Date   

Re: problem reading mail

Gary Metzler <gmtravel@...>
 

Hi All,

I thought that hijacking someone eslses message thread was poor e mail edicate? My message had nothing to do with ribbins.

-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Metzler
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 5:49 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Hi Brian

I didn't make any changes to my wlm setup. This started happening when I
updated to rc1.


-----Original Message-----
From: Brian's Mail list account
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 11:19 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Has perhaps a parameter been added that needs to be ticked or umticked? I
had a quick look at this on another machine and could find no difference.
Its probably the way the email client was set up which has revealed this
change. Anyone?
Does not seem to affect Outlook express.
Do you use the preview pane? I always turn this off.

Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Metzler " <gmtravel@bellsouth.net>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 2:49 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail


Hi Brian,

When I used nvda 2016.4 when I opened a message I hit the up arrow key to stop the reading of the subject line. In rc1 this no longer works. Thanks for any help.

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian's Mail list account
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 5:13 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Well I don't think that should happen at all. What happens if you use the
older version. I'd also advise against using a portable version on windows
10, it seldom works verywell.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Metzler " <gmtravel@bellsouth.net>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 7:13 PM
Subject: [nvda] problem reading mail


Hi All,

I just updated to nvda 2017.rc1. I am using wlm as my mail client. It used
to be when I open a message I would hit the up arrow key and nvda would
start reading the message. Now, I have to hit the key for it to read the
message. Also I hear the word pane is this the way it will be? Thanks for
any help.Regards, Gary kn4ox







Re: problem reading mail

Gary Metzler <gmtravel@...>
 

Hi Brian V,
 
I am using wlm 2012 and I didn’t make any changes to my setup.  It worked fine in nvda 2016.4.
 

From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 12:06 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
 

Gary,

          Are you using WLM 2012?   Do you have the reading pane turned on or off?

          I have just had an instance where I started up WLM 2012 (and I have the reading pane turned on) where when I tabbed to the inbox list I got nothing but "pane" when it first landed on it and the focus was actually shown as on the whole pane itself rather than a message in the inbox  Once I tabbed then Shift+tabbed things went back to normal.

          I have not, as yet, been able to replicate that "entry behavior" when I shut down WLM 2012 and restart it.  I have not restarted my machine to see if that has anything to do with the "pane" announcement.

          It's a PITA when you encounter stuff like this but can't figure out how to "force the issue" again.  Developers can't fix something they can't make happen so that they can figure out why it's happening.  If you've experienced a pattern with when this happens that would be useful to know.
--
Brian

   I don't find an uninformed hatred a "principled position" that I need to respect in any way.

        ~ Ellen Evans, soc.motss, 11/6/2004

 


Re: problem reading mail

Gary Metzler <gmtravel@...>
 

Hi Brian

I didn't make any changes to my wlm setup. This started happening when I updated to rc1.

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian's Mail list account
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 11:19 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Has perhaps a parameter been added that needs to be ticked or umticked? I
had a quick look at this on another machine and could find no difference.
Its probably the way the email client was set up which has revealed this
change. Anyone?
Does not seem to affect Outlook express.
Do you use the preview pane? I always turn this off.

Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Metzler " <gmtravel@bellsouth.net>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 2:49 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail


Hi Brian,

When I used nvda 2016.4 when I opened a message I hit the up arrow key to stop the reading of the subject line. In rc1 this no longer works. Thanks for any help.

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian's Mail list account
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 5:13 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Well I don't think that should happen at all. What happens if you use the
older version. I'd also advise against using a portable version on windows
10, it seldom works verywell.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Metzler " <gmtravel@bellsouth.net>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 7:13 PM
Subject: [nvda] problem reading mail


Hi All,

I just updated to nvda 2017.rc1. I am using wlm as my mail client. It used
to be when I open a message I would hit the up arrow key and nvda would
start reading the message. Now, I have to hit the key for it to read the
message. Also I hear the word pane is this the way it will be? Thanks for
any help.Regards, Gary kn4ox







Re: problem reading mail

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Hi, Brian,

 

I think what helped me learn about the ribbon interface was a book that I bought from National Braille Press. I also took a course on word processing through Hadley School for the Blind and there was a section on learning the ribbon in wordpad. I agree with you here. It's not about going backward but advancing.

 

Rosemarie

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 12:00 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

 

On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 11:48 am, Shaun Everiss wrote:

Ie every other bit of software I have used bar ms software does not have ribbons.

Then you metaphorically "don't get around much anymore."   Ribbons are very common in many programs of "relatively recent" design.  There are menu-driven programs that were developed that way, but even these are now heading into Universal App interface design as they're being updated.of 

And it really doesn't matter, one whit, whether ribbons are common outside Windows or not.  They've been the defacto standard under Windows all the way back since the 2007 versions of Office were introduced and I think (though now I can't remember) are standard in Windows 7 functions like Windows Explorer, etc.

None of us gets to choose the interface a software manufacturer goes with.  When they change there are several things you can do, one of those is resist and resist for well over a decade - which gets you absolutely nowhere when there's no chance of an interface ever going back to the menu driven one you (and I, for that matter) cut your teeth on.

I also think that there is a lot of "what's too painful to remember, we simply choose to forget" at play here.  The multi-level menus of old on programs like Word, Excel, etc., were not in any way "intuitive."   There are just too many functions for "intuitive" to be possible.

I recall hating the ribbon interface with a burning passion when it first came out because I already knew precisely how to access my "greatest hits list" either via point and click in menus or keyboard shortcuts.  I had to relearn all of this (or a great deal of it) and was not happy in any way, shape, or form.   After I did so, slowly but surely, it seemed no more difficult, but definitely no easier, either, than the menu system.  I still have to resort to using the help function and/or brute force searching for functions I need only once every several years and almost invariably they've been placed somewhere that is utterly unintuitive to me as far as being "where I'd look first."  This is for someone who's been using MS-Windows in all its iterations since the product first appeared on the market.
--
Brian

    I don't find an uninformed hatred a "principled position" that I need to respect in any way.

        ~ Ellen Evans, soc.motss, 11/6/2004

 


Re: Shut Down, etc

Chris Mullins
 

Hi
After pressing tab you land on the navigation menu, I always press spacebar here to expand it before using the down arrow. An alternative way to get to the shutdown dialog is to press Windows+d to move to the desktop, then press tab to move to the start button. Now press the applications key then press u.

Cheers
Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Don H
Sent: 16 February 2017 21:12
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Shut Down, etc

Alt F4 always brings up a menu of shutdown and other options.

On 2/16/2017 3:00 PM, Ralph Boersema wrote:
Dear Folks,



My Windows 10 went through some kind of update and now my NVDA cannot
access the Power button for shutting down or restarting, etc. I open
the Start menu, using the Windows key, then go to Navegation, using
the tab key. With the down arrow I get down to the User Account
button, but then it won’t continue down to the Power button. Any suggestions?



Ralph


Re: Shut Down, etc

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

I use the alt F-4 method of shutting down. Both alt F-4 and windows x are fast.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Rui Fontes
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 1:34 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Shut Down, etc

In Windows 10 that don't work.

windows+X can be a good alternative.

Rui


-----Mensagem Original-----
De: P. Otter
Data: 16 de fevereiro de 2017 21:30
Para: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Assunto: Re: [nvda] Shut Down, etc


hello ralf,
when you're in the desktop, press the windows key.
after that press 2 times uparrow.
you hear shutdown or something, press enter there.
now you can make the choice restart or close the computer or the sleepmode.
succes!
paul o


----- Original Message -----
From: Ralph Boersema
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 10:00 PM
Subject: [nvda] Shut Down, etc


Dear Folks,



My Windows 10 went through some kind of update and now my NVDA cannot access
the Power button for shutting down or restarting, etc. I open the Start
menu, using the Windows key, then go to Navegation, using the tab key. With
the down arrow I get down to the User Account button, but then it won’t
continue down to the Power button. Any suggestions?



Ralph


Re: Shut Down, etc

Rui Fontes
 

In Windows 10 that don't work.

windows+X can be a good alternative.

Rui


-----Mensagem Original-----
De: P. Otter
Data: 16 de fevereiro de 2017 21:30
Para: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Assunto: Re: [nvda] Shut Down, etc


hello ralf,
when you're in the desktop, press the windows key.
after that press 2 times uparrow.
you hear shutdown or something, press enter there.
now you can make the choice restart or close the computer or the sleepmode.
succes!
paul o

----- Original Message -----
From: Ralph Boersema
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 10:00 PM
Subject: [nvda] Shut Down, etc


Dear Folks,



My Windows 10 went through some kind of update and now my NVDA cannot access the Power button for shutting down or restarting, etc. I open the Start menu, using the Windows key, then go to Navegation, using the tab key. With the down arrow I get down to the User Account button, but then it won’t continue down to the Power button. Any suggestions?



Ralph


Re: Shut Down, etc

P. Otter
 


hello ralf,
when you're in the desktop, press the windows key.
after that press 2 times uparrow.
you hear shutdown or something, press enter there.
now you can make the choice restart or close the computer or the sleepmode.
succes!
paul o
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 10:00 PM
Subject: [nvda] Shut Down, etc

Dear Folks,

 

My Windows 10 went through some kind of update and now my NVDA cannot access the Power button for shutting down or restarting, etc. I open the Start menu, using the Windows key, then go to Navegation, using the tab key. With the down arrow I get down to the User Account button, but then it won’t continue down to the Power button. Any suggestions?

 

Ralph


solved vocalizer issueRE: [nvda] Vocalize voices will not install

Bill Holton <bill32607@...>
 

Hi.

The product I purchased was for all screen readers.  Which means no plugin required.  They show up in the list of Microsoft voices.

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Chris
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 3:13 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Vocalize voices will not install

 

The name of the addon is code factory voices for nvda

If that addon is not in your manage addons then its not installed

If it is then something else is going on

 

 

 


Re: Shut Down, etc

Don H
 

Alt F4 always brings up a menu of shutdown and other options.

On 2/16/2017 3:00 PM, Ralph Boersema wrote:
Dear Folks,



My Windows 10 went through some kind of update and now my NVDA cannot
access the Power button for shutting down or restarting, etc. I open the
Start menu, using the Windows key, then go to Navegation, using the tab
key. With the down arrow I get down to the User Account button, but then
it won’t continue down to the Power button. Any suggestions?



Ralph


Re: new to windows, need help with software selections

Kevin Cussick
 

Yes, it just sits in the system tray it just works.

On 16/02/2017 00:41, Dennis L wrote:
Does uncheckie just run in the backround?

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kevin Cussick via Groups.Io
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 4:48 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] new to windows, need help with software selections

Hi, next time download unchecky it is a little program that stops this
sort of thing from happening. I have found it invaluable.

On 15/02/2017 04:51, coffeekingms@hotmail.com wrote:
hi

Thanks for all your suggestions. I just installed the cdex software
using the link you provided. As a warning to all of you, if you do
install this software, you might need sighted help to uncheck the
option to install recommended software, because there seems to be no
accssible way to decline it. If you do install the cd ripper as it
wants, you'll get the following additional software

avast antivirus

bite fence antimalware

chromium

advanced pc care

stack player

and your homepage will be set to yahoo web search in your default
browser. I'm still puzzling over how to remove avast, since I can't
seem to click or simulate a left click on the uninstall button, NVDA
can't seem to route the mouse pointer to the uninstall button using
the caps lock plus kp devide shortcut, but the others were easily removed.
Despite all of this, I like cdex. I don't like the sneaky bundling of
software, and I'm rather shocked that open source software would stoop
to such a tactic. I'm not annoyed at anyone hear though, I want to
make that clear but at the extra installations. I am going to install
chrome and try it out, since I did like chromium in the few minutes I
played around with it.

Thanks

Kendell Clark



On 2/14/2017 9:32 PM, Quentin Christensen wrote:
Hi Kendell,

Welcome to Windows, and to the NVDA list!

CDex is a popular CD ripper: http://cdex.mu/ It looks up freedb and
others (you can set the one you want). I must admit I always just
rip to MP3 so I haven't looked into other formats with it. Just
looking at the features, you can set it to use OGG, FLAC, AAC, WMA
and other formats.

I'm not as familiar with downloading videos, or torrent programs I'm
afraid.

I tend to steer clear of driver downloaders - you just don't know
what they are downloading and I think most of them cause more
problems than they solve. Mostly I let Windows manage drivers and it
does do this a lot more autonomously than it used to. Sometimes it
is worth double checking you are using the manufacturer's driver,
though, particularly for audio and video drivers and in that case, I
usually go to the manufacturer's website.

I'm not sure about that file error you're getting. AMD will be your
processor and sys means it's a system file, possibly a driver, as you
seem to have guessed, but beyond that, I'm not sure. Is anything
happening immediately prior to it crashing? I did a google search on
the filename and got nothing (5 unrelated results) so whatever it is,
it's evidently not overly common.

Speaking of the Chrome browser, you'll actually find that it works
fairly well with NVDA if you do choose to install it. The popular
browser with NVDA has traditionally been Firefox, but it can be worth
keeping Chrome around just for the odd website that works better with
one than the other. Internet Explorer still works and still comes
with Windows, even Windows 10. If you are on Windows 10, we do
support the new browser "Edge", though personally, I'd still stick
with one of the others for the most part.

If you are after a word processor that isn't Microsoft Office (MS
Office works well with NVDA, but you asked about free), Jarte is a
standalone one: http://www.jarte.com/ otherwise, LibreOffice is a
full office suite: http://libreoffice.org/

If you used Audacity for audio editing on Linux, you'll find it is
available for Windows as well: http://www.audacityteam.org/

I can't think of what else to recommend off the top of my head, but
all the best with your migration and do let us know if you encounter
anything else you need help or a recommendation on.

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 2:04 PM, coffeekingms@hotmail.com
<mailto:coffeekingms@hotmail.com> <coffeekingms@hotmail.com
<mailto:coffeekingms@hotmail.com>> wrote:

hi all

I'm a bit ashamed to say this, but I've just switched from linux,
specifically sonar gnu linux, to windows 10 full time. There are many
reasons why and I won't go into them hear since this is the wrong
list,
but the windows blind community is just friendlier and much much less
prone to judge people based on what software they want to use, what
speech voice they want to use and so on. I was hoping you guys could
point me to some free as in price, and open source if possible,
software
to do the things I've gotten used to doing in linux. I'll provide
a list.

A cd ripper, preferably one that can look up info on cd databases, and
if such a thing exists, one that can look up data on audiobook cd's,
since the ones available for linux can't. It would be nice if it could
rip to opus or ogg vorbis files, preferably both, since I don't
care for
mp3 and use free to use media formats like ogg or opus for everything.
Something that can download videos from youtube, entire playlists if
possible. I've found youtube dl gui for this, but it leaves the video
and audio tracks separate, instead of combining them so I have to
manuallt delete them. An audio converter, so I can convert mp3,
m4b, etc
files into the formats I prefer to use. I've come across format
factory
and already wrote about it hear, but it doesn't seem to handle
opus so I
may need to use something else. I've just discovered kodi, the htpc
software. Can it handle using services such as spotify, pandora and
last.fm <http://last.fm>? I don't use any of these yet, but I'd
like to start, assuming
spotify and pandora are still free to use. Accessible torrent
software.
I've been usint q bittorrent, and it is usable but not very
accessible.
I want torrent software for legal things, not the pirate bay and such.
Even though I'm no longer using sonar I still want to support it's
torrent seeds, as well as other linux distro torrents such as
vinux and
fedora. Is there a good free program to keep drivers up to date? If
these are still needed. My computer is experiencing frequent bugcheck
screens from something called amdkfb.sys, and I thought maybe a free
driver updater would download an updated driver that would fix it.
Something that doesn't nag you to upgrade to a pro version would be
nice, and that can be run portable would be even better, but I don't
want to be picky. I'm only asking for all of these instead of doing my
own research because I'm frequently lead around in circles. Sites that
say a piece of software is free, when what they mean is free but comes
with extra stuff, free trial, or not free at all and they want you to
pay for it. Driver updaters that aren't accessible and often install
extras, such as pc care, pc cleaners, and the chrome browser. Are
there
good ways of avoiding these kinds of things? I'm new to windows after
being in linux for five years so I might as well be a first time
windows
user. Thanks for any help, I'll try not to ask for this much help
again.

Thanks

Kendell Clark








--
Quentin Christensen
Training Material Developer
Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now
available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Ph +61 7 3149 3306 <tel:%2B61%207%203149%203306> www.nvaccess.org
<http://www.nvaccess.org/>
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess




Re: Vocalize voices will not install

Bill Holton <bill32607@...>
 

Ot find the addin for the set of Vocalizer voices set for all screen readers.  The one I did find did not work.

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Chris
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 3:13 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Vocalize voices will not install

 

The name of the addon is code factory voices for nvda

If that addon is not in your manage addons then its not installed

If it is then something else is going on

 

 

 


Shut Down, etc

Ralph Boersema
 

Dear Folks,

 

My Windows 10 went through some kind of update and now my NVDA cannot access the Power button for shutting down or restarting, etc. I open the Start menu, using the Windows key, then go to Navegation, using the tab key. With the down arrow I get down to the User Account button, but then it won’t continue down to the Power button. Any suggestions?

 

Ralph


Re: Vocalize voices will not install

Chris
 

The name of the addon is code factory voices for nvda

If that addon is not in your manage addons then its not installed

If it is then something else is going on

 

 

 


Re: Adobe in Design

 

I know this is not exactly on topic for design but it is round the same thing so bare with me.
When I had university a while now, I got into an opperating systems class.
I had to use linux on a system, I was given a distribution and told to install it.
I also had to install a copy of windows on a drive.
Ofcause access wize the stuff that was round for the course wasn't.
So I simply talked through how I would install the oses, and the lecturer installed both oses on the drive and I got the credit.
He then tried to make linux accessible but no good.
This was back before I found about grml, so I carried round my windows computer for windows stuff, and an old 100 dollar piece of crap computer I got from a company who didn't want it anymore.
It had something on it, and I had a dectalk which I had to rythmically bash to get to work right every system startup and it lasted that way for 6 months.
In another case in a programming course I almost quit because the version of pascal they were using had no accessible program to use.
By chance I remembered a place where I had found something that was an interface which was and which at the time worked.
I was then able to finnish it.
Those courses had happy endings.
In the case of windows I couldn't use it on the university system with a lot of modifications and security and the like.
I had never used vmware, and if I ever did it again, I would ask if I could run things via vmware image.

On 17/02/2017 1:40 a.m., erik burggraaf wrote:
As I understand it this is a classroom situation. The students have to
use what the professor tells them they have to use.

Adobe in general is not a friend of accessibility, no matter how much
they sponsor NVDA. I haven't used these two applications and don't know
what work has been done, but it could really go either way. Hopefully
some one comes up with good information.

Erik

Sent with AquaMail for Android
http://www.aqua-mail.com


On February 16, 2017 7:28:50 AM "Richard Kuzma via Groups.Io"
<rmkuzma=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:

Hi there,
I used to do graphic design before I lost my sight and used both
indesign and quark.
They are both very graphical user interfaces.
I cant say that I have played with them and nvda,
But I cant imagin it very easy.
Why not use something like Microsoft word, or a word processor instead
that is not near as graphical.
Let me know if I can help any other way.
Rich

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
MAYANK SHARMA
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:48 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Adobe in Design

Hi everyone,

I'm doing a journalism course and am encouraged to learn to work with
adobe in design. Has anyone tried working on it with NVDA and if it is
possible to do so?
It is used to design layouts for newspapers. Also there's quarkXPress
that we use for designing.
Do tell me if it's not appropriate for this list.

Cheers

Mayank









.


Re: problem reading mail

 

On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 11:48 am, Shaun Everiss wrote:
Ie every other bit of software I have used bar ms software does not have ribbons.

Then you metaphorically "don't get around much anymore."   Ribbons are very common in many programs of "relatively recent" design.  There are menu-driven programs that were developed that way, but even these are now heading into Universal App interface design as they're being updated.of 

And it really doesn't matter, one whit, whether ribbons are common outside Windows or not.  They've been the defacto standard under Windows all the way back since the 2007 versions of Office were introduced and I think (though now I can't remember) are standard in Windows 7 functions like Windows Explorer, etc.

None of us gets to choose the interface a software manufacturer goes with.  When they change there are several things you can do, one of those is resist and resist for well over a decade - which gets you absolutely nowhere when there's no chance of an interface ever going back to the menu driven one you (and I, for that matter) cut your teeth on.

I also think that there is a lot of "what's too painful to remember, we simply choose to forget" at play here.  The multi-level menus of old on programs like Word, Excel, etc., were not in any way "intuitive."   There are just too many functions for "intuitive" to be possible.

I recall hating the ribbon interface with a burning passion when it first came out because I already knew precisely how to access my "greatest hits list" either via point and click in menus or keyboard shortcuts.  I had to relearn all of this (or a great deal of it) and was not happy in any way, shape, or form.   After I did so, slowly but surely, it seemed no more difficult, but definitely no easier, either, than the menu system.  I still have to resort to using the help function and/or brute force searching for functions I need only once every several years and almost invariably they've been placed somewhere that is utterly unintuitive to me as far as being "where I'd look first."  This is for someone who's been using MS-Windows in all its iterations since the product first appeared on the market.
--
Brian

    I don't find an uninformed hatred a "principled position" that I need to respect in any way.

        ~ Ellen Evans, soc.motss, 11/6/2004



Re: problem reading mail

 

No one said that blind people don't use ribbons but I can't say I get any joy out of using them, or what microsoft sees, unless I am totally dumb just about every program I have granted some of them are old have not any ribbons at all.

On 17/02/2017 5:42 a.m., Gene wrote:
It's not a question of bait. You didn't say clearly that you were expressing your opinion. You didn't indicate that many people are using the later version. If you had said something like, I don't use the later version because I don't like ribbons, that would have been one thing. If you had said that many blind people use the program but you don't for this or that reason, that would have been a fair statement. But your statement could far too easily be misinterpreted as saying that the later version is unuseable. If you make such ambiguous statements, then I comment on them because you are writing in such a way that many people may interpret what you say as a general statement that the program is unuseable. Just saying the phrase "to me" and then saying that a program is unuseable because it has ribbons is too easy to be misinterpreted unless you are more clear in your explanation of what you mean.

And while many blind people don't like ribbons, many blind people use ribbons regularly and use the new version of the program.

I don't care which version people use. I care about statements that are easily misinterpreted and that may cause people considering what program and version to use to believe that a program is unuseable when that is far from the case.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Brian's Mail list account
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 10:17 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail


Well I'm not rising to your bait. I meerely present what is not an uncommon
view amongst blind users of windows.

Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@ripco.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 1:12 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail


What do you mean the only useable one. You mean the only one you liked
because you hate ribbons. That is different than the only useable one. The
later version is perfectly useable. If you are willing to use ribbons, it
is just as useable as the old version.

Microsoft doesn't provide the installer for the old version any longer but
the full installer for the old version is available from individuals who
have it. I have it and I expect other list members have it as well.

Outlook Express in the version that has been modified to work in Windows 7
and higher works well for some people and not for others.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Gene----- Original Message -----
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian's Mail list account
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:29 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail


I think it happens on Windows Live mail but there are a number of different
versions knocking around. To me the only usable one was the version using
old style menus, which microsoft now seems to have removed as a download and
the version is always asking to update or to go over tto the latest app. I
don't think the app in 10 has support for Usenet so I'm loathe to do that
change, and in any case Outlook express with the files that emulate the old
html etc displays of xp seems to owork well and I do not begrudge the 20 Eu
it costs for three keys at all as the guy is very helpful.
This will do me for years unless nobody does pop3 email any more.
Brian

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Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Quentin Christensen" <quentin@nvaccess.org>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 10:36 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail


Hi Gary,

I must admit I haven't been using the mail app much. I just had a look
and
found a couple of times it opened the message and I had to press NVDA+down
arrow to read, but most time (even on the same messages), it read fine.

Would love to get some more info if anyone else is experiencing this (or
not) and particularly if anyone can better pin down exactly when it does
and doesn't read automatically?

Regards

Quentin.

On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 6:13 AM, Gary Metzler <gmtravel@bellsouth.net>
wrote:

Hi All,

I just updated to nvda 2017.rc1. I am using wlm as my mail client. It
used to be when I open a message I would hit the up arrow key and nvda
would start reading the message. Now, I have to hit the key for it to
read
the message. Also I hear the word pane is this the way it will be?
Thanks
for any help.Regards, Gary kn4ox



--
Quentin Christensen
Training Material Developer
Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available:
http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Ph +61 7 3149 3306
www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess






Re: problem reading mail

 

Gene,

          I just tried the restart system, followed by firing up NVDA 2017.RC1, fire up WLM 2012 and got a behavior that was different than I did the last time (or at least what I recall because I got no announcement of "pane" and I absolutely know I did previously.

This time NVDA announced the WLM 2012 splash screen, the main window opened and NVDA said "English, US" and nothing else and there appeared to be no NVDA focus on anything.  When I then hit a single tab it placed me on the reading pane for the message in the inbox that was shown as having focus and began reading it from top to bottom.  If I shift+tabbed back to the inbox message list I had focus on the message in the inbox.

The last time I did this I might have fired up WLM 2012 before NVDA, so that's the next attempt.  But whatever I did I know that when I hit tab to go to the inbox the NVDA add-on that shows you what it's got focus on had a red square around the whole inbox area and announced "pane."  How to make that recur again is the question.

Since I'm not an actual NVDA user from a "this is how I access my computer" perspective my entry points into NVDA and individual programs probably differ between invocations of NVDA, the programs, or both much more than someone who has a "keyboard routine" might - though that's pure speculation on my part.

--
Brian

    I don't find an uninformed hatred a "principled position" that I need to respect in any way.

        ~ Ellen Evans, soc.motss, 11/6/2004



Re: problem reading mail

 

Actually what really gets my goat is that bar microsoft ribbons are not the industry standard.
Ie every other bit of software I have used bar ms software does not have ribbons.
We will just have to download system hacking tools to turn it off.
Issue is with windows updating itself we will have to rerun these hack tools every month.
This is not what I hoped.
Yes I can manage the ribbon for a few things but I still can't do a select all as such in explorer, replace multiple files at once without a tedious copy past op hitting alt y or space a bunch of times, etc.
I have managed to load the right sequences in office I need to do my job which is to say update office and check for mail in outlook but I can't say I have mastered ribbons either.
Its why I am still on win7 and will while I have a legal coppy continue.
Ofcause if ms doesn't improve, I will have to decide if I continue to stay legal and get an older computer with win7 or not.
Or simply get a win10 computer for the net, and a win7 or heck windows xp system so I can do everything else that doesn't need me to be online.
I was hoping ms would realise that ribbons are just what it thinks they have not caught on like they thought.
And I think we should have theo ption to run ribbons in office and windows or just menus as normal.

On 17/02/2017 6:28 a.m., Ron Canazzi wrote:
...and while I respect Gene for most issues, when ever he has said in
the past that ribbons are easy once you get used to them, and I ask
about just how to use them in Excel--he or any of the other 'get on the
ball blinky' advocates of ribbons have no clue as to how to answer me.
I have some basic shortcuts I have been given by those forced to use the
newer Excel and Access version, but that's about it. None who use
ribbons for complex suite such as Office do anything other than memorize
shortcuts to achieve basic functions. Fortunately some of the older
ones such as Control + S for save and alt + F, A for save as still work,
but having real command of ribbons in complex programs still alludes
most blind people.



On 2/16/2017 11:17 AM, Brian's Mail list account wrote:
Well I'm not rising to your bait. I meerely present what is not an
uncommon view amongst blind users of windows.

Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@ripco.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 1:12 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail


What do you mean the only useable one. You mean the only one you
liked because you hate ribbons. That is different than the only
useable one. The later version is perfectly useable. If you are
willing to use ribbons, it is just as useable as the old version.

Microsoft doesn't provide the installer for the old version any longer
but the full installer for the old version is available from
individuals who have it. I have it and I expect other list members
have it as well.

Outlook Express in the version that has been modified to work in
Windows 7 and higher works well for some people and not for others.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Gene----- Original Message -----
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian's Mail list account
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:29 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail


I think it happens on Windows Live mail but there are a number of
different
versions knocking around. To me the only usable one was the version using
old style menus, which microsoft now seems to have removed as a
download and
the version is always asking to update or to go over tto the latest
app. I
don't think the app in 10 has support for Usenet so I'm loathe to do that
change, and in any case Outlook express with the files that emulate
the old
html etc displays of xp seems to owork well and I do not begrudge the
20 Eu
it costs for three keys at all as the guy is very helpful.
This will do me for years unless nobody does pop3 email any more.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Quentin Christensen"
<quentin@nvaccess.org>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 10:36 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail


Hi Gary,

I must admit I haven't been using the mail app much. I just had a look
and
found a couple of times it opened the message and I had to press
NVDA+down
arrow to read, but most time (even on the same messages), it read fine.

Would love to get some more info if anyone else is experiencing this (or
not) and particularly if anyone can better pin down exactly when it does
and doesn't read automatically?

Regards

Quentin.

On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 6:13 AM, Gary Metzler <gmtravel@bellsouth.net>
wrote:

Hi All,

I just updated to nvda 2017.rc1. I am using wlm as my mail client. It
used to be when I open a message I would hit the up arrow key and nvda
would start reading the message. Now, I have to hit the key for it to
read
the message. Also I hear the word pane is this the way it will be?
Thanks
for any help.Regards, Gary kn4ox



--
Quentin Christensen
Training Material Developer
Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now
available:
http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Ph +61 7 3149 3306
www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess







Re: problem reading mail

Jacques <lists4js@...>
 

For what its worth, if Allow skim reading in Say All is checked in the NVDA keyboard dialogue, pressing up arrow as soon as the message is opened will set read to end in motion and read the message body top to bottom, if indeed so desired. Pressing delete key, the above-mentioned procedure will read the next message body without reading the header information.

 

Please make sure if the above-mentioned checkbox indeed is checked, else this approach obviously wont work. If memory serves, it is unchecked by default after a clean installation. I am running the latest RC and do not experience this behaving differently compared to previous builds.

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, 16 February 2017 17:10
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

 

Whether it used to work or not, that isn't documented or expected behavior.  I have no idea if this might be restored or why the behavior has changed.  Simply issue the usual read to end command when you open a message.  I don't use thunderbird and I can't comment on this behavior stopping.  But I can tell you that when I was learning something about thunderbird a number of years ago, the way I got message bodies to read efficiently, that is without the subject line being read, was to use the read to end command in whatever screen-reader I was working with.  If the read to end command is inconvenient in whatever keyboard layout you are using, you may be able to make it far more convenient by doing something like having the caps lock key be an NVDA key.

 

You may have to experiment to see how long to wait after opening a message before issuing the command. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 8:49 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

 

Hi Brian,

When I used nvda 2016.4 when I opened a message I hit the up arrow key to
stop the reading of the subject line.  In rc1 this no longer works.  Thanks
for any help.

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian's Mail list account
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 5:13 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Well I don't think that should happen at all. What happens if you use the
older version. I'd also advise against using a portable version on windows
10, it seldom works verywell.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Metzler " <gmtravel@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 7:13 PM
Subject: [nvda] problem reading mail


Hi All,

I just updated to nvda 2017.rc1.  I am using wlm as my mail client.  It used
to be when I open a message I would hit the up arrow key and nvda would
start reading the message.  Now, I have to hit the key for it to read the
message.  Also I hear the word pane is this the way it will be?  Thanks for
any help.Regards, Gary kn4ox