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Re: Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work

Ron Canazzi
 

Thanks very much for this valuable information.  Boy this is just what I need!



On 2/18/2017 3:21 AM, Quentin Christensen wrote:
Hi Ron,

You are correct, and it is definitely a bug in Office (It works exactly the same with no screen reader running).  I have found one workaround, which is when you hear NVDA read "split button", you know the option opens a menu.  While enter or space should work, if you press alt+down arrow, it does open the menu.

Re items on the home ribbon, I have always had a bit of a concern with the Home ribbon.  After all, items on the other ribbons are more or less logical (there are a few, ok a lot, you could argue, but bear with me) - the Home ribbon, however, is purely what Microsoft THINK people need access to more regularly.

I couldn't understand why half the Word home ribbon was taken up with Styles when Word 2007 came out - after all, a good portion of Word users still likely couldn't tell you what styles are, let alone use them.

Back to inserting rows and columns specifically, and I can give you another way to do that as well:

CONTROL+SHIFT+= (CONTROL, SHIFT and EQUALS) or CONTROL+PLUS.

If you have one or more full rows selected (SHIFT+SPACEBAR btw) when you press this, it will automatically insert one or more rows above the selected rows (same number of rows as you have selected).

If you have one or more full columns selected (CONTROL+SPACEBAR for that one), then it inserts columns.

If you don't have a full row or column selected, it will open a dialog asking whether you want to shift cells right, shift cells down, insert a row or insert a column.

(Note that those are all Excel commands, there is nothing specific to NVDA there.)

Here endeth the lesson :)  All this and more will be in the Microsoft Excel with NVDA training module, which will be available later this year.

Regards

Quentin.

On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 5:37 PM, Ron Canazzi <aa2vm@...> wrote:
Hi Group,


I have started a new thread on this ribbon business since some have complained that the other thread had drifted away from the original intent.


Here's one big issue with ribbons and Excel.

If one wants to insert a structural element of a work book such as a row, column area or sheet, one cannot do this by navigating the ribbons.  The short cut which I will describe does work, but this was given to me by someone who figured it out with sighted help.


First of all, try looking for the items under the insert portion of the ribbon.  They simply aren't there.  Then via experimentation and observation, you find a separate insert item under the home portion of the ribbon under general.  There's a problem, if you simply navigate to the insert item, and press either enter or space bar, nothing happens.  somehow if you use the shortcut alt + h, I, you do get a list of items.  You can then pick the desired item and press enter and follow the prompts or whatever.  If you don't know the designated shortcut sequence, you simply can't find this item and get it to work with screen readers: JAWS or NVDA.


I know I have seen this in other Microsoft programs such as Access and Power Point as well.


I'm sorry folks, using ribbons does not give full access to screen reader users in many programs as we used to have under the standard drop down or pull down menus.


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"







--
Quentin Christensen
Training Material Developer
Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 

--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"
Re: NVDA Accessible Database Software

Jacob Kruger
 

Really depends on platform, database engine/format, etc. etc.


As in, what do you want to use the data for, do with it, etc.?


Ask since I am, primarily, a web application developer, working with PHP, MySQL, etc., and, for MySQL, besides working directly with the console/command line, I use the single-web-page admin interface, adminer, but, that runs against a localised dev. web server running here on my machine, either under XAMPP or WAMP web server implementations.


If you're talking about something similar to microsoft access database interface, which is accessible, then am not too sure about that side of it, but, what about something under iether oepnOffice or libreOffice?


And, haven't checked out MS Accessess myself for quite a long while, but, do at times work with excel spreadsheets?


Stay well


Jacob Kruger
Blind Biker
Skype: BlindZA
"Resistance is futile, but, acceptance is versatile..."

On 2017-02-18 12:15, Carlos wrote:
Hello All!

I know that this question has come up on list many times.

I would like to be able to create/process database files.

Is there any database software paid/free that is accessible with NVDA? I know that database software is so graphical in its nature that its controls are not accessible to screen readers! But, there has to be a way for the blind to be able to use database software for work/home purposes?

Hopefully, since the last time this question was asked someone has actually found NVDA database accessible software? Or, accessible database software that is accessible in any other screen reader?

Thank You! For all your recommendations!!!
Re: Adobe in Design

Gene
 

This may be my last message in the thread.  I may have said all I have to say on the subject and I don't want to be repetitious.  However, this discussion may be more than academic for reasons I will make clear later in this message.  Others may wish to comment on whether they have had difficulties by not learning ribbons as I suggest may be the case for some or perhaps many people.
 
I also want to make it clear that I am not trying to convince anyone to like ribbons.  Nor am I trying to convince anyone that either menus or ribbons are superior.  I'm saying that if you use ribbons, either by choice or necessity, if you think about them differently, you may find them easier, perhaps much easier, to use.  Different people have harder or easier times picturing or understanding the layout of different structures.  Someone may find it easier to understand the layout of menus and more difficult to understand that of ribbons.  I'm not assuming or saying that they can't understand the structure.  While it's a good idea to try to understand the structure of ribbons, simply remembering the rote rule that you tab and shift tab through a ribbon instead of up and down arrowing, may make them much easier to work with if you try but find understanding the structure difficult.  And I'm also saying that different organization doesn't mean they are better or worse.  It may be a matter of getting used to the other way or to learn how to use ribbons without worrying so much about organization if you have difficulty understanding the categories or groups organization.  That's one reason I discussed use of short cut sequences or, as they are properly called in ribbons, key tips. 
 
I'm also trying to discourage dismissing ribbons just because they are different and, perhaps, because you've heard and read so many disparaging comments about them.  An important reason so many people disparage ribbons may be because they weren't properly instructed in their use.  No matter how many people believe something, that doesn't mean they are right.  A lot of the beliefs or attitudes you see regarding this subject may well arise from improper or inadequate instruction. 
 
And if you resist ribbons, you may find at some point that it comes back to bite you.  I don't know this.  I haven't discussed this with people but I suspect that some people who refuse to give ribbons a fair try, end up in jobs or potential employment situations where this becomes a problem.  In short, I'm saying to seek out good learning sources, don't form preconclusions, and try ribbons without immediately trying to get around them by using programs that eliminate them. 
 
If you are convinced that you will never benefit from ribbons, then you may be able to avoid them without negative consequences.  But here again, do those using Windows 10 loose access to items they would benefit from by using software that removes ribbons?  How about those using such software in Microsoft Office?  I don't know.  I haven't used such utilities.  I'm simply saying that the almost reflexive avoidance of ribbons may come back to bite you unless you really know these things when making a decision. 
 
I don't consider this just an academic discussion.  It may have real implications for some or many people.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 5:13 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Adobe in Design

To correct an error, I referred in the below message to the paste group.  I should have referred to the clipboard group or category.  there is no paste group.  Copy and paste related commands are found in the clipboard group.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 4:49 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Adobe in Design

All that has to be known is that you tab and shift tab instead of left and right arrowing.  As for categories, in ribbons versus organization in menus, why, in many programs, is the options dialog found in the tools menu?  Why in others is it or something similar found in the edit menu?  If you can't find something by moving through just categories, you go through the entire ribbon.  And I just thought of another illogical and arbitrary use of placement in menus.  Why is update often located in the help menu?  Why isn't it in the tools menu?  I have never seen.  My guess is that ribbons have the items extend from left to right and that tabbing and shift tabbing moves me across a ribbon.  But even if I had no picture at all of the layout, all I would have to know is one very simple rule.  Tab through a ribbon to move forward.  Shift tab to move backward.  It's nice to have an idea of the layout but hardly necessary. 
 
Different people use ribbons in different ways.  I don't pay much attention to categories.  I look through entire ribbons when familiarizing myself with a new program.  I look through all menus when familiarizing myself with an unfamiliar menu program.  I'm not particularly interested in categories in a ribbon such as paste group.  It's useful to keep some of these in mind but not necessary.  I'm interested in the actual items and the short cut key sequences for those I intend to use regularly. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 3:48 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Adobe in Design

I think the point people are making is that somehow the concept needs to be
gotten to the blind person who by default tends to see the world as up and
down a page.
 If you have had sight in the past then you have a head start of course.
 Brian

bglists@...
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Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "MAYANK SHARMA" <mayanks2010@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 6:18 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Adobe in Design


> Hi.
>
> It's not so much as a requirement for the college, but It's really
> handy to know the skill for designing when I go into the media
> industry That's smething something an employer would look for to put
> it in another way. If I can achieve the same with another software,
> that would work too. The purpose is to be able to design newspaper
> layouts.
> But it is true that this is a graphical software to be using.
>
> Cheers
>
> Mayank
>
>
> On 2/16/17, Richard Kuzma via Groups.Io <rmkuzma@...> wrote:
>> Ok, then,
>> Is the instructor and college or agency willing to give you a reasonable
>> accomadation since you are blind?
>> Might just want to put that out there in a nice way to see what happens.
>> Maybe they will make an exception for you.
>> If not, maybe I can load indesign here and see what I can figure out.
>> I am so behind on their version and so on, so you might have to refresh
>> my
>> memory.
>> Or, better yet,
>> If you have it on your system, maybe we coult to a nvda remote and try it
>> out.
>> Let me know if I can hep any way.
>> Rich
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of erik
>> burggraaf
>> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 7:41 AM
>> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>> Subject: Re: [nvda] Adobe in Design
>>
>> As I understand it this is a classroom situation.  The students have to
>> use
>>
>> what the professor tells them they have to use.
>>
>> Adobe in general is not a friend of accessibility, no matter how much
>> they
>> sponsor NVDA.  I haven't used these two applications and don't know what
>> work has been done, but it could really go either way.  Hopefully some
>> one
>> comes up with good information.
>>
>> Erik
>>
>> Sent with AquaMail for Android
>> http://www.aqua-mail.com
>>
>>
>> On February 16, 2017 7:28:50 AM "Richard Kuzma via Groups.Io"
>> <rmkuzma@...> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi there,
>>> I used to do graphic design before I lost my sight and used both
>>> indesign
>>>
>>> and quark.
>>> They are both very graphical user interfaces.
>>> I cant say that I have played with them and nvda,
>>> But I cant imagin it very easy.
>>> Why not use something like Microsoft word, or a word processor instead
>> that
>>> is not near as graphical.
>>> Let me know if I can help any other way.
>>> Rich
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
>>> MAYANK
>>
>>> SHARMA
>>> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:48 AM
>>> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>>> Subject: [nvda] Adobe in Design
>>>
>>> Hi everyone,
>>>
>>> I'm doing a journalism course and am encouraged to learn to work with
>>> adobe in design. Has anyone tried working on it with NVDA and if it is
>>> possible to do so?
>>> It is used to design layouts for newspapers. Also there's quarkXPress
>>> that we use for designing.
>>> Do tell me if it's not appropriate for this list.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>>> Mayank
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>



Re: Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work

Quentin Christensen
 

Actually,

Thinking on it a bit further, and looking back at the ribbon in Word and Excel, the key word is "split button".  A split button, visually, is a button where you activate the main part of it to do the most common action.  An arrow coming off the right side opens a menu of other related options.  The most common example of a split button is the start menu item for a program such as Word in Windows 7.  When you arrow to Word in the start menu in Windows 7, you can either press ENTER to go into a blank document (or the backstage) in Word.  Alternatively, you can press the right arrow to open a "jump list" of recent documents you have used in Word.

Insert, Delete and Format cells in Excel are setup the same way.  When you press ENTER on the insert button, for me it inserts a cell and pushes the rest down.  If I have multiple cells selected, it inserts multiple cells, pushing either right or down, depending on what was selected.

Merge and Centre, Font Colour, Accounting number format, and sum all do the same thing on the home ribbon in Excel,  They all have an action they perform if you activate them, and a list of related actions you can get to if you alt+down arrow on them.  It might not be obvious, but there you go.

Regards

Quentin.

On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 9:46 PM, Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...> wrote:
However playing devils advocate a little here, can one be sure that the original menu version of this worked or did it only work via mouse selection or direct shortcut?
This sounds to me like an issue with the software in that the keyboard action of getting the dialogue or whatever to focus enough to get at the options simply won't work in that case. As such it needs to be sorted by Microsoft if it has Jaws and nvda giving similar results.
Its not that the function is not there, it is, but in an illogical place and seemingly not  selectable from the ribbon route, only by mouse or keyboard shortcuts.
Brian

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Please address personal email to:-
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----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Canazzi" <aa2vm@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 6:37 AM
Subject: [nvda] Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work


Hi Group,


I have started a new thread on this ribbon business since some have complained that the other thread had drifted away from the original intent.


Here's one big issue with ribbons and Excel.

If one wants to insert a structural element of a work book such as a row, column area or sheet, one cannot do this by navigating the ribbons.  The short cut which I will describe does work, but this was given to me by someone who figured it out with sighted help.


First of all, try looking for the items under the insert portion of the ribbon.  They simply aren't there.  Then via experimentation and observation, you find a separate insert item under the home portion of the ribbon under general.  There's a problem, if you simply navigate to the insert item, and press either enter or space bar, nothing happens. somehow if you use the shortcut alt + h, I, you do get a list of items. You can then pick the desired item and press enter and follow the prompts or whatever.  If you don't know the designated shortcut sequence, you simply can't find this item and get it to work with screen readers: JAWS or NVDA.


I know I have seen this in other Microsoft programs such as Access and Power Point as well.


I'm sorry folks, using ribbons does not give full access to screen reader users in many programs as we used to have under the standard drop down or pull down menus.


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"











--
Quentin Christensen
Training Material Developer
Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 
Re: Adobe in Design

Gene
 

To correct an error, I referred in the below message to the paste group.  I should have referred to the clipboard group or category.  there is no paste group.  Copy and paste related commands are found in the clipboard group.
 

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 4:49 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Adobe in Design

All that has to be known is that you tab and shift tab instead of left and right arrowing.  As for categories, in ribbons versus organization in menus, why, in many programs, is the options dialog found in the tools menu?  Why in others is it or something similar found in the edit menu?  If you can't find something by moving through just categories, you go through the entire ribbon.  And I just thought of another illogical and arbitrary use of placement in menus.  Why is update often located in the help menu?  Why isn't it in the tools menu?  I have never seen.  My guess is that ribbons have the items extend from left to right and that tabbing and shift tabbing moves me across a ribbon.  But even if I had no picture at all of the layout, all I would have to know is one very simple rule.  Tab through a ribbon to move forward.  Shift tab to move backward.  It's nice to have an idea of the layout but hardly necessary. 
 
Different people use ribbons in different ways.  I don't pay much attention to categories.  I look through entire ribbons when familiarizing myself with a new program.  I look through all menus when familiarizing myself with an unfamiliar menu program.  I'm not particularly interested in categories in a ribbon such as paste group.  It's useful to keep some of these in mind but not necessary.  I'm interested in the actual items and the short cut key sequences for those I intend to use regularly. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 3:48 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Adobe in Design

I think the point people are making is that somehow the concept needs to be
gotten to the blind person who by default tends to see the world as up and
down a page.
 If you have had sight in the past then you have a head start of course.
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "MAYANK SHARMA" <mayanks2010@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 6:18 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Adobe in Design


> Hi.
>
> It's not so much as a requirement for the college, but It's really
> handy to know the skill for designing when I go into the media
> industry That's smething something an employer would look for to put
> it in another way. If I can achieve the same with another software,
> that would work too. The purpose is to be able to design newspaper
> layouts.
> But it is true that this is a graphical software to be using.
>
> Cheers
>
> Mayank
>
>
> On 2/16/17, Richard Kuzma via Groups.Io <rmkuzma@...> wrote:
>> Ok, then,
>> Is the instructor and college or agency willing to give you a reasonable
>> accomadation since you are blind?
>> Might just want to put that out there in a nice way to see what happens.
>> Maybe they will make an exception for you.
>> If not, maybe I can load indesign here and see what I can figure out.
>> I am so behind on their version and so on, so you might have to refresh
>> my
>> memory.
>> Or, better yet,
>> If you have it on your system, maybe we coult to a nvda remote and try it
>> out.
>> Let me know if I can hep any way.
>> Rich
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of erik
>> burggraaf
>> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 7:41 AM
>> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>> Subject: Re: [nvda] Adobe in Design
>>
>> As I understand it this is a classroom situation.  The students have to
>> use
>>
>> what the professor tells them they have to use.
>>
>> Adobe in general is not a friend of accessibility, no matter how much
>> they
>> sponsor NVDA.  I haven't used these two applications and don't know what
>> work has been done, but it could really go either way.  Hopefully some
>> one
>> comes up with good information.
>>
>> Erik
>>
>> Sent with AquaMail for Android
>> http://www.aqua-mail.com
>>
>>
>> On February 16, 2017 7:28:50 AM "Richard Kuzma via Groups.Io"
>> <rmkuzma@...> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi there,
>>> I used to do graphic design before I lost my sight and used both
>>> indesign
>>>
>>> and quark.
>>> They are both very graphical user interfaces.
>>> I cant say that I have played with them and nvda,
>>> But I cant imagin it very easy.
>>> Why not use something like Microsoft word, or a word processor instead
>> that
>>> is not near as graphical.
>>> Let me know if I can help any other way.
>>> Rich
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
>>> MAYANK
>>
>>> SHARMA
>>> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:48 AM
>>> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>>> Subject: [nvda] Adobe in Design
>>>
>>> Hi everyone,
>>>
>>> I'm doing a journalism course and am encouraged to learn to work with
>>> adobe in design. Has anyone tried working on it with NVDA and if it is
>>> possible to do so?
>>> It is used to design layouts for newspapers. Also there's quarkXPress
>>> that we use for designing.
>>> Do tell me if it's not appropriate for this list.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>>> Mayank
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>



Ccleaner and older computers

Brian's Mail list account
 

I know there are many readers here still using xp on old machines containing amd Athlon and Sempron processors. These still can work well if non demanding things are done on them.
However these processors do not have the SSE 2 instruction set, having a proprietary one of amd called 3D Now instead
Firefox after version 48 will not install on these machines but at least there is a friendly message telling you this, unlike versions of Dropbox after 13.
a new addition to the won't run list appears to be Ccleaner but its not actually going to warn you. It you just comes up with the normal if you were in the middle of something error instead after you install it. Be sure if you are going to do an update, to have an installer from the last version handy as unless they change the code that will be the last working version on amd chipped machines of this vintage.


Intel based ones still work if using a Pentium 4 or later.

Have a nice day.

Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
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Re: problem reading mail

Gene
 

Then don't use logic if parts of the categories organization of a ribbon are too arbitrary to make good sense, at least to you.  In an unfamiliar program, tab through every item in every ribbon and make notes of the key sequences to cause something to occur or something like a dialog to open when working in the program.  When working with menus, you do the same thing to use menus efficiently.  Most people don't down arrow to save as in the file menu and press enter.  They use short cut sequences, alt f a. 
 
As for the logic itself, isn't it logical that items dealing with copy and paste be found in the clipboard grouping category?  Isn't it logical that actions such as reply or forward be found in a ribbon e-mail program in a category called something like respond? 
 
Just because organization is different from what you are used to doesn't mean it is illogical.  You may like or dislike the organization but it is not illogical.
 
But again, if I use an item regularly, I memorize the sequence and I don't keep going through the ribbon to get to it. 
 
gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 3:55 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

I do agree totally. Ribbons  to me are like throwing toolbars, dialogues and
options all up in theaire and then when they land  joining them all together
in a random way with bits of string. Logic is out the window, and the pun
was intended.
 Brian

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Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Shaun Everiss" <sm.everiss@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 7:48 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail


> Actually what really gets my goat is that bar microsoft ribbons are not
> the industry standard.
> Ie every other bit of software I have used bar ms software does not have
> ribbons.
> We will just have to download system hacking tools to turn it off.
> Issue is with windows updating itself we will have to rerun these hack
> tools every month.
> This is not what I hoped.
> Yes I can manage the ribbon for a few things but I still can't do a select
> all as such in explorer, replace multiple files at once without a tedious
> copy past op hitting alt y or space a bunch of times, etc.
> I have managed to load the right sequences in office I need to do my job
> which is to say update office and check for mail in outlook but I can't
> say I have mastered ribbons either.
> Its why I am still on win7 and will while I have a legal coppy continue.
> Ofcause if ms doesn't improve, I will have to decide if I continue to stay
> legal and get an older computer with win7 or not.
> Or simply get a win10 computer for the net, and a win7 or heck windows xp
> system so I can do everything else that doesn't need me to be online.
> I was hoping ms would realise that ribbons are just what it thinks they
> have not caught on like they thought.
> And I think we should have theo ption to run ribbons in office and windows
> or just menus as normal.
>
>
>
> On 17/02/2017 6:28 a.m., Ron Canazzi wrote:
>> ...and while I respect Gene for most issues, when ever he has said in
>> the past that ribbons are easy once you get used to them, and I ask
>> about just how to use them in Excel--he or any of the other 'get on the
>> ball blinky' advocates of ribbons have no clue as to how to answer me.
>> I have some basic shortcuts I have been given by those forced to use the
>> newer Excel and Access version, but that's about it.  None who use
>> ribbons for complex suite such as Office do anything other than memorize
>> shortcuts to achieve basic functions.  Fortunately some of the older
>> ones such as Control + S for save and alt + F, A for save as still work,
>> but having real command of ribbons in complex programs still alludes
>> most blind people.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2/16/2017 11:17 AM, Brian's Mail list account wrote:
>>> Well I'm not rising to your bait. I meerely present what is not an
>>> uncommon view amongst blind users of windows.
>>>
>>> Brian
>>>
>>> bglists@...
>>> Sent via blueyonder.
>>> Please address personal email to:-
>>> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
>>> in the display name field.
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
>>> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>>> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 1:12 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
>>>
>>>
>>> What do you mean the only useable one.  You mean the only one you
>>> liked because you hate ribbons.  That is different than the only
>>> useable one.  The later version is perfectly useable.  If you are
>>> willing to use ribbons, it is just as useable as the old version.
>>>
>>> Microsoft doesn't provide the installer for the old version any longer
>>> but the full installer for the old version is available from
>>> individuals who have it.  I have it and I expect other list members
>>> have it as well.
>>>
>>> Outlook Express in the version that has been modified to work in
>>> Windows 7 and higher works well for some people and not for others.
>>> Gene
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> Gene----- Original Message -----
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Brian's Mail list account
>>> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:29 AM
>>> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>>> Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
>>>
>>>
>>> I think it happens on Windows Live mail but there are a number of
>>> different
>>> versions knocking around. To me the only usable one was the version
>>> using
>>> old style menus, which microsoft now seems to have removed as a
>>> download and
>>> the version is always asking to update or to go over tto the latest
>>> app. I
>>> don't think the app in 10 has support for Usenet so I'm loathe to do
>>> that
>>> change, and in any case Outlook express with the files that emulate
>>> the old
>>> html etc displays of xp seems to owork well and I do not begrudge the
>>> 20 Eu
>>> it costs for three keys at all as the guy is very helpful.
>>> This will do me for years unless nobody does pop3 email any more.
>>> Brian
>>>
>>> bglists@...
>>> Sent via blueyonder.
>>> Please address personal email to:-
>>> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
>>> in the display name field.
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Quentin Christensen"
>>> <quentin@...>
>>> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 10:36 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hi Gary,
>>>>
>>>> I must admit I haven't been using the mail app much.  I just had a look
>>>> and
>>>> found a couple of times it opened the message and I had to press
>>>> NVDA+down
>>>> arrow to read, but most time (even on the same messages), it read fine.
>>>>
>>>> Would love to get some more info if anyone else is experiencing this
>>>> (or
>>>> not) and particularly if anyone can better pin down exactly when it
>>>> does
>>>> and doesn't read automatically?
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>>
>>>> Quentin.
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 6:13 AM, Gary Metzler <gmtravel@...>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>
>>>>> I just updated to nvda 2017.rc1.  I am using wlm as my mail client.
>>>>> It
>>>>> used to be when I open a message I would hit the up arrow key and nvda
>>>>> would start reading the message.  Now, I have to hit the key for it to
>>>>> read
>>>>> the message.  Also I hear the word pane is this the way it will be?
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>> for any help.Regards, Gary kn4ox
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Quentin Christensen
>>>> Training Material Developer
>>>> Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now
>>>> available:
>>>> http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
>>>>
>>>> Ph +61 7 3149 3306
>>>> www.nvaccess.org
>>>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
>>>> Twitter: @NVAccess
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>



Databasees aand nvda

Brian's Mail list account
 

Hi I'd rather like to write a database, but really need something nvda can work with.

I am not only looking for the classic things of a database but I need it to be able to switch printers to print bar codes and reports via a normal printer in the right views. also report things either by saying a message without having to navigate to it or play a sound file when a scanning action matches some criteria for that user.
Does anything out of the box allow such easy configuration?
I don't do visual basic, or .net as they seem to call this environment these days, so I'd prefer a kind of module parameter based approach.
Brian

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Re: Adobe in Design

Gene
 

All that has to be known is that you tab and shift tab instead of left and right arrowing.  As for categories, in ribbons versus organization in menus, why, in many programs, is the options dialog found in the tools menu?  Why in others is it or something similar found in the edit menu?  If you can't find something by moving through just categories, you go through the entire ribbon.  And I just thought of another illogical and arbitrary use of placement in menus.  Why is update often located in the help menu?  Why isn't it in the tools menu?  I have never seen.  My guess is that ribbons have the items extend from left to right and that tabbing and shift tabbing moves me across a ribbon.  But even if I had no picture at all of the layout, all I would have to know is one very simple rule.  Tab through a ribbon to move forward.  Shift tab to move backward.  It's nice to have an idea of the layout but hardly necessary. 
 
Different people use ribbons in different ways.  I don't pay much attention to categories.  I look through entire ribbons when familiarizing myself with a new program.  I look through all menus when familiarizing myself with an unfamiliar menu program.  I'm not particularly interested in categories in a ribbon such as paste group.  It's useful to keep some of these in mind but not necessary.  I'm interested in the actual items and the short cut key sequences for those I intend to use regularly. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 3:48 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Adobe in Design

I think the point people are making is that somehow the concept needs to be
gotten to the blind person who by default tends to see the world as up and
down a page.
 If you have had sight in the past then you have a head start of course.
 Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "MAYANK SHARMA" <mayanks2010@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 6:18 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Adobe in Design


> Hi.
>
> It's not so much as a requirement for the college, but It's really
> handy to know the skill for designing when I go into the media
> industry That's smething something an employer would look for to put
> it in another way. If I can achieve the same with another software,
> that would work too. The purpose is to be able to design newspaper
> layouts.
> But it is true that this is a graphical software to be using.
>
> Cheers
>
> Mayank
>
>
> On 2/16/17, Richard Kuzma via Groups.Io <rmkuzma@...> wrote:
>> Ok, then,
>> Is the instructor and college or agency willing to give you a reasonable
>> accomadation since you are blind?
>> Might just want to put that out there in a nice way to see what happens.
>> Maybe they will make an exception for you.
>> If not, maybe I can load indesign here and see what I can figure out.
>> I am so behind on their version and so on, so you might have to refresh
>> my
>> memory.
>> Or, better yet,
>> If you have it on your system, maybe we coult to a nvda remote and try it
>> out.
>> Let me know if I can hep any way.
>> Rich
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of erik
>> burggraaf
>> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 7:41 AM
>> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>> Subject: Re: [nvda] Adobe in Design
>>
>> As I understand it this is a classroom situation.  The students have to
>> use
>>
>> what the professor tells them they have to use.
>>
>> Adobe in general is not a friend of accessibility, no matter how much
>> they
>> sponsor NVDA.  I haven't used these two applications and don't know what
>> work has been done, but it could really go either way.  Hopefully some
>> one
>> comes up with good information.
>>
>> Erik
>>
>> Sent with AquaMail for Android
>> http://www.aqua-mail.com
>>
>>
>> On February 16, 2017 7:28:50 AM "Richard Kuzma via Groups.Io"
>> <rmkuzma@...> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi there,
>>> I used to do graphic design before I lost my sight and used both
>>> indesign
>>>
>>> and quark.
>>> They are both very graphical user interfaces.
>>> I cant say that I have played with them and nvda,
>>> But I cant imagin it very easy.
>>> Why not use something like Microsoft word, or a word processor instead
>> that
>>> is not near as graphical.
>>> Let me know if I can help any other way.
>>> Rich
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
>>> MAYANK
>>
>>> SHARMA
>>> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:48 AM
>>> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>>> Subject: [nvda] Adobe in Design
>>>
>>> Hi everyone,
>>>
>>> I'm doing a journalism course and am encouraged to learn to work with
>>> adobe in design. Has anyone tried working on it with NVDA and if it is
>>> possible to do so?
>>> It is used to design layouts for newspapers. Also there's quarkXPress
>>> that we use for designing.
>>> Do tell me if it's not appropriate for this list.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>>> Mayank
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>



Re: Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work

Brian's Mail list account
 

However playing devils advocate a little here, can one be sure that the original menu version of this worked or did it only work via mouse selection or direct shortcut?
This sounds to me like an issue with the software in that the keyboard action of getting the dialogue or whatever to focus enough to get at the options simply won't work in that case. As such it needs to be sorted by Microsoft if it has Jaws and nvda giving similar results.
Its not that the function is not there, it is, but in an illogical place and seemingly not selectable from the ribbon route, only by mouse or keyboard shortcuts.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Canazzi" <aa2vm@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 6:37 AM
Subject: [nvda] Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work


Hi Group,


I have started a new thread on this ribbon business since some have complained that the other thread had drifted away from the original intent.


Here's one big issue with ribbons and Excel.

If one wants to insert a structural element of a work book such as a row, column area or sheet, one cannot do this by navigating the ribbons. The short cut which I will describe does work, but this was given to me by someone who figured it out with sighted help.


First of all, try looking for the items under the insert portion of the ribbon. They simply aren't there. Then via experimentation and observation, you find a separate insert item under the home portion of the ribbon under general. There's a problem, if you simply navigate to the insert item, and press either enter or space bar, nothing happens. somehow if you use the shortcut alt + h, I, you do get a list of items. You can then pick the desired item and press enter and follow the prompts or whatever. If you don't know the designated shortcut sequence, you simply can't find this item and get it to work with screen readers: JAWS or NVDA.


I know I have seen this in other Microsoft programs such as Access and Power Point as well.


I'm sorry folks, using ribbons does not give full access to screen reader users in many programs as we used to have under the standard drop down or pull down menus.


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"
Re: NVDA with Office 2003

Brian's Mail list account
 

Have you tried any of the recent snapshots. Not sure they will be any different but if this function has been added for later versions of windows, it might work on this old version as well. Certainly many of the recent Word additions even work in Word XP2002, but have no way to test your needs.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: <prem.translator@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 2:52 AM
Subject: [nvda] NVDA with Office 2003


Hello all listers,

Now I'm using NVDA 2016.4 with office 2003. In Word, is there any way to go to comment frame in a document? There is no problem with footnote, before changing to the next page, at the end of the current page; NVDA will always focus at the footnote frame. However, I can't go to any comment frame in order to read and edit it.



Thank you for any suggestion.
Re: problem reading mail

Brian's Mail list account
 

I think this has already been explained. Please don't start a war over this. I think intentions were valid and well meant, its just natural drift.

Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Metzler " <gmtravel@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2017 11:56 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail


Ron,

Why did you hijack my message? What has ribbins to do with reading mail? It is just rude to hijack a thread.

From: Ron Canazzi
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2017 9:27 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

In many programs, the items simply do not stay in the exact same position as they would in traditional pull down menus. This is what I have not only experienced myself, but have been told by those more expert than me who teach the stuff. That's why the short cuts for predesignated functions are the only sure way to keep tactical control over what you're doing with ribbons in complex programs.





On 2/16/2017 1:31 PM, Gene wrote:

I've repeatedly sent instructions on using ribbons to the list. And I don't say that ribbons are easy to use because that is a blanket generalization that may not apply to everyone. I do believe that for the majority or most users, if ribbons are properly taught, they will not be difficult to use.

I can send my discussion about how to use ribbons again, if desired. The essence of working with ribbons is that you open the ribbon bar with alt. You left or right arrow to the ribbon you want to use as you do when moving to a menu. Then instead of up or down arrowing, you tab or shift tab.

There is more to learn than that but that is the essence of understanding the organization of ribbons in the most simple introductory framework.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Ron Canazzi
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 11:28 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

...and while I respect Gene for most issues, when ever he has said in
the past that ribbons are easy once you get used to them, and I ask
about just how to use them in Excel--he or any of the other 'get on the
ball blinky' advocates of ribbons have no clue as to how to answer me.
I have some basic shortcuts I have been given by those forced to use the
newer Excel and Access version, but that's about it. None who use
ribbons for complex suite such as Office do anything other than memorize
shortcuts to achieve basic functions. Fortunately some of the older
ones such as Control + S for save and alt + F, A for save as still work,
but having real command of ribbons in complex programs still alludes
most blind people.



On 2/16/2017 11:17 AM, Brian's Mail list account wrote:
> Well I'm not rising to your bait. I meerely present what is not an
> uncommon view amongst blind users of windows.
>
> Brian
>
> bglists@...
> Sent via blueyonder.
> Please address personal email to:-
> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
> in the display name field.
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 1:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
>
>
> What do you mean the only useable one. You mean the only one you
> liked because you hate ribbons. That is different than the only
> useable one. The later version is perfectly useable. If you are
> willing to use ribbons, it is just as useable as the old version.
>
> Microsoft doesn't provide the installer for the old version any longer
> but the full installer for the old version is available from
> individuals who have it. I have it and I expect other list members
> have it as well.
>
> Outlook Express in the version that has been modified to work in
> Windows 7 and higher works well for some people and not for others.
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
> Gene----- Original Message -----
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Brian's Mail list account
> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:29 AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
>
>
> I think it happens on Windows Live mail but there are a number of
> different
> versions knocking around. To me the only usable one was the version using
> old style menus, which microsoft now seems to have removed as a
> download and
> the version is always asking to update or to go over tto the latest
> app. I
> don't think the app in 10 has support for Usenet so I'm loathe to do that
> change, and in any case Outlook express with the files that emulate
> the old
> html etc displays of xp seems to owork well and I do not begrudge the
> 20 Eu
> it costs for three keys at all as the guy is very helpful.
> This will do me for years unless nobody does pop3 email any more.
> Brian
>
> bglists@...
> Sent via blueyonder.
> Please address personal email to:-
> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
> in the display name field.
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Quentin Christensen"
> <quentin@...>
> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 10:36 PM
> Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail
>
>
>> Hi Gary,
>>
>> I must admit I haven't been using the mail app much. I just had a look
>> and
>> found a couple of times it opened the message and I had to press
>> NVDA+down
>> arrow to read, but most time (even on the same messages), it read fine.
>>
>> Would love to get some more info if anyone else is experiencing this (or
>> not) and particularly if anyone can better pin down exactly when it does
>> and doesn't read automatically?
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Quentin.
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 6:13 AM, Gary Metzler <gmtravel@...>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> I just updated to nvda 2017.rc1. I am using wlm as my mail client. It
>>> used to be when I open a message I would hit the up arrow key and nvda
>>> would start reading the message. Now, I have to hit the key for it to
>>> read
>>> the message. Also I hear the word pane is this the way it will be?
>>> Thanks
>>> for any help.Regards, Gary kn4ox
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Quentin Christensen
>> Training Material Developer
>> Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now
>> available:
>> http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
>>
>> Ph +61 7 3149 3306
>> www.nvaccess.org
>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
>> Twitter: @NVAccess
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"






--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"
Re: How to read Command Prompt using NVDA

Brian's Mail list account
 

I think the point to make is that a command prompt window is not like any other. Its a kind of dead display, with one live edit area which is focussed normally. To read results after they are displayed you have to use the review cursor.
To be quite honest, myself I cheat and send all output from a command to a text file somewhere.
Such as pin.exe address >pinresult.txt

then I simply view the text file at my leaisure. If you want to append to it just use >> instead.
Piping is something that dates back to those days of yore of Dos and was to some extent nicked from CP/M
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Tyler Spivey" <tspivey@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2017 2:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] How to read Command Prompt using NVDA


That doesn't give us much to go on. What are you pressing?
You should be using the review cursor.
The keys are in the commands reference, but if you've got a numpad then
numpad 7/8/9 should read lines regardless of which layout you use.

On 2/17/2017 6:36 AM, Martin O'Sullivan wrote:
Hi

I am trying to access the windows command prompt however NVDA will just
not read it. When I try the suggestions given in this topic NVDA just
reads other windows even though I can type commands and have them executed.

Here is what I am doing
Typing cmd at the run box.
Command window comes up fine.
I can execute commands and NVDA will read the command as it is being
typed. And will read any result. However I can’t review the result.

I will hear lots of other windows being read however I just can’t read
the command prompt.
Re: problem reading mail

Brian's Mail list account
 

Be careful about portable versions in w indows 10 though, as things often do not work as they did in Windows 7. Too much use of uia in 10 makes portable nvda nowhere near as useful
try it on ccleaner for example to see the kind of things that happen.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2017 11:59 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail


At this point, we don't know if you would have this problem if you went back to an earlier version of NVDA. You should go back and see. You could try a portable version and see if you have the same problem while leaving the current version installed or you could uninstall the current version and install an earlier one. But according to your message, your problem is much more than just not being able to use the up arrow when reading a message.

We don't know if something happened to Outlook that is coincidentally causing the problem or if they new version is the cause.
Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Gary Metzler
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2017 2:48 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail


Hi Gene,

After I read your message I wanted t go back and read it line by line. I wasn’t able to do this. I had to use the alt tab keys to change the focus so I could read your message. I don’t remember this happeneing with nvda 2016.4.Hi

From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 6:54 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

first, have you checked to make sure skim reading is still enabled? The update may have incorrectly changed the setting.

If the command is still correct, you may wish to read my further comments out of interest but they will be unnecessary to try to find a work around for the problem.
I should change or perhaps correct something I said earlier. this may not be an intended use of skim mode but it appears that it might do what you are describing. That raises the possibility that the problem might be addressed by the developers. It looks to me as though it is an unintended use of the feature but one that might be expected to work if skim reading is enabled. Here is the description from the manual, which I just looked up.
If on, certain navigation commands (such as quick navigation in browse mode or moving by line or paragraph) do not stop Say All, rather Say All jumps to the new position and continues reading.
Assuming you didn't change any settings either in your e-mail program or in NVDA, say all should automatically start when you open a message. What you are doing is using the move up by line command to try to move up a line when you can't. NVDA interrupts whatever it was speaking and starts to read from the current line.

While I understand why this worked in older versions, since it was very likely an unintended use of the command, I have no idea if the developers will try to restore the previous behavior if the command works correctly in general. My suggestion of using the read to end command should work just as welland, since there is no question that it does what is expected, it will continue to work regardless of updates unless the command is incorrectly implemented in a later version. And if it is, the developers would be expected to address the problem.

I can't comment on using the laptop layout but if you set NVDA to use the caps lock as a modifier, using caps lock down arrow is not, in any meaningful sense, more difficult and I think you would quickly get used to the new command.

It's better to use correct commands in general. Incorrect commands may not work in all contexts and they may stop working, as in this context, with the possibility of restoration uncertain.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 9:09 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Whether it used to work or not, that isn't documented or expected behavior. I have no idea if this might be restored or why the behavior has changed. Simply issue the usual read to end command when you open a message. I don't use thunderbird and I can't comment on this behavior stopping. But I can tell you that when I was learning something about thunderbird a number of years ago, the way I got message bodies to read efficiently, that is without the subject line being read, was to use the read to end command in whatever screen-reader I was working with. If the read to end command is inconvenient in whatever keyboard layout you are using, you may be able to make it far more convenient by doing something like having the caps lock key be an NVDA key.

You may have to experiment to see how long to wait after opening a message before issuing the command.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Gary Metzler
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 8:49 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Hi Brian,

When I used nvda 2016.4 when I opened a message I hit the up arrow key to
stop the reading of the subject line. In rc1 this no longer works. Thanks
for any help.

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian's Mail list account
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 5:13 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Well I don't think that should happen at all. What happens if you use the
older version. I'd also advise against using a portable version on windows
10, it seldom works verywell.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Metzler " <gmtravel@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 7:13 PM
Subject: [nvda] problem reading mail


Hi All,

I just updated to nvda 2017.rc1. I am using wlm as my mail client. It used
to be when I open a message I would hit the up arrow key and nvda would
start reading the message. Now, I have to hit the key for it to read the
message. Also I hear the word pane is this the way it will be? Thanks for
any help.Regards, Gary kn4ox
Re: Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work

Gene
 

Why are you assuming that is the fault of the ribbon?  Why can't it be some sort of improper implementation?  I don't know what accounts for what you are describing but without more information perhaps of a technical nature, why assume the ribbons are the problem? 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 12:37 AM
Subject: [nvda] Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work

Hi Group,


I have started a new thread on this ribbon business since some have
complained that the other thread had drifted away from the original intent.


Here's one big issue with ribbons and Excel.

If one wants to insert a structural element of a work book such as a
row, column area or sheet, one cannot do this by navigating the
ribbons.  The short cut which I will describe does work, but this was
given to me by someone who figured it out with sighted help.


First of all, try looking for the items under the insert portion of the
ribbon.  They simply aren't there.  Then via experimentation and
observation, you find a separate insert item under the home portion of
the ribbon under general.  There's a problem, if you simply navigate to
the insert item, and press either enter or space bar, nothing happens. 
somehow if you use the shortcut alt + h, I, you do get a list of items. 
You can then pick the desired item and press enter and follow the
prompts or whatever.  If you don't know the designated shortcut
sequence, you simply can't find this item and get it to work with screen
readers: JAWS or NVDA.


I know I have seen this in other Microsoft programs such as Access and
Power Point as well.


I'm sorry folks, using ribbons does not give full access to screen
reader users in many programs as we used to have under the standard drop
down or pull down menus.


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"
Re: problem reading mail

Brian's Mail list account
 

I now have the xp wordpad in 7....
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rosemarie Chavarria" <knitqueen2007@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2017 12:46 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail


Hi, Gene,



I had bought the book because at that time I was going from windows XP to windows 7. It had a section on how to navigate the ribbon in wordpad.



Rosemarie







From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:32 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail



Brian sent a discussion of how to work with ribbons and I offered to send one I wrote and have sent to the list before. Looking at both might be useful. If doing so doesn't answer your questions or allow you to understand most or all of working with ribbons, you might want to buy something but purchasing something may well not be necessary.



Gene

----- original Message -----

From: Rosemarie Chavarria <mailto:knitqueen2007@...>

Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 6:22 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail



Hi,

The book is mainly about windows 7 and vista but there is a section about learning the ribbon.



-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Shaun Everiss
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 3:55 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Hmmm I will have to investigate in that book my wordprocessing course was done on office xp back in the day.
If there is a book on ribbons then I will buy and read it.



On 17/02/2017 11:34 a.m., Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
Hi, Brian,



I think what helped me learn about the ribbon interface was a book that I bought from National Braille Press. I also took a course on word processing through Hadley School for the Blind and there was a section on learning the ribbon in wordpad. I agree with you here. It's not about going backward but advancing.



Rosemarie







From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 12:00 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail



On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 11:48 am, Shaun Everiss wrote:

Ie every other bit of software I have used bar ms software does not have ribbons.

Then you metaphorically "don't get around much anymore." Ribbons are very common in many programs of "relatively recent" design. There are menu-driven programs that were developed that way, but even these are now heading into Universal App interface design as they're being updated.of

And it really doesn't matter, one whit, whether ribbons are common outside Windows or not. They've been the defacto standard under Windows all the way back since the 2007 versions of Office were introduced and I think (though now I can't remember) are standard in Windows 7 functions like Windows Explorer, etc.

None of us gets to choose the interface a software manufacturer goes with. When they change there are several things you can do, one of those is resist and resist for well over a decade - which gets you absolutely nowhere when there's no chance of an interface ever going back to the menu driven one you (and I, for that matter) cut your teeth on.

I also think that there is a lot of "what's too painful to remember, we simply choose to forget" at play here. The multi-level menus of old on programs like Word, Excel, etc., were not in any way "intuitive." There are just too many functions for "intuitive" to be possible.

I recall hating the ribbon interface with a burning passion when it first came out because I already knew precisely how to access my "greatest hits list" either via point and click in menus or keyboard shortcuts. I had to relearn all of this (or a great deal of it) and was not happy in any way, shape, or form. After I did so, slowly but surely, it seemed no more difficult, but definitely no easier, either, than the menu system. I still have to resort to using the help function and/or brute force searching for functions I need only once every several years and almost invariably they've been placed somewhere that is utterly unintuitive to me as far as being "where I'd look first." This is for someone who's been using MS-Windows in all its iterations since the product first appeared on the market.
Re: problem reading mail

Brian's Mail list account
 

One assumes this is from the blind point of view. I have read many web so called tutorials on ribbons and all are from a sighted point of view, which also often are illustrated by pictures. Not a lot of help.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rosemarie Chavarria" <knitqueen2007@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2017 12:22 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail


Hi,

The book is mainly about windows 7 and vista but there is a section about learning the ribbon.



-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Shaun Everiss
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 3:55 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Hmmm I will have to investigate in that book my wordprocessing course was done on office xp back in the day.
If there is a book on ribbons then I will buy and read it.



On 17/02/2017 11:34 a.m., Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
Hi, Brian,



I think what helped me learn about the ribbon interface was a book that I bought from National Braille Press. I also took a course on word processing through Hadley School for the Blind and there was a section on learning the ribbon in wordpad. I agree with you here. It's not about going backward but advancing.



Rosemarie







From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 12:00 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail



On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 11:48 am, Shaun Everiss wrote:

Ie every other bit of software I have used bar ms software does not have ribbons.

Then you metaphorically "don't get around much anymore." Ribbons are very common in many programs of "relatively recent" design. There are menu-driven programs that were developed that way, but even these are now heading into Universal App interface design as they're being updated.of

And it really doesn't matter, one whit, whether ribbons are common outside Windows or not. They've been the defacto standard under Windows all the way back since the 2007 versions of Office were introduced and I think (though now I can't remember) are standard in Windows 7 functions like Windows Explorer, etc.

None of us gets to choose the interface a software manufacturer goes with. When they change there are several things you can do, one of those is resist and resist for well over a decade - which gets you absolutely nowhere when there's no chance of an interface ever going back to the menu driven one you (and I, for that matter) cut your teeth on.

I also think that there is a lot of "what's too painful to remember, we simply choose to forget" at play here. The multi-level menus of old on programs like Word, Excel, etc., were not in any way "intuitive." There are just too many functions for "intuitive" to be possible.

I recall hating the ribbon interface with a burning passion when it first came out because I already knew precisely how to access my "greatest hits list" either via point and click in menus or keyboard shortcuts. I had to relearn all of this (or a great deal of it) and was not happy in any way, shape, or form. After I did so, slowly but surely, it seemed no more difficult, but definitely no easier, either, than the menu system. I still have to resort to using the help function and/or brute force searching for functions I need only once every several years and almost invariably they've been placed somewhere that is utterly unintuitive to me as far as being "where I'd look first." This is for someone who's been using MS-Windows in all its iterations since the product first appeared on the market.
NVDA Accessible Database Software

Carlos
 

Hello All!

I know that this question has come up on list many times.

I would like to be able to create/process database files.

Is there any database software paid/free that is accessible with NVDA? I know that database software is so graphical in its nature that its controls are not accessible to screen readers! But, there has to be a way for the blind to be able to use database software for work/home purposes?

Hopefully, since the last time this question was asked someone has actually found NVDA database accessible software? Or, accessible database software that is accessible in any other screen reader?

Thank You! For all your recommendations!!!


--
Carlos Gonzalez - Los Angeles, CA. - gmjc341961@...
Re: problem reading mail

Brian's Mail list account
 

I think this came about because somebody said that if its a different version of mail the way to do something is different.

Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Metzler " <gmtravel@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 11:14 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail


Hi All,

I thought that hijacking someone eslses message thread was poor e mail edicate? My message had nothing to do with ribbins.

-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Metzler
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 5:49 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Hi Brian

I didn't make any changes to my wlm setup. This started happening when I
updated to rc1.


-----Original Message-----
From: Brian's Mail list account
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 11:19 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Has perhaps a parameter been added that needs to be ticked or umticked? I
had a quick look at this on another machine and could find no difference.
Its probably the way the email client was set up which has revealed this
change. Anyone?
Does not seem to affect Outlook express.
Do you use the preview pane? I always turn this off.

Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Metzler " <gmtravel@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 2:49 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail


Hi Brian,

When I used nvda 2016.4 when I opened a message I hit the up arrow key to stop the reading of the subject line. In rc1 this no longer works. Thanks for any help.

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian's Mail list account
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 5:13 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail

Well I don't think that should happen at all. What happens if you use the
older version. I'd also advise against using a portable version on windows
10, it seldom works verywell.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Metzler " <gmtravel@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 7:13 PM
Subject: [nvda] problem reading mail


Hi All,

I just updated to nvda 2017.rc1. I am using wlm as my mail client. It used
to be when I open a message I would hit the up arrow key and nvda would
start reading the message. Now, I have to hit the key for it to read the
message. Also I hear the word pane is this the way it will be? Thanks for
any help.Regards, Gary kn4ox
Re: problem reading mail

Brian's Mail list account
 

Its only an advance if its actually better in some way, but to my mind this is not the case with ribbons. Often its a conceptual issue in ones brain. Its hard to re learn a system that is similar to one already learned. It would almost have been better if there was an entirely new concept rather than a menue with stuff hanging off of it as ribbons are.
I also never did have a sense of direction which probably does not help either!
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rosemarie Chavarria" <knitqueen2007@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 10:34 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail


Hi, Brian,



I think what helped me learn about the ribbon interface was a book that I bought from National Braille Press. I also took a course on word processing through Hadley School for the Blind and there was a section on learning the ribbon in wordpad. I agree with you here. It's not about going backward but advancing.



Rosemarie







From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 12:00 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] problem reading mail



On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 11:48 am, Shaun Everiss wrote:

Ie every other bit of software I have used bar ms software does not have ribbons.

Then you metaphorically "don't get around much anymore." Ribbons are very common in many programs of "relatively recent" design. There are menu-driven programs that were developed that way, but even these are now heading into Universal App interface design as they're being updated.of

And it really doesn't matter, one whit, whether ribbons are common outside Windows or not. They've been the defacto standard under Windows all the way back since the 2007 versions of Office were introduced and I think (though now I can't remember) are standard in Windows 7 functions like Windows Explorer, etc.

None of us gets to choose the interface a software manufacturer goes with. When they change there are several things you can do, one of those is resist and resist for well over a decade - which gets you absolutely nowhere when there's no chance of an interface ever going back to the menu driven one you (and I, for that matter) cut your teeth on.

I also think that there is a lot of "what's too painful to remember, we simply choose to forget" at play here. The multi-level menus of old on programs like Word, Excel, etc., were not in any way "intuitive." There are just too many functions for "intuitive" to be possible.

I recall hating the ribbon interface with a burning passion when it first came out because I already knew precisely how to access my "greatest hits list" either via point and click in menus or keyboard shortcuts. I had to relearn all of this (or a great deal of it) and was not happy in any way, shape, or form. After I did so, slowly but surely, it seemed no more difficult, but definitely no easier, either, than the menu system. I still have to resort to using the help function and/or brute force searching for functions I need only once every several years and almost invariably they've been placed somewhere that is utterly unintuitive to me as far as being "where I'd look first." This is for someone who's been using MS-Windows in all its iterations since the product first appeared on the market.
--
Brian

I don't find an uninformed hatred a "principled position" that I need to respect in any way.

~ Ellen Evans, soc.motss, 11/6/2004
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