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Re: slightly ot, braille contraction confusion
Hi Listers,
Sorry, but you telling me that you don't like uefb (either) doesn't really help me here. :-)
So I'll try to ask the question a bit differently. Why does the uefb table in nvda shows different symbols/contractions than the official cheat sheet? And will that be changed or will there be an extra table? Since there's a fair chance I'll have to teach the stuff there's no chance of me getting around it in the long run. :-)
take care, Guenni
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Re: slightly ot, braille contraction confusion
UEB is rubbish.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
-----Original Message----- From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2017 10:22 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] slightly ot, braille contraction confusion Well if its any consolation some of us are not happy about UAB either, and since I do not use it on computers it matters little, but is annoying when you get some things labelled in some mix and match form of the code and wonder how we got to this confused state. Brian bglists@... Sent via blueyonder. Please address personal email to:- briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff' in the display name field. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anne Günther" <ag82lca@...> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 11:31 PM Subject: [nvda] slightly ot, braille contraction confusion Hi,
I'm from Germany. So that,s my first language' Which means I'm only semi fluent in reading english contractions. So I looked for a cheat sheet. During my search I learned that ueb is now generally adopted "everywhere". I also found a list of symbols and to my... not exactly great yoy I found out, that a fair amount is different than I learned it. But when I switched to the unified braille table in nvda it looked a lot more like what I'm used to. So what's with all that?
best wishes, Guenni
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Re: Doing Google Searches
Brian's Mail list account
Well, we are talking human nature here I think. its always easier to ask somebody who has gone further down the road than you, what is around the corner.
Google searches can of course be very misleading due to the way some web sites cheat by adding invisible pointless words so Google sees it, even when inappropriate.
Remember many people using computers early in the learning curve do not use " or: etc very well in searches either. and even if they do, still sometimes the item you want is not obvious.
Also as we have said before here, some find googles blunderbuss approach dodgy as you can, sometimes pick up some very dubious links on there that are best left unclicked.
I'd also say that most people should add ad blockers to their browsers and then many of the cluttering you encounter go away.
Until advertisers learn to make adverts not compromise access to an accessible web site this is the only way I can work.
Sad since I know the ads pay for the sites, but then I'm not the idiot designing stupid animations and scrollers and other graphical rubbish for a basically textual sites adverts.
Brian
bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andre Fisher" <fishersmails123@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 8:28 PM
Subject: [nvda] Doing Google Searches
Hi.
A quick query. Lately, I have realized that most persons subscribed to this list, rather than going to Google or a search engine of their choice, seek to ask questions here prior to doing this type of research. I’d seriously like to know why, as I find this practice to be counterproductive. Why do I say this? Because sometimes, the responses that are given are incorrect. Why don’t persons read the NVDA User Guide, for example. It is well detailed. Could persons explain this to me?
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Re: I couldn't subscribe to devlearning. [Mailer-Daemon@mailbox.supranet.net: Mail delivery failed: returning message to sender]
Brian's Mail list account
I concur.
I hate forums and try to use web stuff as little as possible because you have the double whammy of being blind, so sites not designed with no global view by the user in mind and secondly you have to then figure out if the site has an understandable logic to it to allow faster use. Sadly the groups.io fails at both in this particular case. I got the impression it was a bolt on goody, and not enough thought was put into it.
Brian
bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Vogel" <britechguy@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 9:59 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] I couldn't subscribe to devlearning. [Mailer-Daemon@...: Mail delivery failed: returning message to sender]
Travis,
I'm not going to say anything after this. But if you think the random user of this group is going to use the web interface in the first place there is ample evidence that this is contrary to fact. If they do, if you think they'll "drill down" after a search that's even less likely.
I wouldn't drill down after a group name search because subgroups should be plainly identified. They are not.
Interfaces need to be designed around what "most people" would do. You, clearly, are not most people, you work far harder than most are willing to, which is a great thing. But if interfaces were designed for folks like you well over half the world would be unable to locate a darned thing, and that's based on observations from having been in this business since the 1980s. People are generally lazy, on the whole, and a good user interface takes that into account.
--
Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1703, Build 15063 (dot level on request - it changes too often to keep in signature)
* * *The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement.* * But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another* * profound truth.*
* ~ * *Niels Bohr*
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Re: slightly ot, braille contraction confusion
Brian's Mail list account
Well if its any consolation some of us are not happy about UAB either, and since I do not use it on computers it matters little, but is annoying when you get some things labelled in some mix and match form of the code and wonder how we got to this confused state.
Brian
bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
----- Original Message ----- From: "Anne Günther" <ag82lca@...> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 11:31 PM Subject: [nvda] slightly ot, braille contraction confusion Hi,
I'm from Germany. So that,s my first language' Which means I'm only semi fluent in reading english contractions. So I looked for a cheat sheet. During my search I learned that ueb is now generally adopted "everywhere". I also found a list of symbols and to my... not exactly great yoy I found out, that a fair amount is different than I learned it. But when I switched to the unified braille table in nvda it looked a lot more like what I'm used to. So what's with all that?
best wishes, Guenni
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Re: Doing Google Searches
Brian's Mail list account
Yes there are also people who tend to have a weird effect the minute they walk anywhere near your pc. I used not to believe in this effect, but i have a friend who only needs to come in and sit near me and things start to misbehave.
Of course there are those who just do not get into the windows concept or indeed the computers concept at all and for them the whole thing is black magic and completely incomprehensibility. they will click a link merely cos its there and then wonder why they get malware.
I have never ever had to reformat a machine only I use.
It is only those who are very bad at thinking about what they are doing that seem to have problems. Of course hardware fails, power outages can corrupt discs etc, but under normal conditions things are retrievable.
Brian
bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
----- Original Message ----- From: "Shaun Everiss" <sm.everiss@...> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2017 7:15 AM Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches <sigh>
I get this with a few users I fix their systems that want me to fix a mistake they keep making.
Even with my best intentions they always seem not to take my advice.
I'd like to say to them, simply, pick up your laptop, and throw it outside your window into a drum of petrol and set that on fire then quit bugging me for all time.
I don't do this, I simply tell them that they should reformat and that a good reformat fixes everything, and if they have any issue they should reformat and quit bothering me which is the same thing.
I then give them some software and send them on their way.
I have had to do this to a person that wishes to crack software, gets viruses and stuff and treats her technology like I would treat my bike or my running shorts at the gym.
That is beat it all till it doesn't work, then fixes things and says it works.
No pride at all.
I have happily only had to do this with about 3 people in the same place mainly because they did the same thing over and over and that got on my whick.
There are just some people that shouldn't use a pc I guess.
Sucks to be them but one can only handle the same issue day to day for so long.
On 19/08/2017 6:00 p.m., Sarah k Alawami wrote:
I actually got kicked off a list for telling someone to listen to x y and z's podcast on a subject. They wanted me to write the answer down in text. Um? Huh? It was not this list, it was a different one I had ben on for about 7 years. The moderators of that list basically told me off list I was being lazy. I don't think so as at the time this podcaster did a better job then I at explaining how to do the steps the person asking the question had. If all of this what I said makes sense, that's good. Lol.
On Aug 18, 2017, at 10:00 PM, Melissa Jean <Melissa.J.Hammitt@...> wrote:
I'm not sure what other people were thinking with their responses, but I know for certain that mine was not meant to be rude in anyway. I know for me, speaking from personal experience, listing what I do to find answers was supposed to be helpful in someway. I did not really see anywhere where someone said people who don't Google first shouldn't be asking questions… Or anything along those lines. So, I don't really get this whole jump on the bandwagon and attacked people who ask the question "why don't people Google? "
Just from observing over the years it seems that the people who jump on the people asking "why don't people google? "Are worse and the people who actually to ask why people don't do it a certain way…
Melissa
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 18, 2017, at 11:35 PM, Arlene <nedster66@... <mailto:nedster66@...>> wrote:
Preach it Andy. I thought that’s what this list is for. If someone can’t find whatever it is using google. Then he she should be able to ask for any kind of help!
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>] On Behalf Of Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: August-18-17 9:16 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches
Amen, Andy. I couldn't agree more. I almost left this list because I felt that a question wasn't being answered. If a person has tried searching for the answer on google or another search engine and can't find the answer, then he should be able to ask a question. After all, isn't that what this list is about--helping one another when we get stuck or have trouble finding an answer?
Rosemarie
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>] On Behalf Of Andy
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 8:02 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches
This issue comes up from time to time, mostly on blind related lists. Interestingly, when among sighted people who have a tech question from time to time, usually if one knows the answer, they just give it. why have these lists at all if one can't feel comfortable asking a question? Now, if the same person asks questions repeatedly, and asks the same question over and over again, it may be appropriate to refer him or her to a resource, or advise that they may want to seek training, but i think that telling someone to "Google it" when they occasionally ask a question is rather harsh.
Andy
----- Original Message -----
From: Sarah k Alawami <mailto:marrie12@...>
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 4:47 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches
Most of us including myself are lazy. Ok, I'll google for something but if I just can't find the answer or the pages are 10 years old (this did happen to me a few times) I will ask on a list and point to the steps I took to troubleshoot the issue, and the steps I tool to try and figure out on my own how to do what ever it is I'm trying to do with nvda, narrator, voiceover, talkback etc.
Take care
On Aug 18, 2017, at 12:28 PM, Andre Fisher <fishersmails123@... <mailto:fishersmails123@...>> wrote:
Hi.
A quick query. Lately, I have realized that most persons subscribed to this list, rather than going to Google or a search engine of their choice, seek to ask questions here prior to doing this type of research. I’d seriously like to know why, as I find this practice to be counterproductive. Why do I say this? Because sometimes, the responses that are given are incorrect. Why don’t persons read the NVDA User Guide, for example. It is well detailed. Could persons explain this to me?
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Re: Doing Google Searches
Sarah k Alawami <marrie12@...> wrote: I actually got kicked off a list for telling someone to listen to x y and z's podcast on a subject. They wanted me to write the answer down in text. Not everybody can listen to podcats. Some of us are deaf too. This often doesn't get considered, although it really should be.
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Re: Doing Google Searches
Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>
Obviously, I was totally kidding. Never mind my
smart ass comment. I couldn't resist though, to lighten things up a bit with
humor. I'm not gonna keep it up though, I promise. I dont' wanna bomb the list
with unnecessary messages, in all seriousness.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven
Ministries
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2017 1:52
AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google
Searches
Hahahahahahahahaha.
That was a good one.
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Christopher-Mark
Gilland
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 10:37 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject:
Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches
Can someone google
for me how to Google? Oh, wait.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe
Haven Ministries
----- Original
Message -----
Sent: Saturday, August
19, 2017 1:28 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing
Google Searches
I'm not concerned
with the question mainly from the standpoint of the list. Whenever the
question comes up, it is debated, no minds are changed, and the debate fades
away. But what about how blind people use the Internet in
general? Based on what I see in the way blind people ask questions on
vvarious lists, my conclusion is that the majority of blind people don't use
the Internet to look up information much, not necessarily list questions,
but information in a wide variety of cases. Sighted people look up so
much so constantly now that there are articles commenting on how Googling
everything ruins conversations and stops the fun of debating contested
information. Aside from that, by not using Google well, blind people
don't get access to a lot of information that they could get and that
sighted people would Google without a moment's thought. For most of my
life, access to information was one of the most limiting aspects of
blindness. There was no practical way to have a dictionary, I mean a
really good dictionary nor was there any practical way of having an
encyclopedia nor all sorts of reference books. Now, I have equal
access to an enormous amount of information. Blind people, now that
such an enormous amount of information is available, are handicapping
themselves. If a blind person knows little or nothing about using the
Internet, that's one thing. But I see a lot of people whom I believe
have reasonable if not better Internet skills ask all sorts of questions
they could look up. I'm not talking mostly about technical
information. I'm leaving the question of lists out out of my
discussion. But people ask all sorts of questions sighted people would
look up such as, what is this book about, what is this movie about, what is
this product, what is this food. Of course, sighted people discuss
such questions but they also look up an enormous amount of information,
often too much or too much too quickly to enjoy a good discussion or
debate. But it appears to me that a lot of blind people look up far
too little.
----- Original
Message -----
Sent: Friday, August
18, 2017 11:16 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing
Google Searches
Amen,
Andy. I couldn't agree more. I almost left this list because I felt that a
question wasn't being answered. If a person has tried searching for the
answer on google or another search engine and can't find the answer, then he
should be able to ask a question. After all, isn't that what this list is
about--helping one another when we get stuck or have trouble finding an
answer?
Rosemarie
This issue comes up
from time to time, mostly on blind related lists. Interestingly, when among
sighted people who have a tech question from time to time, usually if one
knows the answer, they just give it. why have these lists at all if one
can't feel comfortable asking a question? Now, if the same person asks
questions repeatedly, and asks the same question over and over again, it may
be appropriate to refer him or her to a resource, or advise that they may
want to seek training, but i think that telling someone to "Google it" when
they occasionally ask a question is rather
harsh.
----- Original
Message -----
Sent: Friday, August
18, 2017 4:47 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing
Google Searches
Most of us including myself are lazy. Ok, I'll google
for something but if I just can't find the answer or the pages are 10
years old (this did happen to me a few times) I will ask on a list and
point to the steps I took to troubleshoot the issue, and the steps I tool
to try and figure out on my own how to do what ever it is I'm trying to do
with nvda, narrator, voiceover, talkback etc.
Take care
A quick
query. Lately, I have realized that most persons subscribed to this
list, rather than going to Google or a search engine of their choice,
seek to ask questions here prior to doing this type of research. I’d
seriously like to know why, as I find this practice to be
counterproductive. Why do I say this? Because sometimes, the responses
that are given are incorrect. Why don’t persons read the NVDA User
Guide, for example. It is well detailed. Could persons explain this to
me?
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Re: Doing Google Searches
<sigh>
I get this with a few users I fix their systems that want me to fix a mistake they keep making.
Even with my best intentions they always seem not to take my advice.
I'd like to say to them, simply, pick up your laptop, and throw it outside your window into a drum of petrol and set that on fire then quit bugging me for all time.
I don't do this, I simply tell them that they should reformat and that a good reformat fixes everything, and if they have any issue they should reformat and quit bothering me which is the same thing.
I then give them some software and send them on their way.
I have had to do this to a person that wishes to crack software, gets viruses and stuff and treats her technology like I would treat my bike or my running shorts at the gym.
That is beat it all till it doesn't work, then fixes things and says it works.
No pride at all.
I have happily only had to do this with about 3 people in the same place mainly because they did the same thing over and over and that got on my whick.
There are just some people that shouldn't use a pc I guess.
Sucks to be them but one can only handle the same issue day to day for so long.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
On 19/08/2017 6:00 p.m., Sarah k Alawami wrote: I actually got kicked off a list for telling someone to listen to x y and z's podcast on a subject. They wanted me to write the answer down in text. Um? Huh? It was not this list, it was a different one I had ben on for about 7 years. The moderators of that list basically told me off list I was being lazy. I don't think so as at the time this podcaster did a better job then I at explaining how to do the steps the person asking the question had. If all of this what I said makes sense, that's good. Lol.
On Aug 18, 2017, at 10:00 PM, Melissa Jean <Melissa.J.Hammitt@...> wrote:
I'm not sure what other people were thinking with their responses, but I know for certain that mine was not meant to be rude in anyway. I know for me, speaking from personal experience, listing what I do to find answers was supposed to be helpful in someway. I did not really see anywhere where someone said people who don't Google first shouldn't be asking questions… Or anything along those lines. So, I don't really get this whole jump on the bandwagon and attacked people who ask the question "why don't people Google? "
Just from observing over the years it seems that the people who jump on the people asking "why don't people google? "Are worse and the people who actually to ask why people don't do it a certain way…
Melissa
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 18, 2017, at 11:35 PM, Arlene <nedster66@... <mailto:nedster66@...>> wrote:
Preach it Andy. I thought that’s what this list is for. If someone can’t find whatever it is using google. Then he she should be able to ask for any kind of help!
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>] On Behalf Of Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: August-18-17 9:16 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches
Amen, Andy. I couldn't agree more. I almost left this list because I felt that a question wasn't being answered. If a person has tried searching for the answer on google or another search engine and can't find the answer, then he should be able to ask a question. After all, isn't that what this list is about--helping one another when we get stuck or have trouble finding an answer?
Rosemarie
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>] On Behalf Of Andy
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 8:02 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches
This issue comes up from time to time, mostly on blind related lists. Interestingly, when among sighted people who have a tech question from time to time, usually if one knows the answer, they just give it. why have these lists at all if one can't feel comfortable asking a question? Now, if the same person asks questions repeatedly, and asks the same question over and over again, it may be appropriate to refer him or her to a resource, or advise that they may want to seek training, but i think that telling someone to "Google it" when they occasionally ask a question is rather harsh.
Andy
----- Original Message -----
From: Sarah k Alawami <mailto:marrie12@...>
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 4:47 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches
Most of us including myself are lazy. Ok, I'll google for something but if I just can't find the answer or the pages are 10 years old (this did happen to me a few times) I will ask on a list and point to the steps I took to troubleshoot the issue, and the steps I tool to try and figure out on my own how to do what ever it is I'm trying to do with nvda, narrator, voiceover, talkback etc.
Take care
On Aug 18, 2017, at 12:28 PM, Andre Fisher <fishersmails123@... <mailto:fishersmails123@...>> wrote:
Hi.
A quick query. Lately, I have realized that most persons subscribed to this list, rather than going to Google or a search engine of their choice, seek to ask questions here prior to doing this type of research. I’d seriously like to know why, as I find this practice to be counterproductive. Why do I say this? Because sometimes, the responses that are given are incorrect. Why don’t persons read the NVDA User Guide, for example. It is well detailed. Could persons explain this to me?
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Re: Doing Google Searches
Sarah k Alawami
I actually got kicked off a list for telling someone to listen to x y and z's podcast on a subject. They wanted me to write the answer down in text. Um? Huh? It was not this list, it was a different one I had ben on for about 7 years. The moderators of that list basically told me off list I was being lazy. I don't think so as at the time this podcaster did a better job then I at explaining how to do the steps the person asking the question had. If all of this what I said makes sense, that's good. Lol.
I'm not sure what other people were thinking with their responses, but I know for certain that mine was not meant to be rude in anyway. I know for me, speaking from personal experience, listing what I do to find answers was supposed to be helpful in someway. I did not really see anywhere where someone said people who don't Google first shouldn't be asking questions… Or anything along those lines. So, I don't really get this whole jump on the bandwagon and attacked people who ask the question "why don't people Google? " Just from observing over the years it seems that the people who jump on the people asking "why don't people google? "Are worse and the people who actually to ask why people don't do it a certain way… Melissa Sent from my iPhone Preach it Andy. I thought that’s what this list is for. If someone can’t find whatever it is using google. Then he she should be able to ask for any kind of help! Amen, Andy. I couldn't agree more. I almost left this list because I felt that a question wasn't being answered. If a person has tried searching for the answer on google or another search engine and can't find the answer, then he should be able to ask a question. After all, isn't that what this list is about--helping one another when we get stuck or have trouble finding an answer? Rosemarie This issue comes up from time to time, mostly on blind related lists. Interestingly, when among sighted people who have a tech question from time to time, usually if one knows the answer, they just give it. why have these lists at all if one can't feel comfortable asking a question? Now, if the same person asks questions repeatedly, and asks the same question over and over again, it may be appropriate to refer him or her to a resource, or advise that they may want to seek training, but i think that telling someone to "Google it" when they occasionally ask a question is rather harsh. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 4:47 PM Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches Most of us including myself are lazy. Ok, I'll google for something but if I just can't find the answer or the pages are 10 years old (this did happen to me a few times) I will ask on a list and point to the steps I took to troubleshoot the issue, and the steps I tool to try and figure out on my own how to do what ever it is I'm trying to do with nvda, narrator, voiceover, talkback etc. Take care A quick query. Lately, I have realized that most persons subscribed to this list, rather than going to Google or a search engine of their choice, seek to ask questions here prior to doing this type of research. I’d seriously like to know why, as I find this practice to be counterproductive. Why do I say this? Because sometimes, the responses that are given are incorrect. Why don’t persons read the NVDA User Guide, for example. It is well detailed. Could persons explain this to me?
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Re: Doing Google Searches
Hahahahahahahahaha. That was a good one.
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Christopher-Mark Gilland
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 10:37 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches Can someone google for me how to Google? Oh, wait. ---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2017 1:28 AM Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches I'm not concerned with the question mainly from the standpoint of the list. Whenever the question comes up, it is debated, no minds are changed, and the debate fades away. But what about how blind people use the Internet in general? Based on what I see in the way blind people ask questions on vvarious lists, my conclusion is that the majority of blind people don't use the Internet to look up information much, not necessarily list questions, but information in a wide variety of cases. Sighted people look up so much so constantly now that there are articles commenting on how Googling everything ruins conversations and stops the fun of debating contested information. Aside from that, by not using Google well, blind people don't get access to a lot of information that they could get and that sighted people would Google without a moment's thought. For most of my life, access to information was one of the most limiting aspects of blindness. There was no practical way to have a dictionary, I mean a really good dictionary nor was there any practical way of having an encyclopedia nor all sorts of reference books. Now, I have equal access to an enormous amount of information. Blind people, now that such an enormous amount of information is available, are handicapping themselves. If a blind person knows little or nothing about using the Internet, that's one thing. But I see a lot of people whom I believe have reasonable if not better Internet skills ask all sorts of questions they could look up. I'm not talking mostly about technical information. I'm leaving the question of lists out out of my discussion. But people ask all sorts of questions sighted people would look up such as, what is this book about, what is this movie about, what is this product, what is this food. Of course, sighted people discuss such questions but they also look up an enormous amount of information, often too much or too much too quickly to enjoy a good discussion or debate. But it appears to me that a lot of blind people look up far too little. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 11:16 PM Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches Amen, Andy. I couldn't agree more. I almost left this list because I felt that a question wasn't being answered. If a person has tried searching for the answer on google or another search engine and can't find the answer, then he should be able to ask a question. After all, isn't that what this list is about--helping one another when we get stuck or have trouble finding an answer? Rosemarie This issue comes up from time to time, mostly on blind related lists. Interestingly, when among sighted people who have a tech question from time to time, usually if one knows the answer, they just give it. why have these lists at all if one can't feel comfortable asking a question? Now, if the same person asks questions repeatedly, and asks the same question over and over again, it may be appropriate to refer him or her to a resource, or advise that they may want to seek training, but i think that telling someone to "Google it" when they occasionally ask a question is rather harsh. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 4:47 PM Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches Most of us including myself are lazy. Ok, I'll google for something but if I just can't find the answer or the pages are 10 years old (this did happen to me a few times) I will ask on a list and point to the steps I took to troubleshoot the issue, and the steps I tool to try and figure out on my own how to do what ever it is I'm trying to do with nvda, narrator, voiceover, talkback etc. Take care A quick query. Lately, I have realized that most persons subscribed to this list, rather than going to Google or a search engine of their choice, seek to ask questions here prior to doing this type of research. I’d seriously like to know why, as I find this practice to be counterproductive. Why do I say this? Because sometimes, the responses that are given are incorrect. Why don’t persons read the NVDA User Guide, for example. It is well detailed. Could persons explain this to me?
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Re: Doing Google Searches
Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>
Can someone google for me how to Google? Oh,
wait.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven
Ministries
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2017 1:28
AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google
Searches
I'm not concerned with the question mainly from
the standpoint of the list. Whenever the question comes up, it is
debated, no minds are changed, and the debate fades away. But what about
how blind people use the Internet in general? Based on what I see in the
way blind people ask questions on vvarious lists, my conclusion is that the
majority of blind people don't use the Internet to look up information much,
not necessarily list questions, but information in a wide variety of
cases. Sighted people look up so much so constantly now that there are
articles commenting on how Googling everything ruins conversations and stops
the fun of debating contested information. Aside from that, by not using
Google well, blind people don't get access to a lot of information that they
could get and that sighted people would Google without a moment's
thought. For most of my life, access to information was one of the most
limiting aspects of blindness. There was no practical way to have a
dictionary, I mean a really good dictionary nor was there any practical way of
having an encyclopedia nor all sorts of reference books. Now, I have
equal access to an enormous amount of information. Blind people, now
that such an enormous amount of information is available, are handicapping
themselves. If a blind person knows little or nothing about using the
Internet, that's one thing. But I see a lot of people whom I believe
have reasonable if not better Internet skills ask all sorts of questions they
could look up. I'm not talking mostly about technical information.
I'm leaving the question of lists out out of my discussion. But people
ask all sorts of questions sighted people would look up such as, what is this
book about, what is this movie about, what is this product, what is this
food. Of course, sighted people discuss such questions but they also
look up an enormous amount of information, often too much or too much too
quickly to enjoy a good discussion or debate. But it appears to me that
a lot of blind people look up far too little.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 11:16 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches
Amen,
Andy. I couldn't agree more. I almost left this list because I felt that a
question wasn't being answered. If a person has tried searching for the answer
on google or another search engine and can't find the answer, then he should
be able to ask a question. After all, isn't that what this list is
about--helping one another when we get stuck or have trouble finding an
answer?
Rosemarie
From:
nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Andy
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 8:02 PM
To:
nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google
Searches
This issue comes up
from time to time, mostly on blind related lists. Interestingly, when among
sighted people who have a tech question from time to time, usually if one
knows the answer, they just give it. why have these lists at all if one can't
feel comfortable asking a question? Now, if the same person asks questions
repeatedly, and asks the same question over and over again, it may be
appropriate to refer him or her to a resource, or advise that they may want to
seek training, but i think that telling someone to "Google it" when they
occasionally ask a question is rather harsh.
----- Original
Message -----
Sent: Friday, August 18,
2017 4:47 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing
Google Searches
Most of us including myself are lazy. Ok, I'll google for
something but if I just can't find the answer or the pages are 10 years old
(this did happen to me a few times) I will ask on a list and point to the
steps I took to troubleshoot the issue, and the steps I tool to try and
figure out on my own how to do what ever it is I'm trying to do with nvda,
narrator, voiceover, talkback etc.
Take care
A quick query.
Lately, I have realized that most persons subscribed to this list, rather
than going to Google or a search engine of their choice, seek to ask
questions here prior to doing this type of research. I’d seriously like to
know why, as I find this practice to be counterproductive. Why do I say
this? Because sometimes, the responses that are given are incorrect. Why
don’t persons read the NVDA User Guide, for example. It is well detailed.
Could persons explain this to
me?
|
|
|
Re: Doing Google Searches
I'm not concerned with the question mainly from the
standpoint of the list. Whenever the question comes up, it is debated, no
minds are changed, and the debate fades away. But what about how blind
people use the Internet in general? Based on what I see in the way blind
people ask questions on vvarious lists, my conclusion is that the majority of
blind people don't use the Internet to look up information much, not necessarily
list questions, but information in a wide variety of cases. Sighted people
look up so much so constantly now that there are articles commenting on how
Googling everything ruins conversations and stops the fun of debating contested
information. Aside from that, by not using Google well, blind people don't
get access to a lot of information that they could get and that sighted people
would Google without a moment's thought. For most of my life, access to
information was one of the most limiting aspects of blindness. There was
no practical way to have a dictionary, I mean a really good dictionary nor was
there any practical way of having an encyclopedia nor all sorts of reference
books. Now, I have equal access to an enormous amount of
information. Blind people, now that such an enormous amount of information
is available, are handicapping themselves. If a blind person knows little
or nothing about using the Internet, that's one thing. But I see a lot of
people whom I believe have reasonable if not better Internet skills ask all
sorts of questions they could look up. I'm not talking mostly about
technical information. I'm leaving the question of lists out out of my
discussion. But people ask all sorts of questions sighted people would
look up such as, what is this book about, what is this movie about, what is this
product, what is this food. Of course, sighted people discuss such
questions but they also look up an enormous amount of information, often too
much or too much too quickly to enjoy a good discussion or debate. But it
appears to me that a lot of blind people look up far too little.
Gene
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 11:16 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches
Amen,
Andy. I couldn't agree more. I almost left this list because I felt that a
question wasn't being answered. If a person has tried searching for the answer
on google or another search engine and can't find the answer, then he should be
able to ask a question. After all, isn't that what this list is about--helping
one another when we get stuck or have trouble finding an answer?
Rosemarie
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Andy
Sent: Friday,
August 18, 2017 8:02 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re:
[nvda] Doing Google Searches
This issue comes up
from time to time, mostly on blind related lists. Interestingly, when among
sighted people who have a tech question from time to time, usually if one knows
the answer, they just give it. why have these lists at all if one can't feel
comfortable asking a question? Now, if the same person asks questions
repeatedly, and asks the same question over and over again, it may be
appropriate to refer him or her to a resource, or advise that they may want to
seek training, but i think that telling someone to "Google it" when they
occasionally ask a question is rather harsh.
----- Original
Message -----
Sent: Friday, August 18,
2017 4:47 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing
Google Searches
Most of us including myself are lazy. Ok, I'll google for
something but if I just can't find the answer or the pages are 10 years old
(this did happen to me a few times) I will ask on a list and point to the
steps I took to troubleshoot the issue, and the steps I tool to try and figure
out on my own how to do what ever it is I'm trying to do with nvda, narrator,
voiceover, talkback etc.
Take care
A quick query.
Lately, I have realized that most persons subscribed to this list, rather
than going to Google or a search engine of their choice, seek to ask
questions here prior to doing this type of research. I’d seriously like to
know why, as I find this practice to be counterproductive. Why do I say
this? Because sometimes, the responses that are given are incorrect. Why
don’t persons read the NVDA User Guide, for example. It is well detailed.
Could persons explain this to
me?
|
|
|
Re: Doing Google Searches
I'm not sure what other people were thinking with their responses, but I know for certain that mine was not meant to be rude in anyway. I know for me, speaking from personal experience, listing what I do to find answers was supposed to be helpful in someway. I did not really see anywhere where someone said people who don't Google first shouldn't be asking questions… Or anything along those lines. So, I don't really get this whole jump on the bandwagon and attacked people who ask the question "why don't people Google? " Just from observing over the years it seems that the people who jump on the people asking "why don't people google? "Are worse and the people who actually to ask why people don't do it a certain way… Melissa Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 18, 2017, at 11:35 PM, Arlene < nedster66@...> wrote: Preach it Andy. I thought that’s what this list is for. If someone can’t find whatever it is using google. Then he she should be able to ask for any kind of help! Amen, Andy. I couldn't agree more. I almost left this list because I felt that a question wasn't being answered. If a person has tried searching for the answer on google or another search engine and can't find the answer, then he should be able to ask a question. After all, isn't that what this list is about--helping one another when we get stuck or have trouble finding an answer? Rosemarie This issue comes up from time to time, mostly on blind related lists. Interestingly, when among sighted people who have a tech question from time to time, usually if one knows the answer, they just give it. why have these lists at all if one can't feel comfortable asking a question? Now, if the same person asks questions repeatedly, and asks the same question over and over again, it may be appropriate to refer him or her to a resource, or advise that they may want to seek training, but i think that telling someone to "Google it" when they occasionally ask a question is rather harsh. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 4:47 PM Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches Most of us including myself are lazy. Ok, I'll google for something but if I just can't find the answer or the pages are 10 years old (this did happen to me a few times) I will ask on a list and point to the steps I took to troubleshoot the issue, and the steps I tool to try and figure out on my own how to do what ever it is I'm trying to do with nvda, narrator, voiceover, talkback etc. Take care A quick query. Lately, I have realized that most persons subscribed to this list, rather than going to Google or a search engine of their choice, seek to ask questions here prior to doing this type of research. I’d seriously like to know why, as I find this practice to be counterproductive. Why do I say this? Because sometimes, the responses that are given are incorrect. Why don’t persons read the NVDA User Guide, for example. It is well detailed. Could persons explain this to me?
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Re: Doing Google Searches
If it is a prerequisite that one only come to this
list to ask questions as a last resort, then that should be specified in the
list description. I have a neighbor who is a tech. if I ask him a question that
is within his area of expertise, he has never asked me what other sources I
consulted before asking him. I don't know why blind persons are so hard on each
other. Every moment doesn't have to be a teachable one. Freud was quoted as
saying, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar".
Andy
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 9:35
PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google
Searches
Preach
it Andy. I thought that’s what this list is for. If someone can’t find
whatever it is using google. Then he she should be able to ask for any kind of
help!
Amen,
Andy. I couldn't agree more. I almost left this list because I felt that a
question wasn't being answered. If a person has tried searching for the answer
on google or another search engine and can't find the answer, then he should
be able to ask a question. After all, isn't that what this list is
about--helping one another when we get stuck or have trouble finding an
answer?
Rosemarie
This issue comes up
from time to time, mostly on blind related lists. Interestingly, when among
sighted people who have a tech question from time to time, usually if one
knows the answer, they just give it. why have these lists at all if one can't
feel comfortable asking a question? Now, if the same person asks questions
repeatedly, and asks the same question over and over again, it may be
appropriate to refer him or her to a resource, or advise that they may want to
seek training, but i think that telling someone to "Google it" when they
occasionally ask a question is rather harsh.
----- Original
Message -----
Sent:
Friday, August 18, 2017 4:47 PM
Subject: Re:
[nvda] Doing Google Searches
Most of us including myself are lazy.
Ok, I'll google for something but if I just can't find the answer or the
pages are 10 years old (this did happen to me a few times) I will ask on a
list and point to the steps I took to troubleshoot the issue, and the steps
I tool to try and figure out on my own how to do what ever it is I'm trying
to do with nvda, narrator, voiceover, talkback etc.
Take care
A quick
query. Lately, I have realized that most persons subscribed to this list,
rather than going to Google or a search engine of their choice, seek to
ask questions here prior to doing this type of research. I’d seriously
like to know why, as I find this practice to be counterproductive. Why do
I say this? Because sometimes, the responses that are given are incorrect.
Why don’t persons read the NVDA User Guide, for example. It is well
detailed. Could persons explain this to
me?
|
|
|
Re: Doing Google Searches
Preach it Andy. I thought that’s what this list is for. If someone can’t find whatever it is using google. Then he she should be able to ask for any kind of help!
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: August-18-17 9:16 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches Amen, Andy. I couldn't agree more. I almost left this list because I felt that a question wasn't being answered. If a person has tried searching for the answer on google or another search engine and can't find the answer, then he should be able to ask a question. After all, isn't that what this list is about--helping one another when we get stuck or have trouble finding an answer? Rosemarie This issue comes up from time to time, mostly on blind related lists. Interestingly, when among sighted people who have a tech question from time to time, usually if one knows the answer, they just give it. why have these lists at all if one can't feel comfortable asking a question? Now, if the same person asks questions repeatedly, and asks the same question over and over again, it may be appropriate to refer him or her to a resource, or advise that they may want to seek training, but i think that telling someone to "Google it" when they occasionally ask a question is rather harsh. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 4:47 PM Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches Most of us including myself are lazy. Ok, I'll google for something but if I just can't find the answer or the pages are 10 years old (this did happen to me a few times) I will ask on a list and point to the steps I took to troubleshoot the issue, and the steps I tool to try and figure out on my own how to do what ever it is I'm trying to do with nvda, narrator, voiceover, talkback etc. Take care A quick query. Lately, I have realized that most persons subscribed to this list, rather than going to Google or a search engine of their choice, seek to ask questions here prior to doing this type of research. I’d seriously like to know why, as I find this practice to be counterproductive. Why do I say this? Because sometimes, the responses that are given are incorrect. Why don’t persons read the NVDA User Guide, for example. It is well detailed. Could persons explain this to me?
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|
|
Re: Doing Google Searches
Amen, Andy. I couldn't agree more. I almost left this list because I felt that a question wasn't being answered. If a person has tried searching for the answer on google or another search engine and can't find the answer, then he should be able to ask a question. After all, isn't that what this list is about--helping one another when we get stuck or have trouble finding an answer? Rosemarie
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Andy
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 8:02 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches This issue comes up from time to time, mostly on blind related lists. Interestingly, when among sighted people who have a tech question from time to time, usually if one knows the answer, they just give it. why have these lists at all if one can't feel comfortable asking a question? Now, if the same person asks questions repeatedly, and asks the same question over and over again, it may be appropriate to refer him or her to a resource, or advise that they may want to seek training, but i think that telling someone to "Google it" when they occasionally ask a question is rather harsh. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 4:47 PM Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches Most of us including myself are lazy. Ok, I'll google for something but if I just can't find the answer or the pages are 10 years old (this did happen to me a few times) I will ask on a list and point to the steps I took to troubleshoot the issue, and the steps I tool to try and figure out on my own how to do what ever it is I'm trying to do with nvda, narrator, voiceover, talkback etc. Take care A quick query. Lately, I have realized that most persons subscribed to this list, rather than going to Google or a search engine of their choice, seek to ask questions here prior to doing this type of research. I’d seriously like to know why, as I find this practice to be counterproductive. Why do I say this? Because sometimes, the responses that are given are incorrect. Why don’t persons read the NVDA User Guide, for example. It is well detailed. Could persons explain this to me?
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Re: Doing Google Searches
Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>
1, hundred billion trillion, quad drillion!
zillion, f foggilian! no, that's not a real number, LOL! percent echo your
words, Andy! I absolutely, couldn't agree more!
OK, it's one thing if someone just keeps on asking
over and over, but come on! Otherwise, no!
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven
Ministries
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 11:02
PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google
Searches
This issue comes up from time to time, mostly on
blind related lists. Interestingly, when among sighted people who have a tech
question from time to time, usually if one knows the answer, they just give
it. why have these lists at all if one can't feel comfortable asking a
question? Now, if the same person asks questions repeatedly, and asks the same
question over and over again, it may be appropriate to refer him or her to a
resource, or advise that they may want to seek training, but i think that
telling someone to "Google it" when they occasionally ask a question is rather
harsh.
Andy
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 4:47
PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google
Searches
Most of us including myself are lazy. Ok, I'll google for
something but if I just can't find the answer or the pages are 10 years old
(this did happen to me a few times) I will ask on a list and point to the
steps I took to troubleshoot the issue, and the steps I tool to try and
figure out on my own how to do what ever it is I'm trying to do with nvda,
narrator, voiceover, talkback etc.
Take care
Hi.
A
quick query. Lately, I have realized that most persons subscribed to this
list, rather than going to Google or a search engine of their choice, seek
to ask questions here prior to doing this type of research. I’d seriously
like to know why, as I find this practice to be counterproductive. Why do
I say this? Because sometimes, the responses that are given are incorrect.
Why don’t persons read the NVDA User Guide, for example. It is well
detailed. Could persons explain this to
me?
|
|
|
Re: Doing Google Searches
This issue comes up from time to time, mostly on
blind related lists. Interestingly, when among sighted people who have a tech
question from time to time, usually if one knows the answer, they just give it.
why have these lists at all if one can't feel comfortable asking a question?
Now, if the same person asks questions repeatedly, and asks the same question
over and over again, it may be appropriate to refer him or her to a resource, or
advise that they may want to seek training, but i think that telling someone to
"Google it" when they occasionally ask a question is rather harsh.
Andy
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 4:47
PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google
Searches
Most of us including myself are lazy. Ok, I'll google for
something but if I just can't find the answer or the pages are 10 years old
(this did happen to me a few times) I will ask on a list and point to the
steps I took to troubleshoot the issue, and the steps I tool to try and figure
out on my own how to do what ever it is I'm trying to do with nvda, narrator,
voiceover, talkback etc.
Take care
Hi.
A
quick query. Lately, I have realized that most persons subscribed to this
list, rather than going to Google or a search engine of their choice, seek
to ask questions here prior to doing this type of research. I’d seriously
like to know why, as I find this practice to be counterproductive. Why do I
say this? Because sometimes, the responses that are given are incorrect. Why
don’t persons read the NVDA User Guide, for example. It is well detailed.
Could persons explain this to
me?
|
|
|
Re: Doing Google Searches
I do the same thing when it comes to trying to figure out something. I do all of that before I even think to bother the list. This might mean that some of my email are really long, but I'd rather have all of the information there then have nothing… That comes from years doing tech-support and customer service. You get an answer quicker if you get what all you have done first, first. Some people don't realize that if they just type in there question into the search bar and hit enter they will most likely get either the answer they're looking for or links that will lead them to the answer they are looking for. Which in the long run could be a lot faster than sending off an email to the list… Melissa Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 18, 2017, at 6:47 PM, Sarah k Alawami < marrie12@...> wrote: Most of us including myself are lazy. Ok, I'll google for something but if I just can't find the answer or the pages are 10 years old (this did happen to me a few times) I will ask on a list and point to the steps I took to troubleshoot the issue, and the steps I tool to try and figure out on my own how to do what ever it is I'm trying to do with nvda, narrator, voiceover, talkback etc.
Take care
Hi. A quick query. Lately, I have realized that most persons subscribed to this list, rather than going to Google or a search engine of their choice, seek to ask questions here prior to doing this type of research. I’d seriously like to know why, as I find this practice to be counterproductive. Why do I say this? Because sometimes, the responses that are given are incorrect. Why don’t persons read the NVDA User Guide, for example. It is well detailed. Could persons explain this to me?
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