Date   

Re: problem reading mail

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

I can't think of a place where you could go for formal training.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Shaun Everiss
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 8:37 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

I agree, I have never had formal training in ribbons though.
And this is probably why I have issues with them, is there a place I can get a tutorial on the modern ribbon interface.
I don't have the need right now to use ribbons but if I need to it would be nice to know how it all works.



On 17/02/2017 2:23 p.m., Gene wrote:
Yes, but Shawn said he would consider buying the book and it appears his only reason for doing so would be for the ribbons section. I really don't think it's necessary to buy a book for one section concerning ribbons.

Gene
----- original Message -----

From: Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 6:46 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail


Hi, Gene,



I had bought the book because at that time I was going from windows XP to windows 7. It had a section on how to navigate the ribbon in wordpad.



Rosemarie







From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Gene
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:32 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail



Brian sent a discussion of how to work with ribbons and I offered to send one I wrote and have sent to the list before. Looking at both might be useful. If doing so doesn't answer your questions or allow you to understand most or all of working with ribbons, you might want to buy something but purchasing something may well not be necessary.



Gene

----- original Message -----

From: Rosemarie Chavarria

Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 6:22 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail



Hi,

The book is mainly about windows 7 and vista but there is a section about learning the ribbon.



-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Shaun Everiss
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 3:55 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Hmmm I will have to investigate in that book my wordprocessing course was done on office xp back in the day.
If there is a book on ribbons then I will buy and read it.



On 17/02/2017 11:34 a.m., Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
Hi, Brian,



I think what helped me learn about the ribbon interface was a book that I bought from National Braille Press. I also took a course on word processing through Hadley School for the Blind and there was a section on learning the ribbon in wordpad. I agree with you here. It's not about going backward but advancing.



Rosemarie







From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 12:00 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail



On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 11:48 am, Shaun Everiss wrote:

Ie every other bit of software I have used bar ms software does not have ribbons.

Then you metaphorically "don't get around much anymore." Ribbons are very common in many programs of "relatively recent" design. There are menu-driven programs that were developed that way, but even these are now heading into Universal App interface design as they're being updated.of

And it really doesn't matter, one whit, whether ribbons are common outside Windows or not. They've been the defacto standard under Windows all the way back since the 2007 versions of Office were introduced and I think (though now I can't remember) are standard in Windows 7 functions like Windows Explorer, etc.

None of us gets to choose the interface a software manufacturer goes with. When they change there are several things you can do, one of those is resist and resist for well over a decade - which gets you absolutely nowhere when there's no chance of an interface ever going back to the menu driven one you (and I, for that matter) cut your teeth on.

I also think that there is a lot of "what's too painful to remember, we simply choose to forget" at play here. The multi-level menus of old on programs like Word, Excel, etc., were not in any way "intuitive." There are just too many functions for "intuitive" to be possible.

I recall hating the ribbon interface with a burning passion when it first came out because I already knew precisely how to access my "greatest hits list" either via point and click in menus or keyboard shortcuts. I had to relearn all of this (or a great deal of it) and was not happy in any way, shape, or form. After I did so, slowly but surely, it seemed no more difficult, but definitely no easier, either, than the menu system. I still have to resort to using the help function and/or brute force searching for functions I need only once every several years and almost invariably they've been placed somewhere that is utterly unintuitive to me as far as being "where I'd look first." This is for someone who's been using MS-Windows in all its iterations since the product first appeared on the market.








Re: problem reading mail

 

I agree, I have never had formal training in ribbons though.
And this is probably why I have issues with them, is there a place I can get a tutorial on the modern ribbon interface.
I don't have the need right now to use ribbons but if I need to it would be nice to know how it all works.

On 17/02/2017 2:23 p.m., Gene wrote:
Yes, but Shawn said he would consider buying the book and it appears his only reason for doing so would be for the ribbons section. I really don't think it's necessary to buy a book for one section concerning ribbons.

Gene
----- original Message -----

From: Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 6:46 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail


Hi, Gene,



I had bought the book because at that time I was going from windows XP to windows 7. It had a section on how to navigate the ribbon in wordpad.



Rosemarie







From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:32 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail



Brian sent a discussion of how to work with ribbons and I offered to send one I wrote and have sent to the list before. Looking at both might be useful. If doing so doesn't answer your questions or allow you to understand most or all of working with ribbons, you might want to buy something but purchasing something may well not be necessary.



Gene

----- original Message -----

From: Rosemarie Chavarria

Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 6:22 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail



Hi,

The book is mainly about windows 7 and vista but there is a section about learning the ribbon.



-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Shaun Everiss
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 3:55 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Hmmm I will have to investigate in that book my wordprocessing course was done on office xp back in the day.
If there is a book on ribbons then I will buy and read it.



On 17/02/2017 11:34 a.m., Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
Hi, Brian,



I think what helped me learn about the ribbon interface was a book that I bought from National Braille Press. I also took a course on word processing through Hadley School for the Blind and there was a section on learning the ribbon in wordpad. I agree with you here. It's not about going backward but advancing.



Rosemarie







From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 12:00 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail



On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 11:48 am, Shaun Everiss wrote:

Ie every other bit of software I have used bar ms software does not have ribbons.

Then you metaphorically "don't get around much anymore." Ribbons are very common in many programs of "relatively recent" design. There are menu-driven programs that were developed that way, but even these are now heading into Universal App interface design as they're being updated.of

And it really doesn't matter, one whit, whether ribbons are common outside Windows or not. They've been the defacto standard under Windows all the way back since the 2007 versions of Office were introduced and I think (though now I can't remember) are standard in Windows 7 functions like Windows Explorer, etc.

None of us gets to choose the interface a software manufacturer goes with. When they change there are several things you can do, one of those is resist and resist for well over a decade - which gets you absolutely nowhere when there's no chance of an interface ever going back to the menu driven one you (and I, for that matter) cut your teeth on.

I also think that there is a lot of "what's too painful to remember, we simply choose to forget" at play here. The multi-level menus of old on programs like Word, Excel, etc., were not in any way "intuitive." There are just too many functions for "intuitive" to be possible.

I recall hating the ribbon interface with a burning passion when it first came out because I already knew precisely how to access my "greatest hits list" either via point and click in menus or keyboard shortcuts. I had to relearn all of this (or a great deal of it) and was not happy in any way, shape, or form. After I did so, slowly but surely, it seemed no more difficult, but definitely no easier, either, than the menu system. I still have to resort to using the help function and/or brute force searching for functions I need only once every several years and almost invariably they've been placed somewhere that is utterly unintuitive to me as far as being "where I'd look first." This is for someone who's been using MS-Windows in all its iterations since the product first appeared on the market.








Re: problem reading mail

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Hi, Gene,

 

Sometimes buying a tutorial is helpful--especially if you don't have anybody to show you what to do. There is a course about word processing that Hadley School teaches. Not only do you learn about the ribbon but you learn everything else about word processing.

 

Rosemarie

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 5:24 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

 

Yes, but Shawn said he would consider buying the book and it appears his only reason for doing so would be for the ribbons section.  I really don't think it's necessary to buy a book for one section concerning ribbons. 

 

Gene

----- original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 6:46 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

 

Hi, Gene,

 

I had bought the book because at that time I was going from windows XP to windows 7. It had a section on how to navigate the ribbon in wordpad.

 

Rosemarie

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:32 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

 

Brian sent a discussion of how to work with ribbons and I offered to send one I wrote and have sent to the list before.  Looking at both might be useful.  If doing so doesn't answer your questions or allow you to understand most or all of working with ribbons, you might want to buy something but purchasing something may well not be necessary. 

 

Gene

----- original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 6:22 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

 

Hi,

The book is mainly about windows 7 and vista but there is a section about learning the ribbon.



-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Shaun Everiss
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 3:55 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Hmmm I will have to investigate in that book my wordprocessing course was done on office xp back in the day.
If there is a book on ribbons then I will buy and read it.



On 17/02/2017 11:34 a.m., Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
> Hi, Brian,
>
>
>
> I think what helped me learn about the ribbon interface was a book that I bought from National Braille Press. I also took a course on word processing through Hadley School for the Blind and there was a section on learning the ribbon in wordpad. I agree with you here. It's not about going backward but advancing.
>
>
>
> Rosemarie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 12:00 PM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 11:48 am, Shaun Everiss wrote:
>
> Ie every other bit of software I have used bar ms software does not have ribbons.
>
> Then you metaphorically "don't get around much anymore."   Ribbons are very common in many programs of "relatively recent" design.  There are menu-driven programs that were developed that way, but even these are now heading into Universal App interface design as they're being updated.of
>
> And it really doesn't matter, one whit, whether ribbons are common outside Windows or not.  They've been the defacto standard under Windows all the way back since the 2007 versions of Office were introduced and I think (though now I can't remember) are standard in Windows 7 functions like Windows Explorer, etc.
>
> None of us gets to choose the interface a software manufacturer goes with.  When they change there are several things you can do, one of those is resist and resist for well over a decade - which gets you absolutely nowhere when there's no chance of an interface ever going back to the menu driven one you (and I, for that matter) cut your teeth on.
>
> I also think that there is a lot of "what's too painful to remember, we simply choose to forget" at play here.  The multi-level menus of old on programs like Word, Excel, etc., were not in any way "intuitive."   There are just too many functions for "intuitive" to be possible.
>
> I recall hating the ribbon interface with a burning passion when it first came out because I already knew precisely how to access my "greatest hits list" either via point and click in menus or keyboard shortcuts.  I had to relearn all of this (or a great deal of it) and was not happy in any way, shape, or form.   After I did so, slowly but surely, it seemed no more difficult, but definitely no easier, either, than the menu system.  I still have to resort to using the help function and/or brute force searching for functions I need only once every several years and almost invariably they've been placed somewhere that is utterly unintuitive to me as far as being "where I'd look first."  This is for someone who's been using MS-Windows in all its iterations since the product first appeared on the market.
>





Re: problem reading mail

Gene
 

Yes, but Shawn said he would consider buying the book and it appears his only reason for doing so would be for the ribbons section.  I really don't think it's necessary to buy a book for one section concerning ribbons. 
 
Gene
----- original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 6:46 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Hi, Gene,

 

I had bought the book because at that time I was going from windows XP to windows 7. It had a section on how to navigate the ribbon in wordpad.

 

Rosemarie

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:32 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

 

Brian sent a discussion of how to work with ribbons and I offered to send one I wrote and have sent to the list before.  Looking at both might be useful.  If doing so doesn't answer your questions or allow you to understand most or all of working with ribbons, you might want to buy something but purchasing something may well not be necessary. 

 

Gene

----- original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 6:22 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

 

Hi,

The book is mainly about windows 7 and vista but there is a section about learning the ribbon.



-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Shaun Everiss
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 3:55 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Hmmm I will have to investigate in that book my wordprocessing course was done on office xp back in the day.
If there is a book on ribbons then I will buy and read it.



On 17/02/2017 11:34 a.m., Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
> Hi, Brian,
>
>
>
> I think what helped me learn about the ribbon interface was a book that I bought from National Braille Press. I also took a course on word processing through Hadley School for the Blind and there was a section on learning the ribbon in wordpad. I agree with you here. It's not about going backward but advancing.
>
>
>
> Rosemarie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 12:00 PM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 11:48 am, Shaun Everiss wrote:
>
> Ie every other bit of software I have used bar ms software does not have ribbons.
>
> Then you metaphorically "don't get around much anymore."   Ribbons are very common in many programs of "relatively recent" design.  There are menu-driven programs that were developed that way, but even these are now heading into Universal App interface design as they're being updated.of
>
> And it really doesn't matter, one whit, whether ribbons are common outside Windows or not.  They've been the defacto standard under Windows all the way back since the 2007 versions of Office were introduced and I think (though now I can't remember) are standard in Windows 7 functions like Windows Explorer, etc.
>
> None of us gets to choose the interface a software manufacturer goes with.  When they change there are several things you can do, one of those is resist and resist for well over a decade - which gets you absolutely nowhere when there's no chance of an interface ever going back to the menu driven one you (and I, for that matter) cut your teeth on.
>
> I also think that there is a lot of "what's too painful to remember, we simply choose to forget" at play here.  The multi-level menus of old on programs like Word, Excel, etc., were not in any way "intuitive."   There are just too many functions for "intuitive" to be possible.
>
> I recall hating the ribbon interface with a burning passion when it first came out because I already knew precisely how to access my "greatest hits list" either via point and click in menus or keyboard shortcuts.  I had to relearn all of this (or a great deal of it) and was not happy in any way, shape, or form.   After I did so, slowly but surely, it seemed no more difficult, but definitely no easier, either, than the menu system.  I still have to resort to using the help function and/or brute force searching for functions I need only once every several years and almost invariably they've been placed somewhere that is utterly unintuitive to me as far as being "where I'd look first."  This is for someone who's been using MS-Windows in all its iterations since the product first appeared on the market.
>






Re: Shut Down, etc

Ralph Boersema
 

OK. Thanks to all for your help!

Ralph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 5:20 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Shut Down, etc

I use the alt F-4 method of shutting down. Both alt F-4 and windows x are fast.



-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Rui Fontes
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 1:34 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Shut Down, etc

In Windows 10 that don't work.

windows+X can be a good alternative.

Rui


-----Mensagem Original-----
De: P. Otter
Data: 16 de fevereiro de 2017 21:30
Para: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Assunto: Re: [nvda] Shut Down, etc


hello ralf,
when you're in the desktop, press the windows key.
after that press 2 times uparrow.
you hear shutdown or something, press enter there.
now you can make the choice restart or close the computer or the sleepmode.
succes!
paul o


----- Original Message -----
From: Ralph Boersema
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 10:00 PM
Subject: [nvda] Shut Down, etc


Dear Folks,



My Windows 10 went through some kind of update and now my NVDA cannot access
the Power button for shutting down or restarting, etc. I open the Start
menu, using the Windows key, then go to Navegation, using the tab key. With
the down arrow I get down to the User Account button, but then it won’t
continue down to the Power button. Any suggestions?



Ralph


Re: problem reading mail

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Hi, Gene,

 

I had bought the book because at that time I was going from windows XP to windows 7. It had a section on how to navigate the ribbon in wordpad.

 

Rosemarie

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:32 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

 

Brian sent a discussion of how to work with ribbons and I offered to send one I wrote and have sent to the list before.  Looking at both might be useful.  If doing so doesn't answer your questions or allow you to understand most or all of working with ribbons, you might want to buy something but purchasing something may well not be necessary. 

 

Gene

----- original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 6:22 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

 

Hi,

The book is mainly about windows 7 and vista but there is a section about learning the ribbon.



-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Shaun Everiss
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 3:55 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Hmmm I will have to investigate in that book my wordprocessing course was done on office xp back in the day.
If there is a book on ribbons then I will buy and read it.



On 17/02/2017 11:34 a.m., Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
> Hi, Brian,
>
>
>
> I think what helped me learn about the ribbon interface was a book that I bought from National Braille Press. I also took a course on word processing through Hadley School for the Blind and there was a section on learning the ribbon in wordpad. I agree with you here. It's not about going backward but advancing.
>
>
>
> Rosemarie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 12:00 PM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 11:48 am, Shaun Everiss wrote:
>
> Ie every other bit of software I have used bar ms software does not have ribbons.
>
> Then you metaphorically "don't get around much anymore."   Ribbons are very common in many programs of "relatively recent" design.  There are menu-driven programs that were developed that way, but even these are now heading into Universal App interface design as they're being updated.of
>
> And it really doesn't matter, one whit, whether ribbons are common outside Windows or not.  They've been the defacto standard under Windows all the way back since the 2007 versions of Office were introduced and I think (though now I can't remember) are standard in Windows 7 functions like Windows Explorer, etc.
>
> None of us gets to choose the interface a software manufacturer goes with.  When they change there are several things you can do, one of those is resist and resist for well over a decade - which gets you absolutely nowhere when there's no chance of an interface ever going back to the menu driven one you (and I, for that matter) cut your teeth on.
>
> I also think that there is a lot of "what's too painful to remember, we simply choose to forget" at play here.  The multi-level menus of old on programs like Word, Excel, etc., were not in any way "intuitive."   There are just too many functions for "intuitive" to be possible.
>
> I recall hating the ribbon interface with a burning passion when it first came out because I already knew precisely how to access my "greatest hits list" either via point and click in menus or keyboard shortcuts.  I had to relearn all of this (or a great deal of it) and was not happy in any way, shape, or form.   After I did so, slowly but surely, it seemed no more difficult, but definitely no easier, either, than the menu system.  I still have to resort to using the help function and/or brute force searching for functions I need only once every several years and almost invariably they've been placed somewhere that is utterly unintuitive to me as far as being "where I'd look first."  This is for someone who's been using MS-Windows in all its iterations since the product first appeared on the market.
>






Re: problem reading mail

Gene
 

Brian sent a discussion of how to work with ribbons and I offered to send one I wrote and have sent to the list before.  Looking at both might be useful.  If doing so doesn't answer your questions or allow you to understand most or all of working with ribbons, you might want to buy something but purchasing something may well not be necessary. 
 
Gene
----- original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 6:22 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Hi,

The book is mainly about windows 7 and vista but there is a section about learning the ribbon.



-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Shaun Everiss
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 3:55 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Hmmm I will have to investigate in that book my wordprocessing course was done on office xp back in the day.
If there is a book on ribbons then I will buy and read it.



On 17/02/2017 11:34 a.m., Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
> Hi, Brian,
>
>
>
> I think what helped me learn about the ribbon interface was a book that I bought from National Braille Press. I also took a course on word processing through Hadley School for the Blind and there was a section on learning the ribbon in wordpad. I agree with you here. It's not about going backward but advancing.
>
>
>
> Rosemarie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 12:00 PM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 11:48 am, Shaun Everiss wrote:
>
> Ie every other bit of software I have used bar ms software does not have ribbons.
>
> Then you metaphorically "don't get around much anymore."   Ribbons are very common in many programs of "relatively recent" design.  There are menu-driven programs that were developed that way, but even these are now heading into Universal App interface design as they're being updated.of
>
> And it really doesn't matter, one whit, whether ribbons are common outside Windows or not.  They've been the defacto standard under Windows all the way back since the 2007 versions of Office were introduced and I think (though now I can't remember) are standard in Windows 7 functions like Windows Explorer, etc.
>
> None of us gets to choose the interface a software manufacturer goes with.  When they change there are several things you can do, one of those is resist and resist for well over a decade - which gets you absolutely nowhere when there's no chance of an interface ever going back to the menu driven one you (and I, for that matter) cut your teeth on.
>
> I also think that there is a lot of "what's too painful to remember, we simply choose to forget" at play here.  The multi-level menus of old on programs like Word, Excel, etc., were not in any way "intuitive."   There are just too many functions for "intuitive" to be possible.
>
> I recall hating the ribbon interface with a burning passion when it first came out because I already knew precisely how to access my "greatest hits list" either via point and click in menus or keyboard shortcuts.  I had to relearn all of this (or a great deal of it) and was not happy in any way, shape, or form.   After I did so, slowly but surely, it seemed no more difficult, but definitely no easier, either, than the menu system.  I still have to resort to using the help function and/or brute force searching for functions I need only once every several years and almost invariably they've been placed somewhere that is utterly unintuitive to me as far as being "where I'd look first."  This is for someone who's been using MS-Windows in all its iterations since the product first appeared on the market.
>







Re: problem reading mail

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Hi,

The book is mainly about windows 7 and vista but there is a section about learning the ribbon.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Shaun Everiss
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 3:55 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Hmmm I will have to investigate in that book my wordprocessing course was done on office xp back in the day.
If there is a book on ribbons then I will buy and read it.



On 17/02/2017 11:34 a.m., Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
Hi, Brian,



I think what helped me learn about the ribbon interface was a book that I bought from National Braille Press. I also took a course on word processing through Hadley School for the Blind and there was a section on learning the ribbon in wordpad. I agree with you here. It's not about going backward but advancing.



Rosemarie







From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 12:00 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail



On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 11:48 am, Shaun Everiss wrote:

Ie every other bit of software I have used bar ms software does not have ribbons.

Then you metaphorically "don't get around much anymore." Ribbons are very common in many programs of "relatively recent" design. There are menu-driven programs that were developed that way, but even these are now heading into Universal App interface design as they're being updated.of

And it really doesn't matter, one whit, whether ribbons are common outside Windows or not. They've been the defacto standard under Windows all the way back since the 2007 versions of Office were introduced and I think (though now I can't remember) are standard in Windows 7 functions like Windows Explorer, etc.

None of us gets to choose the interface a software manufacturer goes with. When they change there are several things you can do, one of those is resist and resist for well over a decade - which gets you absolutely nowhere when there's no chance of an interface ever going back to the menu driven one you (and I, for that matter) cut your teeth on.

I also think that there is a lot of "what's too painful to remember, we simply choose to forget" at play here. The multi-level menus of old on programs like Word, Excel, etc., were not in any way "intuitive." There are just too many functions for "intuitive" to be possible.

I recall hating the ribbon interface with a burning passion when it first came out because I already knew precisely how to access my "greatest hits list" either via point and click in menus or keyboard shortcuts. I had to relearn all of this (or a great deal of it) and was not happy in any way, shape, or form. After I did so, slowly but surely, it seemed no more difficult, but definitely no easier, either, than the menu system. I still have to resort to using the help function and/or brute force searching for functions I need only once every several years and almost invariably they've been placed somewhere that is utterly unintuitive to me as far as being "where I'd look first." This is for someone who's been using MS-Windows in all its iterations since the product first appeared on the market.


Re: problem reading mail

 

Hmmm I will have to investigate in that book my wordprocessing course was done on office xp back in the day.
If there is a book on ribbons then I will buy and read it.

On 17/02/2017 11:34 a.m., Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
Hi, Brian,



I think what helped me learn about the ribbon interface was a book that I bought from National Braille Press. I also took a course on word processing through Hadley School for the Blind and there was a section on learning the ribbon in wordpad. I agree with you here. It's not about going backward but advancing.



Rosemarie







From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 12:00 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail



On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 11:48 am, Shaun Everiss wrote:

Ie every other bit of software I have used bar ms software does not have ribbons.

Then you metaphorically "don't get around much anymore." Ribbons are very common in many programs of "relatively recent" design. There are menu-driven programs that were developed that way, but even these are now heading into Universal App interface design as they're being updated.of

And it really doesn't matter, one whit, whether ribbons are common outside Windows or not. They've been the defacto standard under Windows all the way back since the 2007 versions of Office were introduced and I think (though now I can't remember) are standard in Windows 7 functions like Windows Explorer, etc.

None of us gets to choose the interface a software manufacturer goes with. When they change there are several things you can do, one of those is resist and resist for well over a decade - which gets you absolutely nowhere when there's no chance of an interface ever going back to the menu driven one you (and I, for that matter) cut your teeth on.

I also think that there is a lot of "what's too painful to remember, we simply choose to forget" at play here. The multi-level menus of old on programs like Word, Excel, etc., were not in any way "intuitive." There are just too many functions for "intuitive" to be possible.

I recall hating the ribbon interface with a burning passion when it first came out because I already knew precisely how to access my "greatest hits list" either via point and click in menus or keyboard shortcuts. I had to relearn all of this (or a great deal of it) and was not happy in any way, shape, or form. After I did so, slowly but surely, it seemed no more difficult, but definitely no easier, either, than the menu system. I still have to resort to using the help function and/or brute force searching for functions I need only once every several years and almost invariably they've been placed somewhere that is utterly unintuitive to me as far as being "where I'd look first." This is for someone who's been using MS-Windows in all its iterations since the product first appeared on the market.


Re: problem reading mail

Gene
 

first, have you checked to make sure skim reading is still enabled?  The update may have incorrectly changed the setting.
 
If the command is still correct, you may wish to read my further comments out of interest but they will be unnecessary to try to find a work around for the problem.
I should change or perhaps correct something I said earlier.  this may not be an intended use of skim mode but it appears that it might do what you are describing.  That raises the possibility that the problem might be addressed by the developers.  It looks to me as though it is an unintended use of the feature but one that might be expected to work if skim reading is enabled.  Here is the description from the manual, which I just looked up.
If on, certain navigation commands (such as quick navigation in browse mode or moving by line or paragraph) do not stop Say All, rather Say All jumps to the new position and continues reading.
Assuming you didn't change any settings either in your e-mail program or in NVDA, say all should automatically start when you open a message.  What you are doing is using the move up by line command to try to move up a line when you can't.  NVDA interrupts whatever it was speaking and starts to read from the current line. 
 
While I understand why this worked in older versions, since it was very likely an unintended use of the command, I have no idea if the developers will try to restore the previous behavior if the command works correctly in general.  My suggestion of using the read to end command should work just as welland, since there is no question that it does what is expected, it will continue to work regardless of updates unless the command is incorrectly implemented in a later version.  And if it is, the developers would be expected to address the problem. 
 
I can't comment on using the laptop layout but if you set NVDA to use the caps lock as a modifier, using caps lock down arrow is not, in any meaningful sense, more difficult and I think you would quickly get used to the new command.  
 
It's better to use correct commands in general.  Incorrect commands may not work in all contexts and they may stop working, as in this context, with the possibility of restoration uncertain.
 
Gene  
----- Original Message -----

From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 9:09 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Whether it used to work or not, that isn't documented or expected behavior.  I have no idea if this might be restored or why the behavior has changed.  Simply issue the usual read to end command when you open a message.  I don't use thunderbird and I can't comment on this behavior stopping.  But I can tell you that when I was learning something about thunderbird a number of years ago, the way I got message bodies to read efficiently, that is without the subject line being read, was to use the read to end command in whatever screen-reader I was working with.  If the read to end command is inconvenient in whatever keyboard layout you are using, you may be able to make it far more convenient by doing something like having the caps lock key be an NVDA key.
 
You may have to experiment to see how long to wait after opening a message before issuing the command. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 8:49 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Hi Brian,

When I used nvda 2016.4 when I opened a message I hit the up arrow key to
stop the reading of the subject line.  In rc1 this no longer works.  Thanks
for any help.

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian's Mail list account
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 5:13 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Well I don't think that should happen at all. What happens if you use the
older version. I'd also advise against using a portable version on windows
10, it seldom works verywell.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Metzler " <gmtravel@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 7:13 PM
Subject: [nvda] problem reading mail


Hi All,

I just updated to nvda 2017.rc1.  I am using wlm as my mail client.  It used
to be when I open a message I would hit the up arrow key and nvda would
start reading the message.  Now, I have to hit the key for it to read the
message.  Also I hear the word pane is this the way it will be?  Thanks for
any help.Regards, Gary kn4ox


 




Re: problem reading mail

 

Gary,

        Does the issue you described "resolve itself" somewhat like it did in my case?  I'm just wondering if this is an annoyance that it's possible to get past and it doesn't recur again or can you make it happen each and every time you start up WLM 2012 or regain focus on the window?

        I'm not doubting that it doesn't occur, but if it can't be replicated then it can't be addressed.

P.S.  Thread drift happens.  It appears that the usual looping back to the original topic is occurring, too.
--
Brian

    I don't find an uninformed hatred a "principled position" that I need to respect in any way.

        ~ Ellen Evans, soc.motss, 11/6/2004



Re: problem reading mail

Gary Metzler <gmtravel@...>
 

Hi All,

I thought that hijacking someone eslses message thread was poor e mail edicate? My message had nothing to do with ribbins.

-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Metzler
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 5:49 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Hi Brian

I didn't make any changes to my wlm setup. This started happening when I
updated to rc1.


-----Original Message-----
From: Brian's Mail list account
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 11:19 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Has perhaps a parameter been added that needs to be ticked or umticked? I
had a quick look at this on another machine and could find no difference.
Its probably the way the email client was set up which has revealed this
change. Anyone?
Does not seem to affect Outlook express.
Do you use the preview pane? I always turn this off.

Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Metzler " <gmtravel@bellsouth.net>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 2:49 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail


Hi Brian,

When I used nvda 2016.4 when I opened a message I hit the up arrow key to stop the reading of the subject line. In rc1 this no longer works. Thanks for any help.

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian's Mail list account
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 5:13 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Well I don't think that should happen at all. What happens if you use the
older version. I'd also advise against using a portable version on windows
10, it seldom works verywell.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Metzler " <gmtravel@bellsouth.net>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 7:13 PM
Subject: [nvda] problem reading mail


Hi All,

I just updated to nvda 2017.rc1. I am using wlm as my mail client. It used
to be when I open a message I would hit the up arrow key and nvda would
start reading the message. Now, I have to hit the key for it to read the
message. Also I hear the word pane is this the way it will be? Thanks for
any help.Regards, Gary kn4ox







Re: problem reading mail

Gary Metzler <gmtravel@...>
 

Hi Brian V,
 
I am using wlm 2012 and I didn’t make any changes to my setup.  It worked fine in nvda 2016.4.
 

From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 12:06 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
 

Gary,

          Are you using WLM 2012?   Do you have the reading pane turned on or off?

          I have just had an instance where I started up WLM 2012 (and I have the reading pane turned on) where when I tabbed to the inbox list I got nothing but "pane" when it first landed on it and the focus was actually shown as on the whole pane itself rather than a message in the inbox  Once I tabbed then Shift+tabbed things went back to normal.

          I have not, as yet, been able to replicate that "entry behavior" when I shut down WLM 2012 and restart it.  I have not restarted my machine to see if that has anything to do with the "pane" announcement.

          It's a PITA when you encounter stuff like this but can't figure out how to "force the issue" again.  Developers can't fix something they can't make happen so that they can figure out why it's happening.  If you've experienced a pattern with when this happens that would be useful to know.
--
Brian

   I don't find an uninformed hatred a "principled position" that I need to respect in any way.

        ~ Ellen Evans, soc.motss, 11/6/2004

 


Re: problem reading mail

Gary Metzler <gmtravel@...>
 

Hi Brian

I didn't make any changes to my wlm setup. This started happening when I updated to rc1.

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian's Mail list account
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 11:19 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Has perhaps a parameter been added that needs to be ticked or umticked? I
had a quick look at this on another machine and could find no difference.
Its probably the way the email client was set up which has revealed this
change. Anyone?
Does not seem to affect Outlook express.
Do you use the preview pane? I always turn this off.

Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Metzler " <gmtravel@bellsouth.net>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 2:49 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail


Hi Brian,

When I used nvda 2016.4 when I opened a message I hit the up arrow key to stop the reading of the subject line. In rc1 this no longer works. Thanks for any help.

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian's Mail list account
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 5:13 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Well I don't think that should happen at all. What happens if you use the
older version. I'd also advise against using a portable version on windows
10, it seldom works verywell.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Metzler " <gmtravel@bellsouth.net>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 7:13 PM
Subject: [nvda] problem reading mail


Hi All,

I just updated to nvda 2017.rc1. I am using wlm as my mail client. It used
to be when I open a message I would hit the up arrow key and nvda would
start reading the message. Now, I have to hit the key for it to read the
message. Also I hear the word pane is this the way it will be? Thanks for
any help.Regards, Gary kn4ox







Re: problem reading mail

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Hi, Brian,

 

I think what helped me learn about the ribbon interface was a book that I bought from National Braille Press. I also took a course on word processing through Hadley School for the Blind and there was a section on learning the ribbon in wordpad. I agree with you here. It's not about going backward but advancing.

 

Rosemarie

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 12:00 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

 

On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 11:48 am, Shaun Everiss wrote:

Ie every other bit of software I have used bar ms software does not have ribbons.

Then you metaphorically "don't get around much anymore."   Ribbons are very common in many programs of "relatively recent" design.  There are menu-driven programs that were developed that way, but even these are now heading into Universal App interface design as they're being updated.of 

And it really doesn't matter, one whit, whether ribbons are common outside Windows or not.  They've been the defacto standard under Windows all the way back since the 2007 versions of Office were introduced and I think (though now I can't remember) are standard in Windows 7 functions like Windows Explorer, etc.

None of us gets to choose the interface a software manufacturer goes with.  When they change there are several things you can do, one of those is resist and resist for well over a decade - which gets you absolutely nowhere when there's no chance of an interface ever going back to the menu driven one you (and I, for that matter) cut your teeth on.

I also think that there is a lot of "what's too painful to remember, we simply choose to forget" at play here.  The multi-level menus of old on programs like Word, Excel, etc., were not in any way "intuitive."   There are just too many functions for "intuitive" to be possible.

I recall hating the ribbon interface with a burning passion when it first came out because I already knew precisely how to access my "greatest hits list" either via point and click in menus or keyboard shortcuts.  I had to relearn all of this (or a great deal of it) and was not happy in any way, shape, or form.   After I did so, slowly but surely, it seemed no more difficult, but definitely no easier, either, than the menu system.  I still have to resort to using the help function and/or brute force searching for functions I need only once every several years and almost invariably they've been placed somewhere that is utterly unintuitive to me as far as being "where I'd look first."  This is for someone who's been using MS-Windows in all its iterations since the product first appeared on the market.
--
Brian

    I don't find an uninformed hatred a "principled position" that I need to respect in any way.

        ~ Ellen Evans, soc.motss, 11/6/2004

 


Re: Shut Down, etc

Chris Mullins
 

Hi
After pressing tab you land on the navigation menu, I always press spacebar here to expand it before using the down arrow. An alternative way to get to the shutdown dialog is to press Windows+d to move to the desktop, then press tab to move to the start button. Now press the applications key then press u.

Cheers
Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Don H
Sent: 16 February 2017 21:12
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Shut Down, etc

Alt F4 always brings up a menu of shutdown and other options.

On 2/16/2017 3:00 PM, Ralph Boersema wrote:
Dear Folks,



My Windows 10 went through some kind of update and now my NVDA cannot
access the Power button for shutting down or restarting, etc. I open
the Start menu, using the Windows key, then go to Navegation, using
the tab key. With the down arrow I get down to the User Account
button, but then it won’t continue down to the Power button. Any suggestions?



Ralph


Re: Shut Down, etc

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

I use the alt F-4 method of shutting down. Both alt F-4 and windows x are fast.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Rui Fontes
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 1:34 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Shut Down, etc

In Windows 10 that don't work.

windows+X can be a good alternative.

Rui


-----Mensagem Original-----
De: P. Otter
Data: 16 de fevereiro de 2017 21:30
Para: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Assunto: Re: [nvda] Shut Down, etc


hello ralf,
when you're in the desktop, press the windows key.
after that press 2 times uparrow.
you hear shutdown or something, press enter there.
now you can make the choice restart or close the computer or the sleepmode.
succes!
paul o


----- Original Message -----
From: Ralph Boersema
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 10:00 PM
Subject: [nvda] Shut Down, etc


Dear Folks,



My Windows 10 went through some kind of update and now my NVDA cannot access
the Power button for shutting down or restarting, etc. I open the Start
menu, using the Windows key, then go to Navegation, using the tab key. With
the down arrow I get down to the User Account button, but then it won’t
continue down to the Power button. Any suggestions?



Ralph


Re: Shut Down, etc

Rui Fontes
 

In Windows 10 that don't work.

windows+X can be a good alternative.

Rui


-----Mensagem Original-----
De: P. Otter
Data: 16 de fevereiro de 2017 21:30
Para: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Assunto: Re: [nvda] Shut Down, etc


hello ralf,
when you're in the desktop, press the windows key.
after that press 2 times uparrow.
you hear shutdown or something, press enter there.
now you can make the choice restart or close the computer or the sleepmode.
succes!
paul o

----- Original Message -----
From: Ralph Boersema
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 10:00 PM
Subject: [nvda] Shut Down, etc


Dear Folks,



My Windows 10 went through some kind of update and now my NVDA cannot access the Power button for shutting down or restarting, etc. I open the Start menu, using the Windows key, then go to Navegation, using the tab key. With the down arrow I get down to the User Account button, but then it won’t continue down to the Power button. Any suggestions?



Ralph


Re: Shut Down, etc

P. Otter
 


hello ralf,
when you're in the desktop, press the windows key.
after that press 2 times uparrow.
you hear shutdown or something, press enter there.
now you can make the choice restart or close the computer or the sleepmode.
succes!
paul o
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 10:00 PM
Subject: [nvda] Shut Down, etc

Dear Folks,

 

My Windows 10 went through some kind of update and now my NVDA cannot access the Power button for shutting down or restarting, etc. I open the Start menu, using the Windows key, then go to Navegation, using the tab key. With the down arrow I get down to the User Account button, but then it won’t continue down to the Power button. Any suggestions?

 

Ralph


solved vocalizer issueRE: [nvda] Vocalize voices will not install

Bill Holton <bill32607@...>
 

Hi.

The product I purchased was for all screen readers.  Which means no plugin required.  They show up in the list of Microsoft voices.

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Chris
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 3:13 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Vocalize voices will not install

 

The name of the addon is code factory voices for nvda

If that addon is not in your manage addons then its not installed

If it is then something else is going on