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Re: Issues with NVDA after updating to Windows 10

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Well I don't and have had little trouble. It does pay, however to keep system restore points before an update just in case.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Alexander Masic" <list@masic.se>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 7:35 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Issues with NVDA after updating to Windows 10


Always when i do major updates like this you did. I always reinstall all
aplications i am using. MS, screenreader and stuff. Yes, it takes plenty
of time, But on other hand i can often sit beside when people have
issues after utdate. It take longer time during the installation. but on
a long term i belive I am the winner.
Den 2017-08-17 kl. 06:33, skrev Quentin Christensen:
I remember NVDA working fine when I upgraded (early on). Maybe
something is different if upgrading now though?

On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 2:18 PM, Gene <gsasner@ripco.com
<mailto:gsasner@ripco.com>> wrote:

That's good. We'll see what the developers say about where it is
documented, if it is.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Michael Forzano <mailto:michaeldforzano@gmail.com>
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2017 10:28 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] Issues with NVDA after updating to Windows 10

That seems to have fixed it. Thanks for the help!

It didn't occur to me that a reinstall would be necessary since all of
my other apps worked fine after the update. Perhaps it should be added
to the documentation somewhere.

Mike

On 8/16/17, Gene <gsasner@ripco.com <mailto:gsasner@ripco.com>> wrote:
> Try uninstalling and reinstalling NVDA. According to comments I
saw hear
> early during the Windows 10 introduction, that should be done
when upgrading
> to Windows 10. See if that solves the problems.
> Gene
> ----- original Message -----
>
> From: Michael Forzano
> Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 6:37 PM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Subject: [nvda] Issues with NVDA after updating to Windows 10
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> I updated from Windows 7 to Windows 10 yesterday, and am having
2 issues:
> 1. NVDA no loger activates browse mode in Google Chrome (latest
version).
> This was working fine on Win 7 yesterday, but now even the
NVDA+Space
> command does not allow me to enter browse mode. Firefox is
working fine.
> 2. I'm no longer able to use the editor in the Eclipse IDE. NVDA
doesn't
> read any of the contents of the editor, and nothing is spoken
when I use the
> arrow keys or any other navigation commands.
>
> I have Windows 10 on another computer and can confirm the
Eclipse editor
> works fine there, so I have no idea what's going on here. Any
pointers would
> be appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
> Mike
>





--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now
available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Ph +61 7 3149 3306 <tel:%2B61%207%203149%203306>
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Re: Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Something odd going on today. I just changed the sub line to follow this discussion but the message has not shown this, now several messages have come in with the same text in them.
I need a lie down!
Brian

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Sent via blueyonder.
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@ripco.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 7:32 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes


I'll add that I have found, while preparing my messages in this thread, one instance where a misleading, though in a way literally accurate message is given.

I copied a web page address to the clipboard from the address bar. I then looked at the web page. I had forgotten that I had copied the address and returned to the address bar. On trying to copy the address, I received a no change message. As far as I know, the information was copied to the clipboard again but because it was the same information, the add on reported no change. This is the only misleading message I've gotten and I'm confident it can be corrected. I never had such an occurrence in JAWS. It simply announced copied to clipboard when something was copied twice because it was copied again. It was the identical material and it replaced the previous identical material but it was copied.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 1:26 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes


Here is the discussion I told you about where including a read clipboard contents command is debated.
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/193
As I said, it was like pulling teeth to get this feature included. I didn't read the entire discussion and I don't remember if anything was decided at that time. but again the assertion is made, that is incorrect based on my years of experience, that when something is copied or pasted to or from the clipboard, that whether the events occurred or not can't be accurately determined. I've already addressed this in my previous message. but with this sort of rigid ideology, is it any wonder that this false assertion wasn't tested an evaluated and that no effort has been made to add copy and paste announcements to NVDA? And in complete contradiction to this rigid ideology, why is there a links list in Browse Mode? Why can this be altered to move by headings and other structures? No sighted person has a links list or any other such structure. So not only is this ideology rigid and in some cases obstructive, it isn't consistently applied.

I am not in any way expressing a lack of appreciation for all of the excellent work done by NVDA developers and the time and effort it took. but I am very frustrated when I see a feature that blind people have asked for for more than five years being shown no interest because ideology dictates that it shouldn't be considered. Also, if people feel that they should pull their punches when discussing deficiencies in NVDA because they think that gratitude should cause them not to discuss them or do so meekly and mildly, they are not doing anyone any service.

Gene
From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 1:08 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes


This message is rather long but that's because to explain my position takes time and space. I have gone to the trouble because this has been an issue of frustration to me for years.

I may be wrong when I thought that the main reason was that the developers didn't want NvDA to give information sighted users don't have. But the reason given, as far back as about 2009 was incorrect based on all my years of experience with JAWS. I didn't use System Access long enough to make such a statement but I did use it enough to say that I never saw an inaccurate report in that screen-reader. I tested both screen-readers by not having anything selected and using the copy and paste commands. In those tests, neither screen-reader reported any action. the entire premise given in about 2009 is incorrect. I shall provide a link to the brief discussion I found. Perhaps I can find more discussion because this is such a recurring request over the years. As I recall, Window-eyes at least for a time, did use a key label to indicate copy and paste which would have been inaccurate if nothing happened. It is the only popular screen-reader in america that did this. I don't know what Dolphin (spelling) did. but I do know that in my roughly twelve years of using JAWS, I never once got a false report and in the times I used System Access, I didn't get a false report either. I haven't received a false report using the NVDA add on for about two weeks either and I was alerted that my attempt to copy a file to the clipboard had failed, which saved me time and trouble.

I don't have to technical knowledge to assess if the developer of the add on is correct in asserting that errors may occur when using his add on. I can say with confidence that this feature can be accurate, based on twelve years' experience with JAWS.

Here is the link to the discussion:
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/75

Aside from my previous objections, note the following quote:
This is an unreasonable expectation that can't, literally can't, be complied with. When copying text to the clipboard, the speak clipboard feature can verify that it has been copied. But when copying files or folders, there is no way to check except to paste them where desired, only to find that nothing was pasted because nothing was copied or the the wrong files and folders from a previous copy to the clipboard were pasted in the wrong. place.

Of course, it is desirable that users become confident and competent computer users. but many times, I have properly issued the copy command and I know I issued it correctly. I then tried to paste what I had copied to find that I had copied nothing. This didn't just happen once or twice but many times over a period of time when copying text or files and folders.

It is also much more efficient to hear a simple copied or copied to clipboard when copying text than to have to issue the speak clipboard contents command, listen for a moment to make sure that the material was copied, then continue with what I was doing. And in the case of copying large amounts of material, it isn't read. You are told how many characters have been copied. Let's say you copy 23,374 characters to the clipboard, then listen to the announcement of how many characters you copy by issuing the speak clipboard contents command. You then paste it where you want it. Then you copy other text to the clipboard, or attempt to. Is it reasonable that the user should remember the number of characters he copied the last time so that he can compare that number with the number he heard announced after copying the new material? ans suppose the number is of similar or rather similar size. Let's say I copy 23,374 the first time. Let's say that the second time, I hear 23,265. Is it really reasonable that someone, while writing something like a research paper, be expected to remember such numbers whether they are similar or not?

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Quentin Christensen
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 11:44 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes


Thanks Gene,


I hadn't specifically looked into the way other screen readers handled it. The notes for ClipSpeak say: "In order to prevent announcement in inappropriate situations, Clipspeak performs checks on the control and the clipboard in order to make an informed decision as to whether such an announcement is necessary. Because of this, Clipspeak's announcements may be inaccurate."


The point is that add-ons like these react to the keystroke, check the environment and whether the command (copy, paste etc) is theoretically possible, and then gives the report. It is NOT confirmation that such an action has taken place, which is why we are reluctant to add it to core. If we could be sure of that, I'd be all for adding it to core. The argument about sighted users not having a visual indicator actually isn't 100% correct. There is nothing on screen to say text was copied or pasted, however if you have text selected and you cut it, the text disappears visually. If you paste text, then text suddenly appears in your document (or wherever).


In the meantime, the clipspeak add-on works for the most part I believe. Just to be clear, I was never having a go at those who use the add-on, my suggestion to disable it was simply to take eliminate one possible variable when investigating the original problem.


Regards


Quentin.


On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 2:27 PM, Gene <gsasner@ripco.com> wrote:

That isn't correct. I wrote about this a year or two ago when the topic came up for discussion one of the times that it did. I tested JAWS and it knows when information is copied, as does System Access, which I also tested. I don't remember if I tested Window-eyes and, clearly, clip speak does as well. If it didn't, I wouldn't see a no change message when no change has occurred. Also, it would be a needless duplication of the fake clipboard announcement add on that has been available for years.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Quentin Christensen
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 11:17 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes


The reason why "cut", "copy", "paste" etc aren't always announced is simply that just because that is the common use for control+x, control+c and control+v respectively, we can't always tell whether anything was actually cut, copied or pasted. To our knowledge, the way other screen readers which do announce this do it, is the same way that clip speak does - they announce it in most places because that is what usually happens, but it is possible there was an error or something else which prevented it, in which case telling the user text was copied is misleading. There is also the "speak command keys" either via the keyboard preferences (NVDA+control+k) or directly with NVDA+4. Note that NVDA does announce when text is copied in certain situations, particularly when using the review cursor where it was NVDA itself that copied the text.






On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 2:09 PM, Gene <gsasner@ripco.com> wrote:

I use a very old version most of the time because I like the way review modes are offered in the interface as opposed to the newer versions. It isn't an important diffference but since this version, one of the 13 versions, meets my needs and I prefer that part of the interface, I keep using it.

I don't know what kind of problems you are having specifically and whether I might have any suggestions.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: nasrin khaksar
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 9:50 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes


hi gene.
i again forgot which version of nvda do you use?
i yesterday tested 2012.2 version of nvda and realized that nvda has
many inconsistency using farsi language and i did not see any of these
problems in flat review.
whats the solution for me?
thanks so much and God bless you!

On 8/17/17, Gene <gsasner@ripco.com> wrote:
> I'm not sure why this is, but based on my experience and on a message or two
> from others, at times, Clip Speak causes odd things to happen. It works
> well on my machine in general but when I use Freemake video converter, Clip
> Speak doesn't allow me to paste a youtube address into the address field. I
> assume that disabling it would stop the problem but the version of NVDA I
> use is too old to have disable available. So I run a version of NVDA
> without Clip Speak installed and the problem disappears.
>
> I consider it well worth that slight inconvenience to get real time and
> accurate feed back about copying and pasting. Once I was copying a file, as
> I recall, and Clip Speak told me that there had been no change. I don't
> recall what I did after that but I got it to copy by fooling around in some
> way. Maybe I just opened and closed My Computer and went back to the files
> list. If I hadn't been using Clip Speak, I would have gone through the
> trouble of trying to paste a file that wasn't on the clipboard. I would
> have failed and had to do more work. There is simply no way of getting
> around it. This feature should be and should have been built into NVDA from
> the outset. Not to do so is to allow ideology about what screen-readers
> should and shouldn't do to override practical experience and common sense.
> There are rare instances when screen-readers should tell blind users things
> that a sighted person might not be informed of. That is the reason I've
> always heard from developers about why the feature isn't in the program,
> that Windows doesn't indicate to sighted users when copying and pasting take
> place. Is that true? I was informed many years ago by a sighted user that
> there is some sort of icon, as I recall. Whatever the case, that argument
> is, in my strong opinion irrelevant.
>
> A lot of NVDA users will never know about this add on. And if the add on
> had been incorporated into program code at the outset, the bugs we are
> finding now would either not have existed or would have been worked out
> long, long ago.
>
> I'm very pleased that the add on has been developed but I still very
> strongly believe that this feature should be and should have been
> incorporated into NVDA from the outset.
>
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Quentin Christensen
> Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 6:57 PM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various
> modes
>
>
> I wonder if it's that clipspeak program? If you try disabling / quitting
> that and then copying text from WordPad does it still paste the embedded
> object?
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 3:48 AM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
> <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:
>
> Well, I'm just plain awkward, quite obviously. I do not like the wordpad
> in 7. Its got ribbons I think and defaults to some strange file type.
> However, I find in word that if you paste in browse mode you get an embedded
> object in focus mode it will work but clipspeak when active generates a word
> out of memory error, which is totally spurious as it pastes in any case.
> Brian
>
> bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
> Sent via blueyonder.
> Please address personal email to:-
> briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
> in the display name field.
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Quentin Christensen"
> <quentin@nvaccess.org>
> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 1:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various
> modes
>
>
>
>
> You're using Windows 7, and which version of Office? Are you using the
> standard WordPad that comes with Windows or are you saying you've
> copied
> the version out of XP?
>
> I just tried it on Windows 10 using the build it WordPad and Office
> 2016
> and everything worked as it should, but looks like that's a completely
> different system to yours. I'll try on my WIndows 7 PC in the morning.
>
> When Word starts, NVDA *should* be in focus mode. If you change to
> Browse
> mode (NVDA+spacebar) then you shouldn't be able to type as it will be
> looking for letters as single letter navigation keys to jump to
> elements.
> You can paste text in this mode but you really need to go into focus
> mode
> to manipulate it.
>
> In Word's paste special options, which you can get to with
> control+alt+v,
> you can paste a "Wordpad document object" (after opening the dialog,
> you
> need to press up arrow once then enter - at least in Office 2016). That
> is
> basically an object box - like a picture or a text box or a chart, in
> your
> document. Visually it looks like whatever text you copied out of
> WordPad,
> and when you activate or edit it, a Wordpad window opens with the text
> inside.
>
> To edit / activate it, you can double click it with the mouse, There
> doesn't seem to be a simple, equivalent keyboard shortcut that I can
> find,
> but if you open the context menu, you can select "Wordpad document
> object",
> then edit.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 7:31 PM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
> <
> bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:
>
>
> OK, we have an rtf document in Wordpad
> We have a blank Microsoft word. When Word opens the mode is
> apparently
> normally in brose, but you can type into the file this way.
> However say you grab some text from Wordpad and attempt to paste it
> into
> word. It does not work as expected, you end up with an embedded object
> in
> the file.
> However if you switch word to focus mode, you can paste it in as
> normal.
> Is this expected or a bug?
>
> Note here that since I have clipspeak involved, when I try to paste
> in
> focus mode I get the out of memory warning which is bogus and can be
> ignored due to who knows what.
> I'd be particularly interested in people with different versions of
> operating systems wordpad and word, as I tend to use the xp wordpad in
> 7
> and an older style ie normal menus, version of word. Everything else
> seems
> fine. I just need to remember to switch modes. I'm just wondering what
> the
> embedded object pasted actually is?
> Brian
>
> bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
> Sent via blueyonder.
> Please address personal email to:-
> briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
> in the display name field.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Quentin Christensen
> Training and Support Manager
>
> Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now
> available:
> http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
>
> Ph +61 7 3149 3306
> www.nvaccess.org
> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
> Twitter: @NVAccess
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Quentin Christensen
> Training and Support Manager
>
>
> Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available:
> http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
>
>
> Ph +61 7 3149 3306
> www.nvaccess.org
> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
> Twitter: @NVAccess
>
>


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--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/


Ph +61 7 3149 3306
www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess








--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/


Ph +61 7 3149 3306
www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess


Re: Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

A lot of these features started out as add ons of course. The clipspeak add on is what I'm using now. It does work but has some wrong announcements and sometimes triggers the memory low message from some versions of Word.



I agree that just because the sighted don't have it is not reason we should not either, but I think it all comes done, particularly in the early times to priority decisions, and ask 10 people to tell you what is important and you get 10 different answers.
For example I'd have not gone into the Braille display driving so fast, and gone and put in things like cut and past messages. After all its a free program and Braille displays are expensive, but getting new folk to use the program is very important if you rely on donations. I suspect a lot of things were done due to the priorities of who donated,such as Adobe, Mozilla etc, as the money came with strings attached.
This unfortunately is because people have to eat!

One has to be pretty pragmatic about things if you want the product to remain, in the main free.
Although nvda will stay free, I note obviously that training aids, and synths and some other parts to enhance its use are not, and personally I think this has to be right.
Indeed support is another thorny problem, as telephone support on demand is expensive and is charged for.

However given all that. What is emerging is very good and to be honest I'd still be using an old operating system and an old screenreader if it had not come along when it did. and I suspect this goes for many others.

Of course the thorny problem of narrator and its improved state has to be seen now. Its not there yet, but is better than it was.

The future could be anything and it will be interesting to see, if Jamie goes to Mozilla and stays there whether moves to buy out nvda might occur later on. I personally hope not as the larger the organisation the more defuse the priorities get when times get tough.

Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@ripco.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 7:26 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes


Here is the discussion I told you about where including a read clipboard contents command is debated.
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/193
As I said, it was like pulling teeth to get this feature included. I didn't read the entire discussion and I don't remember if anything was decided at that time. but again the assertion is made, that is incorrect based on my years of experience, that when something is copied or pasted to or from the clipboard, that whether the events occurred or not can't be accurately determined. I've already addressed this in my previous message. but with this sort of rigid ideology, is it any wonder that this false assertion wasn't tested an evaluated and that no effort has been made to add copy and paste announcements to NVDA? And in complete contradiction to this rigid ideology, why is there a links list in Browse Mode? Why can this be altered to move by headings and other structures? No sighted person has a links list or any other such structure. So not only is this ideology rigid and in some cases obstructive, it isn't consistently applied.

I am not in any way expressing a lack of appreciation for all of the excellent work done by NVDA developers and the time and effort it took. but I am very frustrated when I see a feature that blind people have asked for for more than five years being shown no interest because ideology dictates that it shouldn't be considered. Also, if people feel that they should pull their punches when discussing deficiencies in NVDA because they think that gratitude should cause them not to discuss them or do so meekly and mildly, they are not doing anyone any service.

Gene
From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 1:08 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes


This message is rather long but that's because to explain my position takes time and space. I have gone to the trouble because this has been an issue of frustration to me for years.

I may be wrong when I thought that the main reason was that the developers didn't want NvDA to give information sighted users don't have. But the reason given, as far back as about 2009 was incorrect based on all my years of experience with JAWS. I didn't use System Access long enough to make such a statement but I did use it enough to say that I never saw an inaccurate report in that screen-reader. I tested both screen-readers by not having anything selected and using the copy and paste commands. In those tests, neither screen-reader reported any action. the entire premise given in about 2009 is incorrect. I shall provide a link to the brief discussion I found. Perhaps I can find more discussion because this is such a recurring request over the years. As I recall, Window-eyes at least for a time, did use a key label to indicate copy and paste which would have been inaccurate if nothing happened. It is the only popular screen-reader in america that did this. I don't know what Dolphin (spelling) did. but I do know that in my roughly twelve years of using JAWS, I never once got a false report and in the times I used System Access, I didn't get a false report either. I haven't received a false report using the NVDA add on for about two weeks either and I was alerted that my attempt to copy a file to the clipboard had failed, which saved me time and trouble.

I don't have to technical knowledge to assess if the developer of the add on is correct in asserting that errors may occur when using his add on. I can say with confidence that this feature can be accurate, based on twelve years' experience with JAWS.

Here is the link to the discussion:
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/75

Aside from my previous objections, note the following quote:
This is an unreasonable expectation that can't, literally can't, be complied with. When copying text to the clipboard, the speak clipboard feature can verify that it has been copied. But when copying files or folders, there is no way to check except to paste them where desired, only to find that nothing was pasted because nothing was copied or the the wrong files and folders from a previous copy to the clipboard were pasted in the wrong. place.

Of course, it is desirable that users become confident and competent computer users. but many times, I have properly issued the copy command and I know I issued it correctly. I then tried to paste what I had copied to find that I had copied nothing. This didn't just happen once or twice but many times over a period of time when copying text or files and folders.

It is also much more efficient to hear a simple copied or copied to clipboard when copying text than to have to issue the speak clipboard contents command, listen for a moment to make sure that the material was copied, then continue with what I was doing. And in the case of copying large amounts of material, it isn't read. You are told how many characters have been copied. Let's say you copy 23,374 characters to the clipboard, then listen to the announcement of how many characters you copy by issuing the speak clipboard contents command. You then paste it where you want it. Then you copy other text to the clipboard, or attempt to. Is it reasonable that the user should remember the number of characters he copied the last time so that he can compare that number with the number he heard announced after copying the new material? ans suppose the number is of similar or rather similar size. Let's say I copy 23,374 the first time. Let's say that the second time, I hear 23,265. Is it really reasonable that someone, while writing something like a research paper, be expected to remember such numbers whether they are similar or not?

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Quentin Christensen
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 11:44 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes


Thanks Gene,


I hadn't specifically looked into the way other screen readers handled it. The notes for ClipSpeak say: "In order to prevent announcement in inappropriate situations, Clipspeak performs checks on the control and the clipboard in order to make an informed decision as to whether such an announcement is necessary. Because of this, Clipspeak's announcements may be inaccurate."


The point is that add-ons like these react to the keystroke, check the environment and whether the command (copy, paste etc) is theoretically possible, and then gives the report. It is NOT confirmation that such an action has taken place, which is why we are reluctant to add it to core. If we could be sure of that, I'd be all for adding it to core. The argument about sighted users not having a visual indicator actually isn't 100% correct. There is nothing on screen to say text was copied or pasted, however if you have text selected and you cut it, the text disappears visually. If you paste text, then text suddenly appears in your document (or wherever).


In the meantime, the clipspeak add-on works for the most part I believe. Just to be clear, I was never having a go at those who use the add-on, my suggestion to disable it was simply to take eliminate one possible variable when investigating the original problem.


Regards


Quentin.


On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 2:27 PM, Gene <gsasner@ripco.com> wrote:

That isn't correct. I wrote about this a year or two ago when the topic came up for discussion one of the times that it did. I tested JAWS and it knows when information is copied, as does System Access, which I also tested. I don't remember if I tested Window-eyes and, clearly, clip speak does as well. If it didn't, I wouldn't see a no change message when no change has occurred. Also, it would be a needless duplication of the fake clipboard announcement add on that has been available for years.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Quentin Christensen
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 11:17 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes


The reason why "cut", "copy", "paste" etc aren't always announced is simply that just because that is the common use for control+x, control+c and control+v respectively, we can't always tell whether anything was actually cut, copied or pasted. To our knowledge, the way other screen readers which do announce this do it, is the same way that clip speak does - they announce it in most places because that is what usually happens, but it is possible there was an error or something else which prevented it, in which case telling the user text was copied is misleading. There is also the "speak command keys" either via the keyboard preferences (NVDA+control+k) or directly with NVDA+4. Note that NVDA does announce when text is copied in certain situations, particularly when using the review cursor where it was NVDA itself that copied the text.






On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 2:09 PM, Gene <gsasner@ripco.com> wrote:

I use a very old version most of the time because I like the way review modes are offered in the interface as opposed to the newer versions. It isn't an important diffference but since this version, one of the 13 versions, meets my needs and I prefer that part of the interface, I keep using it.

I don't know what kind of problems you are having specifically and whether I might have any suggestions.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: nasrin khaksar
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 9:50 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes


hi gene.
i again forgot which version of nvda do you use?
i yesterday tested 2012.2 version of nvda and realized that nvda has
many inconsistency using farsi language and i did not see any of these
problems in flat review.
whats the solution for me?
thanks so much and God bless you!

On 8/17/17, Gene <gsasner@ripco.com> wrote:
> I'm not sure why this is, but based on my experience and on a message or two
> from others, at times, Clip Speak causes odd things to happen. It works
> well on my machine in general but when I use Freemake video converter, Clip
> Speak doesn't allow me to paste a youtube address into the address field. I
> assume that disabling it would stop the problem but the version of NVDA I
> use is too old to have disable available. So I run a version of NVDA
> without Clip Speak installed and the problem disappears.
>
> I consider it well worth that slight inconvenience to get real time and
> accurate feed back about copying and pasting. Once I was copying a file, as
> I recall, and Clip Speak told me that there had been no change. I don't
> recall what I did after that but I got it to copy by fooling around in some
> way. Maybe I just opened and closed My Computer and went back to the files
> list. If I hadn't been using Clip Speak, I would have gone through the
> trouble of trying to paste a file that wasn't on the clipboard. I would
> have failed and had to do more work. There is simply no way of getting
> around it. This feature should be and should have been built into NVDA from
> the outset. Not to do so is to allow ideology about what screen-readers
> should and shouldn't do to override practical experience and common sense.
> There are rare instances when screen-readers should tell blind users things
> that a sighted person might not be informed of. That is the reason I've
> always heard from developers about why the feature isn't in the program,
> that Windows doesn't indicate to sighted users when copying and pasting take
> place. Is that true? I was informed many years ago by a sighted user that
> there is some sort of icon, as I recall. Whatever the case, that argument
> is, in my strong opinion irrelevant.
>
> A lot of NVDA users will never know about this add on. And if the add on
> had been incorporated into program code at the outset, the bugs we are
> finding now would either not have existed or would have been worked out
> long, long ago.
>
> I'm very pleased that the add on has been developed but I still very
> strongly believe that this feature should be and should have been
> incorporated into NVDA from the outset.
>
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Quentin Christensen
> Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 6:57 PM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various
> modes
>
>
> I wonder if it's that clipspeak program? If you try disabling / quitting
> that and then copying text from WordPad does it still paste the embedded
> object?
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 3:48 AM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
> <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:
>
> Well, I'm just plain awkward, quite obviously. I do not like the wordpad
> in 7. Its got ribbons I think and defaults to some strange file type.
> However, I find in word that if you paste in browse mode you get an embedded
> object in focus mode it will work but clipspeak when active generates a word
> out of memory error, which is totally spurious as it pastes in any case.
> Brian
>
> bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
> Sent via blueyonder.
> Please address personal email to:-
> briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
> in the display name field.
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Quentin Christensen"
> <quentin@nvaccess.org>
> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 1:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various
> modes
>
>
>
>
> You're using Windows 7, and which version of Office? Are you using the
> standard WordPad that comes with Windows or are you saying you've
> copied
> the version out of XP?
>
> I just tried it on Windows 10 using the build it WordPad and Office
> 2016
> and everything worked as it should, but looks like that's a completely
> different system to yours. I'll try on my WIndows 7 PC in the morning.
>
> When Word starts, NVDA *should* be in focus mode. If you change to
> Browse
> mode (NVDA+spacebar) then you shouldn't be able to type as it will be
> looking for letters as single letter navigation keys to jump to
> elements.
> You can paste text in this mode but you really need to go into focus
> mode
> to manipulate it.
>
> In Word's paste special options, which you can get to with
> control+alt+v,
> you can paste a "Wordpad document object" (after opening the dialog,
> you
> need to press up arrow once then enter - at least in Office 2016). That
> is
> basically an object box - like a picture or a text box or a chart, in
> your
> document. Visually it looks like whatever text you copied out of
> WordPad,
> and when you activate or edit it, a Wordpad window opens with the text
> inside.
>
> To edit / activate it, you can double click it with the mouse, There
> doesn't seem to be a simple, equivalent keyboard shortcut that I can
> find,
> but if you open the context menu, you can select "Wordpad document
> object",
> then edit.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 7:31 PM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
> <
> bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:
>
>
> OK, we have an rtf document in Wordpad
> We have a blank Microsoft word. When Word opens the mode is
> apparently
> normally in brose, but you can type into the file this way.
> However say you grab some text from Wordpad and attempt to paste it
> into
> word. It does not work as expected, you end up with an embedded object
> in
> the file.
> However if you switch word to focus mode, you can paste it in as
> normal.
> Is this expected or a bug?
>
> Note here that since I have clipspeak involved, when I try to paste
> in
> focus mode I get the out of memory warning which is bogus and can be
> ignored due to who knows what.
> I'd be particularly interested in people with different versions of
> operating systems wordpad and word, as I tend to use the xp wordpad in
> 7
> and an older style ie normal menus, version of word. Everything else
> seems
> fine. I just need to remember to switch modes. I'm just wondering what
> the
> embedded object pasted actually is?
> Brian
>
> bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
> Sent via blueyonder.
> Please address personal email to:-
> briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
> in the display name field.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Quentin Christensen
> Training and Support Manager
>
> Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now
> available:
> http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
>
> Ph +61 7 3149 3306
> www.nvaccess.org
> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
> Twitter: @NVAccess
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Quentin Christensen
> Training and Support Manager
>
>
> Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available:
> http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
>
>
> Ph +61 7 3149 3306
> www.nvaccess.org
> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
> Twitter: @NVAccess
>
>


--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration is:
imam hosein is the beacon of light and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
al-islam.org










--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/


Ph +61 7 3149 3306
www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess








--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/


Ph +61 7 3149 3306
www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess


Re: NVDA API docs: updated to 2017.3 baseline/RC

 

Hi,
Not just yet. I'll add a zip version once 2017.3 final build goes live.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of kavein thran
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 12:35 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA API docs: updated to 2017.3 baseline/RC

hello joseph,

thanks for the great work. Can I we have this in zipp?

On 8/17/17, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi all,



NVDA API docs has been updated to 2017.3 baseline/RC1. This houses
documentation for NVDA source code docstrings as one would generate
from the NVDA screen reader source code. The API docs are hosted on my
website and can be found at:

http://www.josephsl.net/files/nvdadocs/dev/



Note that this is a supplement to the development guides published by
NV Access and the add-ons community.



Key API changes in 2017.3 include:



* Content Recognition module (contentRecog) has been added to allow
OCR engines and their interfaces to provide text recognition services.
At the moment only Windows 10 OCR is available.
* UIA handler: three new UIA events are now recognized: controller
for, system alert, and live region changed. Controller for is used to
let a control depend on another for features such as auto-suggest
accessibility, system alerts are used for various alerts, and live
region changes are caught and announced by NVDA.
* Events: three new events are added: event_liveRegionChange,
event_suggestionsOpened, and event_suggestionsClosed. The new live
region change event announces changes to live regions and objects can
tell NVDA to ignore this event if needed. Suggestions opened and
closed events are used to announce appearance of auto-suggest lists in
various places such as various apps in Windows 10 and in Start menu,
and are applicable in places such as auto-completion boxes in various IDE's and others.
* New behavior: NVDAObjects.behaviors.EditableTextWithSuggestions has
been added for scenarios where documents and other edit fields provide
search suggestions.
* Unit tests and bug fixes: some bug fixes were possible thanks to
unit tests included with NVDA. It is strongly recommended that you
provide unit tests when you submit code contributions.
* New Python library module: json (Javascript Object Notation) module
is now part of NVDA, so add-ons don't need to include this if
compatibility with 2017.3 or later is desired. If you want to support
older releases, you should continue to include json package.
* Contracted and uncontracted braille input: as a result, it is no
longer possible for braille display drivers to specify commands for
backspace and enter keys, as dot 7 (backspace) and dot 8 (enter and
translate text) will be used to perform these commands.
* C++ side of things: NVDA now uses C++/CX (C++ with Component
eXtensions) when calling Windows Runtime/Universal Windows Platform API.
This is chiefly used to support Windows OneCore voices and to interact
with universal OCR API. As a result, compiling with Visual Studio 2015
Express is no longer possible - at least VS2015 Community with
Universal Windows Platform SDK support is required.
* Less visible changes: User guide was made more user (and beginner)
friendly, copyright headers were added for some files.



For users: I added the above API changelog to show two things: the
work required to move NVDA to the next level, and to show the work
involved when it comes to contributing to NVDA. This came about after
a discussion on the users list about some folks wanting to contribute
code to NVDA with little to no Python knowledge.



For add-on writers: keeping up with NVDA API changes is essential.
This will become more important as we kick off Python 3 transition.



For developers: I was inspired by a discussion on the users list
regarding code contributions and python's own What's New docs, thus I
decided to write the changelog above. For a brief changelog, see
"changes for developers"
section in the what's new document.



Cheers,

Joseph


Re: Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

 

gene, i completely agree!
i dont believe that one feature should not be in nvda, just because
sighted people have not this feature!
like links list which you mentioned in browsers, even virtual
navigation for pdf and html, announcing time and date with nvda+f12
and many many features.
for example: i reported my request for adding virtual ribbon menu in
nvda and jamie did not accept my request to be included in nvda!
i realy wish to have such features.
about your question, nvda does not recognize farsi characters when i
want to navigate in farsi messages and also some documents in not
complete accessible using screen review.
nvda announces farsi characters strangely and in language and alphabet
that i cant realy understand!
i tested nvda 2012.2 and did not have this problem using flat review.

On 8/17/17, Gene <gsasner@ripco.com> wrote:
I'll add that I have found, while preparing my messages in this thread, one
instance where a misleading, though in a way literally accurate message is
given.

I copied a web page address to the clipboard from the address bar. I then
looked at the web page. I had forgotten that I had copied the address and
returned to the address bar. On trying to copy the address, I received a no
change message. As far as I know, the information was copied to the
clipboard again but because it was the same information, the add on reported
no change. This is the only misleading message I've gotten and I'm
confident it can be corrected. I never had such an occurrence in JAWS. It
simply announced copied to clipboard when something was copied twice because
it was copied again. It was the identical material and it replaced the
previous identical material but it was copied.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 1:26 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various
modes


Here is the discussion I told you about where including a read clipboard
contents command is debated.
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/193
As I said, it was like pulling teeth to get this feature included. I didn't
read the entire discussion and I don't remember if anything was decided at
that time. but again the assertion is made, that is incorrect based on my
years of experience, that when something is copied or pasted to or from the
clipboard, that whether the events occurred or not can't be accurately
determined. I've already addressed this in my previous message. but with
this sort of rigid ideology, is it any wonder that this false assertion
wasn't tested an evaluated and that no effort has been made to add copy and
paste announcements to NVDA? And in complete contradiction to this rigid
ideology, why is there a links list in Browse Mode? Why can this be altered
to move by headings and other structures? No sighted person has a links
list or any other such structure. So not only is this ideology rigid and in
some cases obstructive, it isn't consistently applied.

I am not in any way expressing a lack of appreciation for all of the
excellent work done by NVDA developers and the time and effort it took. but
I am very frustrated when I see a feature that blind people have asked for
for more than five years being shown no interest because ideology dictates
that it shouldn't be considered. Also, if people feel that they should pull
their punches when discussing deficiencies in NVDA because they think that
gratitude should cause them not to discuss them or do so meekly and mildly,
they are not doing anyone any service.

Gene
From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 1:08 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various
modes


This message is rather long but that's because to explain my position takes
time and space. I have gone to the trouble because this has been an issue
of frustration to me for years.

I may be wrong when I thought that the main reason was that the developers
didn't want NvDA to give information sighted users don't have. But the
reason given, as far back as about 2009 was incorrect based on all my years
of experience with JAWS. I didn't use System Access long enough to make
such a statement but I did use it enough to say that I never saw an
inaccurate report in that screen-reader. I tested both screen-readers by
not having anything selected and using the copy and paste commands. In
those tests, neither screen-reader reported any action. the entire premise
given in about 2009 is incorrect. I shall provide a link to the brief
discussion I found. Perhaps I can find more discussion because this is such
a recurring request over the years. As I recall, Window-eyes at least for a
time, did use a key label to indicate copy and paste which would have been
inaccurate if nothing happened. It is the only popular screen-reader in
america that did this. I don't know what Dolphin (spelling) did. but I do
know that in my roughly twelve years of using JAWS, I never once got a false
report and in the times I used System Access, I didn't get a false report
either. I haven't received a false report using the NVDA add on for about
two weeks either and I was alerted that my attempt to copy a file to the
clipboard had failed, which saved me time and trouble.

I don't have to technical knowledge to assess if the developer of the add on
is correct in asserting that errors may occur when using his add on. I can
say with confidence that this feature can be accurate, based on twelve
years' experience with JAWS.

Here is the link to the discussion:
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/75

Aside from my previous objections, note the following quote:
This is an unreasonable expectation that can't, literally can't, be complied
with. When copying text to the clipboard, the speak clipboard feature can
verify that it has been copied. But when copying files or folders, there is
no way to check except to paste them where desired, only to find that
nothing was pasted because nothing was copied or the the wrong files and
folders from a previous copy to the clipboard were pasted in the wrong.
place.

Of course, it is desirable that users become confident and competent
computer users. but many times, I have properly issued the copy command and
I know I issued it correctly. I then tried to paste what I had copied to
find that I had copied nothing. This didn't just happen once or twice but
many times over a period of time when copying text or files and folders.

It is also much more efficient to hear a simple copied or copied to
clipboard when copying text than to have to issue the speak clipboard
contents command, listen for a moment to make sure that the material was
copied, then continue with what I was doing. And in the case of copying
large amounts of material, it isn't read. You are told how many characters
have been copied. Let's say you copy 23,374 characters to the clipboard,
then listen to the announcement of how many characters you copy by issuing
the speak clipboard contents command. You then paste it where you want it.
Then you copy other text to the clipboard, or attempt to. Is it reasonable
that the user should remember the number of characters he copied the last
time so that he can compare that number with the number he heard announced
after copying the new material? ans suppose the number is of similar or
rather similar size. Let's say I copy 23,374 the first time. Let's say that
the second time, I hear 23,265. Is it really reasonable that someone, while
writing something like a research paper, be expected to remember such
numbers whether they are similar or not?

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Quentin Christensen
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 11:44 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various
modes


Thanks Gene,


I hadn't specifically looked into the way other screen readers handled it.
The notes for ClipSpeak say: "In order to prevent announcement in
inappropriate situations, Clipspeak performs checks on the control and the
clipboard in order to make an informed decision as to whether such an
announcement is necessary. Because of this, Clipspeak's announcements may be
inaccurate."


The point is that add-ons like these react to the keystroke, check the
environment and whether the command (copy, paste etc) is theoretically
possible, and then gives the report. It is NOT confirmation that such an
action has taken place, which is why we are reluctant to add it to core. If
we could be sure of that, I'd be all for adding it to core. The argument
about sighted users not having a visual indicator actually isn't 100%
correct. There is nothing on screen to say text was copied or pasted,
however if you have text selected and you cut it, the text disappears
visually. If you paste text, then text suddenly appears in your document
(or wherever).


In the meantime, the clipspeak add-on works for the most part I believe.
Just to be clear, I was never having a go at those who use the add-on, my
suggestion to disable it was simply to take eliminate one possible variable
when investigating the original problem.


Regards


Quentin.


On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 2:27 PM, Gene <gsasner@ripco.com> wrote:

That isn't correct. I wrote about this a year or two ago when the topic
came up for discussion one of the times that it did. I tested JAWS and it
knows when information is copied, as does System Access, which I also
tested. I don't remember if I tested Window-eyes and, clearly, clip speak
does as well. If it didn't, I wouldn't see a no change message when no
change has occurred. Also, it would be a needless duplication of the fake
clipboard announcement add on that has been available for years.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Quentin Christensen
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 11:17 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various
modes


The reason why "cut", "copy", "paste" etc aren't always announced is
simply that just because that is the common use for control+x, control+c and
control+v respectively, we can't always tell whether anything was actually
cut, copied or pasted. To our knowledge, the way other screen readers which
do announce this do it, is the same way that clip speak does - they announce
it in most places because that is what usually happens, but it is possible
there was an error or something else which prevented it, in which case
telling the user text was copied is misleading. There is also the "speak
command keys" either via the keyboard preferences (NVDA+control+k) or
directly with NVDA+4. Note that NVDA does announce when text is copied in
certain situations, particularly when using the review cursor where it was
NVDA itself that copied the text.






On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 2:09 PM, Gene <gsasner@ripco.com> wrote:

I use a very old version most of the time because I like the way review
modes are offered in the interface as opposed to the newer versions. It
isn't an important diffference but since this version, one of the 13
versions, meets my needs and I prefer that part of the interface, I keep
using it.

I don't know what kind of problems you are having specifically and
whether I might have any suggestions.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: nasrin khaksar
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 9:50 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various
modes


hi gene.
i again forgot which version of nvda do you use?
i yesterday tested 2012.2 version of nvda and realized that nvda has
many inconsistency using farsi language and i did not see any of these
problems in flat review.
whats the solution for me?
thanks so much and God bless you!

On 8/17/17, Gene <gsasner@ripco.com> wrote:
> I'm not sure why this is, but based on my experience and on a message
or two
> from others, at times, Clip Speak causes odd things to happen. It
works
> well on my machine in general but when I use Freemake video converter,
Clip
> Speak doesn't allow me to paste a youtube address into the address
field. I
> assume that disabling it would stop the problem but the version of
NVDA I
> use is too old to have disable available. So I run a version of NVDA
> without Clip Speak installed and the problem disappears.
>
> I consider it well worth that slight inconvenience to get real time
and
> accurate feed back about copying and pasting. Once I was copying a
file, as
> I recall, and Clip Speak told me that there had been no change. I
don't
> recall what I did after that but I got it to copy by fooling around in
some
> way. Maybe I just opened and closed My Computer and went back to the
files
> list. If I hadn't been using Clip Speak, I would have gone through
the
> trouble of trying to paste a file that wasn't on the clipboard. I
would
> have failed and had to do more work. There is simply no way of
getting
> around it. This feature should be and should have been built into
NVDA from
> the outset. Not to do so is to allow ideology about what
screen-readers
> should and shouldn't do to override practical experience and common
sense.
> There are rare instances when screen-readers should tell blind users
things
> that a sighted person might not be informed of. That is the reason
I've
> always heard from developers about why the feature isn't in the
program,
> that Windows doesn't indicate to sighted users when copying and
pasting take
> place. Is that true? I was informed many years ago by a sighted user
that
> there is some sort of icon, as I recall. Whatever the case, that
argument
> is, in my strong opinion irrelevant.
>
> A lot of NVDA users will never know about this add on. And if the add
on
> had been incorporated into program code at the outset, the bugs we
are
> finding now would either not have existed or would have been worked
out
> long, long ago.
>
> I'm very pleased that the add on has been developed but I still very
> strongly believe that this feature should be and should have been
> incorporated into NVDA from the outset.
>
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Quentin Christensen
> Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 6:57 PM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in
various
> modes
>
>
> I wonder if it's that clipspeak program? If you try disabling /
quitting
> that and then copying text from WordPad does it still paste the
embedded
> object?
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 3:48 AM, Brian's Mail list account via
Groups.Io
> <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:
>
> Well, I'm just plain awkward, quite obviously. I do not like the
wordpad
> in 7. Its got ribbons I think and defaults to some strange file type.
> However, I find in word that if you paste in browse mode you get an
embedded
> object in focus mode it will work but clipspeak when active generates
a word
> out of memory error, which is totally spurious as it pastes in any
case.
> Brian
>
> bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
> Sent via blueyonder.
> Please address personal email to:-
> briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
> in the display name field.
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Quentin Christensen"
> <quentin@nvaccess.org>
> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 1:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in
various
> modes
>
>
>
>
> You're using Windows 7, and which version of Office? Are you
using the
> standard WordPad that comes with Windows or are you saying you've
> copied
> the version out of XP?
>
> I just tried it on Windows 10 using the build it WordPad and
Office
> 2016
> and everything worked as it should, but looks like that's a
completely
> different system to yours. I'll try on my WIndows 7 PC in the
morning.
>
> When Word starts, NVDA *should* be in focus mode. If you change
to
> Browse
> mode (NVDA+spacebar) then you shouldn't be able to type as it will
be
> looking for letters as single letter navigation keys to jump to
> elements.
> You can paste text in this mode but you really need to go into
focus
> mode
> to manipulate it.
>
> In Word's paste special options, which you can get to with
> control+alt+v,
> you can paste a "Wordpad document object" (after opening the
dialog,
> you
> need to press up arrow once then enter - at least in Office 2016).
That
> is
> basically an object box - like a picture or a text box or a chart,
in
> your
> document. Visually it looks like whatever text you copied out of
> WordPad,
> and when you activate or edit it, a Wordpad window opens with the
text
> inside.
>
> To edit / activate it, you can double click it with the mouse,
There
> doesn't seem to be a simple, equivalent keyboard shortcut that I
can
> find,
> but if you open the context menu, you can select "Wordpad
document
> object",
> then edit.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 7:31 PM, Brian's Mail list account via
Groups.Io
> <
> bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:
>
>
> OK, we have an rtf document in Wordpad
> We have a blank Microsoft word. When Word opens the mode is
> apparently
> normally in brose, but you can type into the file this way.
> However say you grab some text from Wordpad and attempt to paste
it
> into
> word. It does not work as expected, you end up with an embedded
object
> in
> the file.
> However if you switch word to focus mode, you can paste it in
as
> normal.
> Is this expected or a bug?
>
> Note here that since I have clipspeak involved, when I try to
paste
> in
> focus mode I get the out of memory warning which is bogus and
can be
> ignored due to who knows what.
> I'd be particularly interested in people with different versions
of
> operating systems wordpad and word, as I tend to use the xp
wordpad in
> 7
> and an older style ie normal menus, version of word. Everything
else
> seems
> fine. I just need to remember to switch modes. I'm just
wondering what
> the
> embedded object pasted actually is?
> Brian
>
> bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
> Sent via blueyonder.
> Please address personal email to:-
> briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
> in the display name field.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Quentin Christensen
> Training and Support Manager
>
> Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now
> available:
> http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
>
> Ph +61 7 3149 3306
> www.nvaccess.org
> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
> Twitter: @NVAccess
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Quentin Christensen
> Training and Support Manager
>
>
> Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now
available:
> http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
>
>
> Ph +61 7 3149 3306
> www.nvaccess.org
> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
> Twitter: @NVAccess
>
>


--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration is:
imam hosein is the beacon of light and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
al-islam.org










--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available:
http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/


Ph +61 7 3149 3306
www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess








--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available:
http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/


Ph +61 7 3149 3306
www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess

--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration is:
imam hosein is the beacon of light and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
al-islam.org


Re: NVDA API docs: updated to 2017.3 baseline/RC

Dennis L <dennisl1982@...>
 

It would be nice to have a change log and where to grab this file please.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 3:27 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] NVDA API docs: updated to 2017.3 baseline/RC

 

Hi all,

 

NVDA API docs has been updated to 2017.3 baseline/RC1. This houses documentation for NVDA source code docstrings as one would generate from the NVDA screen reader source code. The API docs are hosted on my website and can be found at:

http://www.josephsl.net/files/nvdadocs/dev/

 

Note that this is a supplement to the development guides published by NV Access and the add-ons community.

 

Key API changes in 2017.3 include:

 

  • Content Recognition module (contentRecog) has been added to allow OCR engines and their interfaces to provide text recognition services. At the moment only Windows 10 OCR is available.
  • UIA handler: three new UIA events are now recognized: controller for, system alert, and live region changed. Controller for is used to let a control depend on another for features such as auto-suggest accessibility, system alerts are used for various alerts, and live region changes are caught and announced by NVDA.
  • Events: three new events are added: event_liveRegionChange, event_suggestionsOpened, and event_suggestionsClosed. The new live region change event announces changes to live regions and objects can tell NVDA to ignore this event if needed. Suggestions opened and closed events are used to announce appearance of auto-suggest lists in various places such as various apps in Windows 10 and in Start menu, and are applicable in places such as auto-completion boxes in various IDE’s and others.
  • New behavior: NVDAObjects.behaviors.EditableTextWithSuggestions has been added for scenarios where documents and other edit fields provide search suggestions.
  • Unit tests and bug fixes: some bug fixes were possible thanks to unit tests included with NVDA. It is strongly recommended that you provide unit tests when you submit code contributions.
  • New Python library module: json (Javascript Object Notation) module is now part of NVDA, so add-ons don’t need to include this if compatibility with 2017.3 or later is desired. If you want to support older releases, you should continue to include json package.
  • Contracted and uncontracted braille input: as a result, it is no longer possible for braille display drivers to specify commands for backspace and enter keys, as dot 7 (backspace) and dot 8 (enter and translate text) will be used to perform these commands.
  • C++ side of things: NVDA now uses C++/CX (C++ with Component eXtensions) when calling Windows Runtime/Universal Windows Platform API. This is chiefly used to support Windows OneCore voices and to interact with universal OCR API. As a result, compiling with Visual Studio 2015 Express is no longer possible – at least VS2015 Community with Universal Windows Platform SDK support is required.
  • Less visible changes: User guide was made more user (and beginner) friendly, copyright headers were added for some files.

 

For users: I added the above API changelog to show two things: the work required to move NVDA to the next level, and to show the work involved when it comes to contributing to NVDA. This came about after a discussion on the users list about some folks wanting to contribute code to NVDA with little to no Python knowledge.

 

For add-on writers: keeping up with NVDA API changes is essential. This will become more important as we kick off Python 3 transition.

 

For developers: I was inspired by a discussion on the users list regarding code contributions and python’s own What’s New docs, thus I decided to write the changelog above. For a brief changelog, see “changes for developers” section in the what’s new document.

 

Cheers,

Joseph


Re: NVDA API docs: updated to 2017.3 baseline/RC

kavein thran
 

hello joseph,

thanks for the great work. Can I we have this in zipp?

On 8/17/17, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi all,



NVDA API docs has been updated to 2017.3 baseline/RC1. This houses
documentation for NVDA source code docstrings as one would generate from
the
NVDA screen reader source code. The API docs are hosted on my website and
can be found at:

http://www.josephsl.net/files/nvdadocs/dev/



Note that this is a supplement to the development guides published by NV
Access and the add-ons community.



Key API changes in 2017.3 include:



* Content Recognition module (contentRecog) has been added to allow
OCR engines and their interfaces to provide text recognition services. At
the moment only Windows 10 OCR is available.
* UIA handler: three new UIA events are now recognized: controller
for, system alert, and live region changed. Controller for is used to let a
control depend on another for features such as auto-suggest accessibility,
system alerts are used for various alerts, and live region changes are
caught and announced by NVDA.
* Events: three new events are added: event_liveRegionChange,
event_suggestionsOpened, and event_suggestionsClosed. The new live region
change event announces changes to live regions and objects can tell NVDA to
ignore this event if needed. Suggestions opened and closed events are used
to announce appearance of auto-suggest lists in various places such as
various apps in Windows 10 and in Start menu, and are applicable in places
such as auto-completion boxes in various IDE's and others.
* New behavior: NVDAObjects.behaviors.EditableTextWithSuggestions has
been added for scenarios where documents and other edit fields provide
search suggestions.
* Unit tests and bug fixes: some bug fixes were possible thanks to
unit tests included with NVDA. It is strongly recommended that you provide
unit tests when you submit code contributions.
* New Python library module: json (Javascript Object Notation) module
is now part of NVDA, so add-ons don't need to include this if compatibility
with 2017.3 or later is desired. If you want to support older releases, you
should continue to include json package.
* Contracted and uncontracted braille input: as a result, it is no
longer possible for braille display drivers to specify commands for
backspace and enter keys, as dot 7 (backspace) and dot 8 (enter and
translate text) will be used to perform these commands.
* C++ side of things: NVDA now uses C++/CX (C++ with Component
eXtensions) when calling Windows Runtime/Universal Windows Platform API.
This is chiefly used to support Windows OneCore voices and to interact with
universal OCR API. As a result, compiling with Visual Studio 2015 Express
is
no longer possible - at least VS2015 Community with Universal Windows
Platform SDK support is required.
* Less visible changes: User guide was made more user (and beginner)
friendly, copyright headers were added for some files.



For users: I added the above API changelog to show two things: the work
required to move NVDA to the next level, and to show the work involved when
it comes to contributing to NVDA. This came about after a discussion on the
users list about some folks wanting to contribute code to NVDA with little
to no Python knowledge.



For add-on writers: keeping up with NVDA API changes is essential. This
will
become more important as we kick off Python 3 transition.



For developers: I was inspired by a discussion on the users list regarding
code contributions and python's own What's New docs, thus I decided to
write
the changelog above. For a brief changelog, see "changes for developers"
section in the what's new document.



Cheers,

Joseph


NVDA API docs: updated to 2017.3 baseline/RC

 

Hi all,

 

NVDA API docs has been updated to 2017.3 baseline/RC1. This houses documentation for NVDA source code docstrings as one would generate from the NVDA screen reader source code. The API docs are hosted on my website and can be found at:

http://www.josephsl.net/files/nvdadocs/dev/

 

Note that this is a supplement to the development guides published by NV Access and the add-ons community.

 

Key API changes in 2017.3 include:

 

  • Content Recognition module (contentRecog) has been added to allow OCR engines and their interfaces to provide text recognition services. At the moment only Windows 10 OCR is available.
  • UIA handler: three new UIA events are now recognized: controller for, system alert, and live region changed. Controller for is used to let a control depend on another for features such as auto-suggest accessibility, system alerts are used for various alerts, and live region changes are caught and announced by NVDA.
  • Events: three new events are added: event_liveRegionChange, event_suggestionsOpened, and event_suggestionsClosed. The new live region change event announces changes to live regions and objects can tell NVDA to ignore this event if needed. Suggestions opened and closed events are used to announce appearance of auto-suggest lists in various places such as various apps in Windows 10 and in Start menu, and are applicable in places such as auto-completion boxes in various IDE’s and others.
  • New behavior: NVDAObjects.behaviors.EditableTextWithSuggestions has been added for scenarios where documents and other edit fields provide search suggestions.
  • Unit tests and bug fixes: some bug fixes were possible thanks to unit tests included with NVDA. It is strongly recommended that you provide unit tests when you submit code contributions.
  • New Python library module: json (Javascript Object Notation) module is now part of NVDA, so add-ons don’t need to include this if compatibility with 2017.3 or later is desired. If you want to support older releases, you should continue to include json package.
  • Contracted and uncontracted braille input: as a result, it is no longer possible for braille display drivers to specify commands for backspace and enter keys, as dot 7 (backspace) and dot 8 (enter and translate text) will be used to perform these commands.
  • C++ side of things: NVDA now uses C++/CX (C++ with Component eXtensions) when calling Windows Runtime/Universal Windows Platform API. This is chiefly used to support Windows OneCore voices and to interact with universal OCR API. As a result, compiling with Visual Studio 2015 Express is no longer possible – at least VS2015 Community with Universal Windows Platform SDK support is required.
  • Less visible changes: User guide was made more user (and beginner) friendly, copyright headers were added for some files.

 

For users: I added the above API changelog to show two things: the work required to move NVDA to the next level, and to show the work involved when it comes to contributing to NVDA. This came about after a discussion on the users list about some folks wanting to contribute code to NVDA with little to no Python knowledge.

 

For add-on writers: keeping up with NVDA API changes is essential. This will become more important as we kick off Python 3 transition.

 

For developers: I was inspired by a discussion on the users list regarding code contributions and python’s own What’s New docs, thus I decided to write the changelog above. For a brief changelog, see “changes for developers” section in the what’s new document.

 

Cheers,

Joseph


Re: I am interested in programming for NVDA

 

hi joseph.
i also wish that learn python to just learn nvda, help its
development, understand its codings, and solve my bugs which i see.

On 8/17/17, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,

I propose “beginningdevs” as the name of the subgroup, with the complete
email address being nvda+beginningdevs@groups.io
<mailto:nvda+beginningdevs@groups.io> with subject tag of
nvda-beginningdevs.

Cheers,

Joseph



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 11:53 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] I am interested in programming for NVDA



I see no reason that the list owner would object. Unless there is an
objection, I shall set up a new subgroup later today. I haven't done this
before and if I have any problems, I'll ask about them here but I don't
expect to have problems or not any problems I can't figure out. What,
Michael Lee, is your suggestion for a name for the subgroup? I'm asking
because I'm not sure just what its purpose is, to teach Python or to teach
python in a context of NVDA development.



Gene

----- Original Message -----

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: John J. Boyer <mailto:john.boyer@abilitiessoft.org>

Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 1:39 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

Subject: Re: [nvda] I am interested in programming for NVDA



I think a separate list is most apropriate. The developoment list shouldn't
be encumbered with questions from newbies
in programming. That said, I am willing to act as a mentor for a separate
list.

John

On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 09:02:59PM -0700, Hector Elias wrote:
Hi Joseph:

Is that an appropriate mailing list to conduct a discussion of learning
Python? Or should we create a separate list?

Thanks,

Hector
On Aug 16, 2017, at 8:58 PM, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com
<mailto:joseph.lee22590@gmail.com> > wrote:

Hi,
The most appropriate list to join is nvda-devel (hosted at SourceForge).
I'm not qualified to create a subgroup on this forum.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Lenron
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 8:55 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] I am interested in programming for NVDA

I would be up to joining this list as well. Alsways up for learning
something new.

On 8/16/17, nasrin khaksar <nasrinkhaksar3@gmail.com
<mailto:nasrinkhaksar3@gmail.com> > wrote:
hi.
i wish that learn python too.
here the email address of sally that you and james wanted.
Sally Kiebdaj<fiddle.pup@gmail.com <mailto:fiddle.pup@gmail.com> >

On 8/17/17, Hector Elias <hmelias09@gmail.com
<mailto:hmelias09@gmail.com> > wrote:
Correction I was able to find the e-mail, and I have e-mailed Sally
directly.

Hector
On Aug 16, 2017, at 6:58 PM, Hector Elias <hmelias09@gmail.com
<mailto:hmelias09@gmail.com> > wrote:

Hello:

I would be interested in joining this group. I have some Python
experience, and will be taking a course at my community college in a

few weeks. Syntax errors are usually caused because there is an
error when using the code. I have seen those courses and I found
that sometimes they would not describe the syntax correctly; which
lead to miss typing the code. Python is case sensitive, or you might

have missed a certain punctuation mark.

Sally, your e-mail doesn't show up on this thread. I only see the
mailing list address. Could you send us your e-mail?

Thanks,

hector Elias
On Aug 16, 2017, at 12:52 PM, Sally Kiebdaj <fiddle.pup@gmail.com
<mailto:fiddle.pup@gmail.com> >
wrote:

Hello all,


Thank you for the copious advice!


In the past, I tried MIT OpenCourseware and MITx 6.00 which are
both versions of their introduction to computer science course
taught in Python. I always ended up in the situation where
following the directions keystroke for keystroke generated a syntax

error and I had no one to ask for help. This is what I want to
avoid by having friends plugging away at it with me and experts on
hand for when we bog down.


If others are interested in finding a book/course and slogging
through it together, please reply to me privately and I am happy to

facilitate communication and coordination off list.


I would also be happy to work through any future NVDA specific
programming tutorials.


So, drop me a line if you would like to plod through this in a
group with me.


Hope to hear from some of you on this thread.


Regards,

Sally


On 8/13/2017 4:21 PM, John J. Boyer wrote:
You don't have to learn python the hard way. What you need is a
tutorial that assumes no probramming experience and no familiarity

with programming concepts. Manuals aren't it. They are for
programmers learning a new language. What is needed is a turorial
written by someone who has experience teaching programming from
the ground up.

John

On Sun, Aug 13, 2017 at 12:11:01PM -0700, J.G wrote:
Hi,

as I have written, beginners to programing should take a
tutorials/manuals, which are simple and explain python in plain
language so it can be understandable for all of us. I suggest
you:
https://learnpythonthehardway.org/ (
https://learnpythonthehardway.org/
)
there are books, which can help you self-teaching coding. these
are divided in cca 50 section - exercises. through them you can
begin to know how to programing.

warning: if you really want to code, you will have to train
yourself a lot.

hope this helps and that in this post I was clearer than in my
previous message.

regards, Jožef








--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration is:
imam hosein is the beacon of light and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
al-islam.org




--
Lenron Brown
Cell: 985-271-2832
Skype: ron.brown762







--
John J. Boyer
Email: john.boyer@abilitiessoft.org <mailto:john.boyer@abilitiessoft.org>
website: http://www.abilitiessoft.org
Status: Company dissolved but website and email addresses live.
Location: Madison, Wisconsin, USA
Mission: developing assistive technology software and providing STEM
services
that are available at no cost







--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration is:
imam hosein is the beacon of light and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
al-islam.org


Re: I am interested in programming for NVDA

 

Hi,

I propose “beginningdevs” as the name of the subgroup, with the complete email address being nvda+beginningdevs@groups.io with subject tag of nvda-beginningdevs.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 11:53 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] I am interested in programming for NVDA

 

I see no reason that the list owner would object.  Unless there is an objection, I shall set up a new subgroup later today.  I haven't done this before and if I have any problems, I'll ask about them here but I don't expect to have problems or not any problems I can't figure out.  What, Michael Lee, is your suggestion for a name for the subgroup?  I'm asking because I'm not sure just what its purpose is, to teach Python or to teach python in a context of NVDA development. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 1:39 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] I am interested in programming for NVDA

 

I think a separate list is most apropriate. The developoment list shouldn't be encumbered with questions from newbies
in programming. That said, I am willing to act as a mentor for a separate list.

John

On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 09:02:59PM -0700, Hector Elias wrote:
> Hi Joseph:
>
> Is that an appropriate mailing list to conduct a discussion of learning Python? Or should we create a separate list?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Hector
> > On Aug 16, 2017, at 8:58 PM, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> > The most appropriate list to join is nvda-devel (hosted at SourceForge). I'm not qualified to create a subgroup on this forum.
> > Cheers,
> > Joseph
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Lenron
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 8:55 PM
> > To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> > Subject: Re: [nvda] I am interested in programming for NVDA
> >
> > I would be up to joining this list as well. Alsways up for learning something new.
> >
> > On 8/16/17, nasrin khaksar <nasrinkhaksar3@...> wrote:
> >> hi.
> >> i wish that learn python too.
> >> here the email address of sally that you and james wanted.
> >> Sally Kiebdaj<fiddle.pup@...>
> >>
> >> On 8/17/17, Hector Elias <hmelias09@...> wrote:
> >>> Correction I was able to find the e-mail, and I have e-mailed Sally
> >>> directly.
> >>>
> >>> Hector
> >>>> On Aug 16, 2017, at 6:58 PM, Hector Elias <hmelias09@...> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Hello:
> >>>>
> >>>> I would be interested in joining this group. I have some Python
> >>>> experience, and will be taking a course at my community college in a
> >>>> few weeks. Syntax errors are usually caused because there is an
> >>>> error when using the code. I have seen those courses and I found
> >>>> that sometimes they would not describe the syntax correctly; which
> >>>> lead to miss typing the code. Python is case sensitive, or you might
> >>>> have missed a certain punctuation mark.
> >>>>
> >>>> Sally, your e-mail doesn't show up on this thread. I only see the
> >>>> mailing list address. Could you send us your e-mail?
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks,
> >>>>
> >>>> hector Elias
> >>>>> On Aug 16, 2017, at 12:52 PM, Sally Kiebdaj <fiddle.pup@...>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hello all,
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thank you for the copious advice!
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> In the past, I tried MIT OpenCourseware and MITx 6.00 which are
> >>>>> both versions of their introduction to computer science course
> >>>>> taught in Python. I always ended up in the situation where
> >>>>> following the directions keystroke for keystroke generated a syntax
> >>>>> error and I had no one to ask for help. This is what I want to
> >>>>> avoid by having friends plugging away at it with me and experts on
> >>>>> hand for when we bog down.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> If others are interested in finding a book/course and slogging
> >>>>> through it together, please reply to me privately and I am happy to
> >>>>> facilitate communication and coordination off list.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I would also be happy to work through any future NVDA specific
> >>>>> programming tutorials.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> So, drop me a line if you would like to plod through this in a
> >>>>> group with me.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hope to hear from some of you on this thread.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Regards,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Sally
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 8/13/2017 4:21 PM, John J. Boyer wrote:
> >>>>>> You don't have to learn python the hard way. What you need is a
> >>>>>> tutorial that assumes no probramming experience and no familiarity
> >>>>>> with programming concepts. Manuals aren't it. They are for
> >>>>>> programmers learning a new language. What is needed is a turorial
> >>>>>> written by someone who has experience teaching programming from
> >>>>>> the ground up.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> John
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Sun, Aug 13, 2017 at 12:11:01PM -0700, J.G wrote:
> >>>>>>> Hi,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> as I have written, beginners to programing should take a
> >>>>>>> tutorials/manuals, which are simple and explain python in plain
> >>>>>>> language so it can be understandable for all of us. I suggest you:
> >>>>>>> https://learnpythonthehardway.org/ (
> >>>>>>> https://learnpythonthehardway.org/
> >>>>>>> )
> >>>>>>> there are books, which can help you self-teaching coding. these
> >>>>>>> are divided in cca 50 section - exercises. through them you can
> >>>>>>> begin to know how to programing.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> warning: if you really want to code, you will have to train
> >>>>>>> yourself a lot.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> hope this helps and that in this post I was clearer than in my
> >>>>>>> previous message.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> regards, Jožef
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> we have not sent you but as a mercy to the creation.
> >> holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
> >> in the very authentic narration is:
> >> imam hosein is the beacon of light and the ark of salvation.
> >> best website for studying islamic book in different languages
> >> al-islam.org
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Lenron Brown
> > Cell: 985-271-2832
> > Skype: ron.brown762
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

--
John J. Boyer
Email: john.boyer@...
website: http://www.abilitiessoft.org
Status: Company dissolved but website and email addresses  live.
Location: Madison, Wisconsin, USA
Mission: developing assistive technology software and providing STEM services
        that are available at no cost




Re: Issues with NVDA after updating to Windows 10

David Diamond
 

I’ve had no issues when installing NVDA on my windows 10 computer. 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Alexander Masic
Sent: August 16, 2017 11:36 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Issues with NVDA after updating to Windows 10

 

Always when i do major updates like this you did. I always reinstall all aplications i am using. MS, screenreader and stuff. Yes, it takes plenty of time, But on other hand i can often sit beside when people have issues after utdate. It take longer time during the installation. but on a long term i belive I am the winner.   

Den 2017-08-17 kl. 06:33, skrev Quentin Christensen:

I remember NVDA working fine when I upgraded (early on).  Maybe something is different if upgrading now though?

 

On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 2:18 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

That's good.  We'll see what the developers say about where it is documented, if it is.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 10:28 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Issues with NVDA after updating to Windows 10

 

That seems to have fixed it. Thanks for the help!

It didn't occur to me that a reinstall would be necessary since all of
my other apps worked fine after the update. Perhaps it should be added
to the documentation somewhere.

Mike

On 8/16/17, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
> Try uninstalling and reinstalling NVDA.  According to comments I saw hear
> early during the Windows 10 introduction, that should be done when upgrading
> to Windows 10.  See if that solves the problems.
> Gene
> ----- original Message -----
>
> From: Michael Forzano
> Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 6:37 PM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: [nvda] Issues with NVDA after updating to Windows 10
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> I updated from Windows 7 to Windows 10 yesterday, and am having 2 issues:
> 1. NVDA no loger activates browse mode in Google Chrome (latest version).
> This was working fine on Win 7 yesterday, but now even the NVDA+Space
> command does not allow me to enter browse mode. Firefox is working fine.
> 2. I'm no longer able to use the editor in the Eclipse IDE. NVDA doesn't
> read any of the contents of the editor, and nothing is spoken when I use the
> arrow keys or any other navigation commands.
>
> I have Windows 10 on another computer and can confirm the Eclipse editor
> works fine there, so I have no idea what's going on here. Any pointers would
> be appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
> Mike
>

 

 

--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

 

Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

 

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 

 


Re: I am interested in programming for NVDA

Gene
 

I see no reason that the list owner would object.  Unless there is an objection, I shall set up a new subgroup later today.  I haven't done this before and if I have any problems, I'll ask about them here but I don't expect to have problems or not any problems I can't figure out.  What, Michael Lee, is your suggestion for a name for the subgroup?  I'm asking because I'm not sure just what its purpose is, to teach Python or to teach python in a context of NVDA development. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 1:39 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] I am interested in programming for NVDA

I think a separate list is most apropriate. The developoment list shouldn't be encumbered with questions from newbies
in programming. That said, I am willing to act as a mentor for a separate list.

John

On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 09:02:59PM -0700, Hector Elias wrote:
> Hi Joseph:
>
> Is that an appropriate mailing list to conduct a discussion of learning Python? Or should we create a separate list?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Hector
> > On Aug 16, 2017, at 8:58 PM, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> > The most appropriate list to join is nvda-devel (hosted at SourceForge). I'm not qualified to create a subgroup on this forum.
> > Cheers,
> > Joseph
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Lenron
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 8:55 PM
> > To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> > Subject: Re: [nvda] I am interested in programming for NVDA
> >
> > I would be up to joining this list as well. Alsways up for learning something new.
> >
> > On 8/16/17, nasrin khaksar <nasrinkhaksar3@...> wrote:
> >> hi.
> >> i wish that learn python too.
> >> here the email address of sally that you and james wanted.
> >> Sally Kiebdaj<fiddle.pup@...>
> >>
> >> On 8/17/17, Hector Elias <hmelias09@...> wrote:
> >>> Correction I was able to find the e-mail, and I have e-mailed Sally
> >>> directly.
> >>>
> >>> Hector
> >>>> On Aug 16, 2017, at 6:58 PM, Hector Elias <hmelias09@...> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Hello:
> >>>>
> >>>> I would be interested in joining this group. I have some Python
> >>>> experience, and will be taking a course at my community college in a
> >>>> few weeks. Syntax errors are usually caused because there is an
> >>>> error when using the code. I have seen those courses and I found
> >>>> that sometimes they would not describe the syntax correctly; which
> >>>> lead to miss typing the code. Python is case sensitive, or you might
> >>>> have missed a certain punctuation mark.
> >>>>
> >>>> Sally, your e-mail doesn't show up on this thread. I only see the
> >>>> mailing list address. Could you send us your e-mail?
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks,
> >>>>
> >>>> hector Elias
> >>>>> On Aug 16, 2017, at 12:52 PM, Sally Kiebdaj <fiddle.pup@...>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hello all,
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thank you for the copious advice!
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> In the past, I tried MIT OpenCourseware and MITx 6.00 which are
> >>>>> both versions of their introduction to computer science course
> >>>>> taught in Python. I always ended up in the situation where
> >>>>> following the directions keystroke for keystroke generated a syntax
> >>>>> error and I had no one to ask for help. This is what I want to
> >>>>> avoid by having friends plugging away at it with me and experts on
> >>>>> hand for when we bog down.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> If others are interested in finding a book/course and slogging
> >>>>> through it together, please reply to me privately and I am happy to
> >>>>> facilitate communication and coordination off list.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I would also be happy to work through any future NVDA specific
> >>>>> programming tutorials.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> So, drop me a line if you would like to plod through this in a
> >>>>> group with me.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hope to hear from some of you on this thread.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Regards,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Sally
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 8/13/2017 4:21 PM, John J. Boyer wrote:
> >>>>>> You don't have to learn python the hard way. What you need is a
> >>>>>> tutorial that assumes no probramming experience and no familiarity
> >>>>>> with programming concepts. Manuals aren't it. They are for
> >>>>>> programmers learning a new language. What is needed is a turorial
> >>>>>> written by someone who has experience teaching programming from
> >>>>>> the ground up.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> John
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Sun, Aug 13, 2017 at 12:11:01PM -0700, J.G wrote:
> >>>>>>> Hi,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> as I have written, beginners to programing should take a
> >>>>>>> tutorials/manuals, which are simple and explain python in plain
> >>>>>>> language so it can be understandable for all of us. I suggest you:
> >>>>>>> https://learnpythonthehardway.org/ (
> >>>>>>> https://learnpythonthehardway.org/
> >>>>>>> )
> >>>>>>> there are books, which can help you self-teaching coding. these
> >>>>>>> are divided in cca 50 section - exercises. through them you can
> >>>>>>> begin to know how to programing.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> warning: if you really want to code, you will have to train
> >>>>>>> yourself a lot.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> hope this helps and that in this post I was clearer than in my
> >>>>>>> previous message.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> regards, Jožef
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> we have not sent you but as a mercy to the creation.
> >> holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
> >> in the very authentic narration is:
> >> imam hosein is the beacon of light and the ark of salvation.
> >> best website for studying islamic book in different languages
> >> al-islam.org
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Lenron Brown
> > Cell: 985-271-2832
> > Skype: ron.brown762
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

--
John J. Boyer
Email: john.boyer@...
website: http://www.abilitiessoft.org
Status: Company dissolved but website and email addresses  live.
Location: Madison, Wisconsin, USA
Mission: developing assistive technology software and providing STEM services
        that are available at no cost





Re: Issues with NVDA after updating to Windows 10

Gene
 

You shouldn't have to reinstall all sorts of applications.  whenever this sort of problem has come up, only a reinstallation of NVDA was necessary.  If you install  all sorts of applications when you have no evidence that there are problems with them, you are doing a lot of work that has no basis in evidence.  People routinely have updated Windows when service packs used to be provided and they didn't reinstall programs in general.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 1:35 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Issues with NVDA after updating to Windows 10

Always when i do major updates like this you did. I always reinstall all aplications i am using. MS, screenreader and stuff. Yes, it takes plenty of time, But on other hand i can often sit beside when people have issues after utdate. It take longer time during the installation. but on a long term i belive I am the winner.   
Den 2017-08-17 kl. 06:33, skrev Quentin Christensen:
I remember NVDA working fine when I upgraded (early on).  Maybe something is different if upgrading now though?

On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 2:18 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
That's good.  We'll see what the developers say about where it is documented, if it is.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 10:28 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Issues with NVDA after updating to Windows 10

That seems to have fixed it. Thanks for the help!

It didn't occur to me that a reinstall would be necessary since all of
my other apps worked fine after the update. Perhaps it should be added
to the documentation somewhere.

Mike

On 8/16/17, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
> Try uninstalling and reinstalling NVDA.  According to comments I saw hear
> early during the Windows 10 introduction, that should be done when upgrading
> to Windows 10.  See if that solves the problems.
> Gene
> ----- original Message -----
>
> From: Michael Forzano
> Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 6:37 PM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: [nvda] Issues with NVDA after updating to Windows 10
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> I updated from Windows 7 to Windows 10 yesterday, and am having 2 issues:
> 1. NVDA no loger activates browse mode in Google Chrome (latest version).
> This was working fine on Win 7 yesterday, but now even the NVDA+Space
> command does not allow me to enter browse mode. Firefox is working fine.
> 2. I'm no longer able to use the editor in the Eclipse IDE. NVDA doesn't
> read any of the contents of the editor, and nothing is spoken when I use the
> arrow keys or any other navigation commands.
>
> I have Windows 10 on another computer and can confirm the Eclipse editor
> works fine there, so I have no idea what's going on here. Any pointers would
> be appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
> Mike
>





--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 



Important notice: Windows 10 app Essentials 17.08.2 is the last version to support NVDA 2017.2 and earlier #addonrelease

 

Ladies and gentlemen,

 

Those using Windows 10 App Essentials add-on stable builds may have noticed a prompt to update to version 17.08.2. Please do go ahead and update. More info can be found at:

https://github.com/josephsl/wintenApps/releases/tag/17.08.2

 

Few important announcements:

 

  • Windows 10 App Essentials 17.08.2 is the last version to support NVDA 2017.2 and earlier. This was a necessary decision as 2017.3 (now available as a release candidate) brings backwards incompatible changes to the code the add-on relied on, as well as integrating key add-on features into NVDA itself. The next stable version (hopefully 17.09) will absolutely require NVDA 2017.3.
  • The next stable version of the add-on will go out at least a week after release of NVDA 2017.3 final build (not RC).
  • Going forward, if you wish to change update channels via Windows 10 App Essentials dialog, you’ll need to say “yes” when a warning message appears, especially if switching from stable to development builds.

 

Thanks.

Cheers,

Joseph


Re: I am interested in programming for NVDA

John J. Boyer
 

I think a separate list is most apropriate. The developoment list shouldn't be encumbered with questions from newbies
in programming. That said, I am willing to act as a mentor for a separate list.

John

On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 09:02:59PM -0700, Hector Elias wrote:
Hi Joseph:

Is that an appropriate mailing list to conduct a discussion of learning Python? Or should we create a separate list?

Thanks,

Hector
On Aug 16, 2017, at 8:58 PM, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi,
The most appropriate list to join is nvda-devel (hosted at SourceForge). I'm not qualified to create a subgroup on this forum.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Lenron
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 8:55 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] I am interested in programming for NVDA

I would be up to joining this list as well. Alsways up for learning something new.

On 8/16/17, nasrin khaksar <nasrinkhaksar3@gmail.com> wrote:
hi.
i wish that learn python too.
here the email address of sally that you and james wanted.
Sally Kiebdaj<fiddle.pup@gmail.com>

On 8/17/17, Hector Elias <hmelias09@gmail.com> wrote:
Correction I was able to find the e-mail, and I have e-mailed Sally
directly.

Hector
On Aug 16, 2017, at 6:58 PM, Hector Elias <hmelias09@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello:

I would be interested in joining this group. I have some Python
experience, and will be taking a course at my community college in a
few weeks. Syntax errors are usually caused because there is an
error when using the code. I have seen those courses and I found
that sometimes they would not describe the syntax correctly; which
lead to miss typing the code. Python is case sensitive, or you might
have missed a certain punctuation mark.

Sally, your e-mail doesn't show up on this thread. I only see the
mailing list address. Could you send us your e-mail?

Thanks,

hector Elias
On Aug 16, 2017, at 12:52 PM, Sally Kiebdaj <fiddle.pup@gmail.com>
wrote:

Hello all,


Thank you for the copious advice!


In the past, I tried MIT OpenCourseware and MITx 6.00 which are
both versions of their introduction to computer science course
taught in Python. I always ended up in the situation where
following the directions keystroke for keystroke generated a syntax
error and I had no one to ask for help. This is what I want to
avoid by having friends plugging away at it with me and experts on
hand for when we bog down.


If others are interested in finding a book/course and slogging
through it together, please reply to me privately and I am happy to
facilitate communication and coordination off list.


I would also be happy to work through any future NVDA specific
programming tutorials.


So, drop me a line if you would like to plod through this in a
group with me.


Hope to hear from some of you on this thread.


Regards,

Sally


On 8/13/2017 4:21 PM, John J. Boyer wrote:
You don't have to learn python the hard way. What you need is a
tutorial that assumes no probramming experience and no familiarity
with programming concepts. Manuals aren't it. They are for
programmers learning a new language. What is needed is a turorial
written by someone who has experience teaching programming from
the ground up.

John

On Sun, Aug 13, 2017 at 12:11:01PM -0700, J.G wrote:
Hi,

as I have written, beginners to programing should take a
tutorials/manuals, which are simple and explain python in plain
language so it can be understandable for all of us. I suggest you:
https://learnpythonthehardway.org/ (
https://learnpythonthehardway.org/
)
there are books, which can help you self-teaching coding. these
are divided in cca 50 section - exercises. through them you can
begin to know how to programing.

warning: if you really want to code, you will have to train
yourself a lot.

hope this helps and that in this post I was clearer than in my
previous message.

regards, Jožef








--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration is:
imam hosein is the beacon of light and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
al-islam.org




--
Lenron Brown
Cell: 985-271-2832
Skype: ron.brown762







--
John J. Boyer
Email: john.boyer@abilitiessoft.org
website: http://www.abilitiessoft.org
Status: Company dissolved but website and email addresses live.
Location: Madison, Wisconsin, USA
Mission: developing assistive technology software and providing STEM services
that are available at no cost


Re: Issues with NVDA after updating to Windows 10

Alexander Masic
 

Always when i do major updates like this you did. I always reinstall all aplications i am using. MS, screenreader and stuff. Yes, it takes plenty of time, But on other hand i can often sit beside when people have issues after utdate. It take longer time during the installation. but on a long term i belive I am the winner.   
Den 2017-08-17 kl. 06:33, skrev Quentin Christensen:

I remember NVDA working fine when I upgraded (early on).  Maybe something is different if upgrading now though?

On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 2:18 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
That's good.  We'll see what the developers say about where it is documented, if it is.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 10:28 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Issues with NVDA after updating to Windows 10

That seems to have fixed it. Thanks for the help!

It didn't occur to me that a reinstall would be necessary since all of
my other apps worked fine after the update. Perhaps it should be added
to the documentation somewhere.

Mike

On 8/16/17, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
> Try uninstalling and reinstalling NVDA.  According to comments I saw hear
> early during the Windows 10 introduction, that should be done when upgrading
> to Windows 10.  See if that solves the problems.
> Gene
> ----- original Message -----
>
> From: Michael Forzano
> Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 6:37 PM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: [nvda] Issues with NVDA after updating to Windows 10
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> I updated from Windows 7 to Windows 10 yesterday, and am having 2 issues:
> 1. NVDA no loger activates browse mode in Google Chrome (latest version).
> This was working fine on Win 7 yesterday, but now even the NVDA+Space
> command does not allow me to enter browse mode. Firefox is working fine.
> 2. I'm no longer able to use the editor in the Eclipse IDE. NVDA doesn't
> read any of the contents of the editor, and nothing is spoken when I use the
> arrow keys or any other navigation commands.
>
> I have Windows 10 on another computer and can confirm the Eclipse editor
> works fine there, so I have no idea what's going on here. Any pointers would
> be appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
> Mike
>





--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 



Re: Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

Gene
 

I'll add that I have found, while preparing my messages in this thread, one instance where a misleading, though in a way literally accurate message is given. 
 
I copied a web page address to the clipboard from the address bar.  I then looked at the web page.  I had forgotten that I had copied the address and returned to the address bar.  On trying to copy the address, I received a no change message.  As far as I know, the information was copied to the clipboard again but because it was the same information, the add on reported no change.  This is the only misleading message I've gotten and I'm confident it can be corrected.  I never had such an occurrence in JAWS.  It simply announced copied to clipboard when something was copied twice because it was copied again.  It was the identical material and it replaced the previous identical material but it was copied.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 1:26 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

Here is the discussion I told you about where including a read clipboard contents command is debated. 
As I said, it was like pulling teeth to get this feature included.  I didn't read the entire discussion and I don't remember if anything was decided at that time.  but again the assertion is made, that is incorrect based on my years of experience, that when something is copied or pasted to or from the clipboard, that whether the events occurred or not can't be accurately determined.  I've already addressed this in my previous message.  but with this sort of rigid ideology, is it any wonder that this false assertion wasn't tested an evaluated and that no effort has been made to add copy and paste announcements to NVDA?  And in complete contradiction to this rigid ideology, why is there a links list in Browse Mode?  Why can this be altered to move by headings and other structures?  No sighted person has a links list or any other such structure.  So not only is this ideology rigid and in some cases obstructive, it isn't consistently applied. 
 
I am not in any way expressing a lack of appreciation for all of the excellent work done by NVDA developers and the time and effort it took.  but I am very frustrated when I see a feature that blind people have asked for for more than five years being shown no interest because ideology dictates that it shouldn't be considered.  Also, if people feel that they should pull their punches when discussing deficiencies in NVDA because they think that gratitude should cause them not to discuss them or do so meekly and mildly, they are not doing anyone any service. 
 
Gene
From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 1:08 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

This message is rather long but that's because to explain my position takes time and space.  I have gone to the trouble because this has been an issue of frustration to me for years. 
 
I may be wrong when I thought that the main reason was that the developers didn't want NvDA to give information sighted users don't have.  But the reason given, as far back as about 2009 was incorrect based on all my years of experience with JAWS.  I didn't use System Access long enough to make such a statement but I did use it enough to say that I never saw an inaccurate report in that screen-reader.  I tested both screen-readers by not having anything selected and using the copy and paste commands.  In those tests, neither screen-reader reported any action.  the entire premise given in about 2009 is incorrect.  I shall provide a link to the brief discussion I found.  Perhaps I can find more discussion because this is such a recurring request over the years.  As I recall, Window-eyes at least for a time, did use a key label to indicate copy and paste which would have been inaccurate if nothing happened.  It is the only popular screen-reader in america that did this.  I don't know what Dolphin (spelling) did.  but I do know that in my roughly twelve years of using JAWS, I never once got a false report and in the times I used System Access, I didn't get a false report either.  I haven't received a false report using the NVDA add on for about two weeks either and I was alerted that my attempt to copy a file to the clipboard had failed, which saved me time and trouble. 
 
I don't have to technical knowledge to assess if the developer of the add on is correct in asserting that errors may occur when using his add on.  I can say with confidence that this feature can be accurate, based on twelve years' experience with JAWS. 
 
Here is the link to the discussion:
 
Aside from my previous objections, note the following quote:
This is an unreasonable expectation that can't, literally can't, be complied with.  When copying text to the clipboard, the speak clipboard feature can verify that it has been copied.  But when copying files or folders, there is no way to check except to paste them where desired, only to find that nothing was pasted because nothing was copied or the the wrong files and folders from a previous copy to the clipboard were pasted in the wrong. place. 
 
Of course, it is desirable that users become confident and competent computer users.  but many times, I have properly issued the copy command and I know I issued it correctly.  I then tried to paste what I had copied to find that I had copied nothing.  This didn't just happen once or twice but many times over a period of time when copying text or files and folders.
 
It is also much more efficient to hear a simple copied or copied to clipboard when copying text than to have to issue the speak clipboard contents command, listen for a moment to make sure that the material was copied, then continue with what I was doing.  And in the case of copying large amounts of material, it isn't read.  You are told how many characters have been copied.  Let's say you copy 23,374 characters to the clipboard, then listen to the announcement of how many characters you copy by issuing the speak clipboard contents command.  You then paste it where you want it.  Then you copy other text to the clipboard, or attempt to.  Is it reasonable that the user should remember the number of characters he copied the last time so that he can compare that number with the number he heard announced after copying the new material?  ans suppose the number is of similar or rather similar size. Let's say I copy 23,374 the first time.  Let's say that the second time, I hear 23,265.  Is it really reasonable that someone, while writing something like a research paper, be expected to remember such numbers whether they are similar or not?   
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 11:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

Thanks Gene,

I hadn't specifically looked into the way other screen readers handled it.  The notes for ClipSpeak say: "In order to prevent announcement in inappropriate situations, Clipspeak performs checks on the control and the clipboard in order to make an informed decision as to whether such an announcement is necessary. Because of this, Clipspeak's announcements may be inaccurate."

The point is that add-ons like these react to the keystroke, check the environment and whether the command (copy, paste etc) is theoretically possible, and then gives the report.  It is NOT confirmation that such an action has taken place, which is why we are reluctant to add it to core.  If we could be sure of that, I'd be all for adding it to core.  The argument about sighted users not having a visual indicator actually isn't 100% correct.  There is nothing on screen to say text was copied or pasted, however if you have text selected and you cut it, the text disappears visually.  If you paste text, then text suddenly appears in your document (or wherever).

In the meantime, the clipspeak add-on works for the most part I believe.  Just to be clear, I was never having a go at those who use the add-on, my suggestion to disable it was simply to take eliminate one possible variable when investigating the original problem.

Regards

Quentin.

On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 2:27 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
That isn't correct.  I wrote about this a year or two ago when the topic came up for discussion one of the times that it did.  I tested JAWS and it knows when information is copied, as does System Access, which I also tested.  I don't remember if I tested Window-eyes and, clearly, clip speak does as well.  If it didn't, I wouldn't see a no change message when no change has occurred.  Also, it would be a needless duplication of the fake clipboard announcement add on that has been available for years. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 11:17 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

The reason why "cut", "copy", "paste" etc aren't always announced is simply that just because that is the common use for control+x, control+c and control+v respectively, we can't always tell whether anything was actually cut, copied or pasted.  To our knowledge, the way other screen readers which do announce this do it, is the same way that clip speak does - they announce it in most places because that is what usually happens, but it is possible there was an error or something else which prevented it, in which case telling the user text was copied is misleading.  There is also the "speak command keys" either via the keyboard preferences (NVDA+control+k) or directly with NVDA+4.  Note that NVDA does announce when text is copied in certain situations, particularly when using the review cursor where it was NVDA itself that copied the text.



On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 2:09 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
I use a very old version most of the time because I like the way review modes are offered in the interface as opposed to the newer versions.  It isn't an important diffference but since this version, one of the 13 versions, meets my needs and I prefer that part of the interface, I keep using it. 
 
I don't know what kind of problems you are having specifically and whether I might have any suggestions.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 9:50 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

hi gene.
i again forgot which version of nvda do you use?
i yesterday tested 2012.2 version of nvda and realized that nvda has
many inconsistency using farsi language and i did not see any of these
problems in flat review.
whats the solution for me?
thanks so much and God bless you!

On 8/17/17, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
> I'm not sure why this is, but based on my experience and on a message or two
> from others, at times, Clip Speak causes odd things to happen.  It works
> well on my machine in general but when I use Freemake video converter, Clip
> Speak doesn't allow me to paste a youtube address into the address field.  I
> assume that disabling it would stop the problem but the version of NVDA I
> use is too old to have disable available.  So I run a version of NVDA
> without Clip Speak installed and the problem disappears.
>
> I consider it well worth that slight inconvenience to get real time and
> accurate feed back about copying and pasting.  Once I was copying a file, as
> I recall, and Clip Speak told me that there had been no change.  I don't
> recall what I did after that but I got it to copy by fooling around in some
> way.  Maybe I just opened and closed My Computer and went back to the files
> list.  If I hadn't been using Clip Speak, I would have gone through the
> trouble of trying to paste a file that wasn't on the clipboard.  I would
> have failed and had to do more work.  There is simply no way of getting
> around it.  This feature should be and should have been built into NVDA from
> the outset.  Not to do so is to allow ideology about what screen-readers
> should and shouldn't do to override practical experience and common sense.
> There are rare instances when screen-readers should tell blind users things
> that a sighted person might not be informed of.  That is the reason I've
> always heard from developers about why the feature isn't in the program,
> that Windows doesn't indicate to sighted users when copying and pasting take
> place.  Is that true?  I was informed many years ago by a sighted user that
> there is some sort of icon, as I recall.  Whatever the case, that argument
> is, in my strong opinion irrelevant.
>
> A lot of NVDA users will never know about this add on.  And if the add on
> had been incorporated into program code at the outset, the bugs we are
> finding now would either not have existed or would have been worked out
> long, long ago.
>
> I'm very pleased that the add on has been developed but I still very
> strongly believe that this feature should be and should have been
> incorporated into NVDA from the outset.
>
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Quentin Christensen
> Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 6:57 PM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various
> modes
>
>
> I wonder if it's that clipspeak program?  If you try disabling / quitting
> that and then copying text from WordPad does it still paste the embedded
> object?
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 3:48 AM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
> <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:
>
>   Well, I'm just plain awkward, quite obviously. I do not like the wordpad
> in 7. Its got ribbons I think and defaults to some strange file type.
> However, I find in word that if you paste in browse mode you get an embedded
> object in focus mode it will work but clipspeak when active generates a word
> out of memory error, which is totally spurious as it pastes in any case.
>   Brian
>
>   bglists@...
>   Sent via blueyonder.
>   Please address personal email to:-
>   briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
>   in the display name field.
>   ----- Original Message ----- From: "Quentin Christensen"
> <quentin@...>
>   To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>   Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 1:04 PM
>   Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various
> modes
>
>
>
>
>     You're using Windows 7, and which version of Office?  Are you using the
>     standard WordPad that comes with Windows or are you saying you've
> copied
>     the version out of XP?
>
>     I just tried it on Windows 10 using the build it WordPad and Office
> 2016
>     and everything worked as it should, but looks like that's a completely
>     different system to yours.  I'll try on my WIndows 7 PC in the morning.
>
>     When Word starts, NVDA *should* be in focus mode.  If you change to
> Browse
>     mode (NVDA+spacebar) then you shouldn't be able to type as it will be
>     looking for letters as single letter navigation keys to jump to
> elements.
>     You can paste text in this mode but you really need to go into focus
> mode
>     to manipulate it.
>
>     In Word's paste special options, which you can get to with
> control+alt+v,
>     you can paste a "Wordpad document object" (after opening the dialog,
> you
>     need to press up arrow once then enter - at least in Office 2016).  That
> is
>     basically an object box - like a picture or a text box or a chart, in
> your
>     document.  Visually it looks like whatever text you copied out of
> WordPad,
>     and when you activate or edit it, a Wordpad window opens with the text
>     inside.
>
>     To edit / activate it, you can double click it with the mouse,  There
>     doesn't seem to be a simple, equivalent keyboard shortcut that I can
> find,
>     but if you open the context menu, you can select "Wordpad document
> object",
>     then edit.
>
>
>
>     On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 7:31 PM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
> <
>     bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:
>
>
>       OK, we have an rtf document in Wordpad
>       We have a blank Microsoft word. When Word opens the mode is
> apparently
>       normally in brose, but you can type into the file this way.
>       However say you grab some text from Wordpad and attempt to paste it
> into
>       word. It does not work as expected, you end up with an embedded object
> in
>       the file.
>       However if you switch word to focus mode, you can paste it in as
> normal.
>       Is this expected or a bug?
>
>       Note here that  since I have clipspeak involved, when I try to paste
> in
>       focus mode I get the out of memory warning which is bogus and can be
>       ignored due to who knows what.
>       I'd be particularly interested in people with different versions of
>       operating systems wordpad and word, as I tend to use the xp wordpad in
> 7
>       and an older style ie normal menus, version of word. Everything else
> seems
>       fine. I just need to remember to switch modes. I'm just wondering what
> the
>       embedded object pasted actually is?
>       Brian
>
>       bglists@...
>       Sent via blueyonder.
>       Please address personal email to:-
>       briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
>       in the display name field.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>     --
>     Quentin Christensen
>     Training and Support Manager
>
>     Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now
> available:
>     http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
>
>     Ph +61 7 3149 3306
>     www.nvaccess.org
>     Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
>     Twitter: @NVAccess
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Quentin Christensen
> Training and Support Manager
>
>
> Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available:
> http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
>
>
> Ph +61 7 3149 3306
> www.nvaccess.org
> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
> Twitter: @NVAccess
>
>


--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration is:
imam hosein is the beacon of light and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
al-islam.org





--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 




--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


Re: Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

Gene
 

Here is the discussion I told you about where including a read clipboard contents command is debated. 
As I said, it was like pulling teeth to get this feature included.  I didn't read the entire discussion and I don't remember if anything was decided at that time.  but again the assertion is made, that is incorrect based on my years of experience, that when something is copied or pasted to or from the clipboard, that whether the events occurred or not can't be accurately determined.  I've already addressed this in my previous message.  but with this sort of rigid ideology, is it any wonder that this false assertion wasn't tested an evaluated and that no effort has been made to add copy and paste announcements to NVDA?  And in complete contradiction to this rigid ideology, why is there a links list in Browse Mode?  Why can this be altered to move by headings and other structures?  No sighted person has a links list or any other such structure.  So not only is this ideology rigid and in some cases obstructive, it isn't consistently applied. 
 
I am not in any way expressing a lack of appreciation for all of the excellent work done by NVDA developers and the time and effort it took.  but I am very frustrated when I see a feature that blind people have asked for for more than five years being shown no interest because ideology dictates that it shouldn't be considered.  Also, if people feel that they should pull their punches when discussing deficiencies in NVDA because they think that gratitude should cause them not to discuss them or do so meekly and mildly, they are not doing anyone any service. 
 
Gene

From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 1:08 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

This message is rather long but that's because to explain my position takes time and space.  I have gone to the trouble because this has been an issue of frustration to me for years. 
 
I may be wrong when I thought that the main reason was that the developers didn't want NvDA to give information sighted users don't have.  But the reason given, as far back as about 2009 was incorrect based on all my years of experience with JAWS.  I didn't use System Access long enough to make such a statement but I did use it enough to say that I never saw an inaccurate report in that screen-reader.  I tested both screen-readers by not having anything selected and using the copy and paste commands.  In those tests, neither screen-reader reported any action.  the entire premise given in about 2009 is incorrect.  I shall provide a link to the brief discussion I found.  Perhaps I can find more discussion because this is such a recurring request over the years.  As I recall, Window-eyes at least for a time, did use a key label to indicate copy and paste which would have been inaccurate if nothing happened.  It is the only popular screen-reader in america that did this.  I don't know what Dolphin (spelling) did.  but I do know that in my roughly twelve years of using JAWS, I never once got a false report and in the times I used System Access, I didn't get a false report either.  I haven't received a false report using the NVDA add on for about two weeks either and I was alerted that my attempt to copy a file to the clipboard had failed, which saved me time and trouble. 
 
I don't have to technical knowledge to assess if the developer of the add on is correct in asserting that errors may occur when using his add on.  I can say with confidence that this feature can be accurate, based on twelve years' experience with JAWS. 
 
Here is the link to the discussion:
 
Aside from my previous objections, note the following quote:
This is an unreasonable expectation that can't, literally can't, be complied with.  When copying text to the clipboard, the speak clipboard feature can verify that it has been copied.  But when copying files or folders, there is no way to check except to paste them where desired, only to find that nothing was pasted because nothing was copied or the the wrong files and folders from a previous copy to the clipboard were pasted in the wrong. place. 
 
Of course, it is desirable that users become confident and competent computer users.  but many times, I have properly issued the copy command and I know I issued it correctly.  I then tried to paste what I had copied to find that I had copied nothing.  This didn't just happen once or twice but many times over a period of time when copying text or files and folders.
 
It is also much more efficient to hear a simple copied or copied to clipboard when copying text than to have to issue the speak clipboard contents command, listen for a moment to make sure that the material was copied, then continue with what I was doing.  And in the case of copying large amounts of material, it isn't read.  You are told how many characters have been copied.  Let's say you copy 23,374 characters to the clipboard, then listen to the announcement of how many characters you copy by issuing the speak clipboard contents command.  You then paste it where you want it.  Then you copy other text to the clipboard, or attempt to.  Is it reasonable that the user should remember the number of characters he copied the last time so that he can compare that number with the number he heard announced after copying the new material?  ans suppose the number is of similar or rather similar size. Let's say I copy 23,374 the first time.  Let's say that the second time, I hear 23,265.  Is it really reasonable that someone, while writing something like a research paper, be expected to remember such numbers whether they are similar or not?   
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 11:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

Thanks Gene,

I hadn't specifically looked into the way other screen readers handled it.  The notes for ClipSpeak say: "In order to prevent announcement in inappropriate situations, Clipspeak performs checks on the control and the clipboard in order to make an informed decision as to whether such an announcement is necessary. Because of this, Clipspeak's announcements may be inaccurate."

The point is that add-ons like these react to the keystroke, check the environment and whether the command (copy, paste etc) is theoretically possible, and then gives the report.  It is NOT confirmation that such an action has taken place, which is why we are reluctant to add it to core.  If we could be sure of that, I'd be all for adding it to core.  The argument about sighted users not having a visual indicator actually isn't 100% correct.  There is nothing on screen to say text was copied or pasted, however if you have text selected and you cut it, the text disappears visually.  If you paste text, then text suddenly appears in your document (or wherever).

In the meantime, the clipspeak add-on works for the most part I believe.  Just to be clear, I was never having a go at those who use the add-on, my suggestion to disable it was simply to take eliminate one possible variable when investigating the original problem.

Regards

Quentin.

On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 2:27 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
That isn't correct.  I wrote about this a year or two ago when the topic came up for discussion one of the times that it did.  I tested JAWS and it knows when information is copied, as does System Access, which I also tested.  I don't remember if I tested Window-eyes and, clearly, clip speak does as well.  If it didn't, I wouldn't see a no change message when no change has occurred.  Also, it would be a needless duplication of the fake clipboard announcement add on that has been available for years. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 11:17 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

The reason why "cut", "copy", "paste" etc aren't always announced is simply that just because that is the common use for control+x, control+c and control+v respectively, we can't always tell whether anything was actually cut, copied or pasted.  To our knowledge, the way other screen readers which do announce this do it, is the same way that clip speak does - they announce it in most places because that is what usually happens, but it is possible there was an error or something else which prevented it, in which case telling the user text was copied is misleading.  There is also the "speak command keys" either via the keyboard preferences (NVDA+control+k) or directly with NVDA+4.  Note that NVDA does announce when text is copied in certain situations, particularly when using the review cursor where it was NVDA itself that copied the text.



On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 2:09 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
I use a very old version most of the time because I like the way review modes are offered in the interface as opposed to the newer versions.  It isn't an important diffference but since this version, one of the 13 versions, meets my needs and I prefer that part of the interface, I keep using it. 
 
I don't know what kind of problems you are having specifically and whether I might have any suggestions.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 9:50 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

hi gene.
i again forgot which version of nvda do you use?
i yesterday tested 2012.2 version of nvda and realized that nvda has
many inconsistency using farsi language and i did not see any of these
problems in flat review.
whats the solution for me?
thanks so much and God bless you!

On 8/17/17, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
> I'm not sure why this is, but based on my experience and on a message or two
> from others, at times, Clip Speak causes odd things to happen.  It works
> well on my machine in general but when I use Freemake video converter, Clip
> Speak doesn't allow me to paste a youtube address into the address field.  I
> assume that disabling it would stop the problem but the version of NVDA I
> use is too old to have disable available.  So I run a version of NVDA
> without Clip Speak installed and the problem disappears.
>
> I consider it well worth that slight inconvenience to get real time and
> accurate feed back about copying and pasting.  Once I was copying a file, as
> I recall, and Clip Speak told me that there had been no change.  I don't
> recall what I did after that but I got it to copy by fooling around in some
> way.  Maybe I just opened and closed My Computer and went back to the files
> list.  If I hadn't been using Clip Speak, I would have gone through the
> trouble of trying to paste a file that wasn't on the clipboard.  I would
> have failed and had to do more work.  There is simply no way of getting
> around it.  This feature should be and should have been built into NVDA from
> the outset.  Not to do so is to allow ideology about what screen-readers
> should and shouldn't do to override practical experience and common sense.
> There are rare instances when screen-readers should tell blind users things
> that a sighted person might not be informed of.  That is the reason I've
> always heard from developers about why the feature isn't in the program,
> that Windows doesn't indicate to sighted users when copying and pasting take
> place.  Is that true?  I was informed many years ago by a sighted user that
> there is some sort of icon, as I recall.  Whatever the case, that argument
> is, in my strong opinion irrelevant.
>
> A lot of NVDA users will never know about this add on.  And if the add on
> had been incorporated into program code at the outset, the bugs we are
> finding now would either not have existed or would have been worked out
> long, long ago.
>
> I'm very pleased that the add on has been developed but I still very
> strongly believe that this feature should be and should have been
> incorporated into NVDA from the outset.
>
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Quentin Christensen
> Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 6:57 PM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various
> modes
>
>
> I wonder if it's that clipspeak program?  If you try disabling / quitting
> that and then copying text from WordPad does it still paste the embedded
> object?
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 3:48 AM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
> <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:
>
>   Well, I'm just plain awkward, quite obviously. I do not like the wordpad
> in 7. Its got ribbons I think and defaults to some strange file type.
> However, I find in word that if you paste in browse mode you get an embedded
> object in focus mode it will work but clipspeak when active generates a word
> out of memory error, which is totally spurious as it pastes in any case.
>   Brian
>
>   bglists@...
>   Sent via blueyonder.
>   Please address personal email to:-
>   briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
>   in the display name field.
>   ----- Original Message ----- From: "Quentin Christensen"
> <quentin@...>
>   To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>   Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 1:04 PM
>   Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various
> modes
>
>
>
>
>     You're using Windows 7, and which version of Office?  Are you using the
>     standard WordPad that comes with Windows or are you saying you've
> copied
>     the version out of XP?
>
>     I just tried it on Windows 10 using the build it WordPad and Office
> 2016
>     and everything worked as it should, but looks like that's a completely
>     different system to yours.  I'll try on my WIndows 7 PC in the morning.
>
>     When Word starts, NVDA *should* be in focus mode.  If you change to
> Browse
>     mode (NVDA+spacebar) then you shouldn't be able to type as it will be
>     looking for letters as single letter navigation keys to jump to
> elements.
>     You can paste text in this mode but you really need to go into focus
> mode
>     to manipulate it.
>
>     In Word's paste special options, which you can get to with
> control+alt+v,
>     you can paste a "Wordpad document object" (after opening the dialog,
> you
>     need to press up arrow once then enter - at least in Office 2016).  That
> is
>     basically an object box - like a picture or a text box or a chart, in
> your
>     document.  Visually it looks like whatever text you copied out of
> WordPad,
>     and when you activate or edit it, a Wordpad window opens with the text
>     inside.
>
>     To edit / activate it, you can double click it with the mouse,  There
>     doesn't seem to be a simple, equivalent keyboard shortcut that I can
> find,
>     but if you open the context menu, you can select "Wordpad document
> object",
>     then edit.
>
>
>
>     On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 7:31 PM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
> <
>     bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:
>
>
>       OK, we have an rtf document in Wordpad
>       We have a blank Microsoft word. When Word opens the mode is
> apparently
>       normally in brose, but you can type into the file this way.
>       However say you grab some text from Wordpad and attempt to paste it
> into
>       word. It does not work as expected, you end up with an embedded object
> in
>       the file.
>       However if you switch word to focus mode, you can paste it in as
> normal.
>       Is this expected or a bug?
>
>       Note here that  since I have clipspeak involved, when I try to paste
> in
>       focus mode I get the out of memory warning which is bogus and can be
>       ignored due to who knows what.
>       I'd be particularly interested in people with different versions of
>       operating systems wordpad and word, as I tend to use the xp wordpad in
> 7
>       and an older style ie normal menus, version of word. Everything else
> seems
>       fine. I just need to remember to switch modes. I'm just wondering what
> the
>       embedded object pasted actually is?
>       Brian
>
>       bglists@...
>       Sent via blueyonder.
>       Please address personal email to:-
>       briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
>       in the display name field.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>     --
>     Quentin Christensen
>     Training and Support Manager
>
>     Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now
> available:
>     http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
>
>     Ph +61 7 3149 3306
>     www.nvaccess.org
>     Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
>     Twitter: @NVAccess
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Quentin Christensen
> Training and Support Manager
>
>
> Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available:
> http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
>
>
> Ph +61 7 3149 3306
> www.nvaccess.org
> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
> Twitter: @NVAccess
>
>


--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration is:
imam hosein is the beacon of light and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
al-islam.org





--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 




--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


Re: Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

Gene
 

This message is rather long but that's because to explain my position takes time and space.  I have gone to the trouble because this has been an issue of frustration to me for years. 
 
I may be wrong when I thought that the main reason was that the developers didn't want NvDA to give information sighted users don't have.  But the reason given, as far back as about 2009 was incorrect based on all my years of experience with JAWS.  I didn't use System Access long enough to make such a statement but I did use it enough to say that I never saw an inaccurate report in that screen-reader.  I tested both screen-readers by not having anything selected and using the copy and paste commands.  In those tests, neither screen-reader reported any action.  the entire premise given in about 2009 is incorrect.  I shall provide a link to the brief discussion I found.  Perhaps I can find more discussion because this is such a recurring request over the years.  As I recall, Window-eyes at least for a time, did use a key label to indicate copy and paste which would have been inaccurate if nothing happened.  It is the only popular screen-reader in america that did this.  I don't know what Dolphin (spelling) did.  but I do know that in my roughly twelve years of using JAWS, I never once got a false report and in the times I used System Access, I didn't get a false report either.  I haven't received a false report using the NVDA add on for about two weeks either and I was alerted that my attempt to copy a file to the clipboard had failed, which saved me time and trouble. 
 
I don't have to technical knowledge to assess if the developer of the add on is correct in asserting that errors may occur when using his add on.  I can say with confidence that this feature can be accurate, based on twelve years' experience with JAWS. 
 
Here is the link to the discussion:
 
Aside from my previous objections, note the following quote:
This is an unreasonable expectation that can't, literally can't, be complied with.  When copying text to the clipboard, the speak clipboard feature can verify that it has been copied.  But when copying files or folders, there is no way to check except to paste them where desired, only to find that nothing was pasted because nothing was copied or the the wrong files and folders from a previous copy to the clipboard were pasted in the wrong. place. 
 
Of course, it is desirable that users become confident and competent computer users.  but many times, I have properly issued the copy command and I know I issued it correctly.  I then tried to paste what I had copied to find that I had copied nothing.  This didn't just happen once or twice but many times over a period of time when copying text or files and folders.
 
It is also much more efficient to hear a simple copied or copied to clipboard when copying text than to have to issue the speak clipboard contents command, listen for a moment to make sure that the material was copied, then continue with what I was doing.  And in the case of copying large amounts of material, it isn't read.  You are told how many characters have been copied.  Let's say you copy 23,374 characters to the clipboard, then listen to the announcement of how many characters you copy by issuing the speak clipboard contents command.  You then paste it where you want it.  Then you copy other text to the clipboard, or attempt to.  Is it reasonable that the user should remember the number of characters he copied the last time so that he can compare that number with the number he heard announced after copying the new material?  ans suppose the number is of similar or rather similar size. Let's say I copy 23,374 the first time.  Let's say that the second time, I hear 23,265.  Is it really reasonable that someone, while writing something like a research paper, be expected to remember such numbers whether they are similar or not?   
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 11:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

Thanks Gene,

I hadn't specifically looked into the way other screen readers handled it.  The notes for ClipSpeak say: "In order to prevent announcement in inappropriate situations, Clipspeak performs checks on the control and the clipboard in order to make an informed decision as to whether such an announcement is necessary. Because of this, Clipspeak's announcements may be inaccurate."

The point is that add-ons like these react to the keystroke, check the environment and whether the command (copy, paste etc) is theoretically possible, and then gives the report.  It is NOT confirmation that such an action has taken place, which is why we are reluctant to add it to core.  If we could be sure of that, I'd be all for adding it to core.  The argument about sighted users not having a visual indicator actually isn't 100% correct.  There is nothing on screen to say text was copied or pasted, however if you have text selected and you cut it, the text disappears visually.  If you paste text, then text suddenly appears in your document (or wherever).

In the meantime, the clipspeak add-on works for the most part I believe.  Just to be clear, I was never having a go at those who use the add-on, my suggestion to disable it was simply to take eliminate one possible variable when investigating the original problem.

Regards

Quentin.

On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 2:27 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
That isn't correct.  I wrote about this a year or two ago when the topic came up for discussion one of the times that it did.  I tested JAWS and it knows when information is copied, as does System Access, which I also tested.  I don't remember if I tested Window-eyes and, clearly, clip speak does as well.  If it didn't, I wouldn't see a no change message when no change has occurred.  Also, it would be a needless duplication of the fake clipboard announcement add on that has been available for years. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 11:17 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

The reason why "cut", "copy", "paste" etc aren't always announced is simply that just because that is the common use for control+x, control+c and control+v respectively, we can't always tell whether anything was actually cut, copied or pasted.  To our knowledge, the way other screen readers which do announce this do it, is the same way that clip speak does - they announce it in most places because that is what usually happens, but it is possible there was an error or something else which prevented it, in which case telling the user text was copied is misleading.  There is also the "speak command keys" either via the keyboard preferences (NVDA+control+k) or directly with NVDA+4.  Note that NVDA does announce when text is copied in certain situations, particularly when using the review cursor where it was NVDA itself that copied the text.



On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 2:09 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
I use a very old version most of the time because I like the way review modes are offered in the interface as opposed to the newer versions.  It isn't an important diffference but since this version, one of the 13 versions, meets my needs and I prefer that part of the interface, I keep using it. 
 
I don't know what kind of problems you are having specifically and whether I might have any suggestions.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 9:50 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

hi gene.
i again forgot which version of nvda do you use?
i yesterday tested 2012.2 version of nvda and realized that nvda has
many inconsistency using farsi language and i did not see any of these
problems in flat review.
whats the solution for me?
thanks so much and God bless you!

On 8/17/17, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
> I'm not sure why this is, but based on my experience and on a message or two
> from others, at times, Clip Speak causes odd things to happen.  It works
> well on my machine in general but when I use Freemake video converter, Clip
> Speak doesn't allow me to paste a youtube address into the address field.  I
> assume that disabling it would stop the problem but the version of NVDA I
> use is too old to have disable available.  So I run a version of NVDA
> without Clip Speak installed and the problem disappears.
>
> I consider it well worth that slight inconvenience to get real time and
> accurate feed back about copying and pasting.  Once I was copying a file, as
> I recall, and Clip Speak told me that there had been no change.  I don't
> recall what I did after that but I got it to copy by fooling around in some
> way.  Maybe I just opened and closed My Computer and went back to the files
> list.  If I hadn't been using Clip Speak, I would have gone through the
> trouble of trying to paste a file that wasn't on the clipboard.  I would
> have failed and had to do more work.  There is simply no way of getting
> around it.  This feature should be and should have been built into NVDA from
> the outset.  Not to do so is to allow ideology about what screen-readers
> should and shouldn't do to override practical experience and common sense.
> There are rare instances when screen-readers should tell blind users things
> that a sighted person might not be informed of.  That is the reason I've
> always heard from developers about why the feature isn't in the program,
> that Windows doesn't indicate to sighted users when copying and pasting take
> place.  Is that true?  I was informed many years ago by a sighted user that
> there is some sort of icon, as I recall.  Whatever the case, that argument
> is, in my strong opinion irrelevant.
>
> A lot of NVDA users will never know about this add on.  And if the add on
> had been incorporated into program code at the outset, the bugs we are
> finding now would either not have existed or would have been worked out
> long, long ago.
>
> I'm very pleased that the add on has been developed but I still very
> strongly believe that this feature should be and should have been
> incorporated into NVDA from the outset.
>
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Quentin Christensen
> Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 6:57 PM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various
> modes
>
>
> I wonder if it's that clipspeak program?  If you try disabling / quitting
> that and then copying text from WordPad does it still paste the embedded
> object?
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 3:48 AM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
> <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:
>
>   Well, I'm just plain awkward, quite obviously. I do not like the wordpad
> in 7. Its got ribbons I think and defaults to some strange file type.
> However, I find in word that if you paste in browse mode you get an embedded
> object in focus mode it will work but clipspeak when active generates a word
> out of memory error, which is totally spurious as it pastes in any case.
>   Brian
>
>   bglists@...
>   Sent via blueyonder.
>   Please address personal email to:-
>   briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
>   in the display name field.
>   ----- Original Message ----- From: "Quentin Christensen"
> <quentin@...>
>   To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>   Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 1:04 PM
>   Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various
> modes
>
>
>
>
>     You're using Windows 7, and which version of Office?  Are you using the
>     standard WordPad that comes with Windows or are you saying you've
> copied
>     the version out of XP?
>
>     I just tried it on Windows 10 using the build it WordPad and Office
> 2016
>     and everything worked as it should, but looks like that's a completely
>     different system to yours.  I'll try on my WIndows 7 PC in the morning.
>
>     When Word starts, NVDA *should* be in focus mode.  If you change to
> Browse
>     mode (NVDA+spacebar) then you shouldn't be able to type as it will be
>     looking for letters as single letter navigation keys to jump to
> elements.
>     You can paste text in this mode but you really need to go into focus
> mode
>     to manipulate it.
>
>     In Word's paste special options, which you can get to with
> control+alt+v,
>     you can paste a "Wordpad document object" (after opening the dialog,
> you
>     need to press up arrow once then enter - at least in Office 2016).  That
> is
>     basically an object box - like a picture or a text box or a chart, in
> your
>     document.  Visually it looks like whatever text you copied out of
> WordPad,
>     and when you activate or edit it, a Wordpad window opens with the text
>     inside.
>
>     To edit / activate it, you can double click it with the mouse,  There
>     doesn't seem to be a simple, equivalent keyboard shortcut that I can
> find,
>     but if you open the context menu, you can select "Wordpad document
> object",
>     then edit.
>
>
>
>     On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 7:31 PM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
> <
>     bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:
>
>
>       OK, we have an rtf document in Wordpad
>       We have a blank Microsoft word. When Word opens the mode is
> apparently
>       normally in brose, but you can type into the file this way.
>       However say you grab some text from Wordpad and attempt to paste it
> into
>       word. It does not work as expected, you end up with an embedded object
> in
>       the file.
>       However if you switch word to focus mode, you can paste it in as
> normal.
>       Is this expected or a bug?
>
>       Note here that  since I have clipspeak involved, when I try to paste
> in
>       focus mode I get the out of memory warning which is bogus and can be
>       ignored due to who knows what.
>       I'd be particularly interested in people with different versions of
>       operating systems wordpad and word, as I tend to use the xp wordpad in
> 7
>       and an older style ie normal menus, version of word. Everything else
> seems
>       fine. I just need to remember to switch modes. I'm just wondering what
> the
>       embedded object pasted actually is?
>       Brian
>
>       bglists@...
>       Sent via blueyonder.
>       Please address personal email to:-
>       briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
>       in the display name field.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>     --
>     Quentin Christensen
>     Training and Support Manager
>
>     Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now
> available:
>     http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
>
>     Ph +61 7 3149 3306
>     www.nvaccess.org
>     Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
>     Twitter: @NVAccess
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Quentin Christensen
> Training and Support Manager
>
>
> Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available:
> http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
>
>
> Ph +61 7 3149 3306
> www.nvaccess.org
> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
> Twitter: @NVAccess
>
>


--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration is:
imam hosein is the beacon of light and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
al-islam.org





--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 




--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


Re: Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

Quentin Christensen
 

Thanks Gene,

I hadn't specifically looked into the way other screen readers handled it.  The notes for ClipSpeak say: "In order to prevent announcement in inappropriate situations, Clipspeak performs checks on the control and the clipboard in order to make an informed decision as to whether such an announcement is necessary. Because of this, Clipspeak's announcements may be inaccurate."

The point is that add-ons like these react to the keystroke, check the environment and whether the command (copy, paste etc) is theoretically possible, and then gives the report.  It is NOT confirmation that such an action has taken place, which is why we are reluctant to add it to core.  If we could be sure of that, I'd be all for adding it to core.  The argument about sighted users not having a visual indicator actually isn't 100% correct.  There is nothing on screen to say text was copied or pasted, however if you have text selected and you cut it, the text disappears visually.  If you paste text, then text suddenly appears in your document (or wherever).

In the meantime, the clipspeak add-on works for the most part I believe.  Just to be clear, I was never having a go at those who use the add-on, my suggestion to disable it was simply to take eliminate one possible variable when investigating the original problem.

Regards

Quentin.

On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 2:27 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
That isn't correct.  I wrote about this a year or two ago when the topic came up for discussion one of the times that it did.  I tested JAWS and it knows when information is copied, as does System Access, which I also tested.  I don't remember if I tested Window-eyes and, clearly, clip speak does as well.  If it didn't, I wouldn't see a no change message when no change has occurred.  Also, it would be a needless duplication of the fake clipboard announcement add on that has been available for years. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 11:17 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

The reason why "cut", "copy", "paste" etc aren't always announced is simply that just because that is the common use for control+x, control+c and control+v respectively, we can't always tell whether anything was actually cut, copied or pasted.  To our knowledge, the way other screen readers which do announce this do it, is the same way that clip speak does - they announce it in most places because that is what usually happens, but it is possible there was an error or something else which prevented it, in which case telling the user text was copied is misleading.  There is also the "speak command keys" either via the keyboard preferences (NVDA+control+k) or directly with NVDA+4.  Note that NVDA does announce when text is copied in certain situations, particularly when using the review cursor where it was NVDA itself that copied the text.



On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 2:09 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
I use a very old version most of the time because I like the way review modes are offered in the interface as opposed to the newer versions.  It isn't an important diffference but since this version, one of the 13 versions, meets my needs and I prefer that part of the interface, I keep using it. 
 
I don't know what kind of problems you are having specifically and whether I might have any suggestions.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 9:50 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

hi gene.
i again forgot which version of nvda do you use?
i yesterday tested 2012.2 version of nvda and realized that nvda has
many inconsistency using farsi language and i did not see any of these
problems in flat review.
whats the solution for me?
thanks so much and God bless you!

On 8/17/17, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
> I'm not sure why this is, but based on my experience and on a message or two
> from others, at times, Clip Speak causes odd things to happen.  It works
> well on my machine in general but when I use Freemake video converter, Clip
> Speak doesn't allow me to paste a youtube address into the address field.  I
> assume that disabling it would stop the problem but the version of NVDA I
> use is too old to have disable available.  So I run a version of NVDA
> without Clip Speak installed and the problem disappears.
>
> I consider it well worth that slight inconvenience to get real time and
> accurate feed back about copying and pasting.  Once I was copying a file, as
> I recall, and Clip Speak told me that there had been no change.  I don't
> recall what I did after that but I got it to copy by fooling around in some
> way.  Maybe I just opened and closed My Computer and went back to the files
> list.  If I hadn't been using Clip Speak, I would have gone through the
> trouble of trying to paste a file that wasn't on the clipboard.  I would
> have failed and had to do more work.  There is simply no way of getting
> around it.  This feature should be and should have been built into NVDA from
> the outset.  Not to do so is to allow ideology about what screen-readers
> should and shouldn't do to override practical experience and common sense.
> There are rare instances when screen-readers should tell blind users things
> that a sighted person might not be informed of.  That is the reason I've
> always heard from developers about why the feature isn't in the program,
> that Windows doesn't indicate to sighted users when copying and pasting take
> place.  Is that true?  I was informed many years ago by a sighted user that
> there is some sort of icon, as I recall.  Whatever the case, that argument
> is, in my strong opinion irrelevant.
>
> A lot of NVDA users will never know about this add on.  And if the add on
> had been incorporated into program code at the outset, the bugs we are
> finding now would either not have existed or would have been worked out
> long, long ago.
>
> I'm very pleased that the add on has been developed but I still very
> strongly believe that this feature should be and should have been
> incorporated into NVDA from the outset.
>
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Quentin Christensen
> Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 6:57 PM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various
> modes
>
>
> I wonder if it's that clipspeak program?  If you try disabling / quitting
> that and then copying text from WordPad does it still paste the embedded
> object?
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 3:48 AM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
> <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:
>
>   Well, I'm just plain awkward, quite obviously. I do not like the wordpad
> in 7. Its got ribbons I think and defaults to some strange file type.
> However, I find in word that if you paste in browse mode you get an embedded
> object in focus mode it will work but clipspeak when active generates a word
> out of memory error, which is totally spurious as it pastes in any case.
>   Brian
>
>   bglists@...
>   Sent via blueyonder.
>   Please address personal email to:-
>   briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
>   in the display name field.
>   ----- Original Message ----- From: "Quentin Christensen"
> <quentin@...>
>   To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>   Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 1:04 PM
>   Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various
> modes
>
>
>
>
>     You're using Windows 7, and which version of Office?  Are you using the
>     standard WordPad that comes with Windows or are you saying you've
> copied
>     the version out of XP?
>
>     I just tried it on Windows 10 using the build it WordPad and Office
> 2016
>     and everything worked as it should, but looks like that's a completely
>     different system to yours.  I'll try on my WIndows 7 PC in the morning.
>
>     When Word starts, NVDA *should* be in focus mode.  If you change to
> Browse
>     mode (NVDA+spacebar) then you shouldn't be able to type as it will be
>     looking for letters as single letter navigation keys to jump to
> elements.
>     You can paste text in this mode but you really need to go into focus
> mode
>     to manipulate it.
>
>     In Word's paste special options, which you can get to with
> control+alt+v,
>     you can paste a "Wordpad document object" (after opening the dialog,
> you
>     need to press up arrow once then enter - at least in Office 2016).  That
> is
>     basically an object box - like a picture or a text box or a chart, in
> your
>     document.  Visually it looks like whatever text you copied out of
> WordPad,
>     and when you activate or edit it, a Wordpad window opens with the text
>     inside.
>
>     To edit / activate it, you can double click it with the mouse,  There
>     doesn't seem to be a simple, equivalent keyboard shortcut that I can
> find,
>     but if you open the context menu, you can select "Wordpad document
> object",
>     then edit.
>
>
>
>     On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 7:31 PM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
> <
>     bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:
>
>
>       OK, we have an rtf document in Wordpad
>       We have a blank Microsoft word. When Word opens the mode is
> apparently
>       normally in brose, but you can type into the file this way.
>       However say you grab some text from Wordpad and attempt to paste it
> into
>       word. It does not work as expected, you end up with an embedded object
> in
>       the file.
>       However if you switch word to focus mode, you can paste it in as
> normal.
>       Is this expected or a bug?
>
>       Note here that  since I have clipspeak involved, when I try to paste
> in
>       focus mode I get the out of memory warning which is bogus and can be
>       ignored due to who knows what.
>       I'd be particularly interested in people with different versions of
>       operating systems wordpad and word, as I tend to use the xp wordpad in
> 7
>       and an older style ie normal menus, version of word. Everything else
> seems
>       fine. I just need to remember to switch modes. I'm just wondering what
> the
>       embedded object pasted actually is?
>       Brian
>
>       bglists@...
>       Sent via blueyonder.
>       Please address personal email to:-
>       briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
>       in the display name field.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>     --
>     Quentin Christensen
>     Training and Support Manager
>
>     Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now
> available:
>     http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
>
>     Ph +61 7 3149 3306
>     www.nvaccess.org
>     Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
>     Twitter: @NVAccess
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Quentin Christensen
> Training and Support Manager
>
>
> Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available:
> http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
>
>
> Ph +61 7 3149 3306
> www.nvaccess.org
> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
> Twitter: @NVAccess
>
>


--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration is:
imam hosein is the beacon of light and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
al-islam.org





--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 




--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess