privately or publicly, and be taken as being rude, but I neither
wanted to hold back and not say how I felt about things.

I'm just a member of the list, and a fairly new one at that. Just because I
put my work phone number in my signature doesn't mean I did so, so that
people could call me about list admin duties. I'm not a mod, nor an admin,
nor wish to be frankly.

My point is, if Joseph really were "burnt out," quote unquote, then don't
you think he probably wouldn't have been so willing to explain on his blog?
He posted that link for a reason, and that reason wasn't to have people just
ignore it, then later wonder. It's the whole shoot and kill now, ask
questions later principle. It shouldn't be that way. Joseph gave you all a
resource to look at, if you're wondering, so, for goodness sake, use it if
you're wonderring. I, shouldn't have to be the one to clear this up for
everyone on the list. It's not my responsibility, nor my problem.

Again, sorry to be so brutally direct about this statement, but I had to say
something before this got more out of hand than it already has, and I beg
the admins' pardon for having to say this publicly with my utmost of respect
for them.
---
Christopher Gilland
JAWS Certified, 2016.
Training Instructor.

clgilland07@gmail.com
Phone: (704) 256-8010 Extension 401.
----- Original Message -----
From: Kwork
To: nvda@groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 12:32 PM
Subject: [nvda] qualifying to manage a list (stupid hash tags)


Joseph, those are very good points on which to choose a new moderator. I
think that another point is that they also need to be respected by the
majority of the list members where they will serve, and that's where the on
list voting will help. The more that vote on this type of topic, the greater
the chance that cooler heads will prevail, and the transition will be a
smooth one.
Thank you, Joseph, for all the work you've done with NVDA, and this list,
over the past three years.
Travis
----- Original Message -----
From: Joseph Lee
To: nvda@groups.io
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 11:19 PM
Subject: [nvda] Follow-up: moderator qualifications #ModNotice
#AdminNotice


Hi,



If you or someone you know fulfills all (yes, ALL) of the following
requirements, then please put forth your name or that person's name as the
candidate for the new moderator (note that this isn't about head moderator
position, and our current head moderator is Nimer Jaber):



1. Have used NVDA for the past three years or more.

2. Have been a member of this forum and other NVDA forums for the
past three years or more.

3. Ability to communicate well, especially when confronting a crisis
such as misbehaving members, off-topic messages and such.

4. Ability to communicate kindly (and with humility) even in the
face of adversity (especially during arbitration hearing proceedings).

5. Willingness to seek advice from moderators and members of this
forum when making list-wide decisions.

6. Familiarity with Groups.IO administration controls.

7. Ability to serve as a user-side advocate when talking to NV
Access and other NVDA developers.

8. Ability to deliver important news from NV Access such as NVDA
release announcements in a timely manner.

9. Willingness to step down from position of power when appropriate
(recalled, on his or her own will and so on).

10. Willingness to shower members of this list and the wider NVDA
community with love and mercy, including to misbehaving members.

11. Having the servant's attitude (to serve, not to be served).

12. Willingness to be accountable and answerable to members of this list
and the public.

13. Must be at least 21 years of age or older (or considered an adult in
the country a candidate resides in).



Some of you may say, "look, these requirements are too hard." I believe
that, as a public face of this list (alongside other moderators and
members), you are responsible for the fate and reputation of this list, and
in extension, NVDA community and NVDA screen reader itself. Thus only
applications from serious candidates will be accepted (applications will be
accepted until early April, and election will be held by end of April so the
new moderator can adjust to his or her new role throughout May).



Thank you.

Cheers,

Joseph

P.S. The reason for making these requirements tough is because of the
following blog post:


http://joslee22590.blogspot.com/2016/03/if-i-die-tonight-2-showering-forum.html?spref=tw

Although the post talks about head moderators, it applies to associate
moderators as well. Good luck.



--
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Re: The danger at the moment of this moderation thread.

Nimer Jaber
 

Hello all,

I am not going to necessarily create a new subgroup or do very much admin-related until we work out who is going to help moderate this list. In general, I believe that having a list for discussing list matters is important, however as we have a moderator that is stepping away from his role with exemplary effort, I don't want to make any major hasty decisions just yet until I can have a conversation with the in-coming candidate.

Thanks.

On 3/23/2016 12:02 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi all,

Subgroups is one of the reasons why we switched to Groups.IO along with
polls, wiki and others (wiki isn't turned on because we already have a
community wiki). When we switched to Groups.IO earlier this month, I
envisioned (Nimer may or may not have) a subgroup just for talking about
list matters (policies and so on), similar to the setup on Win10 forum where
there is an actual subgroup for discussing list policies, administration
matters and so on (I'm indeed the head admin; perhaps I need to advertise
the existence of that subgroup on Win10 forum today...), hence one of the
questions in the proposal (posted yesterday) was creation of a subgroup.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: Christopher-Mark Gilland [mailto:clgilland07@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 9:50 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The danger at the moment of this moderation thread.

As much as I 100% agree with Joseph's way of doing this, I also must say,
with all due respect, I agree with Brian.

I think a subgroup is actually a fantastic idea, and why I didn't think of
that sooner is beyond me.
---
Christopher Gilland
JAWS Certified, 2016.
Training Instructor.

clgilland07@gmail.com
Phone: (704) 256-8010 Extension 401.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian's Mail list account" <bglists@blueyonder.co.uk>
To: <nvda@groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 5:41 AM
Subject: [nvda] The danger at the moment of this moderation thread.


Is that its all engulfing. Personally, I think one needs to have this on a
special group for admin of nvda lists generally.
I fear that those coming in in the last few days who want help are drowned
out by repeated messages about who how what where and how to vote etc etc.


Cannot an announcement just be put here that cannot be followed up?
or is that what happened when I got cryptic bounces from this list
yesterday. i see mention of sub groups. One supposes this is in effect a
new group but automatically, those subscribed here, also get subscribed
there. this will be good as I can then sort them on the group name be it
a new name or something related


So, can we perhaps do this now. I've kind of lost the will to live looking
through the various threads on this, of which I know I've just created
another, sorry.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.






Re: The danger at the moment of this moderation thread.

 

Hi,
Clarification: I'm the head admin of Win10 forum, not this list.

-----Original Message-----
From: Joseph Lee [mailto:joseph.lee22590@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 10:02 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The danger at the moment of this moderation thread.

Hi all,

Subgroups is one of the reasons why we switched to Groups.IO along with
polls, wiki and others (wiki isn't turned on because we already have a
community wiki). When we switched to Groups.IO earlier this month, I
envisioned (Nimer may or may not have) a subgroup just for talking about
list matters (policies and so on), similar to the setup on Win10 forum where
there is an actual subgroup for discussing list policies, administration
matters and so on (I'm indeed the head admin; perhaps I need to advertise
the existence of that subgroup on Win10 forum today...), hence one of the
questions in the proposal (posted yesterday) was creation of a subgroup.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: Christopher-Mark Gilland [mailto:clgilland07@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 9:50 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The danger at the moment of this moderation thread.

As much as I 100% agree with Joseph's way of doing this, I also must say,
with all due respect, I agree with Brian.

I think a subgroup is actually a fantastic idea, and why I didn't think of
that sooner is beyond me.
---
Christopher Gilland
JAWS Certified, 2016.
Training Instructor.

clgilland07@gmail.com
Phone: (704) 256-8010 Extension 401.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian's Mail list account" <bglists@blueyonder.co.uk>
To: <nvda@groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 5:41 AM
Subject: [nvda] The danger at the moment of this moderation thread.


Is that its all engulfing. Personally, I think one needs to have this
on a
special group for admin of nvda lists generally.
I fear that those coming in in the last few days who want help are
drowned
out by repeated messages about who how what where and how to vote etc etc.


Cannot an announcement just be put here that cannot be followed up?
or is that what happened when I got cryptic bounces from this list
yesterday. i see mention of sub groups. One supposes this is in effect
a new group but automatically, those subscribed here, also get
subscribed there. this will be good as I can then sort them on the
group name be it a new name or something related


So, can we perhaps do this now. I've kind of lost the will to live
looking
through the various threads on this, of which I know I've just created
another, sorry.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.