Date   

Re: VLC and Subtitles

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Not all content has subtitles as text though does it? Many are just images.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rob" <captinlogic@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2017 12:29 PM
Subject: [nvda] VLC and Subtitles


I heard that you could get NVDA to see subtitles while playing a video in VLC. I cannot, however, find them anywhere.
Object nav only shows button after button, even when the subtitle track is enabled. Where is the line of text hiding?


Re: I couldn't subscribe to devlearning. [Mailer-Daemon@mailbox.supranet.net: Mail delivery failed: returning message to sender]

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

a couple of explanatory lines of text seems to be all that is required.
Brian.

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io" <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2017 10:26 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] I couldn't subscribe to devlearning. [Mailer-Daemon@mailbox.supranet.net: Mail delivery failed: returning message to sender]


I concur.
I hate forums and try to use web stuff as little as possible because you have the double whammy of being blind, so sites not designed with no global view by the user in mind and secondly you have to then figure out if the site has an understandable logic to it to allow faster use. Sadly the groups.io fails at both in this particular case. I got the impression it was a bolt on goody, and not enough thought was put into it.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Vogel" <britechguy@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 9:59 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] I couldn't subscribe to devlearning. [Mailer-Daemon@mailbox.supranet.net: Mail delivery failed: returning message to sender]


Travis,

I'm not going to say anything after this. But if you think the random user of this group is going to use the web interface in the first place there is ample evidence that this is contrary to fact. If they do, if you think they'll "drill down" after a search that's even less likely.

I wouldn't drill down after a group name search because subgroups should be plainly identified. They are not.

Interfaces need to be designed around what "most people" would do. You, clearly, are not most people, you work far harder than most are willing to, which is a great thing. But if interfaces were designed for folks like you well over half the world would be unable to locate a darned thing, and that's based on observations from having been in this business since the 1980s. People are generally lazy, on the whole, and a good user interface takes that into account.
--
Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1703, Build 15063 (dot level on request - it changes too often to keep in signature)

* * *The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement.* * But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another* * profound truth.*

* ~ * *Niels Bohr*



Re: kindle

 

hi.
from user guide:
8.8. Kindle for PC
NVDA supports reading and navigating books in Amazon Kindle for PC.
This functionality is only available in Kindle books designated with
"Screen Reader: Supported" which you can check on the details page for
the book.
Browse mode is used to read books. It is enabled automatically when
you open a book or focus the book area. The page will be turned
automatically as appropriate when you move the cursor or use the say
all command. You can manually turn to the next page with the pageDown
key and turn to the previous page with the pageUp key.
Single letter navigation is supported for links and graphics, but only
within the current page. Navigating by link also includes footnotes.
8.8.1. Text Selection
Kindle allows you to perform various functions on selected text,
including obtaining a dictionary definition, adding notes and
highlights, copying the text to the clipboard and searching the web.
To do this, first select text as you normally would in browse mode;
e.g. by using shift and the cursor keys. Once you have selected text,
press the applications key or shift+f10 to show the available options
for working with the selection. If you do this with no text selected,
options will be shown for the word at the cursor.
8.8.2. User Notes
You can add a note regarding a word or passage of text. To do this,
first select the relevant text and access the selection options as
described above. Then, choose Add Note.
When reading in browse mode, NVDA refers to these notes as comments.
To view, edit or delete a note:
1. Move the cursor to the text containing the note.
2. Access the options for the selection as described above.
3. Choose Edit Note.

God bless you!

On 8/20/17, Holger Fiallo <hfiallo@rcn.com> wrote:


Does anyone knows how to use kindle for pC with NVDA? Using W10 and current
NVDA.
Holger Fiallo
--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration is:
imam hosein is the beacon of light and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
al-islam.org


Re: Doing Google Searches

anthony borg
 

Hi rosemarie

Is it possible to contact you out of list as I need to ask you something please?

Kind regards

Anthony

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: 20 August 2017 06:33
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches

 

Hi, Brian,

 

The other day I was trying to do a search for a song on youtube. It was a very rare oldie I was trying to find for the music group I'm on. I couldn't find the song so I had to ask a member of the list if they had it. As far as google, I don't use the down-arrow to find search results. I use the H for headings and sometimes I can find what I'm looking for. If I go to a new site and try to find something, I don't always know what I'm looking for until I become familiar with that site. A good example of that is an oldies station I sometimes listen to. Since I'm familiar with that site, I can do the find command and look for the "listen live" link.

 

My point is this. Sometimes you can't always find something by searching no matter how hard you try. That's why we have email lists--so we can ask questions if we get stuck.

 

Rosemarie

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of brian
Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2017 2:44 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches

 

    I agree that just telling somone to just google that is very harch.  You can't always find what you are looking forand if you do you will have take a very long time down arrowing to find what you want.  The sighted can just look at their screens and see what they want but we can't.  People who tell somone on lists to just google it are the ones who are lazy they don't want to help and thats what email lists are for.  If you can't ask for help or ask a question with out getting critisized then why even have email list att and why are people even on list in the first place?   Maybe that person has lready has googled it but they could not find what they were looking for.  This even does happen to the sighted but because we are blind we are just not soposed to ask for help that seems to be a great sin in the blind community asking for help because we are soposed to be super independent.  Some people might need more training and we are all not at the same leavel of independence as others are and neither were they either.  It's often easier and faster to post a question and ask for help on an email list than it is to  just google it.  You will also get better results because the answers that you get come from other people who have found a sultion to your problem.  I am very greatful and very thankful for all of the help that I have received from people on lists and if I can help I will do so.

Brian Sackrider

 

On 8/18/2017 11:02 PM, Andy wrote:

This issue comes up from time to time, mostly on blind related lists. Interestingly, when among sighted people who have a tech question from time to time, usually if one knows the answer, they just give it. why have these lists at all if one can't feel comfortable asking a question? Now, if the same person asks questions repeatedly, and asks the same question over and over again, it may be appropriate to refer him or her to a resource, or advise that they may want to seek training, but i think that telling someone to "Google it" when they occasionally ask a question is rather harsh.

 

Andy

 

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 4:47 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches

 

Most of us including myself are lazy. Ok, I'll google for something but if I just can't find the answer or the pages are 10 years old (this did happen to me a few times) I will ask on a list and point to the steps I took to troubleshoot the issue, and the steps I tool to try and figure out on my own how to do what ever it is I'm trying to do with nvda, narrator, voiceover, talkback etc.

 

Take care

On Aug 18, 2017, at 12:28 PM, Andre Fisher <fishersmails123@...> wrote:

 

Hi.

A quick query. Lately, I have realized that most persons subscribed to this list, rather than going to Google or a search engine of their choice, seek to ask questions here prior to doing this type of research. I’d seriously like to know why, as I find this practice to be counterproductive. Why do I say this? Because sometimes, the responses that are given are incorrect. Why don’t persons read the NVDA User Guide, for example. It is well detailed. Could persons explain this to me?

 

 


Re: Doing Google Searches

Gene
 

The following message is long but for those who want to use the Internet more easily and efficiently, the information may be very useful.
 
I understand that advocating that blind people who don't use Google much would do well to use Google far more often and better isn't going to help people who are not knowledgeable about using Google or navigating web pages in general.  Thus, this long explanation which is more like a short tutorial than a typical list message.  I hope many people find it useful.
 
There are patterns that will help you find certain kinds of things very quickly on almost all sites that have that specific thing.  If you want to write to someone at a site or in connection with something offered on the site, such as to an editor at a newspaper site, if you search for the word "contact" on the home page, almost every site that expects to hear from people has a link with the word contact in it.  If you want to listen to a radio station, almost every link for that purpose on almost every radio station site has the word listen in the link. 
 
I'm not sure if there are many more than the two I've given but there are things you can guess about.  On a newspaper site, you may want to listen to the navigation links to get to know how to find things on a site.  for example, some sites may have a link that says editorials.  Some sites may have a link called opinion instead.  You may be able to save time by searching, using your screen-reader's search command for one word and, if it isn't there, the other.  I'm talking about if you are on the home page of an unfamiliar site and want to try to find a category or area that is likely to be available and you don't want to look through all the navigation links to find it.  You may have to do so on some sites, but on a lot of sites, such methods as I'm discussing may save you a lot of time. 
 
Also if you search for specific things, the pages that come up as results will be pages of sites that have information about what you are looking for.  You won't get unrelated pages like home pages.  So, for example, if I want to see editorials about the very unpopular new soda tax in the county where I live, if I do a Google search for cook county soda tax editorial, I'll see lots of results with editorials about the soda tax from many newspapers.  You don't have to down arrow through the pages.  they contain articles and move by header, skip blocks of links commands or the screen-reader search command can quickly move you to the start of the article.  If one or two such methods don't work, the other one will.  And at times, as I said before, you can skim by paragraph but that isn't usually nearly as efficient in instances such as I am discussing to find the beginning of an article.
 
I seldom use the search feature on sites themselves.  on shopping sites, I probably wood, but on general interest searches, and searches for a certain topic, I almost never use the search feature on a site.  Something a lot of people don't know is that you can much more quickly often find what you want by doing searches like this:
If you are looking for a song on Youtube, instead of going to the site and then doing a search, searching in Google for this sort of syntax, Good vibrations Beach Boys youtube will show you many youtube results unless nothing relevant or at least partly relevant is found. 
 
it is often faster to use Google because you already know the interface well and you don't have to make sure you know what a site is in terms of its exact address, go to it, find the search field and search on that site.  And I've been told that if you do what I do, at times you will find things better.  My sister complains that Spotify doesn't have a good search system and she tells me that she can find more things and find them more easily searching google as, for example, Johnny Be good, Berry, spotify
 
I hope these comments make it easier for people to navigate web sites and find relevant results. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2017 11:33 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches

Hi, Brian,

 

The other day I was trying to do a search for a song on youtube. It was a very rare oldie I was trying to find for the music group I'm on. I couldn't find the song so I had to ask a member of the list if they had it. As far as google, I don't use the down-arrow to find search results. I use the H for headings and sometimes I can find what I'm looking for. If I go to a new site and try to find something, I don't always know what I'm looking for until I become familiar with that site. A good example of that is an oldies station I sometimes listen to. Since I'm familiar with that site, I can do the find command and look for the "listen live" link.

 

My point is this. Sometimes you can't always find something by searching no matter how hard you try. That's why we have email lists--so we can ask questions if we get stuck.

 

Rosemarie

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of brian
Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2017 2:44 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches

 

    I agree that just telling somone to just google that is very harch.  You can't always find what you are looking forand if you do you will have take a very long time down arrowing to find what you want.  The sighted can just look at their screens and see what they want but we can't.  People who tell somone on lists to just google it are the ones who are lazy they don't want to help and thats what email lists are for.  If you can't ask for help or ask a question with out getting critisized then why even have email list att and why are people even on list in the first place?   Maybe that person has lready has googled it but they could not find what they were looking for.  This even does happen to the sighted but because we are blind we are just not soposed to ask for help that seems to be a great sin in the blind community asking for help because we are soposed to be super independent.  Some people might need more training and we are all not at the same leavel of independence as others are and neither were they either.  It's often easier and faster to post a question and ask for help on an email list than it is to  just google it.  You will also get better results because the answers that you get come from other people who have found a sultion to your problem.  I am very greatful and very thankful for all of the help that I have received from people on lists and if I can help I will do so.

Brian Sackrider

 

On 8/18/2017 11:02 PM, Andy wrote:

This issue comes up from time to time, mostly on blind related lists. Interestingly, when among sighted people who have a tech question from time to time, usually if one knows the answer, they just give it. why have these lists at all if one can't feel comfortable asking a question? Now, if the same person asks questions repeatedly, and asks the same question over and over again, it may be appropriate to refer him or her to a resource, or advise that they may want to seek training, but i think that telling someone to "Google it" when they occasionally ask a question is rather harsh.

 

Andy

 

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 4:47 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches

 

Most of us including myself are lazy. Ok, I'll google for something but if I just can't find the answer or the pages are 10 years old (this did happen to me a few times) I will ask on a list and point to the steps I took to troubleshoot the issue, and the steps I tool to try and figure out on my own how to do what ever it is I'm trying to do with nvda, narrator, voiceover, talkback etc.

 

Take care

On Aug 18, 2017, at 12:28 PM, Andre Fisher <fishersmails123@...> wrote:

 

Hi.

A quick query. Lately, I have realized that most persons subscribed to this list, rather than going to Google or a search engine of their choice, seek to ask questions here prior to doing this type of research. I’d seriously like to know why, as I find this practice to be counterproductive. Why do I say this? Because sometimes, the responses that are given are incorrect. Why don’t persons read the NVDA User Guide, for example. It is well detailed. Could persons explain this to me?

 

 


Re: Request for comments: an outline of a complete course on NVDA internals and code contributions

 

Hi,
HTML book: Not at the moment. My plan is to collect notes from devlearning subgroup and compile it into a book later, with wisdom and comments from developers included. At one point, I did think about writing an internals book, but that was 2014 when my knowledge of NVDA wasn't solid as today.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of nasrin khaksar
Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2017 8:20 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Request for comments: an outline of a complete course on NVDA internals and code contributions

hi joseph.
this cources are very great.
also do you provide for us html format of this book to download and have all courses in one book, one collection and one file?
God bless you!

On 8/20/17, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi everyone,



Those of you on the users list may have heard about a subgroup over
there that aims to teach people how to contribute code to NVDA. After
going over some membership intros and looking at skill sets
represented, I came up with a rough outline or a six to twelve month
course on NVDA code contributions and internals. Obviously most of the
course content will require working knowledge of Python, but for those
who lack this, I've included a one unit outline on Python.



Outline:



* Title: So you want to improve NVDA with code contributions?
* Instructor: one or more NVDA experts and developers, along with
several Python users as tutors
* Purpose: the overall purpose of this course is to equip new
developers with knowledge required to provide code contributions to
NVDA project. Topics covered include a short review of Python, running
NVDA from source code, source code layout and overall architecture,
behind the scenes tour of features and commands, as well as things
required when contributing code such as identifying, designing,
coding, debugging, testing, submitting, maintaining, and explaining
new features, changes and bug fixes.
* Goals: have a working knowledge of Python so students can use it in
NVDA and other projects; learn the overall purpose and architecture of
NVDA; have knowledge of workings of features and commands through
reading, understanding and writing source code; learn tips for
becoming successful NVDA code contributors who serves the community
and improves NVDA; develop critical problem solving and thinking
skills required in today's software engineering projects including
that of NVDA.



Course outline:



Unit 0: Review of Python

1. Python is a general-purpose programming language
2. Downloading and using Python
3. Explain variables, how to import useful modules, conditionals and
loops
4. Learn how to define functions.
5. Design classes and objects
6. Learn to interact with lists, dictionaries, sets, tuples and other
objects of interest
7. Use modules and objects provided by Python to solve various problems
8. Exercise: random walk on a treadmill
9. Expected duration: four to six months



Skills test and preview 0: come up with solutions to two other
problems via Python, write a design for an add-on, or write about how
a student would solve an NVDA issue on GitHub.



Unit 1: Basics and the big picture

1. What screen readers are and are not
2. A portrait of operations of a screen reader
3. A brief history of NVDA
4. Obtaining NVDA source code
5. Compiling NVDA's source code with dependencies
6. Running NVDA from source for the first time
7. Example of code contribution: command to restart NVDA with no
prompts
8. Expected duration: one month



Skills test and preview 1: explain in your own words how you would
teach your friend to download NVDA source code.



Unit 2: NVDA at a glance

1. Features overview
2. Source code layout
3. Overall architecture
4. Importance of objects, events, and modules
5. Extensibility through classes
6. Why accessibility API's matter
7. Exercise: what is the code responsible for announcing speech via
beeps?
8. Example of code contribution: Popping up browse mode window for some
NVDA messages
9. Expected duration: two months



Skills test and preview 2: in your own words, describe ui.message function.



Unit 3: feature and command internals 1

1. Global commands
2. Focus, caret, system cursor
3. Object navigation, properties, developer information and object
hierarchy
4. Accessibility API's
5. Review cursor and text infos
6. Keyboard, mouse, and touchscreen
7. Basics of browse mode
8. Exercise: explain how NvDA+T command works to a new user
9. Example of code contribution: indentation announcement by tones
10. Expected duration: two to three months



Skills test and preview 3: in your own words, describe either one
property of a navigator object or how a first letter navigation
command works in browse mode.



Unit 4: Feature and command internals 2

1. App modules, global plugins and add-ons
2. Speech, braille, and tones
3. Synthesizers and braille displays
4. Math presentation layer and content recognition framework
5. NVDA dialogs, configuration management, and managing add-ons
6. Exercise: track down bugs in speech synthesizers
7. Example of code contribution: Unicode braille output
8. Expected duration: two months



Skills test and preview 4: in your own words, define what a speech
synthesizer driver is.



Unit 5: Code contributions

1. Identifying issues and suggestions
2. Designing a problem and its solution(s)
3. Coding a solution
4. Debugging and testing solutions
5. Effective use of log viewer and Python Console
6. Submitting, maintaining, and explaining a feature, a change, or a
bug fix
7. Exercise: not all warnings from the log are fatal
8. Example of code contribution: tab completion in Python Console
9. Expected duration: two to three months



Skills test and preview 5: write a solution for a minor issue on
GitHub or a small add-on that uses any concept from previous units.



Unit 6: Beyond code contributions

1. Translations
2. Documentation
3. Keep in touch with users and others in the community
4. Researching new ideas alone or in groups
5. Working on collaborative projects
6. Apply skills from NVDA to other projects
7. Exercise: write an article explaining inner workings of a community
add-on
8. Example of code contribution: Liblouis project
9. Expected duration: one month



Unit 7 (advanced): thinking outside of NVDA

1. Windows API
2. Python libraries
3. Dependency checks
4. Using Component Object Model
5. Using advanced features of accessibility API's
6. Adding new math presentation layers and content recognition
frameworks
7. Troubleshooting braille input and output
8. Engaging with the wider python and programming communities
9. Ethical issues in code contributions
10. Things to think about when leading or working on an international
software project



Final skills test:

1. From a set of problems dealing with Python, write solutions for two
and provide an explanation for one of them.
2. Write an NVDA add-on that utilizes at least two concepts described
in one or more units.
3. For a major NVDA GitHub issue, identify, design, code, debug, test,
submit, maintain, and explain a solution.



I expect the minimum time to complete this course would be six months
(excluding Python intros and advanced topics), with most people taking
up to a year to master the concepts above and become comfortable while
providing basic code contributions. The Python version to be employed
will be a mixture of 2.7 and 3.6.



Comments are appreciated.

Cheers,

Joseph


--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration is:
imam hosein is the beacon of light and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages al-islam.org


kindle

Holger Fiallo <hfiallo@...>
 

 

Does anyone knows how to use kindle for pC with NVDA? Using W10 and current NVDA.
Holger Fiallo


Re: Doing Google Searches

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Hi, Brian,

 

The other day I was trying to do a search for a song on youtube. It was a very rare oldie I was trying to find for the music group I'm on. I couldn't find the song so I had to ask a member of the list if they had it. As far as google, I don't use the down-arrow to find search results. I use the H for headings and sometimes I can find what I'm looking for. If I go to a new site and try to find something, I don't always know what I'm looking for until I become familiar with that site. A good example of that is an oldies station I sometimes listen to. Since I'm familiar with that site, I can do the find command and look for the "listen live" link.

 

My point is this. Sometimes you can't always find something by searching no matter how hard you try. That's why we have email lists--so we can ask questions if we get stuck.

 

Rosemarie

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of brian
Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2017 2:44 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches

 

    I agree that just telling somone to just google that is very harch.  You can't always find what you are looking forand if you do you will have take a very long time down arrowing to find what you want.  The sighted can just look at their screens and see what they want but we can't.  People who tell somone on lists to just google it are the ones who are lazy they don't want to help and thats what email lists are for.  If you can't ask for help or ask a question with out getting critisized then why even have email list att and why are people even on list in the first place?   Maybe that person has lready has googled it but they could not find what they were looking for.  This even does happen to the sighted but because we are blind we are just not soposed to ask for help that seems to be a great sin in the blind community asking for help because we are soposed to be super independent.  Some people might need more training and we are all not at the same leavel of independence as others are and neither were they either.  It's often easier and faster to post a question and ask for help on an email list than it is to  just google it.  You will also get better results because the answers that you get come from other people who have found a sultion to your problem.  I am very greatful and very thankful for all of the help that I have received from people on lists and if I can help I will do so.

Brian Sackrider

 

On 8/18/2017 11:02 PM, Andy wrote:

This issue comes up from time to time, mostly on blind related lists. Interestingly, when among sighted people who have a tech question from time to time, usually if one knows the answer, they just give it. why have these lists at all if one can't feel comfortable asking a question? Now, if the same person asks questions repeatedly, and asks the same question over and over again, it may be appropriate to refer him or her to a resource, or advise that they may want to seek training, but i think that telling someone to "Google it" when they occasionally ask a question is rather harsh.

 

Andy

 

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 4:47 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches

 

Most of us including myself are lazy. Ok, I'll google for something but if I just can't find the answer or the pages are 10 years old (this did happen to me a few times) I will ask on a list and point to the steps I took to troubleshoot the issue, and the steps I tool to try and figure out on my own how to do what ever it is I'm trying to do with nvda, narrator, voiceover, talkback etc.

 

Take care

On Aug 18, 2017, at 12:28 PM, Andre Fisher <fishersmails123@...> wrote:

 

Hi.

A quick query. Lately, I have realized that most persons subscribed to this list, rather than going to Google or a search engine of their choice, seek to ask questions here prior to doing this type of research. I’d seriously like to know why, as I find this practice to be counterproductive. Why do I say this? Because sometimes, the responses that are given are incorrect. Why don’t persons read the NVDA User Guide, for example. It is well detailed. Could persons explain this to me?

 

 


Re: Doing Google Searches

Arlene
 

Oh okay. never heard of it. It probably wont work for ten.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: August-19-17 9:06 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches

 

It's a screen reader that has its own version of microsoft word, internet explorer and its own mail program. You use the alt key as your control key. It's been awhile since I played with it. I don't know if it works in windows 10 but at the time when I was working with it, I had my old windows 7 computer.

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Arlene
Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2017 8:45 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches

 

Hi, What is Cdesk?

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: August-19-17 11:14 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches

 

I have a friend who has a memory problem. She got this program called CDesk and was having a hard time trying to learn it. To make a long story short, she had a sighted teacher who was trying to teach it to her and he wasn't very patient with her. He told her then rehab counselor that she wasn't even trying so the counselor closed her case and that was very unfair. I installed the trial version of CDesk and played with it a bit. After learning the basics of it, I was able to help my friend learn it. Now she's doing great with it. She said learning jaws was very difficult for her but CDesk is pretty easy to use.

 

Rosemarie

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Sarah k Alawami
Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2017 10:23 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches

 

Well also don't forget. Some of us have memory issues. I do thanks to an accident. I have to read a manual, or if I can't digest what I just read I will ask and have someone walk me through what I need to do over and over and over again until I can do what ever it is.

 

One example speaking of nvda was the object navigation. I had a friend who knows my mental process go through the nvda object nav keys with me for about an hour until I got it as reading the manual for me that day was not going to work. I'm still learning nvda's object nav keys but I think I'm finally getting it by the way.

 

So for me that day googling would not have worked as I was having one of my not so good days.

 

Take care all.

On Aug 19, 2017, at 10:13 AM, Lino Morales <linomorales001@...> wrote:

 

I agree with you ANdy That's why if its not on here alreay a wiki for NVDA related issues.

 

On 8/18/2017 11:02 PM, Andy wrote:

This issue comes up from time to time, mostly on blind related lists. Interestingly, when among sighted people who have a tech question from time to time, usually if one knows the answer, they just give it. why have these lists at all if one can't feel comfortable asking a question? Now, if the same person asks questions repeatedly, and asks the same question over and over again, it may be appropriate to refer him or her to a resource, or advise that they may want to seek training, but i think that telling someone to "Google it" when they occasionally ask a question is rather harsh.

 

Andy

 

----- Original Message ----- 

Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 4:47 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches

 

Most of us including myself are lazy. Ok, I'll google for something but if I just can't find the answer or the pages are 10 years old (this did happen to me a few times) I will ask on a list and point to the steps I took to troubleshoot the issue, and the steps I tool to try and figure out on my own how to do what ever it is I'm trying to do with nvda, narrator, voiceover, talkback etc.

 

Take care

On Aug 18, 2017, at 12:28 PM, Andre Fisher <fishersmails123@...> wrote:

 

Hi.

A quick query. Lately, I have realized that most persons subscribed to this list, rather than going to Google or a search engine of their choice, seek to ask questions here prior to doing this type of research. I’d seriously like to know why, as I find this practice to be counterproductive. Why do I say this? Because sometimes, the responses that are given are incorrect. Why don’t persons read the NVDA User Guide, for example. It is well detailed. Could persons explain this to me?

 

 

 


Re: Doing Google Searches

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

It's a screen reader that has its own version of microsoft word, internet explorer and its own mail program. You use the alt key as your control key. It's been awhile since I played with it. I don't know if it works in windows 10 but at the time when I was working with it, I had my old windows 7 computer.

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Arlene
Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2017 8:45 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches

 

Hi, What is Cdesk?

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: August-19-17 11:14 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches

 

I have a friend who has a memory problem. She got this program called CDesk and was having a hard time trying to learn it. To make a long story short, she had a sighted teacher who was trying to teach it to her and he wasn't very patient with her. He told her then rehab counselor that she wasn't even trying so the counselor closed her case and that was very unfair. I installed the trial version of CDesk and played with it a bit. After learning the basics of it, I was able to help my friend learn it. Now she's doing great with it. She said learning jaws was very difficult for her but CDesk is pretty easy to use.

 

Rosemarie

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Sarah k Alawami
Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2017 10:23 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches

 

Well also don't forget. Some of us have memory issues. I do thanks to an accident. I have to read a manual, or if I can't digest what I just read I will ask and have someone walk me through what I need to do over and over and over again until I can do what ever it is.

 

One example speaking of nvda was the object navigation. I had a friend who knows my mental process go through the nvda object nav keys with me for about an hour until I got it as reading the manual for me that day was not going to work. I'm still learning nvda's object nav keys but I think I'm finally getting it by the way.

 

So for me that day googling would not have worked as I was having one of my not so good days.

 

Take care all.

On Aug 19, 2017, at 10:13 AM, Lino Morales <linomorales001@...> wrote:

 

I agree with you ANdy That's why if its not on here alreay a wiki for NVDA related issues.

 

On 8/18/2017 11:02 PM, Andy wrote:

This issue comes up from time to time, mostly on blind related lists. Interestingly, when among sighted people who have a tech question from time to time, usually if one knows the answer, they just give it. why have these lists at all if one can't feel comfortable asking a question? Now, if the same person asks questions repeatedly, and asks the same question over and over again, it may be appropriate to refer him or her to a resource, or advise that they may want to seek training, but i think that telling someone to "Google it" when they occasionally ask a question is rather harsh.

 

Andy

 

----- Original Message ----- 

Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 4:47 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches

 

Most of us including myself are lazy. Ok, I'll google for something but if I just can't find the answer or the pages are 10 years old (this did happen to me a few times) I will ask on a list and point to the steps I took to troubleshoot the issue, and the steps I tool to try and figure out on my own how to do what ever it is I'm trying to do with nvda, narrator, voiceover, talkback etc.

 

Take care

On Aug 18, 2017, at 12:28 PM, Andre Fisher <fishersmails123@...> wrote:

 

Hi.

A quick query. Lately, I have realized that most persons subscribed to this list, rather than going to Google or a search engine of their choice, seek to ask questions here prior to doing this type of research. I’d seriously like to know why, as I find this practice to be counterproductive. Why do I say this? Because sometimes, the responses that are given are incorrect. Why don’t persons read the NVDA User Guide, for example. It is well detailed. Could persons explain this to me?

 

 

 


Re: Doing Google Searches

Arlene
 

Sounds like me with this mild learning disability I have.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Sarah k Alawami
Sent: August-19-17 10:23 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches

 

Well also don't forget. Some of us have memory issues. I do thanks to an accident. I have to read a manual, or if I can't digest what I just read I will ask and have someone walk me through what I need to do over and over and over again until I can do what ever it is.

 

One example speaking of nvda was the object navigation. I had a friend who knows my mental process go through the nvda object nav keys with me for about an hour until I got it as reading the manual for me that day was not going to work. I'm still learning nvda's object nav keys but I think I'm finally getting it by the way.

 

So for me that day googling would not have worked as I was having one of my not so good days.

 

Take care all.

On Aug 19, 2017, at 10:13 AM, Lino Morales <linomorales001@...> wrote:

 

I agree with you ANdy That's why if its not on here alreay a wiki for NVDA related issues.

 

On 8/18/2017 11:02 PM, Andy wrote:

This issue comes up from time to time, mostly on blind related lists. Interestingly, when among sighted people who have a tech question from time to time, usually if one knows the answer, they just give it. why have these lists at all if one can't feel comfortable asking a question? Now, if the same person asks questions repeatedly, and asks the same question over and over again, it may be appropriate to refer him or her to a resource, or advise that they may want to seek training, but i think that telling someone to "Google it" when they occasionally ask a question is rather harsh.

 

Andy

 

----- Original Message ----- 

Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 4:47 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches

 

Most of us including myself are lazy. Ok, I'll google for something but if I just can't find the answer or the pages are 10 years old (this did happen to me a few times) I will ask on a list and point to the steps I took to troubleshoot the issue, and the steps I tool to try and figure out on my own how to do what ever it is I'm trying to do with nvda, narrator, voiceover, talkback etc.

 

Take care

On Aug 18, 2017, at 12:28 PM, Andre Fisher <fishersmails123@...> wrote:

 

Hi.

A quick query. Lately, I have realized that most persons subscribed to this list, rather than going to Google or a search engine of their choice, seek to ask questions here prior to doing this type of research. I’d seriously like to know why, as I find this practice to be counterproductive. Why do I say this? Because sometimes, the responses that are given are incorrect. Why don’t persons read the NVDA User Guide, for example. It is well detailed. Could persons explain this to me?

 

 

 


Re: Doing Google Searches

Arlene
 

It did. also the mod should have told you that some people could be both deaf and blind. I have a slight learning disability. Jaws was a bit of a nightmair for me to learn.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: August-19-17 11:01 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches

 

Hi, Sarah,

 

Wow, that's awful you got kicked off of a list for suggesting that that the person listen to a podcast because you couldn't explain what that person wanted to do. It sounds like those moderators were on a power trip.

 

Rosemarie

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Sarah k Alawami
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 11:01 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches

 

I actually got kicked off a list for telling someone to listen to x y and z's podcast on a subject. They wanted me to write the answer down in text. Um? Huh?  It was not this list, it was a different one I had ben  on for about 7 years. The moderators of that list basically told me off list I was being lazy. I don't think so as at the time this podcaster did a better job then I at explaining how to do the steps the person asking the question had. If all of this what I said  makes sense, that's good. Lol.

On Aug 18, 2017, at 10:00 PM, Melissa Jean <Melissa.J.Hammitt@...> wrote:

 

I'm not sure what other   people were thinking with their responses, but I know for certain that mine was not meant to be rude in anyway. I know for me, speaking from personal experience, listing what I do to find answers was supposed to be helpful in someway. I did not really see anywhere where someone said people who don't Google first shouldn't   be asking questions… Or anything along those lines. So, I don't really get this whole jump on the bandwagon and attacked people who ask the question "why don't people Google? " 

Just from observing over the years it seems that the people who jump on the people asking "why don't people google? "Are worse and the people who actually to ask why people don't do it a certain way…

Melissa

Sent from my iPhone


On Aug 18, 2017, at 11:35 PM, Arlene <nedster66@...> wrote:

Preach it Andy. I thought that’s what this list is for. If someone can’t find whatever it is using google. Then he she should be able to ask for any kind of help!

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: August-18-17 9:16 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches

 

Amen, Andy. I couldn't agree more. I almost left this list because I felt that a question wasn't being answered. If a person has tried searching for the answer on google or another search engine and can't find the answer, then he should be able to ask a question. After all, isn't that what this list is about--helping one another when we get stuck or have trouble finding an answer? 

 

Rosemarie 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Andy
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 8:02 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches

 

This issue comes up from time to time, mostly on blind related lists. Interestingly, when among sighted people who have a tech question from time to time, usually if one knows the answer, they just give it. why have these lists at all if one can't feel comfortable asking a question? Now, if the same person asks questions repeatedly, and asks the same question over and over again, it may be appropriate to refer him or her to a resource, or advise that they may want to seek training, but i think that telling someone to "Google it" when they occasionally ask a question is rather harsh.

 

Andy

 

----- Original Message ----- 

Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 4:47 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches

 

Most of us including myself are lazy. Ok, I'll google for something but if I just can't find the answer or the pages are 10 years old (this did happen to me a few times) I will ask on a list and point to the steps I took to troubleshoot the issue, and the steps I tool to try and figure out on my own how to do what ever it is I'm trying to do with nvda, narrator, voiceover, talkback etc. 

 

Take care

On Aug 18, 2017, at 12:28 PM, Andre Fisher <fishersmails123@...> wrote:

 

Hi.

A quick query. Lately, I have realized that most persons subscribed to this list, rather than going to Google or a search engine of their choice, seek to ask questions here prior to doing this type of research. I’d seriously like to know why, as I find this practice to be counterproductive. Why do I say this? Because sometimes, the responses that are given are incorrect. Why don’t persons read the NVDA User Guide, for example. It is well detailed. Could persons explain this to me?

 

 


Re: Doing Google Searches

Arlene
 

Hi, What is Cdesk?

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: August-19-17 11:14 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches

 

I have a friend who has a memory problem. She got this program called CDesk and was having a hard time trying to learn it. To make a long story short, she had a sighted teacher who was trying to teach it to her and he wasn't very patient with her. He told her then rehab counselor that she wasn't even trying so the counselor closed her case and that was very unfair. I installed the trial version of CDesk and played with it a bit. After learning the basics of it, I was able to help my friend learn it. Now she's doing great with it. She said learning jaws was very difficult for her but CDesk is pretty easy to use.

 

Rosemarie

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Sarah k Alawami
Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2017 10:23 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches

 

Well also don't forget. Some of us have memory issues. I do thanks to an accident. I have to read a manual, or if I can't digest what I just read I will ask and have someone walk me through what I need to do over and over and over again until I can do what ever it is.

 

One example speaking of nvda was the object navigation. I had a friend who knows my mental process go through the nvda object nav keys with me for about an hour until I got it as reading the manual for me that day was not going to work. I'm still learning nvda's object nav keys but I think I'm finally getting it by the way.

 

So for me that day googling would not have worked as I was having one of my not so good days.

 

Take care all.

On Aug 19, 2017, at 10:13 AM, Lino Morales <linomorales001@...> wrote:

 

I agree with you ANdy That's why if its not on here alreay a wiki for NVDA related issues.

 

On 8/18/2017 11:02 PM, Andy wrote:

This issue comes up from time to time, mostly on blind related lists. Interestingly, when among sighted people who have a tech question from time to time, usually if one knows the answer, they just give it. why have these lists at all if one can't feel comfortable asking a question? Now, if the same person asks questions repeatedly, and asks the same question over and over again, it may be appropriate to refer him or her to a resource, or advise that they may want to seek training, but i think that telling someone to "Google it" when they occasionally ask a question is rather harsh.

 

Andy

 

----- Original Message ----- 

Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 4:47 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches

 

Most of us including myself are lazy. Ok, I'll google for something but if I just can't find the answer or the pages are 10 years old (this did happen to me a few times) I will ask on a list and point to the steps I took to troubleshoot the issue, and the steps I tool to try and figure out on my own how to do what ever it is I'm trying to do with nvda, narrator, voiceover, talkback etc.

 

Take care

On Aug 18, 2017, at 12:28 PM, Andre Fisher <fishersmails123@...> wrote:

 

Hi.

A quick query. Lately, I have realized that most persons subscribed to this list, rather than going to Google or a search engine of their choice, seek to ask questions here prior to doing this type of research. I’d seriously like to know why, as I find this practice to be counterproductive. Why do I say this? Because sometimes, the responses that are given are incorrect. Why don’t persons read the NVDA User Guide, for example. It is well detailed. Could persons explain this to me?

 

 

 


Re: Request for comments: an outline of a complete course on NVDA internals and code contributions

 

hi joseph.
this cources are very great.
also do you provide for us html format of this book to download and
have all courses in one book, one collection and one file?
God bless you!

On 8/20/17, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi everyone,



Those of you on the users list may have heard about a subgroup over there
that aims to teach people how to contribute code to NVDA. After going over
some membership intros and looking at skill sets represented, I came up
with
a rough outline or a six to twelve month course on NVDA code contributions
and internals. Obviously most of the course content will require working
knowledge of Python, but for those who lack this, I've included a one unit
outline on Python.



Outline:



* Title: So you want to improve NVDA with code contributions?
* Instructor: one or more NVDA experts and developers, along with
several Python users as tutors
* Purpose: the overall purpose of this course is to equip new
developers with knowledge required to provide code contributions to NVDA
project. Topics covered include a short review of Python, running NVDA from
source code, source code layout and overall architecture, behind the scenes
tour of features and commands, as well as things required when contributing
code such as identifying, designing, coding, debugging, testing,
submitting,
maintaining, and explaining new features, changes and bug fixes.
* Goals: have a working knowledge of Python so students can use it in
NVDA and other projects; learn the overall purpose and architecture of
NVDA;
have knowledge of workings of features and commands through reading,
understanding and writing source code; learn tips for becoming successful
NVDA code contributors who serves the community and improves NVDA; develop
critical problem solving and thinking skills required in today's software
engineering projects including that of NVDA.



Course outline:



Unit 0: Review of Python

1. Python is a general-purpose programming language
2. Downloading and using Python
3. Explain variables, how to import useful modules, conditionals and
loops
4. Learn how to define functions.
5. Design classes and objects
6. Learn to interact with lists, dictionaries, sets, tuples and other
objects of interest
7. Use modules and objects provided by Python to solve various problems
8. Exercise: random walk on a treadmill
9. Expected duration: four to six months



Skills test and preview 0: come up with solutions to two other problems via
Python, write a design for an add-on, or write about how a student would
solve an NVDA issue on GitHub.



Unit 1: Basics and the big picture

1. What screen readers are and are not
2. A portrait of operations of a screen reader
3. A brief history of NVDA
4. Obtaining NVDA source code
5. Compiling NVDA's source code with dependencies
6. Running NVDA from source for the first time
7. Example of code contribution: command to restart NVDA with no
prompts
8. Expected duration: one month



Skills test and preview 1: explain in your own words how you would teach
your friend to download NVDA source code.



Unit 2: NVDA at a glance

1. Features overview
2. Source code layout
3. Overall architecture
4. Importance of objects, events, and modules
5. Extensibility through classes
6. Why accessibility API's matter
7. Exercise: what is the code responsible for announcing speech via
beeps?
8. Example of code contribution: Popping up browse mode window for some
NVDA messages
9. Expected duration: two months



Skills test and preview 2: in your own words, describe ui.message function.



Unit 3: feature and command internals 1

1. Global commands
2. Focus, caret, system cursor
3. Object navigation, properties, developer information and object
hierarchy
4. Accessibility API's
5. Review cursor and text infos
6. Keyboard, mouse, and touchscreen
7. Basics of browse mode
8. Exercise: explain how NvDA+T command works to a new user
9. Example of code contribution: indentation announcement by tones
10. Expected duration: two to three months



Skills test and preview 3: in your own words, describe either one property
of a navigator object or how a first letter navigation command works in
browse mode.



Unit 4: Feature and command internals 2

1. App modules, global plugins and add-ons
2. Speech, braille, and tones
3. Synthesizers and braille displays
4. Math presentation layer and content recognition framework
5. NVDA dialogs, configuration management, and managing add-ons
6. Exercise: track down bugs in speech synthesizers
7. Example of code contribution: Unicode braille output
8. Expected duration: two months



Skills test and preview 4: in your own words, define what a speech
synthesizer driver is.



Unit 5: Code contributions

1. Identifying issues and suggestions
2. Designing a problem and its solution(s)
3. Coding a solution
4. Debugging and testing solutions
5. Effective use of log viewer and Python Console
6. Submitting, maintaining, and explaining a feature, a change, or a
bug fix
7. Exercise: not all warnings from the log are fatal
8. Example of code contribution: tab completion in Python Console
9. Expected duration: two to three months



Skills test and preview 5: write a solution for a minor issue on GitHub or
a
small add-on that uses any concept from previous units.



Unit 6: Beyond code contributions

1. Translations
2. Documentation
3. Keep in touch with users and others in the community
4. Researching new ideas alone or in groups
5. Working on collaborative projects
6. Apply skills from NVDA to other projects
7. Exercise: write an article explaining inner workings of a community
add-on
8. Example of code contribution: Liblouis project
9. Expected duration: one month



Unit 7 (advanced): thinking outside of NVDA

1. Windows API
2. Python libraries
3. Dependency checks
4. Using Component Object Model
5. Using advanced features of accessibility API's
6. Adding new math presentation layers and content recognition
frameworks
7. Troubleshooting braille input and output
8. Engaging with the wider python and programming communities
9. Ethical issues in code contributions
10. Things to think about when leading or working on an international
software project



Final skills test:

1. From a set of problems dealing with Python, write solutions for two
and provide an explanation for one of them.
2. Write an NVDA add-on that utilizes at least two concepts described
in one or more units.
3. For a major NVDA GitHub issue, identify, design, code, debug, test,
submit, maintain, and explain a solution.



I expect the minimum time to complete this course would be six months
(excluding Python intros and advanced topics), with most people taking up
to
a year to master the concepts above and become comfortable while providing
basic code contributions. The Python version to be employed will be a
mixture of 2.7 and 3.6.



Comments are appreciated.

Cheers,

Joseph

--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration is:
imam hosein is the beacon of light and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
al-islam.org


Re: Doing Google Searches

 

Yeah, I can think of one instance or 2 where that happened.

My aunt and dad are nitorious for getting passwords wrong, and things wrong.

Yet when I get on the system everything works as expected.

Another time,  my dad was trying to set up an update to his gps and also to print some documents as well.

How he got completely right accross the net into malware ransom ware and add filled sites not noticing the path to the direct place where he had to go to login and update is beyond me.

After killing all the unwanted software and malware I tried the same procedure, and just couldn't ffmind where faulted it.

Then I guess its what the sightlings see dad never sees or rather reads the entire screen and whenever he moves the mouse about nvda reads all over the show and not the right thing he should be clicking.

On another instance I turned on my uncle's system, and found it full of malware, I said what happened.

Well he said I got a notice on a website that my system was insecure, so I clicked it, there are all these icons in my system tray, and they are probably malware.

I am unsure how I kept a straight face.

The guy was scared aof his notification icons which were telling him he had updates, things to click, and most importantly ok things are fine messages.

My responce after I stopped laughing, please don't be scared about your icons, hit them and they will reveal their secrets.

Saying that I have had people go all over the show for no reason to complete what should be a 2 minute procedure and when you really try to tell them as slowly as you can ie how to change the wireless password or copy a file to a dropbox foldr its like talking to a 386 it just can't be done.

On 19/08/2017 8:55 p.m., Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
Yes there are also people who tend to have a weird effect the minute they walk anywhere near your pc. I used not to believe in this effect, but i have a friend who only needs to come in and sit near me and things start to misbehave.

Of course there are those who just do not get into the windows concept or indeed the computers concept at all and for them the whole thing is black magic and completely incomprehensibility. they will click a link merely cos its there and then wonder why they get malware.
I have never ever had to reformat a machine only I use.
It is only those who are very bad at thinking about what they are doing that seem to have problems. Of course hardware fails, power outages can corrupt discs etc, but under normal conditions things are retrievable.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Shaun Everiss" <sm.everiss@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2017 7:15 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches


<sigh>

I get this with a few users I fix their systems that want me to fix a mistake they keep making.

Even with my best intentions they always seem not to take my advice.

I'd like to say to them, simply, pick up your laptop, and throw it outside your window into a drum of petrol and set that on fire then quit bugging me for all time.

I don't do this, I simply tell them that they should reformat and that a good reformat fixes everything, and if they have any issue they should reformat and quit bothering me which is the same thing.

I then give them some software and send them on their way.

I have had to do this to a person that wishes to crack software, gets viruses and stuff and treats her technology like I would treat my bike or my running shorts at the gym.

That is beat it all till it doesn't work, then fixes things and says it works.

No pride at all.

I have happily only had to do this with about 3 people in the same place mainly because they did the same thing over and over and that got on my whick.

There are just some people that shouldn't use a pc I guess.

Sucks to be them but one can only handle the same issue day to day for so long.




On 19/08/2017 6:00 p.m., Sarah k Alawami wrote:
I actually got kicked off a list for telling someone to listen to x y and z's podcast on a subject. They wanted me to write the answer down in text. Um? Huh?  It was not this list, it was a different one I had ben on for about 7 years. The moderators of that list basically told me off list I was being lazy. I don't think so as at the time this podcaster did a better job then I at explaining how to do the steps the person asking the question had. If all of this what I said  makes sense, that's good. Lol.
On Aug 18, 2017, at 10:00 PM, Melissa Jean <Melissa.J.Hammitt@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm not sure what other   people were thinking with their responses, but I know for certain that mine was not meant to be rude in anyway. I know for me, speaking from personal experience, listing what I do to find answers was supposed to be helpful in someway. I did not really see anywhere where someone said people who don't Google first shouldn't be asking questions… Or anything along those lines. So, I don't really get this whole jump on the bandwagon and attacked people who ask the question "why don't people Google? "
Just from observing over the years it seems that the people who jump on the people asking "why don't people google? "Are worse and the people who actually to ask why people don't do it a certain way…

Melissa
Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 18, 2017, at 11:35 PM, Arlene <nedster66@gmail.com <mailto:nedster66@gmail.com>> wrote:

Preach it Andy. I thought that’s what this list is for. If someone can’t find whatever it is using google. Then he she should be able to ask for any kind of help!
  From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>] On Behalf Of Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: August-18-17 9:16 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches
  Amen, Andy. I couldn't agree more. I almost left this list because I felt that a question wasn't being answered. If a person has tried searching for the answer on google or another search engine and can't find the answer, then he should be able to ask a question. After all, isn't that what this list is about--helping one another when we get stuck or have trouble finding an answer?
  Rosemarie
  From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>] On Behalf Of Andy
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 8:02 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches
  This issue comes up from time to time, mostly on blind related lists. Interestingly, when among sighted people who have a tech question from time to time, usually if one knows the answer, they just give it. why have these lists at all if one can't feel comfortable asking a question? Now, if the same person asks questions repeatedly, and asks the same question over and over again, it may be appropriate to refer him or her to a resource, or advise that they may want to seek training, but i think that telling someone to "Google it" when they occasionally ask a question is rather harsh.
  Andy
  ----- Original Message -----
From: Sarah k Alawami <mailto:marrie12@gmail.com>
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 4:47 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches
  Most of us including myself are lazy. Ok, I'll google for something but if I just can't find the answer or the pages are 10 years old (this did happen to me a few times) I will ask on a list and point to the steps I took to troubleshoot the issue, and the steps I tool to try and figure out on my own how to do what ever it is I'm trying to do with nvda, narrator, voiceover, talkback etc.
  Take care
On Aug 18, 2017, at 12:28 PM, Andre Fisher <fishersmails123@gmail.com <mailto:fishersmails123@gmail.com>> wrote:
  Hi.
A quick query. Lately, I have realized that most persons subscribed to this list, rather than going to Google or a search engine of their choice, seek to ask questions here prior to doing this type of research. I’d seriously like to know why, as I find this practice to be counterproductive. Why do I say this? Because sometimes, the responses that are given are incorrect. Why don’t persons read the NVDA User Guide, for example. It is well detailed. Could persons explain this to me?





.


Re: question

Gene
 

That's if you aren't using sticky keys.  If you are using sticky keys, the caps lock doesn't work that way.  You should press shift twice to lock it and have it work as though you had caps lock on.  Then if you want to turn it off, press it once.
 
I haven't checked to see what the caps lock key does if sticky keys are on and NVDA isn't using it as an NVDA key.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2017 6:54 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] question

Hi


You are probably aware that if the caps lock key is selected as a modifier key it has to be hit 2 times to turn caps lock on and two for off..


if it is selected as the modifier key then it would be that key and say the letter N to get into the preferences of nvda.


here unless i am writing some thing unless it is more than a letter i just use the shift key for just one letter and if i want all of them capitalized I might then put that key on to do it then turn it off.


Gene nz



On 20/08/2017 00:38, anthony borg wrote:

Hi list

Can someone help me to figure out this problem please?

On my laptop I use the sticky keys to be able to use the keyboard with one hand, but since I started to use the n v d a, I am meeting this problem. ?

Since I started to use the capslock as n v d a, now I can’t use it to write a capital letter, as usual, if any n v d a programmer can help me to solve this problem I would appreciate it very much.

Thanks in advance

Anthony



Re: question

Gene New Zealand <hurrikennyandopo@...>
 

Hi


You are probably aware that if the caps lock key is selected as a modifier key it has to be hit 2 times to turn caps lock on and two for off..


if it is selected as the modifier key then it would be that key and say the letter N to get into the preferences of nvda.


here unless i am writing some thing unless it is more than a letter i just use the shift key for just one letter and if i want all of them capitalized I might then put that key on to do it then turn it off.


Gene nz

 


On 20/08/2017 00:38, anthony borg wrote:

Hi list

Can someone help me to figure out this problem please?

On my laptop I use the sticky keys to be able to use the keyboard with one hand, but since I started to use the n v d a, I am meeting this problem. ?

Since I started to use the capslock as n v d a, now I can’t use it to write a capital letter, as usual, if any n v d a programmer can help me to solve this problem I would appreciate it very much.

Thanks in advance

Anthony



Request for comments: an outline of a complete course on NVDA internals and code contributions

 

Hi everyone,

 

Those of you on the users list may have heard about a subgroup over there that aims to teach people how to contribute code to NVDA. After going over some membership intros and looking at skill sets represented, I came up with a rough outline or a six to twelve month course on NVDA code contributions and internals. Obviously most of the course content will require working knowledge of Python, but for those who lack this, I’ve included a one unit outline on Python.

 

Outline:

 

  • Title: So you want to improve NVDA with code contributions?
  • Instructor: one or more NVDA experts and developers, along with several Python users as tutors
  • Purpose: the overall purpose of this course is to equip new developers with knowledge required to provide code contributions to NVDA project. Topics covered include a short review of Python, running NVDA from source code, source code layout and overall architecture, behind the scenes tour of features and commands, as well as things required when contributing code such as identifying, designing, coding, debugging, testing, submitting, maintaining, and explaining new features, changes and bug fixes.
  • Goals: have a working knowledge of Python so students can use it in NVDA and other projects; learn the overall purpose and architecture of NVDA; have knowledge of workings of features and commands through reading, understanding and writing source code; learn tips for becoming successful NVDA code contributors who serves the community and improves NVDA; develop critical problem solving and thinking skills required in today’s software engineering projects including that of NVDA.

 

Course outline:

 

Unit 0: Review of Python

  1. Python is a general-purpose programming language
  2. Downloading and using Python
  3. Explain variables, how to import useful modules, conditionals and loops
  4. Learn how to define functions.
  5. Design classes and objects
  6. Learn to interact with lists, dictionaries, sets, tuples and other objects of interest
  7. Use modules and objects provided by Python to solve various problems
  8. Exercise: random walk on a treadmill
  9. Expected duration: four to six months

 

Skills test and preview 0: come up with solutions to two other problems via Python, write a design for an add-on, or write about how a student would solve an NVDA issue on GitHub.

 

Unit 1: Basics and the big picture

  1. What screen readers are and are not
  2. A portrait of operations of a screen reader
  3. A brief history of NVDA
  4. Obtaining NVDA source code
  5. Compiling NVDA’s source code with dependencies
  6. Running NVDA from source for the first time
  7. Example of code contribution: command to restart NVDA with no prompts
  8. Expected duration: one month

 

Skills test and preview 1: explain in your own words how you would teach your friend to download NVDA source code.

 

Unit 2: NVDA at a glance

  1. Features overview
  2. Source code layout
  3. Overall architecture
  4. Importance of objects, events, and modules
  5. Extensibility through classes
  6. Why accessibility API’s matter
  7. Exercise: what is the code responsible for announcing speech via beeps?
  8. Example of code contribution: Popping up browse mode window for some NVDA messages
  9. Expected duration: two months

 

Skills test and preview 2: in your own words, describe ui.message function.

 

Unit 3: feature and command internals 1

  1. Global commands
  2. Focus, caret, system cursor
  3. Object navigation, properties, developer information and object hierarchy
  4. Accessibility API’s
  5. Review cursor and text infos
  6. Keyboard, mouse, and touchscreen
  7. Basics of browse mode
  8. Exercise: explain how NvDA+T command works to a new user
  9. Example of code contribution: indentation announcement by tones
  10. Expected duration: two to three months

 

Skills test and preview 3: in your own words, describe either one property of a navigator object or how a first letter navigation command works in browse mode.

 

Unit 4: Feature and command internals 2

  1. App modules, global plugins and add-ons
  2. Speech, braille, and tones
  3. Synthesizers and braille displays
  4. Math presentation layer and content recognition framework
  5. NVDA dialogs, configuration management, and managing add-ons
  6. Exercise: track down bugs in speech synthesizers
  7. Example of code contribution: Unicode braille output
  8. Expected duration: two months

 

Skills test and preview 4: in your own words, define what a speech synthesizer driver is.

 

Unit 5: Code contributions

  1. Identifying issues and suggestions
  2. Designing a problem and its solution(s)
  3. Coding a solution
  4. Debugging and testing solutions
  5. Effective use of log viewer and Python Console
  6. Submitting, maintaining, and explaining a feature, a change, or a bug fix
  7. Exercise: not all warnings from the log are fatal
  8. Example of code contribution: tab completion in Python Console
  9. Expected duration: two to three months

 

Skills test and preview 5: write a solution for a minor issue on GitHub or a small add-on that uses any concept from previous units.

 

Unit 6: Beyond code contributions

  1. Translations
  2. Documentation
  3. Keep in touch with users and others in the community
  4. Researching new ideas alone or in groups
  5. Working on collaborative projects
  6. Apply skills from NVDA to other projects
  7. Exercise: write an article explaining inner workings of a community add-on
  8. Example of code contribution: Liblouis project
  9. Expected duration: one month

 

Unit 7 (advanced): thinking outside of NVDA

  1. Windows API
  2. Python libraries
  3. Dependency checks
  4. Using Component Object Model
  5. Using advanced features of accessibility API’s
  6. Adding new math presentation layers and content recognition frameworks
  7. Troubleshooting braille input and output
  8. Engaging with the wider python and programming communities
  9. Ethical issues in code contributions
  10. Things to think about when leading or working on an international software project

 

Final skills test:

  1. From a set of problems dealing with Python, write solutions for two and provide an explanation for one of them.
  2. Write an NVDA add-on that utilizes at least two concepts described in one or more units.
  3. For a major NVDA GitHub issue, identify, design, code, debug, test, submit, maintain, and explain a solution.

 

I expect the minimum time to complete this course would be six months (excluding Python intros and advanced topics), with most people taking up to a year to master the concepts above and become comfortable while providing basic code contributions. The Python version to be employed will be a mixture of 2.7 and 3.6.

 

Comments are appreciated.

Cheers,

Joseph


Re: Doing Google Searches

Gene
 

Such generalizations are meaningless.  there is information that lists can provide more efficiently than googling something.  An example is a command people ask about in Microsoft Word that they accidently activate that causes Word to show, and the screen-reader to read all sorts of unwanted material such as to announce every paragraph marker.  It was difficult and time consuming for me to find the command through a search.  There are other things, such as when someone may use a term or ask what a program is or something else of interest that is information and not blindness specific, that may be easily found by searching for it.  Note carefully that I'm not saying people shouldn't ask.  I'm simply pointing out that what is being searched for has a good deal to do with how quickly and easily information can be found compared to asking on a list. 
 
If someone said, for example, I really like my blue tooth headphones and I didn't know what blue tooth is, I could get a good overview by doing a search for blue tooth wikipedia and then reading the introductory paragraph before the main article starts.  Wikipedia has such introductory paragraphs for all articles as a matter of policy, as far as I know.  Again, I'm not saying people shouldn't  ask what blue tooth is on the list.  I'm discussing what can easily be found and what may not be.  And this goes back to my message yesterday about how a lot of blind people are not taking good advantage of the enormous amount of information online, the first time in history that we have access to anywhere near the amount of information sighted people do.
 
People are so sensative about this issue that I seldom tell people to google something because so many people are offended.  But if you look at it logically, someone politely asking someone to Google something could be seen as a way to increase peoples' computer skills or encourage them to develop more confidence in their abilities by encouraging them to try things.  And it may encourage discussion that will help people be more confident and skilled computer users.
 
For example, in your post, you talk about how long you have to spend down arrowing to find something.  I don't know specifically enough what you are referring to.  I can say that there are ways to find information quickly on a web page.  If I want to find information, I might use the find command and search the page for a word I expect to be used in a relevant part of the page.  I might move by headings.  I might skim a bit of each paragraph.  There may be other ways I haven't thought of but discussing the question may give you ideas that will make looking for information far more efficient for you and it may make your Internet use in general more efficient and productive.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: brian
Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2017 4:43 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches

    I agree that just telling somone to just google that is very harch.  You can't always find what you are looking forand if you do you will have take a very long time down arrowing to find what you want.  The sighted can just look at their screens and see what they want but we can't.  People who tell somone on lists to just google it are the ones who are lazy they don't want to help and thats what email lists are for.  If you can't ask for help or ask a question with out getting critisized then why even have email list att and why are people even on list in the first place?   Maybe that person has lready has googled it but they could not find what they were looking for.  This even does happen to the sighted but because we are blind we are just not soposed to ask for help that seems to be a great sin in the blind community asking for help because we are soposed to be super independent.  Some people might need more training and we are all not at the same leavel of independence as others are and neither were they either.  It's often easier and faster to post a question and ask for help on an email list than it is to  just google it.  You will also get better results because the answers that you get come from other people who have found a sultion to your problem.  I am very greatful and very thankful for all of the help that I have received from people on lists and if I can help I will do so.

Brian Sackrider


On 8/18/2017 11:02 PM, Andy wrote:
This issue comes up from time to time, mostly on blind related lists. Interestingly, when among sighted people who have a tech question from time to time, usually if one knows the answer, they just give it. why have these lists at all if one can't feel comfortable asking a question? Now, if the same person asks questions repeatedly, and asks the same question over and over again, it may be appropriate to refer him or her to a resource, or advise that they may want to seek training, but i think that telling someone to "Google it" when they occasionally ask a question is rather harsh.
 
Andy
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 4:47 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches

Most of us including myself are lazy. Ok, I'll google for something but if I just can't find the answer or the pages are 10 years old (this did happen to me a few times) I will ask on a list and point to the steps I took to troubleshoot the issue, and the steps I tool to try and figure out on my own how to do what ever it is I'm trying to do with nvda, narrator, voiceover, talkback etc.

Take care
On Aug 18, 2017, at 12:28 PM, Andre Fisher <fishersmails123@...> wrote:

Hi.
A quick query. Lately, I have realized that most persons subscribed to this list, rather than going to Google or a search engine of their choice, seek to ask questions here prior to doing this type of research. I’d seriously like to know why, as I find this practice to be counterproductive. Why do I say this? Because sometimes, the responses that are given are incorrect. Why don’t persons read the NVDA User Guide, for example. It is well detailed. Could persons explain this to me?



Re: Doing Google Searches

brian <sackriderbrian45@...>
 

    I agree that just telling somone to just google that is very harch.  You can't always find what you are looking forand if you do you will have take a very long time down arrowing to find what you want.  The sighted can just look at their screens and see what they want but we can't.  People who tell somone on lists to just google it are the ones who are lazy they don't want to help and thats what email lists are for.  If you can't ask for help or ask a question with out getting critisized then why even have email list att and why are people even on list in the first place?   Maybe that person has lready has googled it but they could not find what they were looking for.  This even does happen to the sighted but because we are blind we are just not soposed to ask for help that seems to be a great sin in the blind community asking for help because we are soposed to be super independent.  Some people might need more training and we are all not at the same leavel of independence as others are and neither were they either.  It's often easier and faster to post a question and ask for help on an email list than it is to  just google it.  You will also get better results because the answers that you get come from other people who have found a sultion to your problem.  I am very greatful and very thankful for all of the help that I have received from people on lists and if I can help I will do so.

Brian Sackrider


On 8/18/2017 11:02 PM, Andy wrote:
This issue comes up from time to time, mostly on blind related lists. Interestingly, when among sighted people who have a tech question from time to time, usually if one knows the answer, they just give it. why have these lists at all if one can't feel comfortable asking a question? Now, if the same person asks questions repeatedly, and asks the same question over and over again, it may be appropriate to refer him or her to a resource, or advise that they may want to seek training, but i think that telling someone to "Google it" when they occasionally ask a question is rather harsh.
 
Andy
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 4:47 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing Google Searches

Most of us including myself are lazy. Ok, I'll google for something but if I just can't find the answer or the pages are 10 years old (this did happen to me a few times) I will ask on a list and point to the steps I took to troubleshoot the issue, and the steps I tool to try and figure out on my own how to do what ever it is I'm trying to do with nvda, narrator, voiceover, talkback etc.

Take care
On Aug 18, 2017, at 12:28 PM, Andre Fisher <fishersmails123@...> wrote:

Hi.
A quick query. Lately, I have realized that most persons subscribed to this list, rather than going to Google or a search engine of their choice, seek to ask questions here prior to doing this type of research. I’d seriously like to know why, as I find this practice to be counterproductive. Why do I say this? Because sometimes, the responses that are given are incorrect. Why don’t persons read the NVDA User Guide, for example. It is well detailed. Could persons explain this to me?