Date   

Re: 2017.3 RC1

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

I have those voices too. It would be nice to have a few more voices.

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ashley Wayne
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 5:54 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] 2017.3 RC1

 

I wish I had that many voice options lol.  For the OneCore voices I only have david, cira and mark.  I am liking david but other choices would be nice.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Quentin Christensen
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 6:42 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] 2017.3 RC1

 

Ok looking at mine:

 

If I set the Synthesizer to Microsoft Speech API Version 5.  In the Voice Settings I can choose:

- Microsoft David Desktop

- Microsoft Hazel Desktop

- Microsoft Zira Desktop

 

If I set the synthesizer to Windows OneCore Voices, I can go to Voice Settings and choose between:

- Microsoft David

- Microsoft George

- Microsoft Hazel

- Microsoft Susan

- Microsoft Catherine

- Microsoft Zira

- Microsoft Mark

- Microsoft James

 

The OneCore voices weren't available in 2017.2.  They have been in Next and Master builds for a little while.  I don't think Microsoft have changed the voices available in Windows 10 lately, but I'm running a fast insider build and I have English US, English Australian and possibly English UK languages installed with the appropriate speech packs.


Regards


Quentin.

 

On Fri, Aug 18, 2017 at 10:22 AM, brian <sackriderbrian45@...> wrote:

    Thats what I did and as I said there is only the one new voice mark.

Brian Sackrider

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On 8/17/2017 8:11 PM, Quentin Christensen wrote:

If you are on Windows 10, to get the new OneCore voices, open the synthesizer dialog - NVDA+control+s (or from NVDA's preferences menu) and select "Microsoft OneCore voices" rather than "Microsoft Speech API version 5".

 

 

On Fri, Aug 18, 2017 at 10:06 AM, brian <sackriderbrian45@...> wrote:

        I down loaded nvda 2017.3 and I noticed that the only new voice is Mark and when I set my speed to 80 thats the speed that I use it was not as fast as normally is. I did read the what's new and I did not hear really anything very earth shaking to me. So far I have not incounteredany problems.

Brian Sackrider 

 

On 8/17/2017 10:37 AM, Florian Ionașcu wrote:

Hello, you can download it from here. https://www.nvaccess.org/files/nvda/releases/2017.3rc1/nvda_2017.3rc1.exe

 

Trimis din Mail pentru Windows 10

 

De la: Don H
Trimis: joi, 17 august 2017 16:44
Către: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subiect: [nvda] 2017.3 RC1

 

Where do I go to get NVDA 2017.3 RC1?

 

 



 

--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

 

Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

 

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 

 



 

--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

 

Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

 

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 

 


Re: Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

 

On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 04:13 pm, Quentin Christensen wrote:
Just on your point about the system tray commands needing to be taught, I agree that people should know them, however exactly where to cover them is the issue.  They are not NVDA commands, therefore are not suitable to be put in the NVDA User Guide.  They do get a mention in the Basic Training for NVDA module since that does walk the user through learning how to use the computer as a whole with NVDA.
Quentin,

         Now I'm going to do one of my rare instances of having one foot on both sides of the fence.   As a screen-reader tutor for many years now it has been a constant battle to teach the actual field counselors who contract me that it is, literally, not possible to teach "how to use a screen reader" unless one is using a screen reader to do something that we who can see do with some program we use to do it.   A screen reader is a tool that has no useful function if it is not being used to manipulate something else.  Thus, in order to teach people how to use a screen reader you must, at the same time, be teaching (or re-teaching) them how to do the "something else" they do with it.

         But, and it's an important but, no one should expect the documentation for a screen reader to address every possible eventuality as far as using Windows goes.  In my own tutorial on using the ribbon interface in Windows via the keyboard (and, of course, with the presumption of a screen reader running) I cover it only for Windows Explorer and explicitly state that the principles discussed there apply to any program using a ribbon interface, because they do.  The point is to teach how to explore other stuff independently, not to cover every eventuality.

          Just as I have posted step-by-step instructions I've written for screen reader users on sites not focused on same, expecting that when I say something like, "ALT+T,R to open the Tools menu, References Dialog" a sighted user knows that means, "Click on the Tools menu and choose the References item," I conversely should be able to expect a screen reader user who is not entirely new to the game to read instructions written for the sighted and understand how those convert over to screen reader and/or Windows keystrokes.  I have gotten a lot more static for that latter presumption than I've ever gotten for the former, and if one does not know it's not impossible, or even all that difficult, to research the answer.  Most sighted users have no idea of anything beyond a few keyboard commands, if that.  But the idea that "click on" means "activate" is much more direct.

           You are correct that no documentation for any screen reader could or should cover every possible thing you do with Windows.  The really odd stuff that any of us use very infrequently, if at all, should be expected to require personal research regardless of one's ability to see or not.
 
--
Brian  Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1703, Build 15063  (dot level on request - it changes too often to keep in signature)

     The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement.  But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth.

            Niels Bohr

 

 


Re: I am interested in programming for NVDA

David Goldfield
 

I am also interested in joining a community of beginners to Python.

David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist Feel free to visit my Web site WWW.DavidGoldfield.Info

On 8/17/2017 1:39 PM, Sally Kiebdaj wrote:
Hello,

Alright then.

We will wait on a decision for the NVDA group and I will compile interested people by next week.

Once those two things are done, we can look at materials for learning.

Some things have already been suggested on this thread and we can discuss more once we have our own space that doesn't fill others inboxes.

Thanks again!
Sally

On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 1:36 PM, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...> wrote:

Hi,

I have asked Gene if we can have a subgroup for beginning devs.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Sally Kiebdaj
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 10:31 AM


To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] I am interested in programming for NVDA

 

Hello all,

sorry to respond only daily.

I have a nice mix of private and public messages now which I am happy to organize into a headcount.

As I understand our purpose, we are people with little or no programming background who want to learn programming through python. Some of us also want to eventually work on NVDA--provided we learn python successfully.

We are looking for some experience people to help coach. Some of the experienced people have a programming background but are learning python along with us and others have both programming and python experience.

To sum up, we are mostly starting from an intro to computer science angle as screen reader users who want to learn comp-sci through python and eventually contribute to NVDA.

Once I had a list of interested parties, I was going to email all to do a poll on how we want to communicate. google groups was going to be my default but there are also forums or other shared workspaces that might be easier for collaborative learning.

Although I do not have a programming background, I do have a coordinating background and am happy to be the organizing engine unless others strongly want to take this lead.

I defer to Joseph and others if an NVDA list is appropriate for the scope described above and will compile a list of people who have expressed interest by next week. I'll share that list with whomever is in charge by then, if it is not me.

Thanks all for the enthusiasm! It's good to get this idea off the ground.

Cheers,

Sally

 

On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 4:31 AM, Dennis L <dennisl1982@...> wrote:

Is that we subscribe?

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 2:55 AM


To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] I am interested in programming for NVDA

 

Hi,

I propose “beginningdevs” as the name of the subgroup, with the complete email address being nvda+beginningdevs@groups.io with subject tag of nvda-beginningdevs.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 11:53 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] I am interested in programming for NVDA

 

I see no reason that the list owner would object.  Unless there is an objection, I shall set up a new subgroup later today.  I haven't done this before and if I have any problems, I'll ask about them here but I don't expect to have problems or not any problems I can't figure out.  What, Michael Lee, is your suggestion for a name for the subgroup?  I'm asking because I'm not sure just what its purpose is, to teach Python or to teach python in a context of NVDA development. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 1:39 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] I am interested in programming for NVDA

 

I think a separate list is most apropriate. The developoment list shouldn't be encumbered with questions from newbies
in programming. That said, I am willing to act as a mentor for a separate list.

John

On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 09:02:59PM -0700, Hector Elias wrote:
> Hi Joseph:
>
> Is that an appropriate mailing list to conduct a discussion of learning Python? Or should we create a separate list?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Hector
> > On Aug 16, 2017, at 8:58 PM, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> > The most appropriate list to join is nvda-devel (hosted at SourceForge). I'm not qualified to create a subgroup on this forum.
> > Cheers,
> > Joseph
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Lenron
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 8:55 PM
> > To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> > Subject: Re: [nvda] I am interested in programming for NVDA
> >
> > I would be up to joining this list as well. Alsways up for learning something new.
> >
> > On 8/16/17, nasrin khaksar <nasrinkhaksar3@...> wrote:
> >> hi.
> >> i wish that learn python too.
> >> here the email address of sally that you and james wanted.
> >> Sally Kiebdaj<fiddle.pup@...>
> >>
> >> On 8/17/17, Hector Elias <hmelias09@...> wrote:
> >>> Correction I was able to find the e-mail, and I have e-mailed Sally
> >>> directly.
> >>>
> >>> Hector
> >>>> On Aug 16, 2017, at 6:58 PM, Hector Elias <hmelias09@...> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Hello:
> >>>>
> >>>> I would be interested in joining this group. I have some Python
> >>>> experience, and will be taking a course at my community college in a
> >>>> few weeks. Syntax errors are usually caused because there is an
> >>>> error when using the code. I have seen those courses and I found
> >>>> that sometimes they would not describe the syntax correctly; which
> >>>> lead to miss typing the code. Python is case sensitive, or you might
> >>>> have missed a certain punctuation mark.
> >>>>
> >>>> Sally, your e-mail doesn't show up on this thread. I only see the
> >>>> mailing list address. Could you send us your e-mail?
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks,
> >>>>
> >>>> hector Elias
> >>>>> On Aug 16, 2017, at 12:52 PM, Sally Kiebdaj <fiddle.pup@...>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hello all,
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thank you for the copious advice!
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> In the past, I tried MIT OpenCourseware and MITx 6.00 which are
> >>>>> both versions of their introduction to computer science course
> >>>>> taught in Python. I always ended up in the situation where
> >>>>> following the directions keystroke for keystroke generated a syntax
> >>>>> error and I had no one to ask for help. This is what I want to
> >>>>> avoid by having friends plugging away at it with me and experts on
> >>>>> hand for when we bog down.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> If others are interested in finding a book/course and slogging
> >>>>> through it together, please reply to me privately and I am happy to
> >>>>> facilitate communication and coordination off list.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I would also be happy to work through any future NVDA specific
> >>>>> programming tutorials.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> So, drop me a line if you would like to plod through this in a
> >>>>> group with me.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hope to hear from some of you on this thread.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Regards,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Sally
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 8/13/2017 4:21 PM, John J. Boyer wrote:
> >>>>>> You don't have to learn python the hard way. What you need is a
> >>>>>> tutorial that assumes no probramming experience and no familiarity
> >>>>>> with programming concepts. Manuals aren't it. They are for
> >>>>>> programmers learning a new language. What is needed is a turorial
> >>>>>> written by someone who has experience teaching programming from
> >>>>>> the ground up.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> John
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Sun, Aug 13, 2017 at 12:11:01PM -0700, J.G wrote:
> >>>>>>> Hi,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> as I have written, beginners to programing should take a
> >>>>>>> tutorials/manuals, which are simple and explain python in plain
> >>>>>>> language so it can be understandable for all of us. I suggest you:
> >>>>>>> https://learnpythonthehardway.org/ (
> >>>>>>> https://learnpythonthehardway.org/
> >>>>>>> )
> >>>>>>> there are books, which can help you self-teaching coding. these
> >>>>>>> are divided in cca 50 section - exercises. through them you can
> >>>>>>> begin to know how to programing.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> warning: if you really want to code, you will have to train
> >>>>>>> yourself a lot.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> hope this helps and that in this post I was clearer than in my
> >>>>>>> previous message.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> regards, Jožef
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> we have not sent you but as a mercy to the creation.
> >> holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
> >> in the very authentic narration is:
> >> imam hosein is the beacon of light and the ark of salvation.
> >> best website for studying islamic book in different languages
> >> al-islam.org
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Lenron Brown
> > Cell: 985-271-2832
> > Skype: ron.brown762
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

--
John J. Boyer
Email: john.boyer@...
website: http://www.abilitiessoft.org
Status: Company dissolved but website and email addresses  live.
Location: Madison, Wisconsin, USA
Mission: developing assistive technology software and providing STEM services
        that are available at no cost

 




Re: 2017.3 RC1

Ashley Wayne
 

I wish I had that many voice options lol.  For the OneCore voices I only have david, cira and mark.  I am liking david but other choices would be nice.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Quentin Christensen
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 6:42 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] 2017.3 RC1

 

Ok looking at mine:

 

If I set the Synthesizer to Microsoft Speech API Version 5.  In the Voice Settings I can choose:

- Microsoft David Desktop

- Microsoft Hazel Desktop

- Microsoft Zira Desktop

 

If I set the synthesizer to Windows OneCore Voices, I can go to Voice Settings and choose between:

- Microsoft David

- Microsoft George

- Microsoft Hazel

- Microsoft Susan

- Microsoft Catherine

- Microsoft Zira

- Microsoft Mark

- Microsoft James

 

The OneCore voices weren't available in 2017.2.  They have been in Next and Master builds for a little while.  I don't think Microsoft have changed the voices available in Windows 10 lately, but I'm running a fast insider build and I have English US, English Australian and possibly English UK languages installed with the appropriate speech packs.


Regards


Quentin.

 

On Fri, Aug 18, 2017 at 10:22 AM, brian <sackriderbrian45@...> wrote:

    Thats what I did and as I said there is only the one new voice mark.

Brian Sackrider

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On 8/17/2017 8:11 PM, Quentin Christensen wrote:

If you are on Windows 10, to get the new OneCore voices, open the synthesizer dialog - NVDA+control+s (or from NVDA's preferences menu) and select "Microsoft OneCore voices" rather than "Microsoft Speech API version 5".

 

 

On Fri, Aug 18, 2017 at 10:06 AM, brian <sackriderbrian45@...> wrote:

        I down loaded nvda 2017.3 and I noticed that the only new voice is Mark and when I set my speed to 80 thats the speed that I use it was not as fast as normally is. I did read the what's new and I did not hear really anything very earth shaking to me. So far I have not incounteredany problems.

Brian Sackrider 

 

On 8/17/2017 10:37 AM, Florian Ionașcu wrote:

Hello, you can download it from here. https://www.nvaccess.org/files/nvda/releases/2017.3rc1/nvda_2017.3rc1.exe

 

Trimis din Mail pentru Windows 10

 

De la: Don H
Trimis: joi, 17 august 2017 16:44
Către: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subiect: [nvda] 2017.3 RC1

 

Where do I go to get NVDA 2017.3 RC1?


 

 



 

--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

 

Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

 

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 

 



 

--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

 

Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

 

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 

 


Re: Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

Rui Fontes
 

Gene and Quentin, I understand both positions...
I send this message also to NVDA development and translation list, since it will affect both...


We really need to teach some basic stuff to the new users, like:
- Basic Windows configurations of Windows to be more user friendly;
- How to select files, contiguous or not;
- How to rename files;
- How to access and use Desktop, Taskbar and Systray;
- Etc.

How to do it?
1 - Selling the Basic Training for NVDA.
It is good since allows NV Access to have some more ressources to keep NVDA alive and growing, but it is bad since is not translated and it is not monetary accessible to some users...

2 - Including in NVDA User Guide.
It will be good, since it will be translated and accessible for everybody.
But it will bring lots of work to all translators, and no one can assure that users will read it... Most users do not read manuals!
Some minuts ago I have pasted the Word section of the User Guide for a user wanting to know how to read comments in Word...!

3 - Including hint messages in NVDA, like Jaws have.
I think it is the better way, since it will be turned on by default, and the users will turn it off when they became more knowledgeable.
I don't know how difficult to implement it will be, but for me it is the better way, except for the Windows basic configuration...

Best regards,

Rui Fontes


Microsoft Word
Leitura Automática de Títulos de Coluna e Linha
Nome
Comando de Teclado
Descrição
Definir títulos de coluna
NVDA+shift+c
Ao pressionar uma vez, indica ao NVDA que esta é a primeira célula de título na linha que contém os títulos de coluna, que deverão ser automaticamente anunciados ao mover-se entre colunas abaixo desta linha. Ao pressionar duas vezes irá apagar a definição.
Definir títulos de linha
NVDA+shift+r
Ao pressionar uma vez, indica ao NVDA que esta é a primeira célula de título na coluna que contem os títulos de linha, que deverão ser automaticamente anunciados ao mover-se entre linhas após esta coluna. Ao pressionar duas vezes apagará a definição.
Modo de Navegação no Microsoft Word
Para alternar entre o Modo de Navegação activado ou desactivado no Microsoft Word, pressione NVDA+Espaço.
A lista de Elementos
Em Modo de Navegação no Microsoft Word, pode invocar a Lista de Elementos pressionando NVDA+f7.
Anúncio de Comentários
Para anunciar quaisquer comentários na posição actual do cursor de inserção, pressione NVDA+alt+c.

-----Mensagem Original-----
De: Gene
Data: 18 de agosto de 2017 01:18
Para: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Assunto: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes


If you use the space bar on the WIFI icon, it will very likely work correctly.
This is more evidence that the number of Windows users who know the system tray commands Is small, I wouldn't be surprised if it is only roughly ten or fifteen percent of users. I don't expect the NVDA manual to teach Windows but every rule has its exceptions and a discussion of use of the system tray should be in the manual.

Gene
----- original Message -----
From: Rui Fontes
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 6:31 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

Hello!

I, with the help of Rui Batista, was the creator of Systray addon.
I now perfectly how to work with the systray using the proper commands, but
due to some problems accessing some items on the systray, like the conexions
icon, wich sometimes open the Network Flyout, I don't know if it is a menu
or a window, but after being open, it is very difficult to interage with the
systray...

Regarding the absence of any information about how to work with the systray
is due to NVDA manual only abord the use of special NVDA commands for a few
specificapps.
Maybe it is time to include some basic tutorials about Windows in general,
File manager, etc...

Rui


-----Mensagem Original-----
De: Gene
Data: 17 de agosto de 2017 13:02
Para: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Assunto: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various
modes


This message is long but those interested in the system tray question may
wish to read it. Also, commands are given for using the system tray
directly that most NVDA users don't know.

The system tray isn't perfectly accessible directly. At least that used to
be the case. I don't know if users would still report problems if surveyed.
I've seen instances where just using the system tray directly doesn't work
properly and using the dialog does. Until there are no such instances, even
though they are rare, the argument of equal accessibility is not valid.

I don't remember the specific one or two instances I saw quite some time ago
but I did see them. In addition, rarely, something is such an expected
feature and so completely incorporated into screen-readers in general, that
it amounts to stubborn ideology not to include it. the system tray dialog
is an example, perhaps almost the only example I know of. Where I live the
street Goethe is pronounced Go Thee. This is incorrect according to German
pronunciation and the playwright's name should be pronounced gurta, as an
approximation. But even radio stations here that are extremely demanding
about proper pronunciation pronounce it Go thee when giving addresses or
discussing the street. There are just certain times when something is so
entrenched that you just do it.

The system tray dialog wasn't originally adopted by screen-reader developers
as a means of discouraging use of an existing Windows structure. When first
adopted during Windows 98, the system tray was completely inaccessible.
Microsoft later made it accessible but by that time, the dialog had become
very entrenched and it was continued. If we were starting over and the
system tray was accessible from the outset, a good argument could be made
for direct access and no dialog. It can't be made now and the dialog should
be a part of NVDA, not an attachment.

Also, using the system tray is not, unless the manual has changed, properly
documented. I've looked at this off and on over the years to see if the
manual has changed and it never has. I haven't checked recently. Using the
system tray directly is mentioned but the necessary commands are not given
nor is there a special section, linked to as a section, that discusses this.
Since very few blind people will know the necessary commands, a problem is
created for them with no solution given.

Unless the following commands are given, the discussion of using the system
tray in the manual or in any tutorials is almost useless.

Enter is double left click.
Space bar is single left click.
the context menu key is right single click.
You can move through the system tray using single letter navigation or by
left and right arrowing through the items.
Windows key b is the short cut to move to the system tray.
All this is necessary to be explained in a section specifically dedicated to
working directly with the system tray.

Also, there was a problem in Windows 7 which I don't know if it exists in
Windows 8 or 10 but if it does, it also belies the system tray works
perfectly directly argument in those versions of Windows. It certainly
doesn't work perfectly in this respect in Windows 7.
In Windows 7, when you start a new Windows session and you are arrowing
through the system tray, when you get to the connections are available WIFI
icon, something is opened just by moving to it which shouldn't be opened. I
don't recall now just what it is but it may be a menu. As I recall, if you
close the menu, it doesn't open automatically again for the rest of the
Windows session but that is not what I would call a compelling behavior that
encourages blind people to use the system tray directly.

A general standard for when to make and not make changes and provide extra
features is fine and I believe that adding features should be considered
with care. But no ideological position addresses all situations correctly.

While NVDA generally follows good guidelines in my opinion on such matters,
the rare occasions when it doesn't, may cause unnecessary problems for a lot
of users and present little or no benefits in not adopting something.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Quentin Christensen
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 3:23 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various
modes

Hi Gene,

Thanks for all that info! I don't have a problem with someone coming out
and saying where NVDA has deficiencies (ideally, do it here where it is
among the community, or by e-mail to us, where those with a direct interest
in NVDA can discuss it civilly, rather than in an external public forum,
preferably).

It's certainly true that when a feature is requested, one of the questions
to be answered is "what information do sighted users receive visually?"
Whatever the answer is, doesn't necessarily mean the feature is not
worthwhile or warranted. I would argue that, where possible and efficient,
it's preferable to perform the same tasks as sighted users, or using
standard keystrokes rather than reinventing the wheel. A good example is
accessing the system tray. Some other screen readers have a command to
present the contents of the system tray in a new window, NVDA does not. The
reason we don't, is that the contents of the system tray are already
perfectly accessible with the WINDOWS+B command. The advantage of a
dedicated window is that you guarantee you have all the icons there, where
depending on your setup, using WINDOWS+B you may need to move to the
"overflow" area, or else know how to set the option to always show all
icons.

There was a question in that issue thread you posted, about well, why does
NVDA have an elements list dialog? That's a good example where yes you
could get around a web page with tab and / or the arrow keys, but it
wouldn't be efficient, and it would make accessing the web very burdensome.
In addition, sighted users can jump directly to parts of the page using the
mouse - either by clicking on a form field such as an edit box, or by
scrolling the page down in which case their eyes instantly jump to prominent
features such as headings. Back to the system tray, the sighted user will
likely use the mouse rather than WINOWS+B, but the result is the same and
for similar effort - the focus moves to the system tray, where they can left
or right click (enter or applications key) on an icon to access its
features.

Back to the specific question in this thread, which is announcing when text
has been copied, cut or pasted. The last conversation I had on the issue
was, as I said before, that the way I believed tools such as clipspeak do
it, was not truly by knowing that something has been copied, but by
evaluating where the focus was, and what was selected as to whether
something was likely to have been copied. That may in virtually all
situations, and if so, there may be a question of "is that good enough"?

If you believe things have progressed or you can bring a new argument in
favour, I'd encourage you to create a new GitHub issue.

Personally, I think since NVDA has the ability to read the clipboard
contents, then announcing when things are copied or pasted is a natural
enough progression, as long as it can be done accurately and without undue
overhead.

I don't take anything you've written as being an attack on anyone or
disrespectful. Indeed, it's healthy to have these discussions. Yes, the
developers do get the final say on what goes into core, so you need to
convince them to add or change features, but unlike other screen readers,
even if they say they won't add it, there is still ready access for someone
with the skills to submit the code themselves (often, Mick, Jamie and Reef
might not be against an idea, but not be able to prioritise it high enough
to work on themselves immediately) or create an add-on.

Regards

Quentin.


On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 4:26 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

Here is the discussion I told you about where including a read clipboard
contents command is debated.
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/193
As I said, it was like pulling teeth to get this feature included. I didn't
read the entire discussion and I don't remember if anything was decided at
that time. but again the assertion is made, that is incorrect based on my
years of experience, that when something is copied or pasted to or from the
clipboard, that whether the events occurred or not can't be accurately
determined. I've already addressed this in my previous message. but with
this sort of rigid ideology, is it any wonder that this false assertion
wasn't tested an evaluated and that no effort has been made to add copy and
paste announcements to NVDA? And in complete contradiction to this rigid
ideology, why is there a links list in Browse Mode? Why can this be altered
to move by headings and other structures? No sighted person has a links
list or any other such structure. So not only is this ideology rigid and in
some cases obstructive, it isn't consistently applied.

I am not in any way expressing a lack of appreciation for all of the
excellent work done by NVDA developers and the time and effort it took. but
I am very frustrated when I see a feature that blind people have asked for
for more than five years being shown no interest because ideology dictates
that it shouldn't be considered. Also, if people feel that they should pull
their punches when discussing deficiencies in NVDA because they think that
gratitude should cause them not to discuss them or do so meekly and mildly,
they are not doing anyone any service.

Gene
From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 1:08 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various
modes

This message is rather long but that's because to explain my position takes
time and space. I have gone to the trouble because this has been an issue
of frustration to me for years.

I may be wrong when I thought that the main reason was that the developers
didn't want NvDA to give information sighted users don't have. But the
reason given, as far back as about 2009 was incorrect based on all my years
of experience with JAWS. I didn't use System Access long enough to make
such a statement but I did use it enough to say that I never saw an
inaccurate report in that screen-reader. I tested both screen-readers by
not having anything selected and using the copy and paste commands. In
those tests, neither screen-reader reported any action. the entire premise
given in about 2009 is incorrect. I shall provide a link to the brief
discussion I found. Perhaps I can find more discussion because this is such
a recurring request over the years. As I recall, Window-eyes at least for a
time, did use a key label to indicate copy and paste which would have been
inaccurate if nothing happened. It is the only popular screen-reader in
america that did this. I don't know what Dolphin (spelling) did. but I do
know that in my roughly twelve years of using JAWS, I never once got a false
report and in the times I used System Access, I didn't get a false report
either. I haven't received a false report using the NVDA add on for about
two weeks either and I was alerted that my attempt to copy a file to the
clipboard had failed, which saved me time and trouble.

I don't have to technical knowledge to assess if the developer of the add on
is correct in asserting that errors may occur when using his add on. I can
say with confidence that this feature can be accurate, based on twelve
years' experience with JAWS.

Here is the link to the discussion:
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/75

Aside from my previous objections, note the following quote:
This is an unreasonable expectation that can't, literally can't, be complied
with. When copying text to the clipboard, the speak clipboard feature can
verify that it has been copied. But when copying files or folders, there is
no way to check except to paste them where desired, only to find that
nothing was pasted because nothing was copied or the the wrong files and
folders from a previous copy to the clipboard were pasted in the wrong.
place.

Of course, it is desirable that users become confident and competent
computer users. but many times, I have properly issued the copy command and
I know I issued it correctly. I then tried to paste what I had copied to
find that I had copied nothing. This didn't just happen once or twice but
many times over a period of time when copying text or files and folders.

It is also much more efficient to hear a simple copied or copied to
clipboard when copying text than to have to issue the speak clipboard
contents command, listen for a moment to make sure that the material was
copied, then continue with what I was doing. And in the case of copying
large amounts of material, it isn't read. You are told how many characters
have been copied. Let's say you copy 23,374 characters to the clipboard,
then listen to the announcement of how many characters you copy by issuing
the speak clipboard contents command. You then paste it where you want it.
Then you copy other text to the clipboard, or attempt to. Is it reasonable
that the user should remember the number of characters he copied the last
time so that he can compare that number with the number he heard announced
after copying the new material? ans suppose the number is of similar or
rather similar size. Let's say I copy 23,374 the first time. Let's say that
the second time, I hear 23,265. Is it really reasonable that someone, while
writing something like a research paper, be expected to remember such
numbers whether they are similar or not?
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Quentin Christensen
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 11:44 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various
modes

Thanks Gene,

I hadn't specifically looked into the way other screen readers handled it.
The notes for ClipSpeak say: "In order to prevent announcement in
inappropriate situations, Clipspeak performs checks on the control and the
clipboard in order to make an informed decision as to whether such an
announcement is necessary. Because of this, Clipspeak's announcements may be
inaccurate."


The point is that add-ons like these react to the keystroke, check the
environment and whether the command (copy, paste etc) is theoretically
possible, and then gives the report. It is NOT confirmation that such an
action has taken place, which is why we are reluctant to add it to core. If
we could be sure of that, I'd be all for adding it to core. The argument
about sighted users not having a visual indicator actually isn't 100%
correct. There is nothing on screen to say text was copied or pasted,
however if you have text selected and you cut it, the text disappears
visually. If you paste text, then text suddenly appears in your document
(or wherever).


In the meantime, the clipspeak add-on works for the most part I believe.
Just to be clear, I was never having a go at those who use the add-on, my
suggestion to disable it was simply to take eliminate one possible variable
when investigating the original problem.


Regards


Quentin.


On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 2:27 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

That isn't correct. I wrote about this a year or two ago when the topic
came up for discussion one of the times that it did. I tested JAWS and it
knows when information is copied, as does System Access, which I also
tested. I don't remember if I tested Window-eyes and, clearly, clip speak
does as well. If it didn't, I wouldn't see a no change message when no
change has occurred. Also, it would be a needless duplication of the fake
clipboard announcement add on that has been available for years.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Quentin Christensen
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 11:17 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various
modes

The reason why "cut", "copy", "paste" etc aren't always announced is simply
that just because that is the common use for control+x, control+c and
control+v respectively, we can't always tell whether anything was actually
cut, copied or pasted. To our knowledge, the way other screen readers which
do announce this do it, is the same way that clip speak does - they announce
it in most places because that is what usually happens, but it is possible
there was an error or something else which prevented it, in which case
telling the user text was copied is misleading. There is also the "speak
command keys" either via the keyboard preferences (NVDA+control+k) or
directly with NVDA+4. Note that NVDA does announce when text is copied in
certain situations, particularly when using the review cursor where it was
NVDA itself that copied the text.




On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 2:09 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

I use a very old version most of the time because I like the way review
modes are offered in the interface as opposed to the newer versions. It
isn't an important diffference but since this version, one of the 13
versions, meets my needs and I prefer that part of the interface, I keep
using it.

I don't know what kind of problems you are having specifically and whether I
might have any suggestions.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: nasrin khaksar
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 9:50 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various
modes

hi gene.
i again forgot which version of nvda do you use?
i yesterday tested 2012.2 version of nvda and realized that nvda has
many inconsistency using farsi language and i did not see any of these
problems in flat review.
whats the solution for me?
thanks so much and God bless you!

On 8/17/17, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
I'm not sure why this is, but based on my experience and on a message or
two
from others, at times, Clip Speak causes odd things to happen. It works
well on my machine in general but when I use Freemake video converter,
Clip
Speak doesn't allow me to paste a youtube address into the address field.
I
assume that disabling it would stop the problem but the version of NVDA I
use is too old to have disable available. So I run a version of NVDA
without Clip Speak installed and the problem disappears.

I consider it well worth that slight inconvenience to get real time and
accurate feed back about copying and pasting. Once I was copying a file,
as
I recall, and Clip Speak told me that there had been no change. I don't
recall what I did after that but I got it to copy by fooling around in
some
way. Maybe I just opened and closed My Computer and went back to the
files
list. If I hadn't been using Clip Speak, I would have gone through the
trouble of trying to paste a file that wasn't on the clipboard. I would
have failed and had to do more work. There is simply no way of getting
around it. This feature should be and should have been built into NVDA
from
the outset. Not to do so is to allow ideology about what screen-readers
should and shouldn't do to override practical experience and common sense.
There are rare instances when screen-readers should tell blind users
things
that a sighted person might not be informed of. That is the reason I've
always heard from developers about why the feature isn't in the program,
that Windows doesn't indicate to sighted users when copying and pasting
take
place. Is that true? I was informed many years ago by a sighted user
that
there is some sort of icon, as I recall. Whatever the case, that argument
is, in my strong opinion irrelevant.

A lot of NVDA users will never know about this add on. And if the add on
had been incorporated into program code at the outset, the bugs we are
finding now would either not have existed or would have been worked out
long, long ago.

I'm very pleased that the add on has been developed but I still very
strongly believe that this feature should be and should have been
incorporated into NVDA from the outset.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Quentin Christensen
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 6:57 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various
modes


I wonder if it's that clipspeak program? If you try disabling / quitting
that and then copying text from WordPad does it still paste the embedded
object?


On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 3:48 AM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
<bglists@...> wrote:

Well, I'm just plain awkward, quite obviously. I do not like the wordpad
in 7. Its got ribbons I think and defaults to some strange file type.
However, I find in word that if you paste in browse mode you get an
embedded
object in focus mode it will work but clipspeak when active generates a
word
out of memory error, which is totally spurious as it pastes in any case.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Quentin Christensen"
<quentin@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 1:04 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various
modes




You're using Windows 7, and which version of Office? Are you using
the
standard WordPad that comes with Windows or are you saying you've
copied
the version out of XP?

I just tried it on Windows 10 using the build it WordPad and Office
2016
and everything worked as it should, but looks like that's a completely
different system to yours. I'll try on my WIndows 7 PC in the
morning.

When Word starts, NVDA *should* be in focus mode. If you change to
Browse
mode (NVDA+spacebar) then you shouldn't be able to type as it will be
looking for letters as single letter navigation keys to jump to
elements.
You can paste text in this mode but you really need to go into focus
mode
to manipulate it.

In Word's paste special options, which you can get to with
control+alt+v,
you can paste a "Wordpad document object" (after opening the dialog,
you
need to press up arrow once then enter - at least in Office 2016).
That
is
basically an object box - like a picture or a text box or a chart, in
your
document. Visually it looks like whatever text you copied out of
WordPad,
and when you activate or edit it, a Wordpad window opens with the text
inside.

To edit / activate it, you can double click it with the mouse, There
doesn't seem to be a simple, equivalent keyboard shortcut that I can
find,
but if you open the context menu, you can select "Wordpad document
object",
then edit.



On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 7:31 PM, Brian's Mail list account via
Groups.Io
<
bglists@...> wrote:


OK, we have an rtf document in Wordpad
We have a blank Microsoft word. When Word opens the mode is
apparently
normally in brose, but you can type into the file this way.
However say you grab some text from Wordpad and attempt to paste it
into
word. It does not work as expected, you end up with an embedded
object
in
the file.
However if you switch word to focus mode, you can paste it in as
normal.
Is this expected or a bug?

Note here that since I have clipspeak involved, when I try to paste
in
focus mode I get the out of memory warning which is bogus and can be
ignored due to who knows what.
I'd be particularly interested in people with different versions of
operating systems wordpad and word, as I tend to use the xp wordpad
in
7
and an older style ie normal menus, version of word. Everything else
seems
fine. I just need to remember to switch modes. I'm just wondering
what
the
embedded object pasted actually is?
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.







--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now
available:
http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Ph +61 7 3149 3306
www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess













--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available:
http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/


Ph +61 7 3149 3306
www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess


--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration is:
imam hosein is the beacon of light and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
al-islam.org












--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available:
http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/


Ph +61 7 3149 3306
www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess










--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available:
http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/


Ph +61 7 3149 3306
www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess










--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available:
http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/


Ph +61 7 3149 3306
www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess


Re: 2017.3 RC1

Quentin Christensen
 

Ok looking at mine:

If I set the Synthesizer to Microsoft Speech API Version 5.  In the Voice Settings I can choose:
- Microsoft David Desktop
- Microsoft Hazel Desktop
- Microsoft Zira Desktop

If I set the synthesizer to Windows OneCore Voices, I can go to Voice Settings and choose between:
- Microsoft David
- Microsoft George
- Microsoft Hazel
- Microsoft Susan
- Microsoft Catherine
- Microsoft Zira
- Microsoft Mark
- Microsoft James

The OneCore voices weren't available in 2017.2.  They have been in Next and Master builds for a little while.  I don't think Microsoft have changed the voices available in Windows 10 lately, but I'm running a fast insider build and I have English US, English Australian and possibly English UK languages installed with the appropriate speech packs.

Regards

Quentin.

On Fri, Aug 18, 2017 at 10:22 AM, brian <sackriderbrian45@...> wrote:

    Thats what I did and as I said there is only the one new voice mark.

Brian Sackrider








On 8/17/2017 8:11 PM, Quentin Christensen wrote:
If you are on Windows 10, to get the new OneCore voices, open the synthesizer dialog - NVDA+control+s (or from NVDA's preferences menu) and select "Microsoft OneCore voices" rather than "Microsoft Speech API version 5".


On Fri, Aug 18, 2017 at 10:06 AM, brian <sackriderbrian45@...> wrote:

        I down loaded nvda 2017.3 and I noticed that the only new voice is Mark and when I set my speed to 80 thats the speed that I use it was not as fast as normally is. I did read the what's new and I did not hear really anything very earth shaking to me. So far I have not incounteredany problems.

Brian Sackrider 


On 8/17/2017 10:37 AM, Florian Ionașcu wrote:

Hello, you can download it from here. https://www.nvaccess.org/files/nvda/releases/2017.3rc1/nvda_2017.3rc1.exe

 

Trimis din Mail pentru Windows 10

 

De la: Don H
Trimis: joi, 17 august 2017 16:44
Către: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subiect: [nvda] 2017.3 RC1

 

Where do I go to get NVDA 2017.3 RC1?



 





--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 





--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


Re: 2017.3 RC1

brian <sackriderbrian45@...>
 

    Thats what I did and as I said there is only the one new voice mark.

Brian Sackrider








On 8/17/2017 8:11 PM, Quentin Christensen wrote:
If you are on Windows 10, to get the new OneCore voices, open the synthesizer dialog - NVDA+control+s (or from NVDA's preferences menu) and select "Microsoft OneCore voices" rather than "Microsoft Speech API version 5".


On Fri, Aug 18, 2017 at 10:06 AM, brian <sackriderbrian45@...> wrote:

        I down loaded nvda 2017.3 and I noticed that the only new voice is Mark and when I set my speed to 80 thats the speed that I use it was not as fast as normally is. I did read the what's new and I did not hear really anything very earth shaking to me. So far I have not incounteredany problems.

Brian Sackrider 


On 8/17/2017 10:37 AM, Florian Ionașcu wrote:

Hello, you can download it from here. https://www.nvaccess.org/files/nvda/releases/2017.3rc1/nvda_2017.3rc1.exe

 

Trimis din Mail pentru Windows 10

 

De la: Don H
Trimis: joi, 17 august 2017 16:44
Către: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subiect: [nvda] 2017.3 RC1

 

Where do I go to get NVDA 2017.3 RC1?



 





--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 



Re: Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

Gene
 

If you use the space bar on the WIFI icon, it will very likely work correctly. 
This is more evidence that the number of Windows users who know the system tray commands Is small, I wouldn't be surprised if it is only roughly ten or fifteen percent of users.  I don't expect the NVDA manual to teach Windows but every rule has its exceptions and a discussion of use of the system tray should be in the manual.
 
Gene
----- original Message -----

From: Rui Fontes
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 6:31 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

Hello!

I, with the help of Rui Batista, was the creator of Systray addon.
I now perfectly how to work with the systray using the proper commands, but
due to some problems accessing some items on the systray, like the conexions
icon, wich sometimes open the Network Flyout, I don't know if it is a menu
or a window, but after being open, it is very difficult to interage with the
systray...

Regarding the absence of any information about how to work with the systray
is due to NVDA manual only abord the use of special NVDA commands for a few
specificapps.
Maybe it is time to include some basic tutorials about Windows in general,
File manager, etc...

Rui


-----Mensagem Original-----
De: Gene
Data: 17 de agosto de 2017 13:02
Para: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Assunto: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various
modes


This message is long but those interested in the system tray question may
wish to read it.  Also, commands are given for using the system tray
directly that most NVDA users don't know.

The system tray isn't perfectly accessible directly.  At least that used to
be the case.  I don't know if users would still report problems if surveyed.
I've seen instances where just using the system tray directly doesn't work
properly and using the dialog does.  Until there are no such instances, even
though they are rare, the argument of equal accessibility is not valid.

I don't remember the specific one or two instances I saw quite some time ago
but I did see them.  In addition, rarely, something is such an expected
feature and so completely incorporated into screen-readers in general, that
it amounts to stubborn ideology not to include it.  the system tray dialog
is an example, perhaps almost the only example I know of.  Where I live the
street Goethe is pronounced Go Thee.  This is incorrect according to German
pronunciation and the playwright's name should be pronounced gurta, as an
approximation.  But even radio stations here that are extremely demanding
about proper pronunciation pronounce it Go thee when giving addresses or
discussing the street.  There are just certain times when something is so
entrenched that you just do it.

The system tray dialog wasn't originally adopted by screen-reader developers
as a means of discouraging use of an existing Windows structure.  When first
adopted during Windows 98, the system tray was completely inaccessible.
Microsoft later made it accessible but by that time, the dialog had become
very entrenched and it was continued. If we were starting over and the
system tray was accessible from the outset, a good argument could be made
for direct access and no dialog.  It can't be made now and the dialog should
be a part of NVDA, not an attachment.

Also, using the system tray is not, unless the manual has changed,  properly
documented.  I've looked at this off and on over the years to see if the
manual has changed and it never has.  I haven't checked recently.  Using the
system tray directly is mentioned but the necessary commands are not given
nor is there a special section, linked to as a section, that discusses this.
Since very few blind people will know the necessary commands, a problem is
created for them with no solution given.

Unless the following commands are given, the discussion of using the system
tray in the manual or in any tutorials is almost useless.

Enter is double left click.
Space bar is single left click.
the context menu key is right single click.
You can move through the system tray using single letter navigation or by
left and right arrowing through the items.
Windows key b is the short cut to move to the system tray.
All this is necessary to be explained in a section specifically dedicated to
working directly with the system tray.

Also, there was a problem in Windows 7 which I don't know if it exists in
Windows 8 or 10 but if it does, it also belies the system tray works
perfectly directly argument in those versions of Windows.  It certainly
doesn't work perfectly in this respect in Windows 7.
In Windows 7, when you start a new Windows session and you are arrowing
through the system tray, when you get to the connections are available WIFI
icon, something is opened just by moving to it which shouldn't be opened.  I
don't recall now just what it is but it may be a menu.  As I recall, if you
close the menu, it doesn't open automatically again for the rest of the
Windows session but that is not what I would call a compelling behavior that
encourages blind people to use the system tray directly.

A general standard for when to make and not make changes and provide extra
features is fine and I believe that adding features should be considered
with care.  But no ideological position addresses all situations correctly.

While NVDA generally follows good guidelines in my opinion on such matters,
the rare occasions when it doesn't, may cause unnecessary problems for a lot
of users and present little or no benefits in not adopting something.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Quentin Christensen
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 3:23 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various
modes

Hi Gene,

Thanks for all that info!  I don't have a problem with someone coming out
and saying where NVDA has deficiencies (ideally, do it here where it is
among the community, or by e-mail to us, where those with a direct interest
in NVDA can discuss it civilly, rather than in an external public forum,
preferably).

It's certainly true that when a feature is requested, one of the questions
to be answered is "what information do sighted users receive visually?"
Whatever the answer is, doesn't necessarily mean the feature is not
worthwhile or warranted.  I would argue that, where possible and efficient,
it's preferable to perform the same tasks as sighted users, or using
standard keystrokes rather than reinventing the wheel.  A good example is
accessing the system tray.  Some other screen readers have a command to
present the contents of the system tray in a new window, NVDA does not.  The
reason we don't, is that the contents of the system tray are already
perfectly accessible with the WINDOWS+B command.  The advantage of a
dedicated window is that you guarantee you have all the icons there, where
depending on your setup, using WINDOWS+B you may need to move to the
"overflow" area, or else know how to set the option to always show all
icons.

There was a question in that issue thread you posted, about well, why does
NVDA have an elements list dialog?  That's a good example where yes you
could get around a web page with tab and / or the arrow keys, but it
wouldn't be efficient, and it would make accessing the web very burdensome.
In addition, sighted users can jump directly to parts of the page using the
mouse - either by clicking on a form field such as an edit box, or by
scrolling the page down in which case their eyes instantly jump to prominent
features such as headings.  Back to the system tray, the sighted user will
likely use the mouse rather than WINOWS+B, but the result is the same and
for similar effort - the focus moves to the system tray, where they can left
or right click (enter or applications key) on an icon to access its
features.

Back to the specific question in this thread, which is announcing when text
has been copied, cut or pasted.  The last conversation I had on the issue
was, as I said before, that the way I believed tools such as clipspeak do
it, was not truly by knowing that something has been copied, but by
evaluating where the focus was, and what was selected as to whether
something was likely to have been copied.  That may in virtually all
situations, and if so, there may be a question of "is that good enough"?

If you believe things have progressed or you can bring a new argument in
favour, I'd encourage you to create a new GitHub issue.

Personally, I think since NVDA has the ability to read the clipboard
contents, then announcing when things are copied or pasted is a natural
enough progression, as long as it can be done accurately and without undue
overhead.

I don't take anything you've written as being an attack on anyone or
disrespectful.  Indeed, it's healthy to have these discussions.  Yes, the
developers do get the final say on what goes into core, so you need to
convince them to add or change features, but unlike other screen readers,
even if they say they won't add it, there is still ready access for someone
with the skills to submit the code themselves (often, Mick, Jamie and Reef
might not be against an idea, but not be able to prioritise it high enough
to work on themselves immediately) or create an add-on.

Regards

Quentin.


On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 4:26 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

Here is the discussion I told you about where including a read clipboard
contents command is debated.
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/193
As I said, it was like pulling teeth to get this feature included.  I didn't
read the entire discussion and I don't remember if anything was decided at
that time.  but again the assertion is made, that is incorrect based on my
years of experience, that when something is copied or pasted to or from the
clipboard, that whether the events occurred or not can't be accurately
determined.  I've already addressed this in my previous message.  but with
this sort of rigid ideology, is it any wonder that this false assertion
wasn't tested an evaluated and that no effort has been made to add copy and
paste announcements to NVDA?  And in complete contradiction to this rigid
ideology, why is there a links list in Browse Mode?  Why can this be altered
to move by headings and other structures?  No sighted person has a links
list or any other such structure.  So not only is this ideology rigid and in
some cases obstructive, it isn't consistently applied.

I am not in any way expressing a lack of appreciation for all of the
excellent work done by NVDA developers and the time and effort it took.  but
I am very frustrated when I see a feature that blind people have asked for
for more than five years being shown no interest because ideology dictates
that it shouldn't be considered.  Also, if people feel that they should pull
their punches when discussing deficiencies in NVDA because they think that
gratitude should cause them not to discuss them or do so meekly and mildly,
they are not doing anyone any service.

Gene
From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 1:08 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various
modes

This message is rather long but that's because to explain my position takes
time and space.  I have gone to the trouble because this has been an issue
of frustration to me for years.

I may be wrong when I thought that the main reason was that the developers
didn't want NvDA to give information sighted users don't have.  But the
reason given, as far back as about 2009 was incorrect based on all my years
of experience with JAWS.  I didn't use System Access long enough to make
such a statement but I did use it enough to say that I never saw an
inaccurate report in that screen-reader.  I tested both screen-readers by
not having anything selected and using the copy and paste commands.  In
those tests, neither screen-reader reported any action.  the entire premise
given in about 2009 is incorrect.  I shall provide a link to the brief
discussion I found.  Perhaps I can find more discussion because this is such
a recurring request over the years.  As I recall, Window-eyes at least for a
time, did use a key label to indicate copy and paste which would have been
inaccurate if nothing happened.  It is the only popular screen-reader in
america that did this.  I don't know what Dolphin (spelling) did.  but I do
know that in my roughly twelve years of using JAWS, I never once got a false
report and in the times I used System Access, I didn't get a false report
either.  I haven't received a false report using the NVDA add on for about
two weeks either and I was alerted that my attempt to copy a file to the
clipboard had failed, which saved me time and trouble.

I don't have to technical knowledge to assess if the developer of the add on
is correct in asserting that errors may occur when using his add on.  I can
say with confidence that this feature can be accurate, based on twelve
years' experience with JAWS.

Here is the link to the discussion:
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/75

Aside from my previous objections, note the following quote:
This is an unreasonable expectation that can't, literally can't, be complied
with.  When copying text to the clipboard, the speak clipboard feature can
verify that it has been copied.  But when copying files or folders, there is
no way to check except to paste them where desired, only to find that
nothing was pasted because nothing was copied or the the wrong files and
folders from a previous copy to the clipboard were pasted in the wrong.
place.

Of course, it is desirable that users become confident and competent
computer users.  but many times, I have properly issued the copy command and
I know I issued it correctly.  I then tried to paste what I had copied to
find that I had copied nothing.  This didn't just happen once or twice but
many times over a period of time when copying text or files and folders.

It is also much more efficient to hear a simple copied or copied to
clipboard when copying text than to have to issue the speak clipboard
contents command, listen for a moment to make sure that the material was
copied, then continue with what I was doing.  And in the case of copying
large amounts of material, it isn't read.  You are told how many characters
have been copied.  Let's say you copy 23,374 characters to the clipboard,
then listen to the announcement of how many characters you copy by issuing
the speak clipboard contents command.  You then paste it where you want it.
Then you copy other text to the clipboard, or attempt to.  Is it reasonable
that the user should remember the number of characters he copied the last
time so that he can compare that number with the number he heard announced
after copying the new material?  ans suppose the number is of similar or
rather similar size. Let's say I copy 23,374 the first time.  Let's say that
the second time, I hear 23,265.  Is it really reasonable that someone, while
writing something like a research paper, be expected to remember such
numbers whether they are similar or not?
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Quentin Christensen
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 11:44 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various
modes

Thanks Gene,

I hadn't specifically looked into the way other screen readers handled it.
The notes for ClipSpeak say: "In order to prevent announcement in
inappropriate situations, Clipspeak performs checks on the control and the
clipboard in order to make an informed decision as to whether such an
announcement is necessary. Because of this, Clipspeak's announcements may be
inaccurate."


The point is that add-ons like these react to the keystroke, check the
environment and whether the command (copy, paste etc) is theoretically
possible, and then gives the report.  It is NOT confirmation that such an
action has taken place, which is why we are reluctant to add it to core.  If
we could be sure of that, I'd be all for adding it to core.  The argument
about sighted users not having a visual indicator actually isn't 100%
correct.  There is nothing on screen to say text was copied or pasted,
however if you have text selected and you cut it, the text disappears
visually.  If you paste text, then text suddenly appears in your document
(or wherever).


In the meantime, the clipspeak add-on works for the most part I believe.
Just to be clear, I was never having a go at those who use the add-on, my
suggestion to disable it was simply to take eliminate one possible variable
when investigating the original problem.


Regards


Quentin.


On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 2:27 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

That isn't correct.  I wrote about this a year or two ago when the topic
came up for discussion one of the times that it did.  I tested JAWS and it
knows when information is copied, as does System Access, which I also
tested.  I don't remember if I tested Window-eyes and, clearly, clip speak
does as well.  If it didn't, I wouldn't see a no change message when no
change has occurred.  Also, it would be a needless duplication of the fake
clipboard announcement add on that has been available for years.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Quentin Christensen
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 11:17 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various
modes

The reason why "cut", "copy", "paste" etc aren't always announced is simply
that just because that is the common use for control+x, control+c and
control+v respectively, we can't always tell whether anything was actually
cut, copied or pasted.  To our knowledge, the way other screen readers which
do announce this do it, is the same way that clip speak does - they announce
it in most places because that is what usually happens, but it is possible
there was an error or something else which prevented it, in which case
telling the user text was copied is misleading.  There is also the "speak
command keys" either via the keyboard preferences (NVDA+control+k) or
directly with NVDA+4.  Note that NVDA does announce when text is copied in
certain situations, particularly when using the review cursor where it was
NVDA itself that copied the text.




On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 2:09 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

I use a very old version most of the time because I like the way review
modes are offered in the interface as opposed to the newer versions.  It
isn't an important diffference but since this version, one of the 13
versions, meets my needs and I prefer that part of the interface, I keep
using it.

I don't know what kind of problems you are having specifically and whether I
might have any suggestions.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: nasrin khaksar
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 9:50 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various
modes

hi gene.
i again forgot which version of nvda do you use?
i yesterday tested 2012.2 version of nvda and realized that nvda has
many inconsistency using farsi language and i did not see any of these
problems in flat review.
whats the solution for me?
thanks so much and God bless you!

On 8/17/17, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
> I'm not sure why this is, but based on my experience and on a message or
> two
> from others, at times, Clip Speak causes odd things to happen.  It works
> well on my machine in general but when I use Freemake video converter,
> Clip
> Speak doesn't allow me to paste a youtube address into the address field.
> I
> assume that disabling it would stop the problem but the version of NVDA I
> use is too old to have disable available.  So I run a version of NVDA
> without Clip Speak installed and the problem disappears.
>
> I consider it well worth that slight inconvenience to get real time and
> accurate feed back about copying and pasting.  Once I was copying a file,
> as
> I recall, and Clip Speak told me that there had been no change.  I don't
> recall what I did after that but I got it to copy by fooling around in
> some
> way.  Maybe I just opened and closed My Computer and went back to the
> files
> list.  If I hadn't been using Clip Speak, I would have gone through the
> trouble of trying to paste a file that wasn't on the clipboard.  I would
> have failed and had to do more work.  There is simply no way of getting
> around it.  This feature should be and should have been built into NVDA
> from
> the outset.  Not to do so is to allow ideology about what screen-readers
> should and shouldn't do to override practical experience and common sense.
> There are rare instances when screen-readers should tell blind users
> things
> that a sighted person might not be informed of.  That is the reason I've
> always heard from developers about why the feature isn't in the program,
> that Windows doesn't indicate to sighted users when copying and pasting
> take
> place.  Is that true?  I was informed many years ago by a sighted user
> that
> there is some sort of icon, as I recall.  Whatever the case, that argument
> is, in my strong opinion irrelevant.
>
> A lot of NVDA users will never know about this add on.  And if the add on
> had been incorporated into program code at the outset, the bugs we are
> finding now would either not have existed or would have been worked out
> long, long ago.
>
> I'm very pleased that the add on has been developed but I still very
> strongly believe that this feature should be and should have been
> incorporated into NVDA from the outset.
>
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Quentin Christensen
> Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 6:57 PM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various
> modes
>
>
> I wonder if it's that clipspeak program?  If you try disabling / quitting
> that and then copying text from WordPad does it still paste the embedded
> object?
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 3:48 AM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
> <bglists@...> wrote:
>
>   Well, I'm just plain awkward, quite obviously. I do not like the wordpad
> in 7. Its got ribbons I think and defaults to some strange file type.
> However, I find in word that if you paste in browse mode you get an
> embedded
> object in focus mode it will work but clipspeak when active generates a
> word
> out of memory error, which is totally spurious as it pastes in any case.
>   Brian
>
>   bglists@...
>   Sent via blueyonder.
>   Please address personal email to:-
>   briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
>   in the display name field.
>   ----- Original Message ----- From: "Quentin Christensen"
> <quentin@...>
>   To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>   Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 1:04 PM
>   Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various
> modes
>
>
>
>
>     You're using Windows 7, and which version of Office?  Are you using
> the
>     standard WordPad that comes with Windows or are you saying you've
> copied
>     the version out of XP?
>
>     I just tried it on Windows 10 using the build it WordPad and Office
> 2016
>     and everything worked as it should, but looks like that's a completely
>     different system to yours.  I'll try on my WIndows 7 PC in the
> morning.
>
>     When Word starts, NVDA *should* be in focus mode.  If you change to
> Browse
>     mode (NVDA+spacebar) then you shouldn't be able to type as it will be
>     looking for letters as single letter navigation keys to jump to
> elements.
>     You can paste text in this mode but you really need to go into focus
> mode
>     to manipulate it.
>
>     In Word's paste special options, which you can get to with
> control+alt+v,
>     you can paste a "Wordpad document object" (after opening the dialog,
> you
>     need to press up arrow once then enter - at least in Office 2016).
> That
> is
>     basically an object box - like a picture or a text box or a chart, in
> your
>     document.  Visually it looks like whatever text you copied out of
> WordPad,
>     and when you activate or edit it, a Wordpad window opens with the text
>     inside.
>
>     To edit / activate it, you can double click it with the mouse,  There
>     doesn't seem to be a simple, equivalent keyboard shortcut that I can
> find,
>     but if you open the context menu, you can select "Wordpad document
> object",
>     then edit.
>
>
>
>     On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 7:31 PM, Brian's Mail list account via
> Groups.Io
> <
>     bglists@...> wrote:
>
>
>       OK, we have an rtf document in Wordpad
>       We have a blank Microsoft word. When Word opens the mode is
> apparently
>       normally in brose, but you can type into the file this way.
>       However say you grab some text from Wordpad and attempt to paste it
> into
>       word. It does not work as expected, you end up with an embedded
> object
> in
>       the file.
>       However if you switch word to focus mode, you can paste it in as
> normal.
>       Is this expected or a bug?
>
>       Note here that  since I have clipspeak involved, when I try to paste
> in
>       focus mode I get the out of memory warning which is bogus and can be
>       ignored due to who knows what.
>       I'd be particularly interested in people with different versions of
>       operating systems wordpad and word, as I tend to use the xp wordpad
> in
> 7
>       and an older style ie normal menus, version of word. Everything else
> seems
>       fine. I just need to remember to switch modes. I'm just wondering
> what
> the
>       embedded object pasted actually is?
>       Brian
>
>       bglists@...
>       Sent via blueyonder.
>       Please address personal email to:-
>       briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
>       in the display name field.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>     --
>     Quentin Christensen
>     Training and Support Manager
>
>     Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now
> available:
>     http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
>
>     Ph +61 7 3149 3306
>     www.nvaccess.org
>     Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
>     Twitter: @NVAccess
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Quentin Christensen
> Training and Support Manager
>
>
> Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available:
> http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
>
>
> Ph +61 7 3149 3306
> www.nvaccess.org
> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
> Twitter: @NVAccess
>
>


--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration is:
imam hosein is the beacon of light and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
al-islam.org












--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available:
http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/


Ph +61 7 3149 3306
www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess










--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available:
http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/


Ph +61 7 3149 3306
www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess










--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available:
http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/


Ph +61 7 3149 3306
www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess
 




Re: Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

Gene
 

The developers are telling people to use the system tray directly because, for ideological reasons, the developers won't put the system tray dialog in NVDA.  They are telling new users who may not even know that add ons of any kind exist yet, much less that there is a system tray dialog add on, to use the system tray directly, and, because the commands needed to work with the system tray are Windows commands, they don't provide information on how to use them.  the developers can't have it both ways.  Either put the dialog in NVDA so people can use what they already know or leave it out and provide instruction on how to use the system tray directly, which they are, in effect, forcing people to do. 
 
The decision not to discuss how to use the system tray directly in the manual creates a catch 22.  Most blind computer users, even experienced and knowledgeable ones, don't know these commands.
Yet the developers tell them to use the system tray directly and don't explain how.
 
You have demonstrated better than any argument I could make the necessity for having these commands presented in the manual.  Even as knowledgeable and experienced a Windows user as you are doesn't know them all.
 
And the space bar as left click in the syste tray is evidently not discussed in the basic training tutorial or not correctly. 
 
I have proof from my own experience that space is left click and enter is double click.  My WIFI icon only responds properly to the space bar.  .
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 6:13 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

Hi Gene,

Just on your point about the system tray commands needing to be taught, I agree that people should know them, however exactly where to cover them is the issue.  They are not NVDA commands, therefore are not suitable to be put in the NVDA User Guide.  They do get a mention in the Basic Training for NVDA module since that does walk the user through learning how to use the computer as a whole with NVDA.

Are you sure there is a difference between pressing spacebar and pressing ENTER on an icon?  I have never noticed one?  A mouse user would normally single click on an icon to activate it.  I don't recall any instance where you need to double click on a system tray icon.  It's mostly the desktop icons you need to double click to activate.




On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 10:02 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
This message is long but those interested in the system tray question may wish to read it.  Also, commands are given for using the system tray directly that most NVDA users don't know. 
 
The system tray isn't perfectly accessible directly.  At least that used to be the case.  I don't know if users would still report problems if surveyed.  I've seen instances where just using the system tray directly doesn't work properly and using the dialog does.  Until there are no such instances, even though they are rare, the argument of equal accessibility is not valid. 
 
I don't remember the specific one or two instances I saw quite some time ago but I did see them.  In addition, rarely, something is such an expected feature and so completely incorporated into screen-readers in general, that it amounts to stubborn ideology not to include it.  the system tray dialog is an example, perhaps almost the only example I know of.  Where I live the street Goethe is pronounced Go Thee.  This is incorrect according to German pronunciation and the playwright's name should be pronounced gurta, as an approximation.  But even radio stations here that are extremely demanding about proper pronunciation pronounce it Go thee when giving addresses or discussing the street.  There are just certain times when something is so entrenched that you just do it. 
 
The system tray dialog wasn't originally adopted by screen-reader developers as a means of discouraging use of an existing Windows structure.  When first adopted during Windows 98, the system tray was completely inaccessible.  Microsoft later made it accessible but by that time, the dialog had become very entrenched and it was continued. If we were starting over and the system tray was accessible from the outset, a good argument could be made for direct access and no dialog.  It can't be made now and the dialog should be a part of NVDA, not an attachment. 
 
Also, using the system tray is not, unless the manual has changed,  properly documented.  I've looked at this off and on over the years to see if the manual has changed and it never has.  I haven't checked recently.  Using the system tray directly is mentioned but the necessary commands are not given nor is there a special section, linked to as a section, that discusses this.  Since very few blind people will know the necessary commands, a problem is created for them with no solution given.
 
Unless the following commands are given, the discussion of using the system tray in the manual or in any tutorials is almost useless.
 
Enter is double left click.
Space bar is single left click.
the context menu key is right single click.
You can move through the system tray using single letter navigation or by left and right arrowing through the items. 
Windows key b is the short cut to move to the system tray. 
All this is necessary to be explained in a section specifically dedicated to working directly with the system tray.
 
Also, there was a problem in Windows 7 which I don't know if it exists in Windows 8 or 10 but if it does, it also belies the system tray works perfectly directly argument in those versions of Windows.  It certainly doesn't work perfectly in this respect in Windows 7.
In Windows 7, when you start a new Windows session and you are arrowing through the system tray, when you get to the connections are available WIFI icon, something is opened just by moving to it which shouldn't be opened.  I don't recall now just what it is but it may be a menu.  As I recall, if you close the menu, it doesn't open automatically again for the rest of the Windows session but that is not what I would call a compelling behavior that encourages blind people to use the system tray directly.
 
A general standard for when to make and not make changes and provide extra features is fine and I believe that adding features should be considered with care.  But no ideological position addresses all situations correctly.
 
While NVDA generally follows good guidelines in my opinion on such matters, the rare occasions when it doesn't, may cause unnecessary problems for a lot of users and present little or no benefits in not adopting something.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 3:23 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

Hi Gene,

Thanks for all that info!  I don't have a problem with someone coming out and saying where NVDA has deficiencies (ideally, do it here where it is among the community, or by e-mail to us, where those with a direct interest in NVDA can discuss it civilly, rather than in an external public forum, preferably).

It's certainly true that when a feature is requested, one of the questions to be answered is "what information do sighted users receive visually?"  Whatever the answer is, doesn't necessarily mean the feature is not worthwhile or warranted.  I would argue that, where possible and efficient, it's preferable to perform the same tasks as sighted users, or using standard keystrokes rather than reinventing the wheel.  A good example is accessing the system tray.  Some other screen readers have a command to present the contents of the system tray in a new window, NVDA does not.  The reason we don't, is that the contents of the system tray are already perfectly accessible with the WINDOWS+B command.  The advantage of a dedicated window is that you guarantee you have all the icons there, where depending on your setup, using WINDOWS+B you may need to move to the "overflow" area, or else know how to set the option to always show all icons.

There was a question in that issue thread you posted, about well, why does NVDA have an elements list dialog?  That's a good example where yes you could get around a web page with tab and / or the arrow keys, but it wouldn't be efficient, and it would make accessing the web very burdensome.  In addition, sighted users can jump directly to parts of the page using the mouse - either by clicking on a form field such as an edit box, or by scrolling the page down in which case their eyes instantly jump to prominent features such as headings.  Back to the system tray, the sighted user will likely use the mouse rather than WINOWS+B, but the result is the same and for similar effort - the focus moves to the system tray, where they can left or right click (enter or applications key) on an icon to access its features.

Back to the specific question in this thread, which is announcing when text has been copied, cut or pasted.  The last conversation I had on the issue was, as I said before, that the way I believed tools such as clipspeak do it, was not truly by knowing that something has been copied, but by evaluating where the focus was, and what was selected as to whether something was likely to have been copied.  That may in virtually all situations, and if so, there may be a question of "is that good enough"?

If you believe things have progressed or you can bring a new argument in favour, I'd encourage you to create a new GitHub issue.

Personally, I think since NVDA has the ability to read the clipboard contents, then announcing when things are copied or pasted is a natural enough progression, as long as it can be done accurately and without undue overhead.

I don't take anything you've written as being an attack on anyone or disrespectful.  Indeed, it's healthy to have these discussions.  Yes, the developers do get the final say on what goes into core, so you need to convince them to add or change features, but unlike other screen readers, even if they say they won't add it, there is still ready access for someone with the skills to submit the code themselves (often, Mick, Jamie and Reef might not be against an idea, but not be able to prioritise it high enough to work on themselves immediately) or create an add-on.

Regards

Quentin.

On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 4:26 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
Here is the discussion I told you about where including a read clipboard contents command is debated. 
As I said, it was like pulling teeth to get this feature included.  I didn't read the entire discussion and I don't remember if anything was decided at that time.  but again the assertion is made, that is incorrect based on my years of experience, that when something is copied or pasted to or from the clipboard, that whether the events occurred or not can't be accurately determined.  I've already addressed this in my previous message.  but with this sort of rigid ideology, is it any wonder that this false assertion wasn't tested an evaluated and that no effort has been made to add copy and paste announcements to NVDA?  And in complete contradiction to this rigid ideology, why is there a links list in Browse Mode?  Why can this be altered to move by headings and other structures?  No sighted person has a links list or any other such structure.  So not only is this ideology rigid and in some cases obstructive, it isn't consistently applied. 
 
I am not in any way expressing a lack of appreciation for all of the excellent work done by NVDA developers and the time and effort it took.  but I am very frustrated when I see a feature that blind people have asked for for more than five years being shown no interest because ideology dictates that it shouldn't be considered.  Also, if people feel that they should pull their punches when discussing deficiencies in NVDA because they think that gratitude should cause them not to discuss them or do so meekly and mildly, they are not doing anyone any service. 
 
Gene
From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 1:08 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

This message is rather long but that's because to explain my position takes time and space.  I have gone to the trouble because this has been an issue of frustration to me for years. 
 
I may be wrong when I thought that the main reason was that the developers didn't want NvDA to give information sighted users don't have.  But the reason given, as far back as about 2009 was incorrect based on all my years of experience with JAWS.  I didn't use System Access long enough to make such a statement but I did use it enough to say that I never saw an inaccurate report in that screen-reader.  I tested both screen-readers by not having anything selected and using the copy and paste commands.  In those tests, neither screen-reader reported any action.  the entire premise given in about 2009 is incorrect.  I shall provide a link to the brief discussion I found.  Perhaps I can find more discussion because this is such a recurring request over the years.  As I recall, Window-eyes at least for a time, did use a key label to indicate copy and paste which would have been inaccurate if nothing happened.  It is the only popular screen-reader in america that did this.  I don't know what Dolphin (spelling) did.  but I do know that in my roughly twelve years of using JAWS, I never once got a false report and in the times I used System Access, I didn't get a false report either.  I haven't received a false report using the NVDA add on for about two weeks either and I was alerted that my attempt to copy a file to the clipboard had failed, which saved me time and trouble. 
 
I don't have to technical knowledge to assess if the developer of the add on is correct in asserting that errors may occur when using his add on.  I can say with confidence that this feature can be accurate, based on twelve years' experience with JAWS. 
 
Here is the link to the discussion:
 
Aside from my previous objections, note the following quote:
This is an unreasonable expectation that can't, literally can't, be complied with.  When copying text to the clipboard, the speak clipboard feature can verify that it has been copied.  But when copying files or folders, there is no way to check except to paste them where desired, only to find that nothing was pasted because nothing was copied or the the wrong files and folders from a previous copy to the clipboard were pasted in the wrong. place. 
 
Of course, it is desirable that users become confident and competent computer users.  but many times, I have properly issued the copy command and I know I issued it correctly.  I then tried to paste what I had copied to find that I had copied nothing.  This didn't just happen once or twice but many times over a period of time when copying text or files and folders.
 
It is also much more efficient to hear a simple copied or copied to clipboard when copying text than to have to issue the speak clipboard contents command, listen for a moment to make sure that the material was copied, then continue with what I was doing.  And in the case of copying large amounts of material, it isn't read.  You are told how many characters have been copied.  Let's say you copy 23,374 characters to the clipboard, then listen to the announcement of how many characters you copy by issuing the speak clipboard contents command.  You then paste it where you want it.  Then you copy other text to the clipboard, or attempt to.  Is it reasonable that the user should remember the number of characters he copied the last time so that he can compare that number with the number he heard announced after copying the new material?  ans suppose the number is of similar or rather similar size. Let's say I copy 23,374 the first time.  Let's say that the second time, I hear 23,265.  Is it really reasonable that someone, while writing something like a research paper, be expected to remember such numbers whether they are similar or not?   
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 11:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

Thanks Gene,

I hadn't specifically looked into the way other screen readers handled it.  The notes for ClipSpeak say: "In order to prevent announcement in inappropriate situations, Clipspeak performs checks on the control and the clipboard in order to make an informed decision as to whether such an announcement is necessary. Because of this, Clipspeak's announcements may be inaccurate."

The point is that add-ons like these react to the keystroke, check the environment and whether the command (copy, paste etc) is theoretically possible, and then gives the report.  It is NOT confirmation that such an action has taken place, which is why we are reluctant to add it to core.  If we could be sure of that, I'd be all for adding it to core.  The argument about sighted users not having a visual indicator actually isn't 100% correct.  There is nothing on screen to say text was copied or pasted, however if you have text selected and you cut it, the text disappears visually.  If you paste text, then text suddenly appears in your document (or wherever).

In the meantime, the clipspeak add-on works for the most part I believe.  Just to be clear, I was never having a go at those who use the add-on, my suggestion to disable it was simply to take eliminate one possible variable when investigating the original problem.

Regards

Quentin.

On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 2:27 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
That isn't correct.  I wrote about this a year or two ago when the topic came up for discussion one of the times that it did.  I tested JAWS and it knows when information is copied, as does System Access, which I also tested.  I don't remember if I tested Window-eyes and, clearly, clip speak does as well.  If it didn't, I wouldn't see a no change message when no change has occurred.  Also, it would be a needless duplication of the fake clipboard announcement add on that has been available for years. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 11:17 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

The reason why "cut", "copy", "paste" etc aren't always announced is simply that just because that is the common use for control+x, control+c and control+v respectively, we can't always tell whether anything was actually cut, copied or pasted.  To our knowledge, the way other screen readers which do announce this do it, is the same way that clip speak does - they announce it in most places because that is what usually happens, but it is possible there was an error or something else which prevented it, in which case telling the user text was copied is misleading.  There is also the "speak command keys" either via the keyboard preferences (NVDA+control+k) or directly with NVDA+4.  Note that NVDA does announce when text is copied in certain situations, particularly when using the review cursor where it was NVDA itself that copied the text.



On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 2:09 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
I use a very old version most of the time because I like the way review modes are offered in the interface as opposed to the newer versions.  It isn't an important diffference but since this version, one of the 13 versions, meets my needs and I prefer that part of the interface, I keep using it. 
 
I don't know what kind of problems you are having specifically and whether I might have any suggestions.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 9:50 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

hi gene.
i again forgot which version of nvda do you use?
i yesterday tested 2012.2 version of nvda and realized that nvda has
many inconsistency using farsi language and i did not see any of these
problems in flat review.
whats the solution for me?
thanks so much and God bless you!

On 8/17/17, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
> I'm not sure why this is, but based on my experience and on a message or two
> from others, at times, Clip Speak causes odd things to happen.  It works
> well on my machine in general but when I use Freemake video converter, Clip
> Speak doesn't allow me to paste a youtube address into the address field.  I
> assume that disabling it would stop the problem but the version of NVDA I
> use is too old to have disable available.  So I run a version of NVDA
> without Clip Speak installed and the problem disappears.
>
> I consider it well worth that slight inconvenience to get real time and
> accurate feed back about copying and pasting.  Once I was copying a file, as
> I recall, and Clip Speak told me that there had been no change.  I don't
> recall what I did after that but I got it to copy by fooling around in some
> way.  Maybe I just opened and closed My Computer and went back to the files
> list.  If I hadn't been using Clip Speak, I would have gone through the
> trouble of trying to paste a file that wasn't on the clipboard.  I would
> have failed and had to do more work.  There is simply no way of getting
> around it.  This feature should be and should have been built into NVDA from
> the outset.  Not to do so is to allow ideology about what screen-readers
> should and shouldn't do to override practical experience and common sense.
> There are rare instances when screen-readers should tell blind users things
> that a sighted person might not be informed of.  That is the reason I've
> always heard from developers about why the feature isn't in the program,
> that Windows doesn't indicate to sighted users when copying and pasting take
> place.  Is that true?  I was informed many years ago by a sighted user that
> there is some sort of icon, as I recall.  Whatever the case, that argument
> is, in my strong opinion irrelevant.
>
> A lot of NVDA users will never know about this add on.  And if the add on
> had been incorporated into program code at the outset, the bugs we are
> finding now would either not have existed or would have been worked out
> long, long ago.
>
> I'm very pleased that the add on has been developed but I still very
> strongly believe that this feature should be and should have been
> incorporated into NVDA from the outset.
>
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Quentin Christensen
> Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 6:57 PM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various
> modes
>
>
> I wonder if it's that clipspeak program?  If you try disabling / quitting
> that and then copying text from WordPad does it still paste the embedded
> object?
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 3:48 AM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
> <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:
>
>   Well, I'm just plain awkward, quite obviously. I do not like the wordpad
> in 7. Its got ribbons I think and defaults to some strange file type.
> However, I find in word that if you paste in browse mode you get an embedded
> object in focus mode it will work but clipspeak when active generates a word
> out of memory error, which is totally spurious as it pastes in any case.
>   Brian
>
>   bglists@...
>   Sent via blueyonder.
>   Please address personal email to:-
>   briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
>   in the display name field.
>   ----- Original Message ----- From: "Quentin Christensen"
> <quentin@...>
>   To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>   Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 1:04 PM
>   Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various
> modes
>
>
>
>
>     You're using Windows 7, and which version of Office?  Are you using the
>     standard WordPad that comes with Windows or are you saying you've
> copied
>     the version out of XP?
>
>     I just tried it on Windows 10 using the build it WordPad and Office
> 2016
>     and everything worked as it should, but looks like that's a completely
>     different system to yours.  I'll try on my WIndows 7 PC in the morning.
>
>     When Word starts, NVDA *should* be in focus mode.  If you change to
> Browse
>     mode (NVDA+spacebar) then you shouldn't be able to type as it will be
>     looking for letters as single letter navigation keys to jump to
> elements.
>     You can paste text in this mode but you really need to go into focus
> mode
>     to manipulate it.
>
>     In Word's paste special options, which you can get to with
> control+alt+v,
>     you can paste a "Wordpad document object" (after opening the dialog,
> you
>     need to press up arrow once then enter - at least in Office 2016).  That
> is
>     basically an object box - like a picture or a text box or a chart, in
> your
>     document.  Visually it looks like whatever text you copied out of
> WordPad,
>     and when you activate or edit it, a Wordpad window opens with the text
>     inside.
>
>     To edit / activate it, you can double click it with the mouse,  There
>     doesn't seem to be a simple, equivalent keyboard shortcut that I can
> find,
>     but if you open the context menu, you can select "Wordpad document
> object",
>     then edit.
>
>
>
>     On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 7:31 PM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
> <
>     bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:
>
>
>       OK, we have an rtf document in Wordpad
>       We have a blank Microsoft word. When Word opens the mode is
> apparently
>       normally in brose, but you can type into the file this way.
>       However say you grab some text from Wordpad and attempt to paste it
> into
>       word. It does not work as expected, you end up with an embedded object
> in
>       the file.
>       However if you switch word to focus mode, you can paste it in as
> normal.
>       Is this expected or a bug?
>
>       Note here that  since I have clipspeak involved, when I try to paste
> in
>       focus mode I get the out of memory warning which is bogus and can be
>       ignored due to who knows what.
>       I'd be particularly interested in people with different versions of
>       operating systems wordpad and word, as I tend to use the xp wordpad in
> 7
>       and an older style ie normal menus, version of word. Everything else
> seems
>       fine. I just need to remember to switch modes. I'm just wondering what
> the
>       embedded object pasted actually is?
>       Brian
>
>       bglists@...
>       Sent via blueyonder.
>       Please address personal email to:-
>       briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
>       in the display name field.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>     --
>     Quentin Christensen
>     Training and Support Manager
>
>     Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now
> available:
>     http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
>
>     Ph +61 7 3149 3306
>     www.nvaccess.org
>     Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
>     Twitter: @NVAccess
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Quentin Christensen
> Training and Support Manager
>
>
> Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available:
> http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
>
>
> Ph +61 7 3149 3306
> www.nvaccess.org
> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
> Twitter: @NVAccess
>
>


--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration is:
imam hosein is the beacon of light and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
al-islam.org





--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 




--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 




--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 




--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


Re: 2017.3 RC1

Quentin Christensen
 

If you are on Windows 10, to get the new OneCore voices, open the synthesizer dialog - NVDA+control+s (or from NVDA's preferences menu) and select "Microsoft OneCore voices" rather than "Microsoft Speech API version 5".


On Fri, Aug 18, 2017 at 10:06 AM, brian <sackriderbrian45@...> wrote:

        I down loaded nvda 2017.3 and I noticed that the only new voice is Mark and when I set my speed to 80 thats the speed that I use it was not as fast as normally is. I did read the what's new and I did not hear really anything very earth shaking to me. So far I have not incounteredany problems.

Brian Sackrider 


On 8/17/2017 10:37 AM, Florian Ionașcu wrote:

Hello, you can download it from here. https://www.nvaccess.org/files/nvda/releases/2017.3rc1/nvda_2017.3rc1.exe

 

Trimis din Mail pentru Windows 10

 

De la: Don H
Trimis: joi, 17 august 2017 16:44
Către: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subiect: [nvda] 2017.3 RC1

 

Where do I go to get NVDA 2017.3 RC1?



 





--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


Re: 2017.3 RC1

brian <sackriderbrian45@...>
 

        I down loaded nvda 2017.3 and I noticed that the only new voice is Mark and when I set my speed to 80 thats the speed that I use it was not as fast as normally is. I did read the what's new and I did not hear really anything very earth shaking to me. So far I have not incounteredany problems.

Brian Sackrider 


On 8/17/2017 10:37 AM, Florian Ionașcu wrote:

Hello, you can download it from here. https://www.nvaccess.org/files/nvda/releases/2017.3rc1/nvda_2017.3rc1.exe

 

Trimis din Mail pentru Windows 10

 

De la: Don H
Trimis: joi, 17 august 2017 16:44
Către: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subiect: [nvda] 2017.3 RC1

 

Where do I go to get NVDA 2017.3 RC1?



 



Re: Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

Quentin Christensen
 

That's the thing though, it's the NVDA User Guide, not the Windows User Guide.  The Basic Training for NVDA module has many of those general (not NVDA specific) keystrokes.

Here's a page from Microsoft with some of the general Windows keystrokes: https://support.microsoft.com/en-au/help/12445/windows-keyboard-shortcuts At the bottom it links to half a dozen more pages.  If we included all of those in the NVDA user guide, it would start to get very cluttered with things that aren't actually directly related to NVDA, even if they are useful for NVDA users.

As it is, the user guide is nearly 25,000 words.  Now whether we put a link from the User Guide to something like that Microsoft Document, could be potentially useful?


On Fri, Aug 18, 2017 at 9:31 AM, Rui Fontes <rui.fontes@...> wrote:
Hello!

I, with the help of Rui Batista, was the creator of Systray addon.
I now perfectly how to work with the systray using the proper commands, but due to some problems accessing some items on the systray, like the conexions icon, wich sometimes open the Network Flyout, I don't know if it is a menu or a window, but after being open, it is very difficult to interage with the systray...

Regarding the absence of any information about how to work with the systray is due to NVDA manual only abord the use of special NVDA commands for a few specificapps.
Maybe it is time to include some basic tutorials about Windows in general, File manager, etc...

Rui


-----Mensagem Original----- De: Gene
Data: 17 de agosto de 2017 13:02
Para: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Assunto: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes



This message is long but those interested in the system tray question may wish to read it.  Also, commands are given for using the system tray directly that most NVDA users don't know.

The system tray isn't perfectly accessible directly.  At least that used to be the case.  I don't know if users would still report problems if surveyed. I've seen instances where just using the system tray directly doesn't work properly and using the dialog does.  Until there are no such instances, even though they are rare, the argument of equal accessibility is not valid.

I don't remember the specific one or two instances I saw quite some time ago but I did see them.  In addition, rarely, something is such an expected feature and so completely incorporated into screen-readers in general, that it amounts to stubborn ideology not to include it.  the system tray dialog is an example, perhaps almost the only example I know of.  Where I live the street Goethe is pronounced Go Thee.  This is incorrect according to German pronunciation and the playwright's name should be pronounced gurta, as an approximation.  But even radio stations here that are extremely demanding about proper pronunciation pronounce it Go thee when giving addresses or discussing the street.  There are just certain times when something is so entrenched that you just do it.

The system tray dialog wasn't originally adopted by screen-reader developers as a means of discouraging use of an existing Windows structure.  When first adopted during Windows 98, the system tray was completely inaccessible. Microsoft later made it accessible but by that time, the dialog had become very entrenched and it was continued. If we were starting over and the system tray was accessible from the outset, a good argument could be made for direct access and no dialog.  It can't be made now and the dialog should be a part of NVDA, not an attachment.

Also, using the system tray is not, unless the manual has changed,  properly documented.  I've looked at this off and on over the years to see if the manual has changed and it never has.  I haven't checked recently.  Using the system tray directly is mentioned but the necessary commands are not given nor is there a special section, linked to as a section, that discusses this. Since very few blind people will know the necessary commands, a problem is created for them with no solution given.

Unless the following commands are given, the discussion of using the system tray in the manual or in any tutorials is almost useless.

Enter is double left click.
Space bar is single left click.
the context menu key is right single click.
You can move through the system tray using single letter navigation or by left and right arrowing through the items.
Windows key b is the short cut to move to the system tray.
All this is necessary to be explained in a section specifically dedicated to working directly with the system tray.

Also, there was a problem in Windows 7 which I don't know if it exists in Windows 8 or 10 but if it does, it also belies the system tray works perfectly directly argument in those versions of Windows.  It certainly doesn't work perfectly in this respect in Windows 7.
In Windows 7, when you start a new Windows session and you are arrowing through the system tray, when you get to the connections are available WIFI icon, something is opened just by moving to it which shouldn't be opened.  I don't recall now just what it is but it may be a menu.  As I recall, if you close the menu, it doesn't open automatically again for the rest of the Windows session but that is not what I would call a compelling behavior that encourages blind people to use the system tray directly.

A general standard for when to make and not make changes and provide extra features is fine and I believe that adding features should be considered with care.  But no ideological position addresses all situations correctly.

While NVDA generally follows good guidelines in my opinion on such matters, the rare occasions when it doesn't, may cause unnecessary problems for a lot of users and present little or no benefits in not adopting something.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Quentin Christensen
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 3:23 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

Hi Gene,

Thanks for all that info!  I don't have a problem with someone coming out and saying where NVDA has deficiencies (ideally, do it here where it is among the community, or by e-mail to us, where those with a direct interest in NVDA can discuss it civilly, rather than in an external public forum, preferably).

It's certainly true that when a feature is requested, one of the questions to be answered is "what information do sighted users receive visually?" Whatever the answer is, doesn't necessarily mean the feature is not worthwhile or warranted.  I would argue that, where possible and efficient, it's preferable to perform the same tasks as sighted users, or using standard keystrokes rather than reinventing the wheel.  A good example is accessing the system tray.  Some other screen readers have a command to present the contents of the system tray in a new window, NVDA does not.  The reason we don't, is that the contents of the system tray are already perfectly accessible with the WINDOWS+B command.  The advantage of a dedicated window is that you guarantee you have all the icons there, where depending on your setup, using WINDOWS+B you may need to move to the "overflow" area, or else know how to set the option to always show all icons.

There was a question in that issue thread you posted, about well, why does NVDA have an elements list dialog?  That's a good example where yes you could get around a web page with tab and / or the arrow keys, but it wouldn't be efficient, and it would make accessing the web very burdensome. In addition, sighted users can jump directly to parts of the page using the mouse - either by clicking on a form field such as an edit box, or by scrolling the page down in which case their eyes instantly jump to prominent features such as headings.  Back to the system tray, the sighted user will likely use the mouse rather than WINOWS+B, but the result is the same and for similar effort - the focus moves to the system tray, where they can left or right click (enter or applications key) on an icon to access its features.

Back to the specific question in this thread, which is announcing when text has been copied, cut or pasted.  The last conversation I had on the issue was, as I said before, that the way I believed tools such as clipspeak do it, was not truly by knowing that something has been copied, but by evaluating where the focus was, and what was selected as to whether something was likely to have been copied.  That may in virtually all situations, and if so, there may be a question of "is that good enough"?

If you believe things have progressed or you can bring a new argument in favour, I'd encourage you to create a new GitHub issue.

Personally, I think since NVDA has the ability to read the clipboard contents, then announcing when things are copied or pasted is a natural enough progression, as long as it can be done accurately and without undue overhead.

I don't take anything you've written as being an attack on anyone or disrespectful.  Indeed, it's healthy to have these discussions.  Yes, the developers do get the final say on what goes into core, so you need to convince them to add or change features, but unlike other screen readers, even if they say they won't add it, there is still ready access for someone with the skills to submit the code themselves (often, Mick, Jamie and Reef might not be against an idea, but not be able to prioritise it high enough to work on themselves immediately) or create an add-on.

Regards

Quentin.


On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 4:26 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

Here is the discussion I told you about where including a read clipboard contents command is debated.
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/193
As I said, it was like pulling teeth to get this feature included.  I didn't read the entire discussion and I don't remember if anything was decided at that time.  but again the assertion is made, that is incorrect based on my years of experience, that when something is copied or pasted to or from the clipboard, that whether the events occurred or not can't be accurately determined.  I've already addressed this in my previous message.  but with this sort of rigid ideology, is it any wonder that this false assertion wasn't tested an evaluated and that no effort has been made to add copy and paste announcements to NVDA?  And in complete contradiction to this rigid ideology, why is there a links list in Browse Mode?  Why can this be altered to move by headings and other structures?  No sighted person has a links list or any other such structure.  So not only is this ideology rigid and in some cases obstructive, it isn't consistently applied.

I am not in any way expressing a lack of appreciation for all of the excellent work done by NVDA developers and the time and effort it took.  but I am very frustrated when I see a feature that blind people have asked for for more than five years being shown no interest because ideology dictates that it shouldn't be considered.  Also, if people feel that they should pull their punches when discussing deficiencies in NVDA because they think that gratitude should cause them not to discuss them or do so meekly and mildly, they are not doing anyone any service.

Gene
From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 1:08 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

This message is rather long but that's because to explain my position takes time and space.  I have gone to the trouble because this has been an issue of frustration to me for years.

I may be wrong when I thought that the main reason was that the developers didn't want NvDA to give information sighted users don't have.  But the reason given, as far back as about 2009 was incorrect based on all my years of experience with JAWS.  I didn't use System Access long enough to make such a statement but I did use it enough to say that I never saw an inaccurate report in that screen-reader.  I tested both screen-readers by not having anything selected and using the copy and paste commands.  In those tests, neither screen-reader reported any action.  the entire premise given in about 2009 is incorrect.  I shall provide a link to the brief discussion I found.  Perhaps I can find more discussion because this is such a recurring request over the years.  As I recall, Window-eyes at least for a time, did use a key label to indicate copy and paste which would have been inaccurate if nothing happened.  It is the only popular screen-reader in america that did this.  I don't know what Dolphin (spelling) did.  but I do know that in my roughly twelve years of using JAWS, I never once got a false report and in the times I used System Access, I didn't get a false report either.  I haven't received a false report using the NVDA add on for about two weeks either and I was alerted that my attempt to copy a file to the clipboard had failed, which saved me time and trouble.

I don't have to technical knowledge to assess if the developer of the add on is correct in asserting that errors may occur when using his add on.  I can say with confidence that this feature can be accurate, based on twelve years' experience with JAWS.

Here is the link to the discussion:
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/75

Aside from my previous objections, note the following quote:
This is an unreasonable expectation that can't, literally can't, be complied with.  When copying text to the clipboard, the speak clipboard feature can verify that it has been copied.  But when copying files or folders, there is no way to check except to paste them where desired, only to find that nothing was pasted because nothing was copied or the the wrong files and folders from a previous copy to the clipboard were pasted in the wrong. place.

Of course, it is desirable that users become confident and competent computer users.  but many times, I have properly issued the copy command and I know I issued it correctly.  I then tried to paste what I had copied to find that I had copied nothing.  This didn't just happen once or twice but many times over a period of time when copying text or files and folders.

It is also much more efficient to hear a simple copied or copied to clipboard when copying text than to have to issue the speak clipboard contents command, listen for a moment to make sure that the material was copied, then continue with what I was doing.  And in the case of copying large amounts of material, it isn't read.  You are told how many characters have been copied.  Let's say you copy 23,374 characters to the clipboard, then listen to the announcement of how many characters you copy by issuing the speak clipboard contents command.  You then paste it where you want it. Then you copy other text to the clipboard, or attempt to.  Is it reasonable that the user should remember the number of characters he copied the last time so that he can compare that number with the number he heard announced after copying the new material?  ans suppose the number is of similar or rather similar size. Let's say I copy 23,374 the first time.  Let's say that the second time, I hear 23,265.  Is it really reasonable that someone, while writing something like a research paper, be expected to remember such numbers whether they are similar or not?
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Quentin Christensen
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 11:44 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

Thanks Gene,

I hadn't specifically looked into the way other screen readers handled it. The notes for ClipSpeak say: "In order to prevent announcement in inappropriate situations, Clipspeak performs checks on the control and the clipboard in order to make an informed decision as to whether such an announcement is necessary. Because of this, Clipspeak's announcements may be inaccurate."


The point is that add-ons like these react to the keystroke, check the environment and whether the command (copy, paste etc) is theoretically possible, and then gives the report.  It is NOT confirmation that such an action has taken place, which is why we are reluctant to add it to core.  If we could be sure of that, I'd be all for adding it to core.  The argument about sighted users not having a visual indicator actually isn't 100% correct.  There is nothing on screen to say text was copied or pasted, however if you have text selected and you cut it, the text disappears visually.  If you paste text, then text suddenly appears in your document (or wherever).


In the meantime, the clipspeak add-on works for the most part I believe. Just to be clear, I was never having a go at those who use the add-on, my suggestion to disable it was simply to take eliminate one possible variable when investigating the original problem.


Regards


Quentin.


On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 2:27 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

That isn't correct.  I wrote about this a year or two ago when the topic came up for discussion one of the times that it did.  I tested JAWS and it knows when information is copied, as does System Access, which I also tested.  I don't remember if I tested Window-eyes and, clearly, clip speak does as well.  If it didn't, I wouldn't see a no change message when no change has occurred.  Also, it would be a needless duplication of the fake clipboard announcement add on that has been available for years.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Quentin Christensen
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 11:17 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

The reason why "cut", "copy", "paste" etc aren't always announced is simply that just because that is the common use for control+x, control+c and control+v respectively, we can't always tell whether anything was actually cut, copied or pasted.  To our knowledge, the way other screen readers which do announce this do it, is the same way that clip speak does - they announce it in most places because that is what usually happens, but it is possible there was an error or something else which prevented it, in which case telling the user text was copied is misleading.  There is also the "speak command keys" either via the keyboard preferences (NVDA+control+k) or directly with NVDA+4.  Note that NVDA does announce when text is copied in certain situations, particularly when using the review cursor where it was NVDA itself that copied the text.




On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 2:09 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

I use a very old version most of the time because I like the way review modes are offered in the interface as opposed to the newer versions.  It isn't an important diffference but since this version, one of the 13 versions, meets my needs and I prefer that part of the interface, I keep using it.

I don't know what kind of problems you are having specifically and whether I might have any suggestions.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: nasrin khaksar
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 9:50 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

hi gene.
i again forgot which version of nvda do you use?
i yesterday tested 2012.2 version of nvda and realized that nvda has
many inconsistency using farsi language and i did not see any of these
problems in flat review.
whats the solution for me?
thanks so much and God bless you!

On 8/17/17, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
I'm not sure why this is, but based on my experience and on a message or two
from others, at times, Clip Speak causes odd things to happen.  It works
well on my machine in general but when I use Freemake video converter, Clip
Speak doesn't allow me to paste a youtube address into the address field. I
assume that disabling it would stop the problem but the version of NVDA I
use is too old to have disable available.  So I run a version of NVDA
without Clip Speak installed and the problem disappears.

I consider it well worth that slight inconvenience to get real time and
accurate feed back about copying and pasting.  Once I was copying a file, as
I recall, and Clip Speak told me that there had been no change.  I don't
recall what I did after that but I got it to copy by fooling around in some
way.  Maybe I just opened and closed My Computer and went back to the files
list.  If I hadn't been using Clip Speak, I would have gone through the
trouble of trying to paste a file that wasn't on the clipboard.  I would
have failed and had to do more work.  There is simply no way of getting
around it.  This feature should be and should have been built into NVDA from
the outset.  Not to do so is to allow ideology about what screen-readers
should and shouldn't do to override practical experience and common sense.
There are rare instances when screen-readers should tell blind users things
that a sighted person might not be informed of.  That is the reason I've
always heard from developers about why the feature isn't in the program,
that Windows doesn't indicate to sighted users when copying and pasting take
place.  Is that true?  I was informed many years ago by a sighted user that
there is some sort of icon, as I recall.  Whatever the case, that argument
is, in my strong opinion irrelevant.

A lot of NVDA users will never know about this add on.  And if the add on
had been incorporated into program code at the outset, the bugs we are
finding now would either not have existed or would have been worked out
long, long ago.

I'm very pleased that the add on has been developed but I still very
strongly believe that this feature should be and should have been
incorporated into NVDA from the outset.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Quentin Christensen
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 6:57 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various
modes


I wonder if it's that clipspeak program?  If you try disabling / quitting
that and then copying text from WordPad does it still paste the embedded
object?


On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 3:48 AM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
<bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:

  Well, I'm just plain awkward, quite obviously. I do not like the wordpad
in 7. Its got ribbons I think and defaults to some strange file type.
However, I find in word that if you paste in browse mode you get an embedded
object in focus mode it will work but clipspeak when active generates a word
out of memory error, which is totally spurious as it pastes in any case.
  Brian

  bglists@...
  Sent via blueyonder.
  Please address personal email to:-
  briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
  in the display name field.
  ----- Original Message ----- From: "Quentin Christensen"
<quentin@...>
  To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
  Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 1:04 PM
  Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various
modes




    You're using Windows 7, and which version of Office?  Are you using the
    standard WordPad that comes with Windows or are you saying you've
copied
    the version out of XP?

    I just tried it on Windows 10 using the build it WordPad and Office
2016
    and everything worked as it should, but looks like that's a completely
    different system to yours.  I'll try on my WIndows 7 PC in the morning.

    When Word starts, NVDA *should* be in focus mode.  If you change to
Browse
    mode (NVDA+spacebar) then you shouldn't be able to type as it will be
    looking for letters as single letter navigation keys to jump to
elements.
    You can paste text in this mode but you really need to go into focus
mode
    to manipulate it.

    In Word's paste special options, which you can get to with
control+alt+v,
    you can paste a "Wordpad document object" (after opening the dialog,
you
    need to press up arrow once then enter - at least in Office 2016). That
is
    basically an object box - like a picture or a text box or a chart, in
your
    document.  Visually it looks like whatever text you copied out of
WordPad,
    and when you activate or edit it, a Wordpad window opens with the text
    inside.

    To edit / activate it, you can double click it with the mouse,  There
    doesn't seem to be a simple, equivalent keyboard shortcut that I can
find,
    but if you open the context menu, you can select "Wordpad document
object",
    then edit.



    On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 7:31 PM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
<
    bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:


      OK, we have an rtf document in Wordpad
      We have a blank Microsoft word. When Word opens the mode is
apparently
      normally in brose, but you can type into the file this way.
      However say you grab some text from Wordpad and attempt to paste it
into
      word. It does not work as expected, you end up with an embedded object
in
      the file.
      However if you switch word to focus mode, you can paste it in as
normal.
      Is this expected or a bug?

      Note here that  since I have clipspeak involved, when I try to paste
in
      focus mode I get the out of memory warning which is bogus and can be
      ignored due to who knows what.
      I'd be particularly interested in people with different versions of
      operating systems wordpad and word, as I tend to use the xp wordpad in
7
      and an older style ie normal menus, version of word. Everything else
seems
      fine. I just need to remember to switch modes. I'm just wondering what
the
      embedded object pasted actually is?
      Brian

      bglists@...
      Sent via blueyonder.
      Please address personal email to:-
      briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
      in the display name field.







    --
    Quentin Christensen
    Training and Support Manager

    Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now
available:
    http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

    Ph +61 7 3149 3306
    www.nvaccess.org
    Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
    Twitter: @NVAccess













--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available:
http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/


Ph +61 7 3149 3306
www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess




--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration is:
imam hosein is the beacon of light and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
al-islam.org












--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/


Ph +61 7 3149 3306
www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess










--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/


Ph +61 7 3149 3306
www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess










--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/


Ph +61 7 3149 3306
www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess








--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


Re: Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

Rui Fontes
 

Hello!

QTranslate icon is one example where Space and Enter have different behaviours.

It will be possible to include, or make available the download of some basic tutorials, to help the users?

Rui



-----Mensagem Original-----
De: Quentin Christensen
Data: 18 de agosto de 2017 00:13
Para: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Assunto: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes


Hi Gene,

Just on your point about the system tray commands needing to be taught, I agree that people should know them, however exactly where to cover them is the issue. They are not NVDA commands, therefore are not suitable to be put in the NVDA User Guide. They do get a mention in the Basic Training for NVDA module since that does walk the user through learning how to use the computer as a whole with NVDA.

Are you sure there is a difference between pressing spacebar and pressing ENTER on an icon? I have never noticed one? A mouse user would normally single click on an icon to activate it. I don't recall any instance where you need to double click on a system tray icon. It's mostly the desktop icons you need to double click to activate.

On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 10:02 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

This message is long but those interested in the system tray question may wish to read it. Also, commands are given for using the system tray directly that most NVDA users don't know.

The system tray isn't perfectly accessible directly. At least that used to be the case. I don't know if users would still report problems if surveyed. I've seen instances where just using the system tray directly doesn't work properly and using the dialog does. Until there are no such instances, even though they are rare, the argument of equal accessibility is not valid.

I don't remember the specific one or two instances I saw quite some time ago but I did see them. In addition, rarely, something is such an expected feature and so completely incorporated into screen-readers in general, that it amounts to stubborn ideology not to include it. the system tray dialog is an example, perhaps almost the only example I know of. Where I live the street Goethe is pronounced Go Thee. This is incorrect according to German pronunciation and the playwright's name should be pronounced gurta, as an approximation. But even radio stations here that are extremely demanding about proper pronunciation pronounce it Go thee when giving addresses or discussing the street. There are just certain times when something is so entrenched that you just do it.

The system tray dialog wasn't originally adopted by screen-reader developers as a means of discouraging use of an existing Windows structure. When first adopted during Windows 98, the system tray was completely inaccessible. Microsoft later made it accessible but by that time, the dialog had become very entrenched and it was continued. If we were starting over and the system tray was accessible from the outset, a good argument could be made for direct access and no dialog. It can't be made now and the dialog should be a part of NVDA, not an attachment.

Also, using the system tray is not, unless the manual has changed, properly documented. I've looked at this off and on over the years to see if the manual has changed and it never has. I haven't checked recently. Using the system tray directly is mentioned but the necessary commands are not given nor is there a special section, linked to as a section, that discusses this. Since very few blind people will know the necessary commands, a problem is created for them with no solution given.

Unless the following commands are given, the discussion of using the system tray in the manual or in any tutorials is almost useless.

Enter is double left click.
Space bar is single left click.
the context menu key is right single click.
You can move through the system tray using single letter navigation or by left and right arrowing through the items.
Windows key b is the short cut to move to the system tray.
All this is necessary to be explained in a section specifically dedicated to working directly with the system tray.

Also, there was a problem in Windows 7 which I don't know if it exists in Windows 8 or 10 but if it does, it also belies the system tray works perfectly directly argument in those versions of Windows. It certainly doesn't work perfectly in this respect in Windows 7.
In Windows 7, when you start a new Windows session and you are arrowing through the system tray, when you get to the connections are available WIFI icon, something is opened just by moving to it which shouldn't be opened. I don't recall now just what it is but it may be a menu. As I recall, if you close the menu, it doesn't open automatically again for the rest of the Windows session but that is not what I would call a compelling behavior that encourages blind people to use the system tray directly.

A general standard for when to make and not make changes and provide extra features is fine and I believe that adding features should be considered with care. But no ideological position addresses all situations correctly.

While NVDA generally follows good guidelines in my opinion on such matters, the rare occasions when it doesn't, may cause unnecessary problems for a lot of users and present little or no benefits in not adopting something.


Gene
----- Original Message -----


From: Quentin Christensen
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 3:23 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

Hi Gene,

Thanks for all that info! I don't have a problem with someone coming out and saying where NVDA has deficiencies (ideally, do it here where it is among the community, or by e-mail to us, where those with a direct interest in NVDA can discuss it civilly, rather than in an external public forum, preferably).

It's certainly true that when a feature is requested, one of the questions to be answered is "what information do sighted users receive visually?" Whatever the answer is, doesn't necessarily mean the feature is not worthwhile or warranted. I would argue that, where possible and efficient, it's preferable to perform the same tasks as sighted users, or using standard keystrokes rather than reinventing the wheel. A good example is accessing the system tray. Some other screen readers have a command to present the contents of the system tray in a new window, NVDA does not. The reason we don't, is that the contents of the system tray are already perfectly accessible with the WINDOWS+B command. The advantage of a dedicated window is that you guarantee you have all the icons there, where depending on your setup, using WINDOWS+B you may need to move to the "overflow" area, or else know how to set the option to always show all icons.

There was a question in that issue thread you posted, about well, why does NVDA have an elements list dialog? That's a good example where yes you could get around a web page with tab and / or the arrow keys, but it wouldn't be efficient, and it would make accessing the web very burdensome. In addition, sighted users can jump directly to parts of the page using the mouse - either by clicking on a form field such as an edit box, or by scrolling the page down in which case their eyes instantly jump to prominent features such as headings. Back to the system tray, the sighted user will likely use the mouse rather than WINOWS+B, but the result is the same and for similar effort - the focus moves to the system tray, where they can left or right click (enter or applications key) on an icon to access its features.

Back to the specific question in this thread, which is announcing when text has been copied, cut or pasted. The last conversation I had on the issue was, as I said before, that the way I believed tools such as clipspeak do it, was not truly by knowing that something has been copied, but by evaluating where the focus was, and what was selected as to whether something was likely to have been copied. That may in virtually all situations, and if so, there may be a question of "is that good enough"?

If you believe things have progressed or you can bring a new argument in favour, I'd encourage you to create a new GitHub issue.

Personally, I think since NVDA has the ability to read the clipboard contents, then announcing when things are copied or pasted is a natural enough progression, as long as it can be done accurately and without undue overhead.

I don't take anything you've written as being an attack on anyone or disrespectful. Indeed, it's healthy to have these discussions. Yes, the developers do get the final say on what goes into core, so you need to convince them to add or change features, but unlike other screen readers, even if they say they won't add it, there is still ready access for someone with the skills to submit the code themselves (often, Mick, Jamie and Reef might not be against an idea, but not be able to prioritise it high enough to work on themselves immediately) or create an add-on.

Regards

Quentin.


On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 4:26 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

Here is the discussion I told you about where including a read clipboard contents command is debated.
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/193
As I said, it was like pulling teeth to get this feature included. I didn't read the entire discussion and I don't remember if anything was decided at that time. but again the assertion is made, that is incorrect based on my years of experience, that when something is copied or pasted to or from the clipboard, that whether the events occurred or not can't be accurately determined. I've already addressed this in my previous message. but with this sort of rigid ideology, is it any wonder that this false assertion wasn't tested an evaluated and that no effort has been made to add copy and paste announcements to NVDA? And in complete contradiction to this rigid ideology, why is there a links list in Browse Mode? Why can this be altered to move by headings and other structures? No sighted person has a links list or any other such structure. So not only is this ideology rigid and in some cases obstructive, it isn't consistently applied.

I am not in any way expressing a lack of appreciation for all of the excellent work done by NVDA developers and the time and effort it took. but I am very frustrated when I see a feature that blind people have asked for for more than five years being shown no interest because ideology dictates that it shouldn't be considered. Also, if people feel that they should pull their punches when discussing deficiencies in NVDA because they think that gratitude should cause them not to discuss them or do so meekly and mildly, they are not doing anyone any service.

Gene
From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 1:08 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

This message is rather long but that's because to explain my position takes time and space. I have gone to the trouble because this has been an issue of frustration to me for years.

I may be wrong when I thought that the main reason was that the developers didn't want NvDA to give information sighted users don't have. But the reason given, as far back as about 2009 was incorrect based on all my years of experience with JAWS. I didn't use System Access long enough to make such a statement but I did use it enough to say that I never saw an inaccurate report in that screen-reader. I tested both screen-readers by not having anything selected and using the copy and paste commands. In those tests, neither screen-reader reported any action. the entire premise given in about 2009 is incorrect. I shall provide a link to the brief discussion I found. Perhaps I can find more discussion because this is such a recurring request over the years. As I recall, Window-eyes at least for a time, did use a key label to indicate copy and paste which would have been inaccurate if nothing happened. It is the only popular screen-reader in america that did this. I don't know what Dolphin (spelling) did. but I do know that in my roughly twelve years of using JAWS, I never once got a false report and in the times I used System Access, I didn't get a false report either. I haven't received a false report using the NVDA add on for about two weeks either and I was alerted that my attempt to copy a file to the clipboard had failed, which saved me time and trouble.

I don't have to technical knowledge to assess if the developer of the add on is correct in asserting that errors may occur when using his add on. I can say with confidence that this feature can be accurate, based on twelve years' experience with JAWS.

Here is the link to the discussion:
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/75

Aside from my previous objections, note the following quote:
This is an unreasonable expectation that can't, literally can't, be complied with. When copying text to the clipboard, the speak clipboard feature can verify that it has been copied. But when copying files or folders, there is no way to check except to paste them where desired, only to find that nothing was pasted because nothing was copied or the the wrong files and folders from a previous copy to the clipboard were pasted in the wrong. place.

Of course, it is desirable that users become confident and competent computer users. but many times, I have properly issued the copy command and I know I issued it correctly. I then tried to paste what I had copied to find that I had copied nothing. This didn't just happen once or twice but many times over a period of time when copying text or files and folders.

It is also much more efficient to hear a simple copied or copied to clipboard when copying text than to have to issue the speak clipboard contents command, listen for a moment to make sure that the material was copied, then continue with what I was doing. And in the case of copying large amounts of material, it isn't read. You are told how many characters have been copied. Let's say you copy 23,374 characters to the clipboard, then listen to the announcement of how many characters you copy by issuing the speak clipboard contents command. You then paste it where you want it. Then you copy other text to the clipboard, or attempt to. Is it reasonable that the user should remember the number of characters he copied the last time so that he can compare that number with the number he heard announced after copying the new material? ans suppose the number is of similar or rather similar size. Let's say I copy 23,374 the first time. Let's say that the second time, I hear 23,265. Is it really reasonable that someone, while writing something like a research paper, be expected to remember such numbers whether they are similar or not?
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Quentin Christensen
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 11:44 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

Thanks Gene,

I hadn't specifically looked into the way other screen readers handled it. The notes for ClipSpeak say: "In order to prevent announcement in inappropriate situations, Clipspeak performs checks on the control and the clipboard in order to make an informed decision as to whether such an announcement is necessary. Because of this, Clipspeak's announcements may be inaccurate."


The point is that add-ons like these react to the keystroke, check the environment and whether the command (copy, paste etc) is theoretically possible, and then gives the report. It is NOT confirmation that such an action has taken place, which is why we are reluctant to add it to core. If we could be sure of that, I'd be all for adding it to core. The argument about sighted users not having a visual indicator actually isn't 100% correct. There is nothing on screen to say text was copied or pasted, however if you have text selected and you cut it, the text disappears visually. If you paste text, then text suddenly appears in your document (or wherever).


In the meantime, the clipspeak add-on works for the most part I believe. Just to be clear, I was never having a go at those who use the add-on, my suggestion to disable it was simply to take eliminate one possible variable when investigating the original problem.


Regards


Quentin.


On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 2:27 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

That isn't correct. I wrote about this a year or two ago when the topic came up for discussion one of the times that it did. I tested JAWS and it knows when information is copied, as does System Access, which I also tested. I don't remember if I tested Window-eyes and, clearly, clip speak does as well. If it didn't, I wouldn't see a no change message when no change has occurred. Also, it would be a needless duplication of the fake clipboard announcement add on that has been available for years.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Quentin Christensen
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 11:17 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

The reason why "cut", "copy", "paste" etc aren't always announced is simply that just because that is the common use for control+x, control+c and control+v respectively, we can't always tell whether anything was actually cut, copied or pasted. To our knowledge, the way other screen readers which do announce this do it, is the same way that clip speak does - they announce it in most places because that is what usually happens, but it is possible there was an error or something else which prevented it, in which case telling the user text was copied is misleading. There is also the "speak command keys" either via the keyboard preferences (NVDA+control+k) or directly with NVDA+4. Note that NVDA does announce when text is copied in certain situations, particularly when using the review cursor where it was NVDA itself that copied the text.




On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 2:09 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

I use a very old version most of the time because I like the way review modes are offered in the interface as opposed to the newer versions. It isn't an important diffference but since this version, one of the 13 versions, meets my needs and I prefer that part of the interface, I keep using it.

I don't know what kind of problems you are having specifically and whether I might have any suggestions.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: nasrin khaksar
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 9:50 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

hi gene.
i again forgot which version of nvda do you use?
i yesterday tested 2012.2 version of nvda and realized that nvda has
many inconsistency using farsi language and i did not see any of these
problems in flat review.
whats the solution for me?
thanks so much and God bless you!

On 8/17/17, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
I'm not sure why this is, but based on my experience and on a message or two
from others, at times, Clip Speak causes odd things to happen. It works
well on my machine in general but when I use Freemake video converter, Clip
Speak doesn't allow me to paste a youtube address into the address field. I
assume that disabling it would stop the problem but the version of NVDA I
use is too old to have disable available. So I run a version of NVDA
without Clip Speak installed and the problem disappears.

I consider it well worth that slight inconvenience to get real time and
accurate feed back about copying and pasting. Once I was copying a file, as
I recall, and Clip Speak told me that there had been no change. I don't
recall what I did after that but I got it to copy by fooling around in some
way. Maybe I just opened and closed My Computer and went back to the files
list. If I hadn't been using Clip Speak, I would have gone through the
trouble of trying to paste a file that wasn't on the clipboard. I would
have failed and had to do more work. There is simply no way of getting
around it. This feature should be and should have been built into NVDA from
the outset. Not to do so is to allow ideology about what screen-readers
should and shouldn't do to override practical experience and common sense.
There are rare instances when screen-readers should tell blind users things
that a sighted person might not be informed of. That is the reason I've
always heard from developers about why the feature isn't in the program,
that Windows doesn't indicate to sighted users when copying and pasting take
place. Is that true? I was informed many years ago by a sighted user that
there is some sort of icon, as I recall. Whatever the case, that argument
is, in my strong opinion irrelevant.

A lot of NVDA users will never know about this add on. And if the add on
had been incorporated into program code at the outset, the bugs we are
finding now would either not have existed or would have been worked out
long, long ago.

I'm very pleased that the add on has been developed but I still very
strongly believe that this feature should be and should have been
incorporated into NVDA from the outset.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Quentin Christensen
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 6:57 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various
modes


I wonder if it's that clipspeak program? If you try disabling / quitting
that and then copying text from WordPad does it still paste the embedded
object?


On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 3:48 AM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
<bglists@...> wrote:

Well, I'm just plain awkward, quite obviously. I do not like the wordpad
in 7. Its got ribbons I think and defaults to some strange file type.
However, I find in word that if you paste in browse mode you get an embedded
object in focus mode it will work but clipspeak when active generates a word
out of memory error, which is totally spurious as it pastes in any case.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Quentin Christensen"
<quentin@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 1:04 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various
modes




You're using Windows 7, and which version of Office? Are you using the
standard WordPad that comes with Windows or are you saying you've
copied
the version out of XP?

I just tried it on Windows 10 using the build it WordPad and Office
2016
and everything worked as it should, but looks like that's a completely
different system to yours. I'll try on my WIndows 7 PC in the morning.

When Word starts, NVDA *should* be in focus mode. If you change to
Browse
mode (NVDA+spacebar) then you shouldn't be able to type as it will be
looking for letters as single letter navigation keys to jump to
elements.
You can paste text in this mode but you really need to go into focus
mode
to manipulate it.

In Word's paste special options, which you can get to with
control+alt+v,
you can paste a "Wordpad document object" (after opening the dialog,
you
need to press up arrow once then enter - at least in Office 2016). That
is
basically an object box - like a picture or a text box or a chart, in
your
document. Visually it looks like whatever text you copied out of
WordPad,
and when you activate or edit it, a Wordpad window opens with the text
inside.

To edit / activate it, you can double click it with the mouse, There
doesn't seem to be a simple, equivalent keyboard shortcut that I can
find,
but if you open the context menu, you can select "Wordpad document
object",
then edit.



On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 7:31 PM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
<
bglists@...> wrote:


OK, we have an rtf document in Wordpad
We have a blank Microsoft word. When Word opens the mode is
apparently
normally in brose, but you can type into the file this way.
However say you grab some text from Wordpad and attempt to paste it
into
word. It does not work as expected, you end up with an embedded object
in
the file.
However if you switch word to focus mode, you can paste it in as
normal.
Is this expected or a bug?

Note here that since I have clipspeak involved, when I try to paste
in
focus mode I get the out of memory warning which is bogus and can be
ignored due to who knows what.
I'd be particularly interested in people with different versions of
operating systems wordpad and word, as I tend to use the xp wordpad in
7
and an older style ie normal menus, version of word. Everything else
seems
fine. I just need to remember to switch modes. I'm just wondering what
the
embedded object pasted actually is?
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.







--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now
available:
http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Ph +61 7 3149 3306
www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess













--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available:
http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/


Ph +61 7 3149 3306
www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess


--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration is:
imam hosein is the beacon of light and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
al-islam.org












--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/


Ph +61 7 3149 3306
www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess










--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/


Ph +61 7 3149 3306
www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess










--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/


Ph +61 7 3149 3306
www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess










--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/


Ph +61 7 3149 3306
www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess


Re: RSS feed for NVDA blog?

 

That worked! I wonder why Firefox did not pick it up when on the NVDA home page? Oh well, this feed works!


On 8/17/2017 6:39 PM, Quentin Christensen wrote:
Ah, in that case, try simply: https://www.nvaccess.org/feed/

Regards

Quentin.

On Fri, Aug 18, 2017 at 9:27 AM, Robert Kingett <kingettr@...> wrote:
thanks! I have the in process RSS feed but I also would like, well, all updates, the everything RSS feed if you will, the one that includes in process and NVDA releases and annnouncesments like the jamie teh one.






--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 



Re: RSS feed for NVDA blog?

Quentin Christensen
 

Ah, in that case, try simply: https://www.nvaccess.org/feed/

Regards

Quentin.

On Fri, Aug 18, 2017 at 9:27 AM, Robert Kingett <kingettr@...> wrote:
thanks! I have the in process RSS feed but I also would like, well, all updates, the everything RSS feed if you will, the one that includes in process and NVDA releases and annnouncesments like the jamie teh one.






--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


Re: Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

Rui Fontes
 

Hello!

I, with the help of Rui Batista, was the creator of Systray addon.
I now perfectly how to work with the systray using the proper commands, but due to some problems accessing some items on the systray, like the conexions icon, wich sometimes open the Network Flyout, I don't know if it is a menu or a window, but after being open, it is very difficult to interage with the systray...

Regarding the absence of any information about how to work with the systray is due to NVDA manual only abord the use of special NVDA commands for a few specificapps.
Maybe it is time to include some basic tutorials about Windows in general, File manager, etc...

Rui


-----Mensagem Original-----
De: Gene
Data: 17 de agosto de 2017 13:02
Para: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Assunto: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes


This message is long but those interested in the system tray question may wish to read it. Also, commands are given for using the system tray directly that most NVDA users don't know.

The system tray isn't perfectly accessible directly. At least that used to be the case. I don't know if users would still report problems if surveyed. I've seen instances where just using the system tray directly doesn't work properly and using the dialog does. Until there are no such instances, even though they are rare, the argument of equal accessibility is not valid.

I don't remember the specific one or two instances I saw quite some time ago but I did see them. In addition, rarely, something is such an expected feature and so completely incorporated into screen-readers in general, that it amounts to stubborn ideology not to include it. the system tray dialog is an example, perhaps almost the only example I know of. Where I live the street Goethe is pronounced Go Thee. This is incorrect according to German pronunciation and the playwright's name should be pronounced gurta, as an approximation. But even radio stations here that are extremely demanding about proper pronunciation pronounce it Go thee when giving addresses or discussing the street. There are just certain times when something is so entrenched that you just do it.

The system tray dialog wasn't originally adopted by screen-reader developers as a means of discouraging use of an existing Windows structure. When first adopted during Windows 98, the system tray was completely inaccessible. Microsoft later made it accessible but by that time, the dialog had become very entrenched and it was continued. If we were starting over and the system tray was accessible from the outset, a good argument could be made for direct access and no dialog. It can't be made now and the dialog should be a part of NVDA, not an attachment.

Also, using the system tray is not, unless the manual has changed, properly documented. I've looked at this off and on over the years to see if the manual has changed and it never has. I haven't checked recently. Using the system tray directly is mentioned but the necessary commands are not given nor is there a special section, linked to as a section, that discusses this. Since very few blind people will know the necessary commands, a problem is created for them with no solution given.

Unless the following commands are given, the discussion of using the system tray in the manual or in any tutorials is almost useless.

Enter is double left click.
Space bar is single left click.
the context menu key is right single click.
You can move through the system tray using single letter navigation or by left and right arrowing through the items.
Windows key b is the short cut to move to the system tray.
All this is necessary to be explained in a section specifically dedicated to working directly with the system tray.

Also, there was a problem in Windows 7 which I don't know if it exists in Windows 8 or 10 but if it does, it also belies the system tray works perfectly directly argument in those versions of Windows. It certainly doesn't work perfectly in this respect in Windows 7.
In Windows 7, when you start a new Windows session and you are arrowing through the system tray, when you get to the connections are available WIFI icon, something is opened just by moving to it which shouldn't be opened. I don't recall now just what it is but it may be a menu. As I recall, if you close the menu, it doesn't open automatically again for the rest of the Windows session but that is not what I would call a compelling behavior that encourages blind people to use the system tray directly.

A general standard for when to make and not make changes and provide extra features is fine and I believe that adding features should be considered with care. But no ideological position addresses all situations correctly.

While NVDA generally follows good guidelines in my opinion on such matters, the rare occasions when it doesn't, may cause unnecessary problems for a lot of users and present little or no benefits in not adopting something.

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Quentin Christensen
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 3:23 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

Hi Gene,

Thanks for all that info! I don't have a problem with someone coming out and saying where NVDA has deficiencies (ideally, do it here where it is among the community, or by e-mail to us, where those with a direct interest in NVDA can discuss it civilly, rather than in an external public forum, preferably).

It's certainly true that when a feature is requested, one of the questions to be answered is "what information do sighted users receive visually?" Whatever the answer is, doesn't necessarily mean the feature is not worthwhile or warranted. I would argue that, where possible and efficient, it's preferable to perform the same tasks as sighted users, or using standard keystrokes rather than reinventing the wheel. A good example is accessing the system tray. Some other screen readers have a command to present the contents of the system tray in a new window, NVDA does not. The reason we don't, is that the contents of the system tray are already perfectly accessible with the WINDOWS+B command. The advantage of a dedicated window is that you guarantee you have all the icons there, where depending on your setup, using WINDOWS+B you may need to move to the "overflow" area, or else know how to set the option to always show all icons.

There was a question in that issue thread you posted, about well, why does NVDA have an elements list dialog? That's a good example where yes you could get around a web page with tab and / or the arrow keys, but it wouldn't be efficient, and it would make accessing the web very burdensome. In addition, sighted users can jump directly to parts of the page using the mouse - either by clicking on a form field such as an edit box, or by scrolling the page down in which case their eyes instantly jump to prominent features such as headings. Back to the system tray, the sighted user will likely use the mouse rather than WINOWS+B, but the result is the same and for similar effort - the focus moves to the system tray, where they can left or right click (enter or applications key) on an icon to access its features.

Back to the specific question in this thread, which is announcing when text has been copied, cut or pasted. The last conversation I had on the issue was, as I said before, that the way I believed tools such as clipspeak do it, was not truly by knowing that something has been copied, but by evaluating where the focus was, and what was selected as to whether something was likely to have been copied. That may in virtually all situations, and if so, there may be a question of "is that good enough"?

If you believe things have progressed or you can bring a new argument in favour, I'd encourage you to create a new GitHub issue.

Personally, I think since NVDA has the ability to read the clipboard contents, then announcing when things are copied or pasted is a natural enough progression, as long as it can be done accurately and without undue overhead.

I don't take anything you've written as being an attack on anyone or disrespectful. Indeed, it's healthy to have these discussions. Yes, the developers do get the final say on what goes into core, so you need to convince them to add or change features, but unlike other screen readers, even if they say they won't add it, there is still ready access for someone with the skills to submit the code themselves (often, Mick, Jamie and Reef might not be against an idea, but not be able to prioritise it high enough to work on themselves immediately) or create an add-on.

Regards

Quentin.


On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 4:26 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

Here is the discussion I told you about where including a read clipboard contents command is debated.
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/193
As I said, it was like pulling teeth to get this feature included. I didn't read the entire discussion and I don't remember if anything was decided at that time. but again the assertion is made, that is incorrect based on my years of experience, that when something is copied or pasted to or from the clipboard, that whether the events occurred or not can't be accurately determined. I've already addressed this in my previous message. but with this sort of rigid ideology, is it any wonder that this false assertion wasn't tested an evaluated and that no effort has been made to add copy and paste announcements to NVDA? And in complete contradiction to this rigid ideology, why is there a links list in Browse Mode? Why can this be altered to move by headings and other structures? No sighted person has a links list or any other such structure. So not only is this ideology rigid and in some cases obstructive, it isn't consistently applied.

I am not in any way expressing a lack of appreciation for all of the excellent work done by NVDA developers and the time and effort it took. but I am very frustrated when I see a feature that blind people have asked for for more than five years being shown no interest because ideology dictates that it shouldn't be considered. Also, if people feel that they should pull their punches when discussing deficiencies in NVDA because they think that gratitude should cause them not to discuss them or do so meekly and mildly, they are not doing anyone any service.

Gene
From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 1:08 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

This message is rather long but that's because to explain my position takes time and space. I have gone to the trouble because this has been an issue of frustration to me for years.

I may be wrong when I thought that the main reason was that the developers didn't want NvDA to give information sighted users don't have. But the reason given, as far back as about 2009 was incorrect based on all my years of experience with JAWS. I didn't use System Access long enough to make such a statement but I did use it enough to say that I never saw an inaccurate report in that screen-reader. I tested both screen-readers by not having anything selected and using the copy and paste commands. In those tests, neither screen-reader reported any action. the entire premise given in about 2009 is incorrect. I shall provide a link to the brief discussion I found. Perhaps I can find more discussion because this is such a recurring request over the years. As I recall, Window-eyes at least for a time, did use a key label to indicate copy and paste which would have been inaccurate if nothing happened. It is the only popular screen-reader in america that did this. I don't know what Dolphin (spelling) did. but I do know that in my roughly twelve years of using JAWS, I never once got a false report and in the times I used System Access, I didn't get a false report either. I haven't received a false report using the NVDA add on for about two weeks either and I was alerted that my attempt to copy a file to the clipboard had failed, which saved me time and trouble.

I don't have to technical knowledge to assess if the developer of the add on is correct in asserting that errors may occur when using his add on. I can say with confidence that this feature can be accurate, based on twelve years' experience with JAWS.

Here is the link to the discussion:
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/75

Aside from my previous objections, note the following quote:
This is an unreasonable expectation that can't, literally can't, be complied with. When copying text to the clipboard, the speak clipboard feature can verify that it has been copied. But when copying files or folders, there is no way to check except to paste them where desired, only to find that nothing was pasted because nothing was copied or the the wrong files and folders from a previous copy to the clipboard were pasted in the wrong. place.

Of course, it is desirable that users become confident and competent computer users. but many times, I have properly issued the copy command and I know I issued it correctly. I then tried to paste what I had copied to find that I had copied nothing. This didn't just happen once or twice but many times over a period of time when copying text or files and folders.

It is also much more efficient to hear a simple copied or copied to clipboard when copying text than to have to issue the speak clipboard contents command, listen for a moment to make sure that the material was copied, then continue with what I was doing. And in the case of copying large amounts of material, it isn't read. You are told how many characters have been copied. Let's say you copy 23,374 characters to the clipboard, then listen to the announcement of how many characters you copy by issuing the speak clipboard contents command. You then paste it where you want it. Then you copy other text to the clipboard, or attempt to. Is it reasonable that the user should remember the number of characters he copied the last time so that he can compare that number with the number he heard announced after copying the new material? ans suppose the number is of similar or rather similar size. Let's say I copy 23,374 the first time. Let's say that the second time, I hear 23,265. Is it really reasonable that someone, while writing something like a research paper, be expected to remember such numbers whether they are similar or not?
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Quentin Christensen
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 11:44 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

Thanks Gene,

I hadn't specifically looked into the way other screen readers handled it. The notes for ClipSpeak say: "In order to prevent announcement in inappropriate situations, Clipspeak performs checks on the control and the clipboard in order to make an informed decision as to whether such an announcement is necessary. Because of this, Clipspeak's announcements may be inaccurate."


The point is that add-ons like these react to the keystroke, check the environment and whether the command (copy, paste etc) is theoretically possible, and then gives the report. It is NOT confirmation that such an action has taken place, which is why we are reluctant to add it to core. If we could be sure of that, I'd be all for adding it to core. The argument about sighted users not having a visual indicator actually isn't 100% correct. There is nothing on screen to say text was copied or pasted, however if you have text selected and you cut it, the text disappears visually. If you paste text, then text suddenly appears in your document (or wherever).


In the meantime, the clipspeak add-on works for the most part I believe. Just to be clear, I was never having a go at those who use the add-on, my suggestion to disable it was simply to take eliminate one possible variable when investigating the original problem.


Regards


Quentin.


On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 2:27 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

That isn't correct. I wrote about this a year or two ago when the topic came up for discussion one of the times that it did. I tested JAWS and it knows when information is copied, as does System Access, which I also tested. I don't remember if I tested Window-eyes and, clearly, clip speak does as well. If it didn't, I wouldn't see a no change message when no change has occurred. Also, it would be a needless duplication of the fake clipboard announcement add on that has been available for years.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Quentin Christensen
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 11:17 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

The reason why "cut", "copy", "paste" etc aren't always announced is simply that just because that is the common use for control+x, control+c and control+v respectively, we can't always tell whether anything was actually cut, copied or pasted. To our knowledge, the way other screen readers which do announce this do it, is the same way that clip speak does - they announce it in most places because that is what usually happens, but it is possible there was an error or something else which prevented it, in which case telling the user text was copied is misleading. There is also the "speak command keys" either via the keyboard preferences (NVDA+control+k) or directly with NVDA+4. Note that NVDA does announce when text is copied in certain situations, particularly when using the review cursor where it was NVDA itself that copied the text.




On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 2:09 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

I use a very old version most of the time because I like the way review modes are offered in the interface as opposed to the newer versions. It isn't an important diffference but since this version, one of the 13 versions, meets my needs and I prefer that part of the interface, I keep using it.

I don't know what kind of problems you are having specifically and whether I might have any suggestions.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: nasrin khaksar
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 9:50 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

hi gene.
i again forgot which version of nvda do you use?
i yesterday tested 2012.2 version of nvda and realized that nvda has
many inconsistency using farsi language and i did not see any of these
problems in flat review.
whats the solution for me?
thanks so much and God bless you!

On 8/17/17, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
I'm not sure why this is, but based on my experience and on a message or two
from others, at times, Clip Speak causes odd things to happen. It works
well on my machine in general but when I use Freemake video converter, Clip
Speak doesn't allow me to paste a youtube address into the address field. I
assume that disabling it would stop the problem but the version of NVDA I
use is too old to have disable available. So I run a version of NVDA
without Clip Speak installed and the problem disappears.

I consider it well worth that slight inconvenience to get real time and
accurate feed back about copying and pasting. Once I was copying a file, as
I recall, and Clip Speak told me that there had been no change. I don't
recall what I did after that but I got it to copy by fooling around in some
way. Maybe I just opened and closed My Computer and went back to the files
list. If I hadn't been using Clip Speak, I would have gone through the
trouble of trying to paste a file that wasn't on the clipboard. I would
have failed and had to do more work. There is simply no way of getting
around it. This feature should be and should have been built into NVDA from
the outset. Not to do so is to allow ideology about what screen-readers
should and shouldn't do to override practical experience and common sense.
There are rare instances when screen-readers should tell blind users things
that a sighted person might not be informed of. That is the reason I've
always heard from developers about why the feature isn't in the program,
that Windows doesn't indicate to sighted users when copying and pasting take
place. Is that true? I was informed many years ago by a sighted user that
there is some sort of icon, as I recall. Whatever the case, that argument
is, in my strong opinion irrelevant.

A lot of NVDA users will never know about this add on. And if the add on
had been incorporated into program code at the outset, the bugs we are
finding now would either not have existed or would have been worked out
long, long ago.

I'm very pleased that the add on has been developed but I still very
strongly believe that this feature should be and should have been
incorporated into NVDA from the outset.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Quentin Christensen
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 6:57 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various
modes


I wonder if it's that clipspeak program? If you try disabling / quitting
that and then copying text from WordPad does it still paste the embedded
object?


On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 3:48 AM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
<bglists@...> wrote:

Well, I'm just plain awkward, quite obviously. I do not like the wordpad
in 7. Its got ribbons I think and defaults to some strange file type.
However, I find in word that if you paste in browse mode you get an embedded
object in focus mode it will work but clipspeak when active generates a word
out of memory error, which is totally spurious as it pastes in any case.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Quentin Christensen"
<quentin@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 1:04 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various
modes




You're using Windows 7, and which version of Office? Are you using the
standard WordPad that comes with Windows or are you saying you've
copied
the version out of XP?

I just tried it on Windows 10 using the build it WordPad and Office
2016
and everything worked as it should, but looks like that's a completely
different system to yours. I'll try on my WIndows 7 PC in the morning.

When Word starts, NVDA *should* be in focus mode. If you change to
Browse
mode (NVDA+spacebar) then you shouldn't be able to type as it will be
looking for letters as single letter navigation keys to jump to
elements.
You can paste text in this mode but you really need to go into focus
mode
to manipulate it.

In Word's paste special options, which you can get to with
control+alt+v,
you can paste a "Wordpad document object" (after opening the dialog,
you
need to press up arrow once then enter - at least in Office 2016). That
is
basically an object box - like a picture or a text box or a chart, in
your
document. Visually it looks like whatever text you copied out of
WordPad,
and when you activate or edit it, a Wordpad window opens with the text
inside.

To edit / activate it, you can double click it with the mouse, There
doesn't seem to be a simple, equivalent keyboard shortcut that I can
find,
but if you open the context menu, you can select "Wordpad document
object",
then edit.



On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 7:31 PM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
<
bglists@...> wrote:


OK, we have an rtf document in Wordpad
We have a blank Microsoft word. When Word opens the mode is
apparently
normally in brose, but you can type into the file this way.
However say you grab some text from Wordpad and attempt to paste it
into
word. It does not work as expected, you end up with an embedded object
in
the file.
However if you switch word to focus mode, you can paste it in as
normal.
Is this expected or a bug?

Note here that since I have clipspeak involved, when I try to paste
in
focus mode I get the out of memory warning which is bogus and can be
ignored due to who knows what.
I'd be particularly interested in people with different versions of
operating systems wordpad and word, as I tend to use the xp wordpad in
7
and an older style ie normal menus, version of word. Everything else
seems
fine. I just need to remember to switch modes. I'm just wondering what
the
embedded object pasted actually is?
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.







--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now
available:
http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Ph +61 7 3149 3306
www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess













--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available:
http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/


Ph +61 7 3149 3306
www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess


--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration is:
imam hosein is the beacon of light and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
al-islam.org












--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/


Ph +61 7 3149 3306
www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess










--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/


Ph +61 7 3149 3306
www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess










--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/


Ph +61 7 3149 3306
www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess


Re: RSS feed for NVDA blog?

 

thanks! I have the in process RSS feed but I also would like, well, all updates, the everything RSS feed if you will, the one that includes in process and NVDA releases and annnouncesments like the jamie teh one.


Re: Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

Rui Fontes
 

I agree... Now a days I almost don't use NVDA+F7...

I prefere to use the quick keys navigation or the find command...

Rui


-----Mensagem Original-----
De: Gene
Data: 17 de agosto de 2017 13:16
Para: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Assunto: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes


The argument about a links list is, from my years of experience, not valid. I can get around a web page just as efficiently, perhaps more so, without using the links list. And the links list is not suitable for working with unfamiliar changes. It introduces a completely artificial interface and, in my opinion presents no advantages while discouraging use of such features as the find command.

It is just as efficient to find a link to use the find command and type a short bit of a link. If I am on a newspaper site, I can find the editorial link if there is one by that name by using search and typing edito as the search string.

the same with example after example. Usually, you don't have to type more than the first four letters of a word you are searching for and if it isn't a very common word expected to be repeated five or ten or twenty times on a page, you will get good results.

It is much more efficient to move to the beginning of articles on a certain site I use to use the move to heading level 6 command and not use the links list, which must first be changed to a headings list.

On an unfamiliar page, it is an invitation to confusion to use the links list. What if you are moving through links by first letter navigation because you are looking for a listen live link. What if the link is written click here to listen live. You'll never find it by typing l.
If, however, you search for the worde listen, you will find the link. I believe, very strongly, that the links list should not be taught until students have shown real mastery of means of navigation that deal with the real structure being worked with.

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Quentin Christensen
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 3:23 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

Hi Gene,

Thanks for all that info! I don't have a problem with someone coming out and saying where NVDA has deficiencies (ideally, do it here where it is among the community, or by e-mail to us, where those with a direct interest in NVDA can discuss it civilly, rather than in an external public forum, preferably).

It's certainly true that when a feature is requested, one of the questions to be answered is "what information do sighted users receive visually?" Whatever the answer is, doesn't necessarily mean the feature is not worthwhile or warranted. I would argue that, where possible and efficient, it's preferable to perform the same tasks as sighted users, or using standard keystrokes rather than reinventing the wheel. A good example is accessing the system tray. Some other screen readers have a command to present the contents of the system tray in a new window, NVDA does not. The reason we don't, is that the contents of the system tray are already perfectly accessible with the WINDOWS+B command. The advantage of a dedicated window is that you guarantee you have all the icons there, where depending on your setup, using WINDOWS+B you may need to move to the "overflow" area, or else know how to set the option to always show all icons.

There was a question in that issue thread you posted, about well, why does NVDA have an elements list dialog? That's a good example where yes you could get around a web page with tab and / or the arrow keys, but it wouldn't be efficient, and it would make accessing the web very burdensome. In addition, sighted users can jump directly to parts of the page using the mouse - either by clicking on a form field such as an edit box, or by scrolling the page down in which case their eyes instantly jump to prominent features such as headings. Back to the system tray, the sighted user will likely use the mouse rather than WINOWS+B, but the result is the same and for similar effort - the focus moves to the system tray, where they can left or right click (enter or applications key) on an icon to access its features.

Back to the specific question in this thread, which is announcing when text has been copied, cut or pasted. The last conversation I had on the issue was, as I said before, that the way I believed tools such as clipspeak do it, was not truly by knowing that something has been copied, but by evaluating where the focus was, and what was selected as to whether something was likely to have been copied. That may in virtually all situations, and if so, there may be a question of "is that good enough"?

If you believe things have progressed or you can bring a new argument in favour, I'd encourage you to create a new GitHub issue.

Personally, I think since NVDA has the ability to read the clipboard contents, then announcing when things are copied or pasted is a natural enough progression, as long as it can be done accurately and without undue overhead.

I don't take anything you've written as being an attack on anyone or disrespectful. Indeed, it's healthy to have these discussions. Yes, the developers do get the final say on what goes into core, so you need to convince them to add or change features, but unlike other screen readers, even if they say they won't add it, there is still ready access for someone with the skills to submit the code themselves (often, Mick, Jamie and Reef might not be against an idea, but not be able to prioritise it high enough to work on themselves immediately) or create an add-on.

Regards

Quentin.


On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 4:26 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

Here is the discussion I told you about where including a read clipboard contents command is debated.
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/193
As I said, it was like pulling teeth to get this feature included. I didn't read the entire discussion and I don't remember if anything was decided at that time. but again the assertion is made, that is incorrect based on my years of experience, that when something is copied or pasted to or from the clipboard, that whether the events occurred or not can't be accurately determined. I've already addressed this in my previous message. but with this sort of rigid ideology, is it any wonder that this false assertion wasn't tested an evaluated and that no effort has been made to add copy and paste announcements to NVDA? And in complete contradiction to this rigid ideology, why is there a links list in Browse Mode? Why can this be altered to move by headings and other structures? No sighted person has a links list or any other such structure. So not only is this ideology rigid and in some cases obstructive, it isn't consistently applied.

I am not in any way expressing a lack of appreciation for all of the excellent work done by NVDA developers and the time and effort it took. but I am very frustrated when I see a feature that blind people have asked for for more than five years being shown no interest because ideology dictates that it shouldn't be considered. Also, if people feel that they should pull their punches when discussing deficiencies in NVDA because they think that gratitude should cause them not to discuss them or do so meekly and mildly, they are not doing anyone any service.

Gene
From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 1:08 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

This message is rather long but that's because to explain my position takes time and space. I have gone to the trouble because this has been an issue of frustration to me for years.

I may be wrong when I thought that the main reason was that the developers didn't want NvDA to give information sighted users don't have. But the reason given, as far back as about 2009 was incorrect based on all my years of experience with JAWS. I didn't use System Access long enough to make such a statement but I did use it enough to say that I never saw an inaccurate report in that screen-reader. I tested both screen-readers by not having anything selected and using the copy and paste commands. In those tests, neither screen-reader reported any action. the entire premise given in about 2009 is incorrect. I shall provide a link to the brief discussion I found. Perhaps I can find more discussion because this is such a recurring request over the years. As I recall, Window-eyes at least for a time, did use a key label to indicate copy and paste which would have been inaccurate if nothing happened. It is the only popular screen-reader in america that did this. I don't know what Dolphin (spelling) did. but I do know that in my roughly twelve years of using JAWS, I never once got a false report and in the times I used System Access, I didn't get a false report either. I haven't received a false report using the NVDA add on for about two weeks either and I was alerted that my attempt to copy a file to the clipboard had failed, which saved me time and trouble.

I don't have to technical knowledge to assess if the developer of the add on is correct in asserting that errors may occur when using his add on. I can say with confidence that this feature can be accurate, based on twelve years' experience with JAWS.

Here is the link to the discussion:
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/75

Aside from my previous objections, note the following quote:
This is an unreasonable expectation that can't, literally can't, be complied with. When copying text to the clipboard, the speak clipboard feature can verify that it has been copied. But when copying files or folders, there is no way to check except to paste them where desired, only to find that nothing was pasted because nothing was copied or the the wrong files and folders from a previous copy to the clipboard were pasted in the wrong. place.

Of course, it is desirable that users become confident and competent computer users. but many times, I have properly issued the copy command and I know I issued it correctly. I then tried to paste what I had copied to find that I had copied nothing. This didn't just happen once or twice but many times over a period of time when copying text or files and folders.

It is also much more efficient to hear a simple copied or copied to clipboard when copying text than to have to issue the speak clipboard contents command, listen for a moment to make sure that the material was copied, then continue with what I was doing. And in the case of copying large amounts of material, it isn't read. You are told how many characters have been copied. Let's say you copy 23,374 characters to the clipboard, then listen to the announcement of how many characters you copy by issuing the speak clipboard contents command. You then paste it where you want it. Then you copy other text to the clipboard, or attempt to. Is it reasonable that the user should remember the number of characters he copied the last time so that he can compare that number with the number he heard announced after copying the new material? ans suppose the number is of similar or rather similar size. Let's say I copy 23,374 the first time. Let's say that the second time, I hear 23,265. Is it really reasonable that someone, while writing something like a research paper, be expected to remember such numbers whether they are similar or not?
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Quentin Christensen
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 11:44 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

Thanks Gene,

I hadn't specifically looked into the way other screen readers handled it. The notes for ClipSpeak say: "In order to prevent announcement in inappropriate situations, Clipspeak performs checks on the control and the clipboard in order to make an informed decision as to whether such an announcement is necessary. Because of this, Clipspeak's announcements may be inaccurate."


The point is that add-ons like these react to the keystroke, check the environment and whether the command (copy, paste etc) is theoretically possible, and then gives the report. It is NOT confirmation that such an action has taken place, which is why we are reluctant to add it to core. If we could be sure of that, I'd be all for adding it to core. The argument about sighted users not having a visual indicator actually isn't 100% correct. There is nothing on screen to say text was copied or pasted, however if you have text selected and you cut it, the text disappears visually. If you paste text, then text suddenly appears in your document (or wherever).


In the meantime, the clipspeak add-on works for the most part I believe. Just to be clear, I was never having a go at those who use the add-on, my suggestion to disable it was simply to take eliminate one possible variable when investigating the original problem.


Regards


Quentin.


On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 2:27 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

That isn't correct. I wrote about this a year or two ago when the topic came up for discussion one of the times that it did. I tested JAWS and it knows when information is copied, as does System Access, which I also tested. I don't remember if I tested Window-eyes and, clearly, clip speak does as well. If it didn't, I wouldn't see a no change message when no change has occurred. Also, it would be a needless duplication of the fake clipboard announcement add on that has been available for years.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Quentin Christensen
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 11:17 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

The reason why "cut", "copy", "paste" etc aren't always announced is simply that just because that is the common use for control+x, control+c and control+v respectively, we can't always tell whether anything was actually cut, copied or pasted. To our knowledge, the way other screen readers which do announce this do it, is the same way that clip speak does - they announce it in most places because that is what usually happens, but it is possible there was an error or something else which prevented it, in which case telling the user text was copied is misleading. There is also the "speak command keys" either via the keyboard preferences (NVDA+control+k) or directly with NVDA+4. Note that NVDA does announce when text is copied in certain situations, particularly when using the review cursor where it was NVDA itself that copied the text.




On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 2:09 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

I use a very old version most of the time because I like the way review modes are offered in the interface as opposed to the newer versions. It isn't an important diffference but since this version, one of the 13 versions, meets my needs and I prefer that part of the interface, I keep using it.

I don't know what kind of problems you are having specifically and whether I might have any suggestions.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: nasrin khaksar
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 9:50 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

hi gene.
i again forgot which version of nvda do you use?
i yesterday tested 2012.2 version of nvda and realized that nvda has
many inconsistency using farsi language and i did not see any of these
problems in flat review.
whats the solution for me?
thanks so much and God bless you!

On 8/17/17, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
I'm not sure why this is, but based on my experience and on a message or two
from others, at times, Clip Speak causes odd things to happen. It works
well on my machine in general but when I use Freemake video converter, Clip
Speak doesn't allow me to paste a youtube address into the address field. I
assume that disabling it would stop the problem but the version of NVDA I
use is too old to have disable available. So I run a version of NVDA
without Clip Speak installed and the problem disappears.

I consider it well worth that slight inconvenience to get real time and
accurate feed back about copying and pasting. Once I was copying a file, as
I recall, and Clip Speak told me that there had been no change. I don't
recall what I did after that but I got it to copy by fooling around in some
way. Maybe I just opened and closed My Computer and went back to the files
list. If I hadn't been using Clip Speak, I would have gone through the
trouble of trying to paste a file that wasn't on the clipboard. I would
have failed and had to do more work. There is simply no way of getting
around it. This feature should be and should have been built into NVDA from
the outset. Not to do so is to allow ideology about what screen-readers
should and shouldn't do to override practical experience and common sense.
There are rare instances when screen-readers should tell blind users things
that a sighted person might not be informed of. That is the reason I've
always heard from developers about why the feature isn't in the program,
that Windows doesn't indicate to sighted users when copying and pasting take
place. Is that true? I was informed many years ago by a sighted user that
there is some sort of icon, as I recall. Whatever the case, that argument
is, in my strong opinion irrelevant.

A lot of NVDA users will never know about this add on. And if the add on
had been incorporated into program code at the outset, the bugs we are
finding now would either not have existed or would have been worked out
long, long ago.

I'm very pleased that the add on has been developed but I still very
strongly believe that this feature should be and should have been
incorporated into NVDA from the outset.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Quentin Christensen
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 6:57 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various
modes


I wonder if it's that clipspeak program? If you try disabling / quitting
that and then copying text from WordPad does it still paste the embedded
object?


On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 3:48 AM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
<bglists@...> wrote:

Well, I'm just plain awkward, quite obviously. I do not like the wordpad
in 7. Its got ribbons I think and defaults to some strange file type.
However, I find in word that if you paste in browse mode you get an embedded
object in focus mode it will work but clipspeak when active generates a word
out of memory error, which is totally spurious as it pastes in any case.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Quentin Christensen"
<quentin@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 1:04 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various
modes




You're using Windows 7, and which version of Office? Are you using the
standard WordPad that comes with Windows or are you saying you've
copied
the version out of XP?

I just tried it on Windows 10 using the build it WordPad and Office
2016
and everything worked as it should, but looks like that's a completely
different system to yours. I'll try on my WIndows 7 PC in the morning.

When Word starts, NVDA *should* be in focus mode. If you change to
Browse
mode (NVDA+spacebar) then you shouldn't be able to type as it will be
looking for letters as single letter navigation keys to jump to
elements.
You can paste text in this mode but you really need to go into focus
mode
to manipulate it.

In Word's paste special options, which you can get to with
control+alt+v,
you can paste a "Wordpad document object" (after opening the dialog,
you
need to press up arrow once then enter - at least in Office 2016). That
is
basically an object box - like a picture or a text box or a chart, in
your
document. Visually it looks like whatever text you copied out of
WordPad,
and when you activate or edit it, a Wordpad window opens with the text
inside.

To edit / activate it, you can double click it with the mouse, There
doesn't seem to be a simple, equivalent keyboard shortcut that I can
find,
but if you open the context menu, you can select "Wordpad document
object",
then edit.



On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 7:31 PM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
<
bglists@...> wrote:


OK, we have an rtf document in Wordpad
We have a blank Microsoft word. When Word opens the mode is
apparently
normally in brose, but you can type into the file this way.
However say you grab some text from Wordpad and attempt to paste it
into
word. It does not work as expected, you end up with an embedded object
in
the file.
However if you switch word to focus mode, you can paste it in as
normal.
Is this expected or a bug?

Note here that since I have clipspeak involved, when I try to paste
in
focus mode I get the out of memory warning which is bogus and can be
ignored due to who knows what.
I'd be particularly interested in people with different versions of
operating systems wordpad and word, as I tend to use the xp wordpad in
7
and an older style ie normal menus, version of word. Everything else
seems
fine. I just need to remember to switch modes. I'm just wondering what
the
embedded object pasted actually is?
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.







--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now
available:
http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Ph +61 7 3149 3306
www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess













--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available:
http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/


Ph +61 7 3149 3306
www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess


--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration is:
imam hosein is the beacon of light and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
al-islam.org












--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/


Ph +61 7 3149 3306
www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess










--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/


Ph +61 7 3149 3306
www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess










--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/


Ph +61 7 3149 3306
www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess


Re: Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

Quentin Christensen
 

Hi Gene,

Just on your point about the system tray commands needing to be taught, I agree that people should know them, however exactly where to cover them is the issue.  They are not NVDA commands, therefore are not suitable to be put in the NVDA User Guide.  They do get a mention in the Basic Training for NVDA module since that does walk the user through learning how to use the computer as a whole with NVDA.

Are you sure there is a difference between pressing spacebar and pressing ENTER on an icon?  I have never noticed one?  A mouse user would normally single click on an icon to activate it.  I don't recall any instance where you need to double click on a system tray icon.  It's mostly the desktop icons you need to double click to activate.




On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 10:02 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
This message is long but those interested in the system tray question may wish to read it.  Also, commands are given for using the system tray directly that most NVDA users don't know. 
 
The system tray isn't perfectly accessible directly.  At least that used to be the case.  I don't know if users would still report problems if surveyed.  I've seen instances where just using the system tray directly doesn't work properly and using the dialog does.  Until there are no such instances, even though they are rare, the argument of equal accessibility is not valid. 
 
I don't remember the specific one or two instances I saw quite some time ago but I did see them.  In addition, rarely, something is such an expected feature and so completely incorporated into screen-readers in general, that it amounts to stubborn ideology not to include it.  the system tray dialog is an example, perhaps almost the only example I know of.  Where I live the street Goethe is pronounced Go Thee.  This is incorrect according to German pronunciation and the playwright's name should be pronounced gurta, as an approximation.  But even radio stations here that are extremely demanding about proper pronunciation pronounce it Go thee when giving addresses or discussing the street.  There are just certain times when something is so entrenched that you just do it. 
 
The system tray dialog wasn't originally adopted by screen-reader developers as a means of discouraging use of an existing Windows structure.  When first adopted during Windows 98, the system tray was completely inaccessible.  Microsoft later made it accessible but by that time, the dialog had become very entrenched and it was continued. If we were starting over and the system tray was accessible from the outset, a good argument could be made for direct access and no dialog.  It can't be made now and the dialog should be a part of NVDA, not an attachment. 
 
Also, using the system tray is not, unless the manual has changed,  properly documented.  I've looked at this off and on over the years to see if the manual has changed and it never has.  I haven't checked recently.  Using the system tray directly is mentioned but the necessary commands are not given nor is there a special section, linked to as a section, that discusses this.  Since very few blind people will know the necessary commands, a problem is created for them with no solution given.
 
Unless the following commands are given, the discussion of using the system tray in the manual or in any tutorials is almost useless.
 
Enter is double left click.
Space bar is single left click.
the context menu key is right single click.
You can move through the system tray using single letter navigation or by left and right arrowing through the items. 
Windows key b is the short cut to move to the system tray. 
All this is necessary to be explained in a section specifically dedicated to working directly with the system tray.
 
Also, there was a problem in Windows 7 which I don't know if it exists in Windows 8 or 10 but if it does, it also belies the system tray works perfectly directly argument in those versions of Windows.  It certainly doesn't work perfectly in this respect in Windows 7.
In Windows 7, when you start a new Windows session and you are arrowing through the system tray, when you get to the connections are available WIFI icon, something is opened just by moving to it which shouldn't be opened.  I don't recall now just what it is but it may be a menu.  As I recall, if you close the menu, it doesn't open automatically again for the rest of the Windows session but that is not what I would call a compelling behavior that encourages blind people to use the system tray directly.
 
A general standard for when to make and not make changes and provide extra features is fine and I believe that adding features should be considered with care.  But no ideological position addresses all situations correctly.
 
While NVDA generally follows good guidelines in my opinion on such matters, the rare occasions when it doesn't, may cause unnecessary problems for a lot of users and present little or no benefits in not adopting something.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 3:23 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

Hi Gene,

Thanks for all that info!  I don't have a problem with someone coming out and saying where NVDA has deficiencies (ideally, do it here where it is among the community, or by e-mail to us, where those with a direct interest in NVDA can discuss it civilly, rather than in an external public forum, preferably).

It's certainly true that when a feature is requested, one of the questions to be answered is "what information do sighted users receive visually?"  Whatever the answer is, doesn't necessarily mean the feature is not worthwhile or warranted.  I would argue that, where possible and efficient, it's preferable to perform the same tasks as sighted users, or using standard keystrokes rather than reinventing the wheel.  A good example is accessing the system tray.  Some other screen readers have a command to present the contents of the system tray in a new window, NVDA does not.  The reason we don't, is that the contents of the system tray are already perfectly accessible with the WINDOWS+B command.  The advantage of a dedicated window is that you guarantee you have all the icons there, where depending on your setup, using WINDOWS+B you may need to move to the "overflow" area, or else know how to set the option to always show all icons.

There was a question in that issue thread you posted, about well, why does NVDA have an elements list dialog?  That's a good example where yes you could get around a web page with tab and / or the arrow keys, but it wouldn't be efficient, and it would make accessing the web very burdensome.  In addition, sighted users can jump directly to parts of the page using the mouse - either by clicking on a form field such as an edit box, or by scrolling the page down in which case their eyes instantly jump to prominent features such as headings.  Back to the system tray, the sighted user will likely use the mouse rather than WINOWS+B, but the result is the same and for similar effort - the focus moves to the system tray, where they can left or right click (enter or applications key) on an icon to access its features.

Back to the specific question in this thread, which is announcing when text has been copied, cut or pasted.  The last conversation I had on the issue was, as I said before, that the way I believed tools such as clipspeak do it, was not truly by knowing that something has been copied, but by evaluating where the focus was, and what was selected as to whether something was likely to have been copied.  That may in virtually all situations, and if so, there may be a question of "is that good enough"?

If you believe things have progressed or you can bring a new argument in favour, I'd encourage you to create a new GitHub issue.

Personally, I think since NVDA has the ability to read the clipboard contents, then announcing when things are copied or pasted is a natural enough progression, as long as it can be done accurately and without undue overhead.

I don't take anything you've written as being an attack on anyone or disrespectful.  Indeed, it's healthy to have these discussions.  Yes, the developers do get the final say on what goes into core, so you need to convince them to add or change features, but unlike other screen readers, even if they say they won't add it, there is still ready access for someone with the skills to submit the code themselves (often, Mick, Jamie and Reef might not be against an idea, but not be able to prioritise it high enough to work on themselves immediately) or create an add-on.

Regards

Quentin.

On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 4:26 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
Here is the discussion I told you about where including a read clipboard contents command is debated. 
As I said, it was like pulling teeth to get this feature included.  I didn't read the entire discussion and I don't remember if anything was decided at that time.  but again the assertion is made, that is incorrect based on my years of experience, that when something is copied or pasted to or from the clipboard, that whether the events occurred or not can't be accurately determined.  I've already addressed this in my previous message.  but with this sort of rigid ideology, is it any wonder that this false assertion wasn't tested an evaluated and that no effort has been made to add copy and paste announcements to NVDA?  And in complete contradiction to this rigid ideology, why is there a links list in Browse Mode?  Why can this be altered to move by headings and other structures?  No sighted person has a links list or any other such structure.  So not only is this ideology rigid and in some cases obstructive, it isn't consistently applied. 
 
I am not in any way expressing a lack of appreciation for all of the excellent work done by NVDA developers and the time and effort it took.  but I am very frustrated when I see a feature that blind people have asked for for more than five years being shown no interest because ideology dictates that it shouldn't be considered.  Also, if people feel that they should pull their punches when discussing deficiencies in NVDA because they think that gratitude should cause them not to discuss them or do so meekly and mildly, they are not doing anyone any service. 
 
Gene
From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 1:08 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

This message is rather long but that's because to explain my position takes time and space.  I have gone to the trouble because this has been an issue of frustration to me for years. 
 
I may be wrong when I thought that the main reason was that the developers didn't want NvDA to give information sighted users don't have.  But the reason given, as far back as about 2009 was incorrect based on all my years of experience with JAWS.  I didn't use System Access long enough to make such a statement but I did use it enough to say that I never saw an inaccurate report in that screen-reader.  I tested both screen-readers by not having anything selected and using the copy and paste commands.  In those tests, neither screen-reader reported any action.  the entire premise given in about 2009 is incorrect.  I shall provide a link to the brief discussion I found.  Perhaps I can find more discussion because this is such a recurring request over the years.  As I recall, Window-eyes at least for a time, did use a key label to indicate copy and paste which would have been inaccurate if nothing happened.  It is the only popular screen-reader in america that did this.  I don't know what Dolphin (spelling) did.  but I do know that in my roughly twelve years of using JAWS, I never once got a false report and in the times I used System Access, I didn't get a false report either.  I haven't received a false report using the NVDA add on for about two weeks either and I was alerted that my attempt to copy a file to the clipboard had failed, which saved me time and trouble. 
 
I don't have to technical knowledge to assess if the developer of the add on is correct in asserting that errors may occur when using his add on.  I can say with confidence that this feature can be accurate, based on twelve years' experience with JAWS. 
 
Here is the link to the discussion:
 
Aside from my previous objections, note the following quote:
This is an unreasonable expectation that can't, literally can't, be complied with.  When copying text to the clipboard, the speak clipboard feature can verify that it has been copied.  But when copying files or folders, there is no way to check except to paste them where desired, only to find that nothing was pasted because nothing was copied or the the wrong files and folders from a previous copy to the clipboard were pasted in the wrong. place. 
 
Of course, it is desirable that users become confident and competent computer users.  but many times, I have properly issued the copy command and I know I issued it correctly.  I then tried to paste what I had copied to find that I had copied nothing.  This didn't just happen once or twice but many times over a period of time when copying text or files and folders.
 
It is also much more efficient to hear a simple copied or copied to clipboard when copying text than to have to issue the speak clipboard contents command, listen for a moment to make sure that the material was copied, then continue with what I was doing.  And in the case of copying large amounts of material, it isn't read.  You are told how many characters have been copied.  Let's say you copy 23,374 characters to the clipboard, then listen to the announcement of how many characters you copy by issuing the speak clipboard contents command.  You then paste it where you want it.  Then you copy other text to the clipboard, or attempt to.  Is it reasonable that the user should remember the number of characters he copied the last time so that he can compare that number with the number he heard announced after copying the new material?  ans suppose the number is of similar or rather similar size. Let's say I copy 23,374 the first time.  Let's say that the second time, I hear 23,265.  Is it really reasonable that someone, while writing something like a research paper, be expected to remember such numbers whether they are similar or not?   
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 11:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

Thanks Gene,

I hadn't specifically looked into the way other screen readers handled it.  The notes for ClipSpeak say: "In order to prevent announcement in inappropriate situations, Clipspeak performs checks on the control and the clipboard in order to make an informed decision as to whether such an announcement is necessary. Because of this, Clipspeak's announcements may be inaccurate."

The point is that add-ons like these react to the keystroke, check the environment and whether the command (copy, paste etc) is theoretically possible, and then gives the report.  It is NOT confirmation that such an action has taken place, which is why we are reluctant to add it to core.  If we could be sure of that, I'd be all for adding it to core.  The argument about sighted users not having a visual indicator actually isn't 100% correct.  There is nothing on screen to say text was copied or pasted, however if you have text selected and you cut it, the text disappears visually.  If you paste text, then text suddenly appears in your document (or wherever).

In the meantime, the clipspeak add-on works for the most part I believe.  Just to be clear, I was never having a go at those who use the add-on, my suggestion to disable it was simply to take eliminate one possible variable when investigating the original problem.

Regards

Quentin.

On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 2:27 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
That isn't correct.  I wrote about this a year or two ago when the topic came up for discussion one of the times that it did.  I tested JAWS and it knows when information is copied, as does System Access, which I also tested.  I don't remember if I tested Window-eyes and, clearly, clip speak does as well.  If it didn't, I wouldn't see a no change message when no change has occurred.  Also, it would be a needless duplication of the fake clipboard announcement add on that has been available for years. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 11:17 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

The reason why "cut", "copy", "paste" etc aren't always announced is simply that just because that is the common use for control+x, control+c and control+v respectively, we can't always tell whether anything was actually cut, copied or pasted.  To our knowledge, the way other screen readers which do announce this do it, is the same way that clip speak does - they announce it in most places because that is what usually happens, but it is possible there was an error or something else which prevented it, in which case telling the user text was copied is misleading.  There is also the "speak command keys" either via the keyboard preferences (NVDA+control+k) or directly with NVDA+4.  Note that NVDA does announce when text is copied in certain situations, particularly when using the review cursor where it was NVDA itself that copied the text.



On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 2:09 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
I use a very old version most of the time because I like the way review modes are offered in the interface as opposed to the newer versions.  It isn't an important diffference but since this version, one of the 13 versions, meets my needs and I prefer that part of the interface, I keep using it. 
 
I don't know what kind of problems you are having specifically and whether I might have any suggestions.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 9:50 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

hi gene.
i again forgot which version of nvda do you use?
i yesterday tested 2012.2 version of nvda and realized that nvda has
many inconsistency using farsi language and i did not see any of these
problems in flat review.
whats the solution for me?
thanks so much and God bless you!

On 8/17/17, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
> I'm not sure why this is, but based on my experience and on a message or two
> from others, at times, Clip Speak causes odd things to happen.  It works
> well on my machine in general but when I use Freemake video converter, Clip
> Speak doesn't allow me to paste a youtube address into the address field.  I
> assume that disabling it would stop the problem but the version of NVDA I
> use is too old to have disable available.  So I run a version of NVDA
> without Clip Speak installed and the problem disappears.
>
> I consider it well worth that slight inconvenience to get real time and
> accurate feed back about copying and pasting.  Once I was copying a file, as
> I recall, and Clip Speak told me that there had been no change.  I don't
> recall what I did after that but I got it to copy by fooling around in some
> way.  Maybe I just opened and closed My Computer and went back to the files
> list.  If I hadn't been using Clip Speak, I would have gone through the
> trouble of trying to paste a file that wasn't on the clipboard.  I would
> have failed and had to do more work.  There is simply no way of getting
> around it.  This feature should be and should have been built into NVDA from
> the outset.  Not to do so is to allow ideology about what screen-readers
> should and shouldn't do to override practical experience and common sense.
> There are rare instances when screen-readers should tell blind users things
> that a sighted person might not be informed of.  That is the reason I've
> always heard from developers about why the feature isn't in the program,
> that Windows doesn't indicate to sighted users when copying and pasting take
> place.  Is that true?  I was informed many years ago by a sighted user that
> there is some sort of icon, as I recall.  Whatever the case, that argument
> is, in my strong opinion irrelevant.
>
> A lot of NVDA users will never know about this add on.  And if the add on
> had been incorporated into program code at the outset, the bugs we are
> finding now would either not have existed or would have been worked out
> long, long ago.
>
> I'm very pleased that the add on has been developed but I still very
> strongly believe that this feature should be and should have been
> incorporated into NVDA from the outset.
>
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Quentin Christensen
> Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 6:57 PM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various
> modes
>
>
> I wonder if it's that clipspeak program?  If you try disabling / quitting
> that and then copying text from WordPad does it still paste the embedded
> object?
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 3:48 AM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
> <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:
>
>   Well, I'm just plain awkward, quite obviously. I do not like the wordpad
> in 7. Its got ribbons I think and defaults to some strange file type.
> However, I find in word that if you paste in browse mode you get an embedded
> object in focus mode it will work but clipspeak when active generates a word
> out of memory error, which is totally spurious as it pastes in any case.
>   Brian
>
>   bglists@...
>   Sent via blueyonder.
>   Please address personal email to:-
>   briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
>   in the display name field.
>   ----- Original Message ----- From: "Quentin Christensen"
> <quentin@...>
>   To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>   Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 1:04 PM
>   Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various
> modes
>
>
>
>
>     You're using Windows 7, and which version of Office?  Are you using the
>     standard WordPad that comes with Windows or are you saying you've
> copied
>     the version out of XP?
>
>     I just tried it on Windows 10 using the build it WordPad and Office
> 2016
>     and everything worked as it should, but looks like that's a completely
>     different system to yours.  I'll try on my WIndows 7 PC in the morning.
>
>     When Word starts, NVDA *should* be in focus mode.  If you change to
> Browse
>     mode (NVDA+spacebar) then you shouldn't be able to type as it will be
>     looking for letters as single letter navigation keys to jump to
> elements.
>     You can paste text in this mode but you really need to go into focus
> mode
>     to manipulate it.
>
>     In Word's paste special options, which you can get to with
> control+alt+v,
>     you can paste a "Wordpad document object" (after opening the dialog,
> you
>     need to press up arrow once then enter - at least in Office 2016).  That
> is
>     basically an object box - like a picture or a text box or a chart, in
> your
>     document.  Visually it looks like whatever text you copied out of
> WordPad,
>     and when you activate or edit it, a Wordpad window opens with the text
>     inside.
>
>     To edit / activate it, you can double click it with the mouse,  There
>     doesn't seem to be a simple, equivalent keyboard shortcut that I can
> find,
>     but if you open the context menu, you can select "Wordpad document
> object",
>     then edit.
>
>
>
>     On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 7:31 PM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
> <
>     bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:
>
>
>       OK, we have an rtf document in Wordpad
>       We have a blank Microsoft word. When Word opens the mode is
> apparently
>       normally in brose, but you can type into the file this way.
>       However say you grab some text from Wordpad and attempt to paste it
> into
>       word. It does not work as expected, you end up with an embedded object
> in
>       the file.
>       However if you switch word to focus mode, you can paste it in as
> normal.
>       Is this expected or a bug?
>
>       Note here that  since I have clipspeak involved, when I try to paste
> in
>       focus mode I get the out of memory warning which is bogus and can be
>       ignored due to who knows what.
>       I'd be particularly interested in people with different versions of
>       operating systems wordpad and word, as I tend to use the xp wordpad in
> 7
>       and an older style ie normal menus, version of word. Everything else
> seems
>       fine. I just need to remember to switch modes. I'm just wondering what
> the
>       embedded object pasted actually is?
>       Brian
>
>       bglists@...
>       Sent via blueyonder.
>       Please address personal email to:-
>       briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
>       in the display name field.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>     --
>     Quentin Christensen
>     Training and Support Manager
>
>     Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now
> available:
>     http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
>
>     Ph +61 7 3149 3306
>     www.nvaccess.org
>     Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
>     Twitter: @NVAccess
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Quentin Christensen
> Training and Support Manager
>
>
> Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available:
> http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
>
>
> Ph +61 7 3149 3306
> www.nvaccess.org
> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
> Twitter: @NVAccess
>
>


--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration is:
imam hosein is the beacon of light and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
al-islam.org





--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 




--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 




--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 




--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


Re: RSS feed for NVDA blog?

Quentin Christensen
 

Hi Robert,

I tucked a little mention of this in a recent in-process but it was hidden in amongst other things:

If you would like to be automatically notified of new In-Process posts, your browser should be able to detect it on the in-process page.  If you do need a direct link for a RSS application, you can point it to: https://www.nvaccess.org/category/in-process/feed/

Regards

Quentin.

On Fri, Aug 18, 2017 at 12:46 AM, Robert Kingett <kingettr@...> wrote:
Could someone tell me the RSS feed for the NVDA blog? Firefox can only detect the podcast feed, not the blog feed.






--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess