Date   

Re: Sharp or number ? Was :Very concerned

Patrick Le Baudour
 

The number sign and the sharp sign are not the same. the number sign is often used for sharp, as the actual sharp sign is not on the keyboard and quite rare as far as I know. (btw, nvda doesn't know it yet)
So nvda is correct in keeping calling it number rather than sharp.
It is also sometimes called hash or pound. The later would be confusing, because of the monetary unit, so it's out of the way. It could be called number if a number follows, and hash otherwise, like for the minus/dash sign. But I'm not sure how widely known this word is.

-- Patrick.

Le 24/03/2016 09:51, Brian's Mail list account a écrit :
Yes I sent you the mail as it was confusing. Incidentally as these are
called hashtags, presumably due to the # sign, the why is nvda still
calling this number?
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Joseph Lee" <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 4:50 PM
Subject: Re: Very concerned, was: [nvda] qualifying to manage a list
(stupid hash tags)


Hi Gene and others,

I did record an address that I shall post a link to shortly.



Perhaps I may have used a wrong word: when I talk about change of
generation, what I really meant was the next group of enthusiasts. Sorry
about the confusion.



As for concerns that I'll be leaving this community: resignation doesn't
mean departure. I'll still be around to answer questions,
participating as a
member and one of the code contributors to NVDA screen reader.



As for hashtag issue people were getting: all fixed. Sorry for the
inconvenience.



Cheers,

Joseph



From: Gene [mailto:gsasner@ripco.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 7:17 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: Very concerned, was: [nvda] qualifying to manage a list
(stupid
hash tags)



I did not and I went out of my way to say, that I was not criticizing
Michael lee for stepping down. I criticized the reasons he gave and
pointed
out that that reason implies that younger members might be considered for
the position while older people might not be because they are not and
cannot
be part of the generational shift. If most people resigned from things
because they were in their late twenties or early thirties, we would lose
most of the experience and knowledge that comes with age. If most of us
resigned because we were worried about who would carry on if some mishap
happened to us, then everyone would have to resign from everything
because a
mishap can happen to anyone. That's why there are procedures that
institutions have for filling a vacancy left by death or disability.



I also said that I appreciate the work Michael Lee did in running the
list.




My main criticism was to the proposal to elect the next moderator.



If Michael Lee wants to resign, that's his decision. I did not criticize
that decision.



Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Christopher-Mark Gilland <mailto:clgilland07@gmail.com>

Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 7:40 AM

To: nvda@groups.io <mailto:nvda@groups.io>

Subject: Re: Very concerned, was: [nvda] qualifying to manage a list
(stupid
hash tags)



Unlike Gene, and others, I must say I do not concur with them. If
anything,
I actually am with Travis, AKA, Kwork, on this one. Joseph has done a
magnificent job, and the fact that he was man enough to step up and
say, I
don't feel that I can do this anymore adiquitly took lots of courage!
I'm
very proud of him for being so honest and so up front, yet being so
respectful to all of us in how he did things. To his credit, I think
we all
need to give Mr. Lee a bit of a break. I really can tell in my heart
that
he truly, truly does care, and is trying his darndest, contrary to what a
lot of you all may think, or believe.



He's not burnt out. I had a member yesterday who will be 100% left
nameless, who called me at the phone number listed in my signature.



He or she kept asking me over and over again if I felt Joseph was burned
out. For the record, let me just say this. I had planned today to
talk to
this person more if the questions continued, but honestly... look...
he/she
called me on my tech support line, and when I said I'm not here to
play the
middle man in this, go ask Joseph directly, go read his blog post which
explains everything of his reasonings, they didn't apparently do so.
I have
no issue talking to others, including this member both as a friend,
and as a
business related thing, but don't! put me as the middle man, off business
hours or not. That really put me in a very uncomfortable position
yesterday. I felt put on the immediate spot, as I didn't want to say
anything privately or publicly, and be taken as being rude, but I neither
wanted to hold back and not say how I felt about things.



I'm just a member of the list, and a fairly new one at that. Just
because I
put my work phone number in my signature doesn't mean I did so, so that
people could call me about list admin duties. I'm not a mod, nor an
admin,
nor wish to be frankly.



My point is, if Joseph really were "burnt out," quote unquote, then don't
you think he probably wouldn't have been so willing to explain on his
blog?
He posted that link for a reason, and that reason wasn't to have
people just
ignore it, then later wonder. It's the whole shoot and kill now, ask
questions later principle. It shouldn't be that way. Joseph gave you
all a
resource to look at, if you're wondering, so, for goodness sake, use
it if
you're wonderring. I, shouldn't have to be the one to clear this up for
everyone on the list. It's not my responsibility, nor my problem.



Again, sorry to be so brutally direct about this statement, but I had
to say
something before this got more out of hand than it already has, and I beg
the admins' pardon for having to say this publicly with my utmost of
respect
for them.

---
Christopher Gilland
JAWS Certified, 2016.
Training Instructor.



clgilland07@gmail.com <mailto:clgilland07@gmail.com>
Phone: (704) 256-8010 Extension 401.

----- Original Message -----
From: Kwork <mailto:istherelife@gmail.com>

To: nvda@groups.io <mailto:nvda@groups.io>

Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 12:32 PM

Subject: [nvda] qualifying to manage a list (stupid hash tags)



Joseph, those are very good points on which to choose a new moderator. I
think that another point is that they also need to be respected by the
majority of the list members where they will serve, and that's where
the on
list voting will help. The more that vote on this type of topic, the
greater
the chance that cooler heads will prevail, and the transition will be a
smooth one.

Thank you, Joseph, for all the work you've done with NVDA, and this list,
over the past three years.

Travis

----- Original Message -----
From: Joseph Lee <mailto:joseph.lee22590@gmail.com>

To: nvda@groups.io <mailto:nvda@groups.io>

Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 11:19 PM

Subject: [nvda] Follow-up: moderator qualifications #ModNotice
#AdminNotice



Hi,



If you or someone you know fulfills all (yes, ALL) of the following
requirements, then please put forth your name or that person's name as
the
candidate for the new moderator (note that this isn't about head
moderator
position, and our current head moderator is Nimer Jaber):



1. Have used NVDA for the past three years or more.

2. Have been a member of this forum and other NVDA forums for
the past
three years or more.

3. Ability to communicate well, especially when confronting a
crisis
such as misbehaving members, off-topic messages and such.

4. Ability to communicate kindly (and with humility) even in the
face
of adversity (especially during arbitration hearing proceedings).

5. Willingness to seek advice from moderators and members of this
forum when making list-wide decisions.

6. Familiarity with Groups.IO administration controls.

7. Ability to serve as a user-side advocate when talking to NV
Access
and other NVDA developers.

8. Ability to deliver important news from NV Access such as NVDA
release announcements in a timely manner.

9. Willingness to step down from position of power when appropriate
(recalled, on his or her own will and so on).

10. Willingness to shower members of this list and the wider NVDA
community with love and mercy, including to misbehaving members.

11. Having the servant's attitude (to serve, not to be served).

12. Willingness to be accountable and answerable to members of this
list
and the public.

13. Must be at least 21 years of age or older (or considered an
adult in
the country a candidate resides in).



Some of you may say, "look, these requirements are too hard." I believe
that, as a public face of this list (alongside other moderators and
members), you are responsible for the fate and reputation of this
list, and
in extension, NVDA community and NVDA screen reader itself. Thus only
applications from serious candidates will be accepted (applications
will be
accepted until early April, and election will be held by end of April
so the
new moderator can adjust to his or her new role throughout May).



Thank you.

Cheers,

Joseph

P.S. The reason for making these requirements tough is because of the
following blog post:

http://joslee22590.blogspot.com/2016/03/if-i-die-tonight-2-showering-forum.h

tml?spref=tw

Although the post talks about head moderators, it applies to associate
moderators as well. Good luck.






Re: Electing a new moderator

Kwork
 

Then vote or put another name forward. I didn't know Joseph when he first
took over around Storm's stepping down, but it's worked out very well.
Travis
Travis

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rosemarie Chavarria" <knitqueen2007@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 4:07 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator


Hi, Lino,

I agree that Joseph has done a damn good job of running this list. I
might just leave the group too if the list has to be run by a perfect
stranger. It's a shame that Joseph has to step down.

Rosemarie



On 3/22/2016 2:36 PM, Lino Morales wrote:
I also agree with Gene here. Joseph has done a damn fine job running
the list. Heck we hear from him mor than Nimer probably cause he works
etc. etc. If this list is going to be run like this in future I don't
want any part of it. Just my 2cents.

On 3/22/2016 9:29 AM, Laz wrote:
Hello,

I must say that I wholeheartedly agree with Gene. I will also add that
voting on names of strangers to be elected to an important position
such as a list moderator could end up having an unqualified candidate
who may have other intentions than those mentioned being voted into
the position and given power to do as they secretly intend. Just look
at the track history of politics. List ownership and moderation is not
a democratic process by any means. We have no idea as to the true
character of most list members. I have already seen one proposal for a
candidate which I'm not certain would make a good moderator as I
believe it's an alias of someone else on the list and that's all I'm
going to say about that. I sincerely hope that Nimer will keep the
power of veto and put a stop to any unqualified person being voted
into the role of moderator.

Laz

On 3/22/16, Gene <gsasner@ripco.com> wrote:
I spent a lot of time and thought replying to this message. Now I
see that
it was rejected because of restricted hash tags. I shall send it
again with
another subject line and I shall make one additional commenbt at the
outset

Since I initially wrote my message, I have seen the start of what will
probably be an avalanche of messages regarding nominations and
discussions
of nominees. I did not join this list to receive hundreds or
thousands of
administration messages nor did most who joined. We joined to
discuss NVDA,
not how to run the list nor who should be in charge.

I appreciate the work you have done in moderating the list and I
appreciate
your intentions. But this is just not the way to run a list. If you
are
determined to run the list as a democracy, please set up a chat
subgroup for
those who want to discuss nominations and make submissions or ask
that such
submissions be sent to you off list, either or both. The main NVDA
list
should be to discuss NVDA and not democratic administrative nor
election
matters except to announce the actual election and present
information about
the nominees.

Here is what I wrote previously.

I almost never comment on list administration on the list but this
is an
exception. If you want to step down, that's your decision and I am not
writing to question or challenge the decision. But generational
change,
when the generation in question is probably in its late twenties or
early
thirties at most makes no sense as a reason. If you are worried about
succession, then it would be far better to have some mechanism where
you
appoint someone to take over with the prior approval of the list owner.

I have never been on, nor ever heard, of a list run like a
democracy. There
are good reasons for this. This is not a democracy, where people have
records and attributes that are known to most members regarding list
administration. There a very few active members and most discussion is
about NVDA in some way. If members were asked to vote on who has
the most
knowledge of NVDA, for example, there would be some grounds for
members to
vote. But this is a list to discuss NVDA. It is not a place where
people
display records of leadership and personality that members are aware
of and
can use to choose a leader. (I don't even know the names of more than
perhaps ten or twenty members on the list and I know them not
because of any
demonstrated personality traits that relate to running the list. I
know
them because they discuss NVDA. There is no corellation between
that and
being able to determine who has the qualities best suited to run a
list.
You may know people well enough yourself to make such a
determination and
frankly, in this context, you and the list owner should do so. I
shall,
respectfully, not vote in the upcoming election. I am not
knowledgeable and
cannot cast an informed meaningful vote and most list members can't
cast an
informed meaningful vote either.

If the list were really a democratic institution, we would have people
holding office with campaigns and some sort of mechanisms for people
to get
to know and evaluate those who serve and run for office. There would be
periodic elections. If we make a mistake and appoint someone who
does not
do a good job in error, this being a list, not a democratic
institution, we
have no means of recall or no periodic elections to replace the
person. We
are electing someone for an indefinite term with most members having no
meaningful information on which to make a decision.

On every list I've been on, the owner runs the list and makes decisions
relevant to administration and the owner and moderators decide how
to divide
up tasks such as moderation. As I said, there are good reasons that
lists
are not run as democracies.

And making some sort of divide in generations when the generation in
their
late twenties or early thirties has most of its collective life to
live is a
really bad idea. The United States Constitution has minimum ages for
assuming different offices. That's because it was believed that
knowledge,
wisdom, and maturity increase with age. What about all those who
may be in
their forties, fifties, sixties, and beyond who may be better
qualified by
the knowledge and experience they have gotten? Are you taking the
position
that anyone under the age of thirty, for example will be considered
to run
the list but those older won't?

The more I think about the reason you gave for stepping down and the
means
you propose to fill the vacancy, the more I realize what a bad
rationale and
procedure it is. And a further irony is that you propose a democratic
election to fill the position but you haven't held an election on
whether
the list should be run as a democracy or in the traditional or other
way.
Isn't that the first thing that should be decided by democratic
means if the
list is a democratic institution? Democracy is not suited to all
institutions and this list is one of them.

As I said at the outset, if you want to step down, I have no quarrel
with
that decision. That is your decision and I am not writing to
question the
decision. But I strongly disagree with the reason given and the
procedure
to fill the vacancy.

I considered writing you off list but, if the list is being run as a
democracy, it follows that other list members should know my
thoughts on
this matter.

Gene
------ Original Message -----
From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 10:26 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Important moderator's letter: I'd like to request next
generation of NVDA enthusiasts to come to the moderator's seat
#ModNotice
#AdminNotice


Dear members of the NVDA International Users list and the wider NVDA
community:



For some, change of generation is a scary thing, while others would
say it
is a wonderful way to reflect upon our past and think about the
future. As a
moderator of this list and the chair of the NVDA Tenth Anniversary
Planning
Committee, I had a chance to think about this today. Specifically, I
was
struck by the following thought: If I die tonight, who'll carry on
my legacy
and serve as a moderator who'll shower you with more love than I did?



You see, for some time, I thought it is better to let a generational
change
happen. We now have members of the next generation who are very
enthusiastic
about NVDA and its community, people who are showing leadership
potential
and folks who are willing to love and serve you and the wider
community. And
I thought that this is a good time to carry this out, seeing that
some of
these new enthusiasts are the ones who are actively involved in
promoting
NVDA and events related to its tenth anniversary.



Thus, effective May 31, 2016, I'll step down from the moderator
position I
held for the past three years. I'd like to request that members of
this list
hold a list-wide election to elect the new moderator. I'll remain a
member
of this list, obeying the new moderator and serving the NVDA community.



Thank you everyone for your support for the past few years.



Cheers,

Joseph

P.S. My blog post on this decision can be found at:

http://joslee22590.blogspot.com/2016/03/if-i-die-tonight-1-legacy-letting-go-of.html







Re: Any NVDA users using inbox.google.com

Armando <braille.bt4753@...>
 

No. I use Mozilla Thunderbird as my email client. I don't use inbox.google.com/.

On 3/24/2016 5:17 AM, Felix G. wrote:
Hello list,
I also use Inbox, as I find it corresponds with how I think about email, more like a living to-do list than electronic letters.
Kind regards,
Felix

On Wed, 23 Mar 2016 at 07:24 Ben J. Bloomgren <bbloomgren@...> wrote:
I’m a mail client guy, but I’ll check it out. I like the flexibility of email clients, and I have tended to look down on webmail. I’ll check Inbox out though.

Thanks,

Ben

On Mar 22, 2016, at 7:39 PM, Kevin Chao <kevinchao89@...> wrote:

For the longest, I've been using gmail.com with Firefox+NVDA, but recently switched to inbox.google.com .
Was curious to know if others have tried Inbox or are using it?
I really like the bundles, pinning, snoozing, smart-replies, and smart links. 



Re: a suggestion for a future release of NVDA

Joe Hunter <joehunter@...>
 

On 24/03/2016 02:36, Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
It doesn't do it. I think there's a way you can make the other screen
readers do it but with NVDA you hit insert down-arrow to read the message.



-----Original Message-----
From: Christopher-Mark Gilland [mailto:clgilland07@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 9:37 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] a suggestion for a future release of NVDA

Does it not do that already? I thought it did.
---
Christopher Gilland
JAWS Certified, 2016.
Training Instructor.
clgilland07@gmail.com <mailto:clgilland07@gmail.com>
Phone: (704) 256-8010 Extension 401.

----- Original Message -----
From: Rosemarie Chavarria <mailto:knitqueen2007@gmail.com>
To: nvda@groups.io <mailto:nvda@groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 1:29 AM
Subject: [nvda] a suggestion for a future release of NVDA


Hi, everyone,



Will NVDA be able to automatically read messages in outlook like it
does withother email clients? This would be a great feature to have. I think
it can be done in screen readers like window-eyes and jaws.



Rosemarie





that's the beauty of using thunderbird it just pulls them in and reads them straight away after you press the del key having read the previous email. Love the kel key as my keyboard does not have right control key. outlook 203 does not read them as they come in, you have to press the read key in hal or simply down arrow. line by line. Joey


Re: The danger at the moment of this moderation thread.

Brian's Mail list account BY <bglists@...>
 

With respect though, unless the reply address is the owner address its not going to work, people will do exactly what I'm doing here, and getting hot under the collar about that is not a good idea as sharp waords from the existing moderators will put folk off as well.



I'm saying nomore here, but please think it through a bit more before doing this again, I'd say.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Nimer Jaber" <nimerjaber1@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 6:29 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The danger at the moment of this moderation thread.


Hello,

This message is an example of what you stated, an extraneous message to
the list not having to do with the topic of NVDA. I would kindly ask
that any further discussion of voting, elections, or anything not having
to do with NVDA be sent to the owner address. All votes about whether to
even have an election are being sent to that address. All votes, if an
election happens, will be sent to that address. Once Joseph and I figure
out who will be that new individual, we can discuss how to move forward.
It is important, though, that Joseph and I do not do anything to affect
the running of this list right before a new individual is brought in. I
understand why you do not wish to have an election, however sending
message after message after message only serves as a vehicle for turning
users off of this topic. So let us all please respectfully send any and
all feedback and votes to the owner address.

Nimer J

On 3/23/2016 1:14 PM, Gene wrote:
Many new members and many longer term members may leave or become
alienated and go nomail or also leave if we have an election for
moderator and all campaigning and discussion is carried out on the
list. The amount of traffic on the list devoted to the election could
be very large and completely unrelated to the publicly stated purpose
of the list and the reason people join.
The loss of some or perhaps many new members as well as the loss or
inactivity of some or many old members may be a significant detriment
to the list. It is a really bad idea to conduct the election in a way
that may be harmful to the list.
Gene

*From:* Nimer Jaber <mailto:nimerjaber1@gmail.com>
*Sent:* Wednesday, March 23, 2016 12:05 PM
*To:* nvda@groups.io <mailto:nvda@groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] The danger at the moment of this moderation thread.

Hello all,

I am not going to necessarily create a new subgroup or do very much
admin-related until we work out who is going to help moderate this list.
In general, I believe that having a list for discussing list matters is
important, however as we have a moderator that is stepping away from his
role with exemplary effort, I don't want to make any major hasty
decisions just yet until I can have a conversation with the in-coming
candidate.

Thanks.

On 3/23/2016 12:02 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi all,

Subgroups is one of the reasons why we switched to Groups.IO along with
polls, wiki and others (wiki isn't turned on because we already have a
community wiki). When we switched to Groups.IO earlier this month, I
envisioned (Nimer may or may not have) a subgroup just for talking about
list matters (policies and so on), similar to the setup on Win10
forum where
there is an actual subgroup for discussing list policies, administration
matters and so on (I'm indeed the head admin; perhaps I need to
advertise
the existence of that subgroup on Win10 forum today...), hence one
of the
questions in the proposal (posted yesterday) was creation of a subgroup.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: Christopher-Mark Gilland [mailto:clgilland07@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 9:50 AM
To: nvda@groups.io <mailto:nvda@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] The danger at the moment of this moderation thread.

As much as I 100% agree with Joseph's way of doing this, I also must
say,
with all due respect, I agree with Brian.

I think a subgroup is actually a fantastic idea, and why I didn't
think of
that sooner is beyond me.
---
Christopher Gilland
JAWS Certified, 2016.
Training Instructor.

clgilland07@gmail.com <mailto:clgilland07@gmail.com>
Phone: (704) 256-8010 Extension 401.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian's Mail list account" <bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
<mailto:bglists@blueyonder.co.uk>>
To: <nvda@groups.io <mailto:nvda@groups.io>>
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 5:41 AM
Subject: [nvda] The danger at the moment of this moderation thread.


Is that its all engulfing. Personally, I think one needs to have
this on a
special group for admin of nvda lists generally.
I fear that those coming in in the last few days who want help are
drowned
out by repeated messages about who how what where and how to vote
etc etc.


Cannot an announcement just be put here that cannot be followed up?
or is that what happened when I got cryptic bounces from this list
yesterday. i see mention of sub groups. One supposes this is in
effect a
new group but automatically, those subscribed here, also get
subscribed
there. this will be good as I can then sort them on the group name
be it
a new name or something related


So, can we perhaps do this now. I've kind of lost the will to live
looking
through the various threads on this, of which I know I've just created
another, sorry.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk <mailto:bglists@blueyonder.co.uk>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk <mailto:briang1@blueyonder.co.uk>, putting
'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.









Re: Any NVDA users using inbox.google.com

Felix G.
 

Hello list,
I also use Inbox, as I find it corresponds with how I think about email, more like a living to-do list than electronic letters.
Kind regards,
Felix

On Wed, 23 Mar 2016 at 07:24 Ben J. Bloomgren <bbloomgren@...> wrote:
I’m a mail client guy, but I’ll check it out. I like the flexibility of email clients, and I have tended to look down on webmail. I’ll check Inbox out though.

Thanks,

Ben

On Mar 22, 2016, at 7:39 PM, Kevin Chao <kevinchao89@...> wrote:

For the longest, I've been using gmail.com with Firefox+NVDA, but recently switched to inbox.google.com .
Was curious to know if others have tried Inbox or are using it?
I really like the bundles, pinning, snoozing, smart-replies, and smart links. 


Re: The danger at the moment of this moderation thread.

Brian's Mail list account BY <bglists@...>
 

This was my main point really.

We regulars will be able to bypass all of this, but new people will be put off by it all. I suggest either a new list or a sub list, but one one needs to opt into if one wants to get involved plugged here. Can this list make followups to agiven thread be sent to the other list?
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@ripco.com>
To: <nvda@groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 6:14 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The danger at the moment of this moderation thread.


Many new members and many longer term members may leave or become alienated and go nomail or also leave if we have an election for moderator and all campaigning and discussion is carried out on the list. The amount of traffic on the list devoted to the election could be very large and completely unrelated to the publicly stated purpose of the list and the reason people join.

The loss of some or perhaps many new members as well as the loss or inactivity of some or many old members may be a significant detriment to the list. It is a really bad idea to conduct the election in a way that may be harmful to the list.

Gene


From: Nimer Jaber
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 12:05 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The danger at the moment of this moderation thread.


Hello all,

I am not going to necessarily create a new subgroup or do very much
admin-related until we work out who is going to help moderate this list.
In general, I believe that having a list for discussing list matters is
important, however as we have a moderator that is stepping away from his
role with exemplary effort, I don't want to make any major hasty
decisions just yet until I can have a conversation with the in-coming
candidate.

Thanks.

On 3/23/2016 12:02 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi all,

Subgroups is one of the reasons why we switched to Groups.IO along with
polls, wiki and others (wiki isn't turned on because we already have a
community wiki). When we switched to Groups.IO earlier this month, I
envisioned (Nimer may or may not have) a subgroup just for talking about
list matters (policies and so on), similar to the setup on Win10 forum where
there is an actual subgroup for discussing list policies, administration
matters and so on (I'm indeed the head admin; perhaps I need to advertise
the existence of that subgroup on Win10 forum today...), hence one of the
questions in the proposal (posted yesterday) was creation of a subgroup.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: Christopher-Mark Gilland [mailto:clgilland07@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 9:50 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The danger at the moment of this moderation thread.

As much as I 100% agree with Joseph's way of doing this, I also must say,
with all due respect, I agree with Brian.

I think a subgroup is actually a fantastic idea, and why I didn't think of
that sooner is beyond me.
---
Christopher Gilland
JAWS Certified, 2016.
Training Instructor.

clgilland07@gmail.com
Phone: (704) 256-8010 Extension 401.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian's Mail list account" <bglists@blueyonder.co.uk>
To: <nvda@groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 5:41 AM
Subject: [nvda] The danger at the moment of this moderation thread.


Is that its all engulfing. Personally, I think one needs to have this on a
special group for admin of nvda lists generally.
I fear that those coming in in the last few days who want help are drowned
out by repeated messages about who how what where and how to vote etc etc.


Cannot an announcement just be put here that cannot be followed up?
or is that what happened when I got cryptic bounces from this list
yesterday. i see mention of sub groups. One supposes this is in effect a
new group but automatically, those subscribed here, also get subscribed
there. this will be good as I can then sort them on the group name be it
a new name or something related


So, can we perhaps do this now. I've kind of lost the will to live looking
through the various threads on this, of which I know I've just created
another, sorry.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.







Re: The danger at the moment of this moderation thread.

Brian's Mail list account BY <bglists@...>
 

But those of us not using win 10 would not actually be on there to see it of course!
Incidentally, while talking win 10 as this is a kind of cross over query, here goes.
Is there a setup up in Windows 7 where if you leave the machine on for a while it installs windows 10 without being asked?
This seems to have happened to a friend and its all a bit annoying.
Of course one can go back, but why should this happen, is there a tick box somewhere that nvda is unaware of that has been clicked? Me? Well I uninstalled the nag update.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Lee" <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 5:02 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The danger at the moment of this moderation thread.


Hi all,

Subgroups is one of the reasons why we switched to Groups.IO along with
polls, wiki and others (wiki isn't turned on because we already have a
community wiki). When we switched to Groups.IO earlier this month, I
envisioned (Nimer may or may not have) a subgroup just for talking about
list matters (policies and so on), similar to the setup on Win10 forum where
there is an actual subgroup for discussing list policies, administration
matters and so on (I'm indeed the head admin; perhaps I need to advertise
the existence of that subgroup on Win10 forum today...), hence one of the
questions in the proposal (posted yesterday) was creation of a subgroup.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: Christopher-Mark Gilland [mailto:clgilland07@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 9:50 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The danger at the moment of this moderation thread.

As much as I 100% agree with Joseph's way of doing this, I also must say,
with all due respect, I agree with Brian.

I think a subgroup is actually a fantastic idea, and why I didn't think of
that sooner is beyond me.
---
Christopher Gilland
JAWS Certified, 2016.
Training Instructor.

clgilland07@gmail.com
Phone: (704) 256-8010 Extension 401.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian's Mail list account" <bglists@blueyonder.co.uk>
To: <nvda@groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 5:41 AM
Subject: [nvda] The danger at the moment of this moderation thread.


Is that its all engulfing. Personally, I think one needs to have this on a
special group for admin of nvda lists generally.
I fear that those coming in in the last few days who want help are drowned
out by repeated messages about who how what where and how to vote etc etc.


Cannot an announcement just be put here that cannot be followed up?
or is that what happened when I got cryptic bounces from this list
yesterday. i see mention of sub groups. One supposes this is in effect a
new group but automatically, those subscribed here, also get subscribed
there. this will be good as I can then sort them on the group name be it
a new name or something related


So, can we perhaps do this now. I've kind of lost the will to live looking
through the various threads on this, of which I know I've just created
another, sorry.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.







Re: Very concerned, was: qualifying to manage a list (stupid hash tags)

Brian's Mail list account BY <bglists@...>
 

Yes I sent you the mail as it was confusing. Incidentally as these are called hashtags, presumably due to the # sign, the why is nvda still calling this number?
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Lee" <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 4:50 PM
Subject: Re: Very concerned, was: [nvda] qualifying to manage a list (stupid hash tags)


Hi Gene and others,

I did record an address that I shall post a link to shortly.



Perhaps I may have used a wrong word: when I talk about change of
generation, what I really meant was the next group of enthusiasts. Sorry
about the confusion.



As for concerns that I'll be leaving this community: resignation doesn't
mean departure. I'll still be around to answer questions, participating as a
member and one of the code contributors to NVDA screen reader.



As for hashtag issue people were getting: all fixed. Sorry for the
inconvenience.



Cheers,

Joseph



From: Gene [mailto:gsasner@ripco.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 7:17 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: Very concerned, was: [nvda] qualifying to manage a list (stupid
hash tags)



I did not and I went out of my way to say, that I was not criticizing
Michael lee for stepping down. I criticized the reasons he gave and pointed
out that that reason implies that younger members might be considered for
the position while older people might not be because they are not and cannot
be part of the generational shift. If most people resigned from things
because they were in their late twenties or early thirties, we would lose
most of the experience and knowledge that comes with age. If most of us
resigned because we were worried about who would carry on if some mishap
happened to us, then everyone would have to resign from everything because a
mishap can happen to anyone. That's why there are procedures that
institutions have for filling a vacancy left by death or disability.



I also said that I appreciate the work Michael Lee did in running the list.




My main criticism was to the proposal to elect the next moderator.



If Michael Lee wants to resign, that's his decision. I did not criticize
that decision.



Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Christopher-Mark Gilland <mailto:clgilland07@gmail.com>

Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 7:40 AM

To: nvda@groups.io <mailto:nvda@groups.io>

Subject: Re: Very concerned, was: [nvda] qualifying to manage a list (stupid
hash tags)



Unlike Gene, and others, I must say I do not concur with them. If anything,
I actually am with Travis, AKA, Kwork, on this one. Joseph has done a
magnificent job, and the fact that he was man enough to step up and say, I
don't feel that I can do this anymore adiquitly took lots of courage! I'm
very proud of him for being so honest and so up front, yet being so
respectful to all of us in how he did things. To his credit, I think we all
need to give Mr. Lee a bit of a break. I really can tell in my heart that
he truly, truly does care, and is trying his darndest, contrary to what a
lot of you all may think, or believe.



He's not burnt out. I had a member yesterday who will be 100% left
nameless, who called me at the phone number listed in my signature.



He or she kept asking me over and over again if I felt Joseph was burned
out. For the record, let me just say this. I had planned today to talk to
this person more if the questions continued, but honestly... look... he/she
called me on my tech support line, and when I said I'm not here to play the
middle man in this, go ask Joseph directly, go read his blog post which
explains everything of his reasonings, they didn't apparently do so. I have
no issue talking to others, including this member both as a friend, and as a
business related thing, but don't! put me as the middle man, off business
hours or not. That really put me in a very uncomfortable position
yesterday. I felt put on the immediate spot, as I didn't want to say
anything privately or publicly, and be taken as being rude, but I neither
wanted to hold back and not say how I felt about things.



I'm just a member of the list, and a fairly new one at that. Just because I
put my work phone number in my signature doesn't mean I did so, so that
people could call me about list admin duties. I'm not a mod, nor an admin,
nor wish to be frankly.



My point is, if Joseph really were "burnt out," quote unquote, then don't
you think he probably wouldn't have been so willing to explain on his blog?
He posted that link for a reason, and that reason wasn't to have people just
ignore it, then later wonder. It's the whole shoot and kill now, ask
questions later principle. It shouldn't be that way. Joseph gave you all a
resource to look at, if you're wondering, so, for goodness sake, use it if
you're wonderring. I, shouldn't have to be the one to clear this up for
everyone on the list. It's not my responsibility, nor my problem.



Again, sorry to be so brutally direct about this statement, but I had to say
something before this got more out of hand than it already has, and I beg
the admins' pardon for having to say this publicly with my utmost of respect
for them.

---
Christopher Gilland
JAWS Certified, 2016.
Training Instructor.



clgilland07@gmail.com <mailto:clgilland07@gmail.com>
Phone: (704) 256-8010 Extension 401.

----- Original Message -----

From: Kwork <mailto:istherelife@gmail.com>

To: nvda@groups.io <mailto:nvda@groups.io>

Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 12:32 PM

Subject: [nvda] qualifying to manage a list (stupid hash tags)



Joseph, those are very good points on which to choose a new moderator. I
think that another point is that they also need to be respected by the
majority of the list members where they will serve, and that's where the on
list voting will help. The more that vote on this type of topic, the greater
the chance that cooler heads will prevail, and the transition will be a
smooth one.

Thank you, Joseph, for all the work you've done with NVDA, and this list,
over the past three years.

Travis

----- Original Message -----

From: Joseph Lee <mailto:joseph.lee22590@gmail.com>

To: nvda@groups.io <mailto:nvda@groups.io>

Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 11:19 PM

Subject: [nvda] Follow-up: moderator qualifications #ModNotice #AdminNotice



Hi,



If you or someone you know fulfills all (yes, ALL) of the following
requirements, then please put forth your name or that person's name as the
candidate for the new moderator (note that this isn't about head moderator
position, and our current head moderator is Nimer Jaber):



1. Have used NVDA for the past three years or more.

2. Have been a member of this forum and other NVDA forums for the past
three years or more.

3. Ability to communicate well, especially when confronting a crisis
such as misbehaving members, off-topic messages and such.

4. Ability to communicate kindly (and with humility) even in the face
of adversity (especially during arbitration hearing proceedings).

5. Willingness to seek advice from moderators and members of this
forum when making list-wide decisions.

6. Familiarity with Groups.IO administration controls.

7. Ability to serve as a user-side advocate when talking to NV Access
and other NVDA developers.

8. Ability to deliver important news from NV Access such as NVDA
release announcements in a timely manner.

9. Willingness to step down from position of power when appropriate
(recalled, on his or her own will and so on).

10. Willingness to shower members of this list and the wider NVDA
community with love and mercy, including to misbehaving members.

11. Having the servant's attitude (to serve, not to be served).

12. Willingness to be accountable and answerable to members of this list
and the public.

13. Must be at least 21 years of age or older (or considered an adult in
the country a candidate resides in).



Some of you may say, "look, these requirements are too hard." I believe
that, as a public face of this list (alongside other moderators and
members), you are responsible for the fate and reputation of this list, and
in extension, NVDA community and NVDA screen reader itself. Thus only
applications from serious candidates will be accepted (applications will be
accepted until early April, and election will be held by end of April so the
new moderator can adjust to his or her new role throughout May).



Thank you.

Cheers,

Joseph

P.S. The reason for making these requirements tough is because of the
following blog post:

http://joslee22590.blogspot.com/2016/03/if-i-die-tonight-2-showering-forum.h
tml?spref=tw

Although the post talks about head moderators, it applies to associate
moderators as well. Good luck.




Re: a suggestion for a future release of NVDA

Brian's Mail list account BY <bglists@...>
 

Tis puzzled me also. Maybe he means automatic say all. and this very much depends on how Outlook as an off linne reader is set up. One has to be careful as Outlook is now the new name for hotmail formerly live formally msn etc etc, and he may mean the web based system which seems to have been designed by a colour blind non keyboard using person.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher-Mark Gilland" <clgilland07@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 4:37 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] a suggestion for a future release of NVDA


Does it not do that already? I thought it did.
---
Christopher Gilland
JAWS Certified, 2016.
Training Instructor.

clgilland07@gmail.com
Phone: (704) 256-8010 Extension 401.
----- Original Message -----
From: Rosemarie Chavarria
To: nvda@groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 1:29 AM
Subject: [nvda] a suggestion for a future release of NVDA


Hi, everyone,



Will NVDA be able to automatically read messages in outlook like it does withother email clients? This would be a great feature to have. I think it can be done in screen readers like window-eyes and jaws.



Rosemarie


Re: Very concerned, was: qualifying to manage a list (stupid hash tags)

Brian's Mail list account BY <bglists@...>
 

I did not read it like that at all. The point is it would be great in my organisation if I could get volunteers who were young to help out, but you can't.

Besides Joseph is hardly old, I took it to mean that people should not stay in place for ever and others should have a chance. If I had the time and the actual ability, I'd do it. I used to do moderation back in the 1980s before the Internet, when it was all on a viewdata platform, but I was younger,the world was simpler, I could see reasonably and nobody knew the right way back then.

Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@ripco.com>
To: <nvda@groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 2:17 PM
Subject: Re: Very concerned, was: [nvda] qualifying to manage a list (stupid hash tags)


I did not and I went out of my way to say, that I was not criticizing Michael lee for stepping down. I criticized the reasons he gave and pointed out that that reason implies that younger members might be considered for the position while older people might not be because they are not and cannot be part of the generational shift. If most people resigned from things because they were in their late twenties or early thirties, we would lose most of the experience and knowledge that comes with age. If most of us resigned because we were worried about who would carry on if some mishap happened to us, then everyone would have to resign from everything because a mishap can happen to anyone. That's why there are procedures that institutions have for filling a vacancy left by death or disability.

I also said that I appreciate the work Michael Lee did in running the list.

My main criticism was to the proposal to elect the next moderator.

If Michael Lee wants to resign, that's his decision. I did not criticize that decision.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Christopher-Mark Gilland
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 7:40 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: Very concerned, was: [nvda] qualifying to manage a list (stupid hash tags)


Unlike Gene, and others, I must say I do not concur with them. If anything, I actually am with Travis, AKA, Kwork, on this one. Joseph has done a magnificent job, and the fact that he was man enough to step up and say, I don't feel that I can do this anymore adiquitly took lots of courage! I'm very proud of him for being so honest and so up front, yet being so respectful to all of us in how he did things. To his credit, I think we all need to give Mr. Lee a bit of a break. I really can tell in my heart that he truly, truly does care, and is trying his darndest, contrary to what a lot of you all may think, or believe.

He's not burnt out. I had a member yesterday who will be 100% left nameless, who called me at the phone number listed in my signature.

He or she kept asking me over and over again if I felt Joseph was burned out. For the record, let me just say this. I had planned today to talk to this person more if the questions continued, but honestly... look... he/she called me on my tech support line, and when I said I'm not here to play the middle man in this, go ask Joseph directly, go read his blog post which explains everything of his reasonings, they didn't apparently do so. I have no issue talking to others, including this member both as a friend, and as a business related thing, but don't! put me as the middle man, off business hours or not. That really put me in a very uncomfortable position yesterday. I felt put on the immediate spot, as I didn't want to say anything privately or publicly, and be taken as being rude, but I neither wanted to hold back and not say how I felt about things.

I'm just a member of the list, and a fairly new one at that. Just because I put my work phone number in my signature doesn't mean I did so, so that people could call me about list admin duties. I'm not a mod, nor an admin, nor wish to be frankly.

My point is, if Joseph really were "burnt out," quote unquote, then don't you think he probably wouldn't have been so willing to explain on his blog? He posted that link for a reason, and that reason wasn't to have people just ignore it, then later wonder. It's the whole shoot and kill now, ask questions later principle. It shouldn't be that way. Joseph gave you all a resource to look at, if you're wondering, so, for goodness sake, use it if you're wonderring. I, shouldn't have to be the one to clear this up for everyone on the list. It's not my responsibility, nor my problem.

Again, sorry to be so brutally direct about this statement, but I had to say something before this got more out of hand than it already has, and I beg the admins' pardon for having to say this publicly with my utmost of respect for them.
---
Christopher Gilland
JAWS Certified, 2016.
Training Instructor.

clgilland07@gmail.com
Phone: (704) 256-8010 Extension 401.
----- Original Message -----
From: Kwork
To: nvda@groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 12:32 PM
Subject: [nvda] qualifying to manage a list (stupid hash tags)


Joseph, those are very good points on which to choose a new moderator. I think that another point is that they also need to be respected by the majority of the list members where they will serve, and that's where the on list voting will help. The more that vote on this type of topic, the greater the chance that cooler heads will prevail, and the transition will be a smooth one.
Thank you, Joseph, for all the work you've done with NVDA, and this list, over the past three years.
Travis
----- Original Message -----
From: Joseph Lee
To: nvda@groups.io
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 11:19 PM
Subject: [nvda] Follow-up: moderator qualifications #ModNotice #AdminNotice


Hi,



If you or someone you know fulfills all (yes, ALL) of the following requirements, then please put forth your name or that person's name as the candidate for the new moderator (note that this isn't about head moderator position, and our current head moderator is Nimer Jaber):



1. Have used NVDA for the past three years or more.

2. Have been a member of this forum and other NVDA forums for the past three years or more.

3. Ability to communicate well, especially when confronting a crisis such as misbehaving members, off-topic messages and such.

4. Ability to communicate kindly (and with humility) even in the face of adversity (especially during arbitration hearing proceedings).

5. Willingness to seek advice from moderators and members of this forum when making list-wide decisions.

6. Familiarity with Groups.IO administration controls.

7. Ability to serve as a user-side advocate when talking to NV Access and other NVDA developers.

8. Ability to deliver important news from NV Access such as NVDA release announcements in a timely manner.

9. Willingness to step down from position of power when appropriate (recalled, on his or her own will and so on).

10. Willingness to shower members of this list and the wider NVDA community with love and mercy, including to misbehaving members.

11. Having the servant's attitude (to serve, not to be served).

12. Willingness to be accountable and answerable to members of this list and the public.

13. Must be at least 21 years of age or older (or considered an adult in the country a candidate resides in).



Some of you may say, "look, these requirements are too hard." I believe that, as a public face of this list (alongside other moderators and members), you are responsible for the fate and reputation of this list, and in extension, NVDA community and NVDA screen reader itself. Thus only applications from serious candidates will be accepted (applications will be accepted until early April, and election will be held by end of April so the new moderator can adjust to his or her new role throughout May).



Thank you.

Cheers,

Joseph

P.S. The reason for making these requirements tough is because of the following blog post:

http://joslee22590.blogspot.com/2016/03/if-i-die-tonight-2-showering-forum.html?spref=tw

Although the post talks about head moderators, it applies to associate moderators as well. Good luck.


Re: a suggestion for a future release of NVDA

 

Hi,
This will require the following:
1. NVDA should be notified that the document is open (completely).
2. Somehow, Outlook messages (or message body window from any email client)
should be treated as a document that supports automatic say all.
Unfortunately, these cannot be generalized easily, so I'd say it should be
held off for a while.
Technical (for resident developers): There is an event NVDA fires to remind
itself that document loading has been completed. This needs to take care of
cases like what Rosemarie is describing (right now, web browser support code
uses this, including that of Edge (if I remember right)).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: Rosemarie Chavarria [mailto:knitqueen2007@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 8:23 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] a suggestion for a future release of NVDA

Yes. That's what I was referring to.



-----Original Message-----
From: Pranav Lal [mailto:pranav.lal@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 8:21 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] a suggestion for a future release of NVDA

Hi Rosemarie,



To clarify, do you want a feature that reads a message as soon as it is
opened?



Pranav

From: Rosemarie Chavarria [mailto:knitqueen2007@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 10:59 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: [nvda] a suggestion for a future release of NVDA



Hi, everyone,



Will NVDA be able to automatically read messages in outlook like it does
withother email clients? This would be a great feature to have. I think it
can be done in screen readers like window-eyes and jaws.



Rosemarie


Re: a suggestion for a future release of NVDA

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Yes. That's what I was referring to.

-----Original Message-----
From: Pranav Lal [mailto:pranav.lal@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 8:21 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] a suggestion for a future release of NVDA

Hi Rosemarie,



To clarify, do you want a feature that reads a message as soon as it is
opened?



Pranav

From: Rosemarie Chavarria [mailto:knitqueen2007@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 10:59 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: [nvda] a suggestion for a future release of NVDA



Hi, everyone,



Will NVDA be able to automatically read messages in outlook like it does
withother email clients? This would be a great feature to have. I think it
can be done in screen readers like window-eyes and jaws.



Rosemarie


Re: a suggestion for a future release of NVDA

Pranav Lal
 

Hi Rosemarie,

 

To clarify, do you want a feature that reads a message as soon as it is opened?

 

Pranav

From: Rosemarie Chavarria [mailto:knitqueen2007@...]
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 10:59 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: [nvda] a suggestion for a future release of NVDA

 

Hi, everyone,

 

Will NVDA be able to automatically read messages in outlook like it does withother email clients? This would be a great feature to have. I think it can be done in screen readers like window-eyes and jaws.

 

Rosemarie


Re: a suggestion for a future release of NVDA

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

It doesn't do it. I think there's a way you can make the other screen
readers do it but with NVDA you hit insert down-arrow to read the message.

-----Original Message-----
From: Christopher-Mark Gilland [mailto:clgilland07@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 9:37 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] a suggestion for a future release of NVDA

Does it not do that already? I thought it did.
---
Christopher Gilland
JAWS Certified, 2016.
Training Instructor.

clgilland07@gmail.com <mailto:clgilland07@gmail.com>
Phone: (704) 256-8010 Extension 401.

----- Original Message -----
From: Rosemarie Chavarria <mailto:knitqueen2007@gmail.com>
To: nvda@groups.io <mailto:nvda@groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 1:29 AM
Subject: [nvda] a suggestion for a future release of NVDA


Hi, everyone,



Will NVDA be able to automatically read messages in outlook like it
does withother email clients? This would be a great feature to have. I think
it can be done in screen readers like window-eyes and jaws.



Rosemarie


Re: Very concerned, was: qualifying to manage a list (stupid hash tags)

Lino Morales
 

Laz email me off list at:
lino_and_rico@windstream
Thanks.

On 3/23/2016 10:33 AM, Laz wrote:
um, Chris, no one has said anything bad about Joseph during this
entire time. I have no idea where you're getting that idea but perhaps
you should read things twice before you start bad mouthing people for
absolutely no reason at all. At least go back and reread Gene's post.

Laz

On 3/23/16, Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@gmail.com> wrote:
Unlike Gene, and others, I must say I do not concur with them. If anything,
I actually am with Travis, AKA, Kwork, on this one. Joseph has done a
magnificent job, and the fact that he was man enough to step up and say, I
don't feel that I can do this anymore adiquitly took lots of courage! I'm
very proud of him for being so honest and so up front, yet being so
respectful to all of us in how he did things. To his credit, I think we all
need to give Mr. Lee a bit of a break. I really can tell in my heart that
he truly, truly does care, and is trying his darndest, contrary to what a
lot of you all may think, or believe.

He's not burnt out. I had a member yesterday who will be 100% left
nameless, who called me at the phone number listed in my signature.

He or she kept asking me over and over again if I felt Joseph was burned
out. For the record, let me just say this. I had planned today to talk to
this person more if the questions continued, but honestly... look... he/she
called me on my tech support line, and when I said I'm not here to play the
middle man in this, go ask Joseph directly, go read his blog post which
explains everything of his reasonings, they didn't apparently do so. I have
no issue talking to others, including this member both as a friend, and as a
business related thing, but don't! put me as the middle man, off business
hours or not. That really put me in a very uncomfortable position
yesterday. I felt put on the immediate spot, as I didn't want to say
anything privately or publicly, and be taken as being rude, but I neither
wanted to hold back and not say how I felt about things.

I'm just a member of the list, and a fairly new one at that. Just because I
put my work phone number in my signature doesn't mean I did so, so that
people could call me about list admin duties. I'm not a mod, nor an admin,
nor wish to be frankly.

My point is, if Joseph really were "burnt out," quote unquote, then don't
you think he probably wouldn't have been so willing to explain on his blog?
He posted that link for a reason, and that reason wasn't to have people just
ignore it, then later wonder. It's the whole shoot and kill now, ask
questions later principle. It shouldn't be that way. Joseph gave you all a
resource to look at, if you're wondering, so, for goodness sake, use it if
you're wonderring. I, shouldn't have to be the one to clear this up for
everyone on the list. It's not my responsibility, nor my problem.

Again, sorry to be so brutally direct about this statement, but I had to say
something before this got more out of hand than it already has, and I beg
the admins' pardon for having to say this publicly with my utmost of respect
for them.
---
Christopher Gilland
JAWS Certified, 2016.
Training Instructor.

clgilland07@gmail.com
Phone: (704) 256-8010 Extension 401.
----- Original Message -----
From: Kwork
To: nvda@groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 12:32 PM
Subject: [nvda] qualifying to manage a list (stupid hash tags)


Joseph, those are very good points on which to choose a new moderator. I
think that another point is that they also need to be respected by the
majority of the list members where they will serve, and that's where the on
list voting will help. The more that vote on this type of topic, the greater
the chance that cooler heads will prevail, and the transition will be a
smooth one.
Thank you, Joseph, for all the work you've done with NVDA, and this list,
over the past three years.
Travis
----- Original Message -----
From: Joseph Lee
To: nvda@groups.io
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 11:19 PM
Subject: [nvda] Follow-up: moderator qualifications #ModNotice
#AdminNotice


Hi,



If you or someone you know fulfills all (yes, ALL) of the following
requirements, then please put forth your name or that person's name as the
candidate for the new moderator (note that this isn't about head moderator
position, and our current head moderator is Nimer Jaber):



1. Have used NVDA for the past three years or more.

2. Have been a member of this forum and other NVDA forums for the
past three years or more.

3. Ability to communicate well, especially when confronting a crisis
such as misbehaving members, off-topic messages and such.

4. Ability to communicate kindly (and with humility) even in the
face of adversity (especially during arbitration hearing proceedings).

5. Willingness to seek advice from moderators and members of this
forum when making list-wide decisions.

6. Familiarity with Groups.IO administration controls.

7. Ability to serve as a user-side advocate when talking to NV
Access and other NVDA developers.

8. Ability to deliver important news from NV Access such as NVDA
release announcements in a timely manner.

9. Willingness to step down from position of power when appropriate
(recalled, on his or her own will and so on).

10. Willingness to shower members of this list and the wider NVDA
community with love and mercy, including to misbehaving members.

11. Having the servant's attitude (to serve, not to be served).

12. Willingness to be accountable and answerable to members of this list
and the public.

13. Must be at least 21 years of age or older (or considered an adult in
the country a candidate resides in).



Some of you may say, "look, these requirements are too hard." I believe
that, as a public face of this list (alongside other moderators and
members), you are responsible for the fate and reputation of this list, and
in extension, NVDA community and NVDA screen reader itself. Thus only
applications from serious candidates will be accepted (applications will be
accepted until early April, and election will be held by end of April so the
new moderator can adjust to his or her new role throughout May).



Thank you.

Cheers,

Joseph

P.S. The reason for making these requirements tough is because of the
following blog post:


http://joslee22590.blogspot.com/2016/03/if-i-die-tonight-2-showering-forum.html?spref=tw

Although the post talks about head moderators, it applies to associate
moderators as well. Good luck.



NVDACon 2016: invitation from Joseph Lee, Chair, NVDA Tenth Anniversary Planning Committee

 

Dear members of the NVDA community and supporters around the world:

 

On behalf of NVDA Tenth Anniversary Planning Committee, I’d like to invite you to join us on a four-day journey in April: NVDA Users and Developers Conference (NVDACon) International 2016/Tenth Anniversary Edition:

http://www.nvda-kr.org/files/nvdacon16promo.mp3

 

Event details:

·         Date: April 22, 23, 29, 30.

·         Place: NVDA Korea TeamTalk Server (nvda-kr.org), requires TeamTalk 5.

·         Keynote speakers: Michael Curran, James Teh (NV Access)

·         Featured presenters: Kelly Ford (Microsoft), Marco Zehe (Mozilla), Fernando Botelho (F123 Access), Dave Williams, Sean Randall, Lucy Greco, Pranav Lal (Dictation Bridge), Davy Kager (LibLouis project) and others

·         Website: http://www.nvda-kr.org/en/nvdacon.php

·         Twitter: @NVDACon

 

Hope to see you at NVDACon 2016 in April.

Sincerely,

Joseph

 

 

Joseph S. Lee

Translator, code contributor and community add-ons reviewer, NVDA screen reader project

Chair, NVDA Tenth Anniversary Planning Committee

 

P.S. To resident translators: may I request sending this announcement to your language communities? Thanks.


Re: The danger at the moment of this moderation thread.

Nimer Jaber
 

Hello,

This message is an example of what you stated, an extraneous message to the list not having to do with the topic of NVDA. I would kindly ask that any further discussion of voting, elections, or anything not having to do with NVDA be sent to the owner address. All votes about whether to even have an election are being sent to that address. All votes, if an election happens, will be sent to that address. Once Joseph and I figure out who will be that new individual, we can discuss how to move forward. It is important, though, that Joseph and I do not do anything to affect the running of this list right before a new individual is brought in. I understand why you do not wish to have an election, however sending message after message after message only serves as a vehicle for turning users off of this topic. So let us all please respectfully send any and all feedback and votes to the owner address.

Nimer J

On 3/23/2016 1:14 PM, Gene wrote:
Many new members and many longer term members may leave or become alienated and go nomail or also leave if we have an election for moderator and all campaigning and discussion is carried out on the list.  The amount of traffic on the list devoted to the election could be very large and completely unrelated to the publicly stated purpose of the list and the reason people join. 
 
The loss of some or perhaps many new members as well as the loss or inactivity of some or many old members may be a significant detriment to the list.  It is a really bad idea to conduct the election in a way that may be harmful to the list. 
 
Gene

Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 12:05 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The danger at the moment of this moderation thread.

Hello all,

I am not going to necessarily create a new subgroup or do very much
admin-related until we work out who is going to help moderate this list.
In general, I believe that having a list for discussing list matters is
important, however as we have a moderator that is stepping away from his
role with exemplary effort, I don't want to make any major hasty
decisions just yet until I can have a conversation with the in-coming
candidate.

Thanks.

On 3/23/2016 12:02 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Subgroups is one of the reasons why we switched to Groups.IO along with
> polls, wiki and others (wiki isn't turned on because we already have a
> community wiki). When we switched to Groups.IO earlier this month, I
> envisioned (Nimer may or may not have) a subgroup just for talking about
> list matters (policies and so on), similar to the setup on Win10 forum where
> there is an actual subgroup for discussing list policies, administration
> matters and so on (I'm indeed the head admin; perhaps I need to advertise
> the existence of that subgroup on Win10 forum today...), hence one of the
> questions in the proposal (posted yesterday) was creation of a subgroup.
> Cheers,
> Joseph
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Christopher-Mark Gilland [mailto:clgilland07@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 9:50 AM
> To: nvda@groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] The danger at the moment of this moderation thread.
>
> As much as I 100% agree with Joseph's way of doing this, I also must say,
> with all due respect, I agree with Brian.
>
> I think a subgroup is actually a fantastic idea, and why I didn't think of
> that sooner is beyond me.
> ---
> Christopher Gilland
> JAWS Certified, 2016.
> Training Instructor.
>
> clgilland07@...
> Phone: (704) 256-8010 Extension 401.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brian's Mail list account" <bglists@...>
> To: <nvda@groups.io>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 5:41 AM
> Subject: [nvda] The danger at the moment of this moderation thread.
>
>
>> Is that its all engulfing. Personally, I think one needs to have this on a
>> special group for admin of nvda lists generally.
>> I fear that those coming in in the last few days who want help are drowned
>> out by repeated messages about who how what where and how to vote etc etc.
>>
>>
>> Cannot an announcement just be put here that cannot be followed up?
>> or is that what happened when I got cryptic bounces from this list
>> yesterday. i see mention of sub groups. One supposes this is in effect a
>> new group but automatically, those  subscribed here, also get subscribed
>> there. this will be good as I can then sort them on the group name be it
>> a new name or something related
>>
>>
>> So, can we perhaps do this now. I've kind of lost the will to live looking
>> through the various threads on this, of which I know I've just created
>> another, sorry.
>> Brian
>>
>> bglists@...
>> Sent via blueyonder.
>> Please address personal email to:-
>> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
>> in the display name field.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>





Re: The danger at the moment of this moderation thread.

Gene
 

Many new members and many longer term members may leave or become alienated and go nomail or also leave if we have an election for moderator and all campaigning and discussion is carried out on the list.  The amount of traffic on the list devoted to the election could be very large and completely unrelated to the publicly stated purpose of the list and the reason people join. 
 
The loss of some or perhaps many new members as well as the loss or inactivity of some or many old members may be a significant detriment to the list.  It is a really bad idea to conduct the election in a way that may be harmful to the list. 
 
Gene

Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 12:05 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The danger at the moment of this moderation thread.

Hello all,

I am not going to necessarily create a new subgroup or do very much
admin-related until we work out who is going to help moderate this list.
In general, I believe that having a list for discussing list matters is
important, however as we have a moderator that is stepping away from his
role with exemplary effort, I don't want to make any major hasty
decisions just yet until I can have a conversation with the in-coming
candidate.

Thanks.

On 3/23/2016 12:02 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Subgroups is one of the reasons why we switched to Groups.IO along with
> polls, wiki and others (wiki isn't turned on because we already have a
> community wiki). When we switched to Groups.IO earlier this month, I
> envisioned (Nimer may or may not have) a subgroup just for talking about
> list matters (policies and so on), similar to the setup on Win10 forum where
> there is an actual subgroup for discussing list policies, administration
> matters and so on (I'm indeed the head admin; perhaps I need to advertise
> the existence of that subgroup on Win10 forum today...), hence one of the
> questions in the proposal (posted yesterday) was creation of a subgroup.
> Cheers,
> Joseph
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Christopher-Mark Gilland [mailto:clgilland07@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 9:50 AM
> To: nvda@groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] The danger at the moment of this moderation thread.
>
> As much as I 100% agree with Joseph's way of doing this, I also must say,
> with all due respect, I agree with Brian.
>
> I think a subgroup is actually a fantastic idea, and why I didn't think of
> that sooner is beyond me.
> ---
> Christopher Gilland
> JAWS Certified, 2016.
> Training Instructor.
>
> clgilland07@...
> Phone: (704) 256-8010 Extension 401.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brian's Mail list account" <bglists@...>
> To: <nvda@groups.io>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 5:41 AM
> Subject: [nvda] The danger at the moment of this moderation thread.
>
>
>> Is that its all engulfing. Personally, I think one needs to have this on a
>> special group for admin of nvda lists generally.
>> I fear that those coming in in the last few days who want help are drowned
>> out by repeated messages about who how what where and how to vote etc etc.
>>
>>
>> Cannot an announcement just be put here that cannot be followed up?
>> or is that what happened when I got cryptic bounces from this list
>> yesterday. i see mention of sub groups. One supposes this is in effect a
>> new group but automatically, those  subscribed here, also get subscribed
>> there. this will be good as I can then sort them on the group name be it
>> a new name or something related
>>
>>
>> So, can we perhaps do this now. I've kind of lost the will to live looking
>> through the various threads on this, of which I know I've just created
>> another, sorry.
>> Brian
>>
>> bglists@...
>> Sent via blueyonder.
>> Please address personal email to:-
>> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
>> in the display name field.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>




Re: question on settings

Kevin Huber
 

HI Charlotte:
The key combination to turn this feature on and off is insert-v.
Kevin Huber

On 3/18/16, Charlotte <sirius_black@comcast.net> wrote:
Hello. I just acquired a new windows 10 pc. I can not for the life of me
remember the setting to make the links on a web site read as a single
line and not across the page. I have changed it befrore but just can not
find it. Any help is appreciated. Thanks.
Charlotte