Hi,
As I noted on Win10 forum (not here) numerous times, the level of accessibility of universal apps depends on willingness from vendors to take accessibility seriously and commit to it. In other words, what matters now is attitudes, not just aptitude. Microsoft is a prime example of what happens when a company takes accessibility seriously, whereas Facebook is not (I myself have given up on accessibility of Facebook universal app; sending numerous advisories and attempts at talking to FB to take accessibility seriously didn't work). But attitudes from vendors is just part of the picture: attitudes from screen reader vendors is also important, as VFO customers are finding out the hard way these days, just as NVDA users did two years ago when support for Edge and universal apps was in infancy. As this month happens to be the second anniversary of Windows 10 App Essentials, I'll reaffirm my vow that, as long as Windows 10 ecosystem and universal apps live, I'll continue to provide new versions of this add-on (the next stable version is scheduled for tomorrow and it supports changes made to Windows Store in August via release preview ring).
By the way, apart from one or two issues, NVDA 2017.3 is ready for Windows 10 Fall Creators Update (the issues are inability to navigate emoji panel with synthesizers other than OneCore and not being able to adjust speech rate for this synthesizer just yet, both of which require using newer Windows SDK versions).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Lino Morales
Sent: Monday, September 4, 2017 4:36 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and Windows older versions

Speaking of UWP apps Joseph needs to circulate his awesome post on making them accessible in WIN 10. We haven't made any progress in my opinion in the blindness coummity contacting MS. Facebook and FB Messenger being the 2 that once were.


On 9/4/2017 4:59 AM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:

I know I read it, but to be honest. its a concept issue. Some of use
find the logic hard to actually get into our motor memory, whereas the
old sort of menus worked as each was obviously the same from the logic
point of view. but I'm not going to start a ribbon vs other ideas
thread of annoyance here. Far more worrying are these badly named
universal apps where it seems almost anything goes from no menu bars
to some and with buttons dumped any old place for no good reason on
the screen. Brian

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----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2017 6:32 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and Windows older versions


Regardless of all the doom and gloom you hear all over about ribbons,
th3ey are nothing more than a different and perfectly logical way of
organizing programs. Here is a tutorial I wrote to provide
instruction in learning ribbons. it appears below my signature.

Gene

I'll provide a brief tutorial based on what I wrote years ago of how
to work with ribbons.

I've added a little to it here.

I don't know how the organization of Windows has changed in Windows 10
but this description should allow you to look through the Windows
ribbons, or any other ribbons, and see how things are organized.

First, I'll discuss a structure found in later versions of Windows
that you need to know about-- the split button.
One thing you will see as you look around ribbons and in other places
in Windows are split buttons. A split button often allows you to see
more options than just the default action. Let's take an example.
Let's say you come across a split button that says shut down Windows.
If you press enter on that button, Windows will shut down. That is
the default action. Split buttons often show more options if you
either right arrow while on the button or down arrow. As an example,
if you are on the shut down split button, you can right arrow and a
list of options will open. the items in the list include sleep,
hibernate, restart, and others. You up or down arrow through the list
or use the short cut commands you hear announced as you move through
the list. the letter shortcuts often take actions without pressing
enter so be careful when using them, just as you are in menus.

So, let's review. You find a split button that says shut down. If you
press enter, the computer will shut down. If you right arrow, other
options may be displayed. Or if you down arrow, other options may be
displayed. A split button won't work with both methods. One method,
either right arrowing or down arrowing will do so if it can be done
with the button. Try both methods if you don't know which one might
work. If you are on a tool bar which extends across the screen from
left to right, down arrowing will open additional options. If you
think about this, it makes sense. If you are in a menu, down arrowing
will move you to the next item in the menu. So you right arrow on the
split button to cause it to display more options. In a tool bar that
extends across the screen from left to right, right arrowing will move
you to the next item in the tool bar. So you down arrow when on the
split button to cause it to display more options. But some tool bars
run up and down the screen, as menus do. And at times, you may not be
sure which way a structure extends on screen. So, as I said, if you
are not sure or don't know, try both methods of causing the split
button to display more options. Often, one of them will work. If you
open the options a split button offers and don't want to work with
them, arrow in the opposite direction to move out of them. For
example, if you right arrowed to open more options, left arrow.
Some split buttons don't do anything when you right arrow or down
arrow. In that case, open them with alt down arrow. Then tab through
the additional options. I've almost never worked in this way with
split buttons but if you want to close a split button, try alt up
arrow if you've used alt down arrow to open it.

Now, to ribbons themselves.

Regarding ribbons, much of the complaining about them is not warranted
if you understand how they work and how to use short cut commands
effectively and efficiently. and I would strongly recommend against
using the JAWS virtual menus, no matter what the JAWS training
material says about ribbons being difficult to use. the training
material is just plain wrong and using virtual menus, you will be
unnecessarily dependent on one screen-reader. There are other
disadvantages to using them which I won't go into here.

Try looking at ribbons and doing what is described below in wordpad.
Everyone with Windows 7 has Wordpad on their machine. Wordpad provides
a good environment to look at and practice working with ribbons.

The essence of working with ribbons is this:
Press alt to move to the upper ribbon.
You will probably be on an item that says home tab. Items on the upper
ribbon are announced as tabs such as home tab, view tab, etc.
To see what ribbons are available, right or left arrow repeatedly to
move through the ribbons. Move in one direction to move through all
of them, just as you would to move through all the menus.

For this demonstration, just so we are all doing the same thing, move
with the right arrow. When you get back to where you started, you can
keep right arrowing to move through the items again, if you wish. You
can move through all the items as many times as you want. Or you can
move with the left arrow whenever you want to move in the opposite
direction.

Stop on view. Then start tabbing. You will move through all items in
what is called the lower ribbon that are in the view ribbon.

In other words you tab to see the items in a ribbon once you move to
it. Tab moves you forward through the items, shift tab moves you
backword.
So tab and shift tab are used instead of up and down arrow.

Many items in the lower ribbon are buttons. Use either the space bar
or enter to activate the button. You may find a button that opens a
menu and if you press enter or the space bar, you will then be in a menu.

Each time you move to an item, you will hear the short cut command to
work with that item.
But JAWS has a bug and you often won't. To hear the short cut, use
the command JAWS key tab. If you are using the default JAWS key, it
is either insert.

Try tabbing to an item in a Wordpad ribbon and using the command
insert tab. You will hear some extraneous information. The last thing
you will hear is the short cut sequence. You can repeat the
information by repeating the command as often as you want.

Let's look at an item which is usually called the application menu.
Return to the main program window in wordpad by closing the ribbons.
You can either press escape repeatedly, if necessary, or you can press
alt once. Now, open the ribbons again with alt.
Start right arrowing until you get to the application menu.
You will hear application menu and then something like button drop
down grid. Never mind drop down grid. It's a description you don't
have to worry about. The important things are that you are on a
button and at the application menu. Press enter or the space bar to
activate the button. Activating the button opens the menu. Start down
arrowing. you will hear all the short cut commands necessary to open
an item or take an action. When you got to the menu item, you heard
alt f. When you open the menu and move through it, you will hear all
the letters announced. for example, if you down arrow to save as, you
will hear alt f a. that means that, when you are in the main program
window, you open the menu as you always did, alt f, then type a. Alt
f opens the menau and a then opens save as. Ribbon programs have one
menu and you should look through it. Many important and common
commands and interfaces such as options may be there. By options, I
mean the kind of options interface you used to find in the tools menu.

Now the we have seen the menu, let's look at the ribbons structure
some more.
To review, and add more information, as you have seen, you can move to
the ribbon interface with alt. Then right and left arrow, just as you
would move from menu to menu.
You can also move to a ribbon using alt and a letter. So, alt h takes
you to the home ribbon. Alt v takes you to the view ribbon, etc.
Once you are on the ribbon you want to work with, tab to move forward
through the items in a ribbon. Shift tab to move back through the
items. So tab and shift tab are used instead of up and down arrow.
Ribbons are divided into categories which you will hear announced as
you tab. for example, in an e-mail program, a ribbon may have a
category named respond. You may hear this announced as respond tool
bar. As you tab, you will hear commands such as reply and forward in
the respond category. When you hear a category announced, don't tab
until you hear everything spoken. You will miss the first command in
the category if you do. I'm talking about working with an unfamiliar
ribbon.
there are often many more commands and items in a ribbon than in a
menu. So memorize command sequences for items you know you will use
regularly.
As I said, there are different categories in ribbons to help organize
items. You can quickly jump from category to category in a ribbon to
help you see if there is a category you want to look through.
Move to a ribbon in Wordpad. For example, alt h for hhome or alt v
for view.
Then repeatedly issue the command control right arrow to move forward
from category to category and control left arrow to move back. When
you get to a category you want to hear the items in, start tabbing.
Of course, you can shift tab to move back.

Open a ribbon in Wordpad and tab through it to see how it is organized
by moving through it.
Then use control right arrow to move by category and tab to see what
is in a category.

Commands such as control o, control n, control s, control r, etc. are
mostly retained in programs that use ribbons, though you won't hear
them announced. If you don't already know them, you'll have to find
them in ways such as by looking at a list of keyboard commands for the
program. Such lists are often available in the help for the program.
If you already know the commands from having used an older version of
the program, most or perhaps even all of the commands you know will
work.

I know I read it, but to be honest. its a concept issue. Some of use
find the logic hard to actually get into our motor memory, whereas the
old sort of menus worked as each was obviously the same from the logic
point of view. but I'm not going to start a ribbon vs other ideas
thread of annoyance here. Far more worrying are these badly named
universal apps where it seems almost anything goes from no menu bars
to some and with buttons dumped any old place for no good reason on
the screen. Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2017 6:32 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and Windows older versions


Regardless of all the doom and gloom you hear all over about ribbons,
th3ey are nothing more than a different and perfectly logical way of
organizing programs. Here is a tutorial I wrote to provide
instruction in learning ribbons. it appears below my signature.

Gene

I'll provide a brief tutorial based on what I wrote years ago of how
to work with ribbons.

I've added a little to it here.

I don't know how the organization of Windows has changed in Windows 10
but this description should allow you to look through the Windows
ribbons, or any other ribbons, and see how things are organized.

First, I'll discuss a structure found in later versions of Windows
that you need to know about-- the split button.
One thing you will see as you look around ribbons and in other places
in Windows are split buttons. A split button often allows you to see
more options than just the default action. Let's take an example.
Let's say you come across a split button that says shut down Windows.
If you press enter on that button, Windows will shut down. That is
the default action. Split buttons often show more options if you
either right arrow while on the button or down arrow. As an example,
if you are on the shut down split button, you can right arrow and a
list of options will open. the items in the list include sleep,
hibernate, restart, and others. You up or down arrow through the list
or use the short cut commands you hear announced as you move through
the list. the letter shortcuts often take actions without pressing
enter so be careful when using them, just as you are in menus.

So, let's review. You find a split button that says shut down. If you
press enter, the computer will shut down. If you right arrow, other
options may be displayed. Or if you down arrow, other options may be
displayed. A split button won't work with both methods. One method,
either right arrowing or down arrowing will do so if it can be done
with the button. Try both methods if you don't know which one might
work. If you are on a tool bar which extends across the screen from
left to right, down arrowing will open additional options. If you
think about this, it makes sense. If you are in a menu, down arrowing
will move you to the next item in the menu. So you right arrow on the
split button to cause it to display more options. In a tool bar that
extends across the screen from left to right, right arrowing will move
you to the next item in the tool bar. So you down arrow when on the
split button to cause it to display more options. But some tool bars
run up and down the screen, as menus do. And at times, you may not be
sure which way a structure extends on screen. So, as I said, if you
are not sure or don't know, try both methods of causing the split
button to display more options. Often, one of them will work. If you
open the options a split button offers and don't want to work with
them, arrow in the opposite direction to move out of them. For
example, if you right arrowed to open more options, left arrow.
Some split buttons don't do anything when you right arrow or down
arrow. In that case, open them with alt down arrow. Then tab through
the additional options. I've almost never worked in this way with
split buttons but if you want to close a split button, try alt up
arrow if you've used alt down arrow to open it.

Now, to ribbons themselves.

Regarding ribbons, much of the complaining about them is not warranted
if you understand how they work and how to use short cut commands
effectively and efficiently. and I would strongly recommend against
using the JAWS virtual menus, no matter what the JAWS training
material says about ribbons being difficult to use. the training
material is just plain wrong and using virtual menus, you will be
unnecessarily dependent on one screen-reader. There are other
disadvantages to using them which I won't go into here.

Try looking at ribbons and doing what is described below in wordpad.
Everyone with Windows 7 has Wordpad on their machine. Wordpad provides
a good environment to look at and practice working with ribbons.

The essence of working with ribbons is this:
Press alt to move to the upper ribbon.
You will probably be on an item that says home tab. Items on the upper
ribbon are announced as tabs such as home tab, view tab, etc.
To see what ribbons are available, right or left arrow repeatedly to
move through the ribbons. Move in one direction to move through all
of them, just as you would to move through all the menus.

For this demonstration, just so we are all doing the same thing, move
with the right arrow. When you get back to where you started, you can
keep right arrowing to move through the items again, if you wish. You
can move through all the items as many times as you want. Or you can
move with the left arrow whenever you want to move in the opposite
direction.

Stop on view. Then start tabbing. You will move through all items in
what is called the lower ribbon that are in the view ribbon.

In other words you tab to see the items in a ribbon once you move to
it. Tab moves you forward through the items, shift tab moves you
backword.
So tab and shift tab are used instead of up and down arrow.

Many items in the lower ribbon are buttons. Use either the space bar
or enter to activate the button. You may find a button that opens a
menu and if you press enter or the space bar, you will then be in a menu.

Each time you move to an item, you will hear the short cut command to
work with that item.
But JAWS has a bug and you often won't. To hear the short cut, use
the command JAWS key tab. If you are using the default JAWS key, it
is either insert.

Try tabbing to an item in a Wordpad ribbon and using the command
insert tab. You will hear some extraneous information. The last thing
you will hear is the short cut sequence. You can repeat the
information by repeating the command as often as you want.

Let's look at an item which is usually called the application menu.
Return to the main program window in wordpad by closing the ribbons.
You can either press escape repeatedly, if necessary, or you can press
alt once. Now, open the ribbons again with alt.
Start right arrowing until you get to the application menu.
You will hear application menu and then something like button drop
down grid. Never mind drop down grid. It's a description you don't
have to worry about. The important things are that you are on a
button and at the application menu. Press enter or the space bar to
activate the button. Activating the button opens the menu. Start down
arrowing. you will hear all the short cut commands necessary to open
an item or take an action. When you got to the menu item, you heard
alt f. When you open the menu and move through it, you will hear all
the letters announced. for example, if you down arrow to save as, you
will hear alt f a. that means that, when you are in the main program
window, you open the menu as you always did, alt f, then type a. Alt
f opens the menau and a then opens save as. Ribbon programs have one
menu and you should look through it. Many important and common
commands and interfaces such as options may be there. By options, I
mean the kind of options interface you used to find in the tools menu.

Now the we have seen the menu, let's look at the ribbons structure
some more.
To review, and add more information, as you have seen, you can move to
the ribbon interface with alt. Then right and left arrow, just as you
would move from menu to menu.
You can also move to a ribbon using alt and a letter. So, alt h takes
you to the home ribbon. Alt v takes you to the view ribbon, etc.
Once you are on the ribbon you want to work with, tab to move forward
through the items in a ribbon. Shift tab to move back through the
items. So tab and shift tab are used instead of up and down arrow.
Ribbons are divided into categories which you will hear announced as
you tab. for example, in an e-mail program, a ribbon may have a
category named respond. You may hear this announced as respond tool
bar. As you tab, you will hear commands such as reply and forward in
the respond category. When you hear a category announced, don't tab
until you hear everything spoken. You will miss the first command in
the category if you do. I'm talking about working with an unfamiliar
ribbon.
there are often many more commands and items in a ribbon than in a
menu. So memorize command sequences for items you know you will use
regularly.
As I said, there are different categories in ribbons to help organize
items. You can quickly jump from category to category in a ribbon to
help you see if there is a category you want to look through.
Move to a ribbon in Wordpad. For example, alt h for hhome or alt v
for view.
Then repeatedly issue the command control right arrow to move forward
from category to category and control left arrow to move back. When
you get to a category you want to hear the items in, start tabbing.
Of course, you can shift tab to move back.

Open a ribbon in Wordpad and tab through it to see how it is organized
by moving through it.
Then use control right arrow to move by category and tab to see what
is in a category.

Commands such as control o, control n, control s, control r, etc. are
mostly retained in programs that use ribbons, though you won't hear
them announced. If you don't already know them, you'll have to find
them in ways such as by looking at a list of keyboard commands for the
program. Such lists are often available in the help for the program.
If you already know the commands from having used an older version of
the program, most or perhaps even all of the commands you know will
work.

When I go to the weather plus check for updates I enter on yes to download the update. The next screen that comes up shows the name of the download and a button to download. If I hit enter on that download button I get a dialog box saying download cancelled. Several retries gets the same result.

Brian, the thing is Eloquence is one of the best synths on other languages
like spanish. I use espeak-ng without problem, but espeak doesn't speak a
good spanish, he is clearly not a native Spanish speaker, he is more of an
English speaker who learned to speak in Spanish and for not to be Spanish
his first language does it well, but not as a Spanish speaker. If you see
who is requesting Eloquence, many us are speakers of other languages (well,
I don't request eloquence or similar because I know it will not be
available for free, and espeak is good for my needs).
However, this has been said on several occasions in the list already, also
in other forums, and I personally think it is a sterile discussion on this
point. I only explain it because I don't think it can be characterized as
an addiction to wanting to hear your native language spoken correctly and
not with letters like "r","d","t", with a strange accent.

Regards,
mk.

On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 6:10 AM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <
bglists@...> wrote:

None of the 'real' Eloquence libraries now available are free. As I think
somebody said, Sappi 4 Via Voice is similar but not exactly Eloquence and
can still work, but a lot of people are spending their money as as a well
as the old Eloquence if you buy a package you get other voices more suited
to reading docs and this can be set up as a user profile so you can hear
more comfortable readings while still retaining the quick and dirty access
in menus etc.

There are now so many people talking about Eloquence, I've hived all these
messages off into another folder. I'm beginning to think that people might
be addicted to Eloquence, Next we will have rehab clinics to wean folk off
of it! :-)
Brian

bglists@...
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Please address personal email to:-
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----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher-Mark Gilland" <
clgilland07@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2017 11:30 PM
Subject: [nvda] Synths


I've changed the subject to better reflect. Hope that was OK.

I don't think Vocalizer is free either. Sorry.
---
Christopher Gilland
----- Original Message ----- From: mr. Chikodinaka Nickarandidum Oguledo
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2017 5:39 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Help With Eloquence


vocilelizer the nvda version or the all computer of vocolizer please
or free free free voices not the ones u pay for I don't have the money

Hi, I noticed that, depending on the text editor in use at the time, NVDA will sometimes say either "carriage return" or "Line feed" to indicate new lines. Since they seem to serve similar purposes, I wonder if there is actually a difference between the two?
Thanks.

So why is it called a pull not a push?
Seems logical to me. :-)
Brian

bglists@...
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----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrick ZAJDA via Groups.Io"
<patrick@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2017 2:47 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Github


Hi Gene,

Pull requests are code contribution from another Github repos.
You fork the NVDA git repos on your Github account, make your code
contribution then submit it by creating a pull request.

It facilitates code merging.

Patrick

Le 03/09/2017 à 15:28, Gene a écrit :

What are pull requests?

Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
<mailto:bglists@...>
*Sent:* Sunday, September 03, 2017 7:15 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] Github

I asked this some time ago, and Jamie sent me some stuff. There is now a
new
issues link and also a search field, but I've never found the search
to be
very intuitive and I suspect this is why so many duplicate issues get
filed.

Quinton sent me this also.
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues -
there is a search edit on that page you can type your query in to see if
there's an existing issue (open or closed, though note it will only show
open issues at first by default) which deals with what you are looking
for.

To post a new issue, there should be a "new issue" button on most pages.
Activating that will take you here:
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/new with the main components
being
a title edit and a "leave a comment" edit where you can describe your
issue
in detail.


However recently some guidelines are now in there for fields that prompt
you
to give useful information as well.

One thing that I do not like about it is that it does not send an
email to
you even if you are subscribed to its list, you only see others comments.
However when you reply via email, you really do need to edit off quoted
stuff as otherwise looking at the issue on line gets very confused. I
occasionally forget myself. Also, it won't send you back these emails
either.
I am not sure who came up with this rule but its bonkers if you use the
email list to know where you are, as to see your own comments you either
need to find it in your own sent folder or go to the website.
Anyway, I've had my say.
Problems? Well...
The biggest issue I had was creating the account in the first place and
getting past all the stuff that is just not relevant.


You can attach files, but thus far I've not made this work!
Brian

bglists@... <mailto:bglists@...>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@... <mailto:briang1@...>, putting
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@... <mailto:gsasner@...>>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2017 12:34 PM
Subject: [nvda] Github


I just looked at the Github NVDA part of the site. I haven't signed
up yet
but it looks easy to do so and to create a pull request, which I
assume is
what is generally referred to on this list as a ticket. But many people
may
find the page confusing. Is there a way that some sort of short help
information can be inserted after the navigation links on the page,
instructing people what to do to create what are called tickets, perhaps
also how to search for tickets and how to create an account? If tickets
are
desired from the widest variety of users, this process should be somehow
explained and done so in a place that those wishing to create tickets
will
be likely to see the explanation.

Gene

What really scares me is that ms lost the battle for action centre on antivirus notifications.

I agree you can bypass things however in an accessibility viewpoint laws asside now ms has lost its basically opened the door for people to put in their own notifications or inaccessible changes and all they need to prove is that it mucks up how things should work.

I know this may be a bit dumb especially with how we progressed but back in the day expensive that it was we had our software and equipment and the sighted had our's.

We progressed up and up till win10 and now I am not sure.

Look at symbian, look at win7 look at win xp 98 and lower, look at dos.

It used to be simple for us, and while I know going back really isn't an option with all the changes going on with tech and the sighted winning, a bit of me is screaming give up and go back to the way it used to be before you get something that will never work.

Its not rational I know that but as all these new things go on getting inaccessible and up and down and such that part is getting louder and louder.

I used to be ready for the future, now I am scared of it.




On 4/09/2017 8:59 p.m., Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:

I know I read it, but to be honest. its a concept issue. Some of use find the logic hard to actually get into our motor memory, whereas the old sort of menus worked as each was obviously the same from the logic point of view. but I'm not going to start a ribbon vs other ideas thread of annoyance here. Far more worrying are these badly named universal apps where it seems almost anything goes from no menu bars to some and with buttons dumped any old place for no good reason on the screen. Brian

bglists@...
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----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2017 6:32 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and Windows older versions


Regardless of all the doom and gloom you hear all over about ribbons, th3ey are nothing more than a different and perfectly logical way of organizing programs. Here is a tutorial I wrote to provide instruction in learning ribbons. it appears below my signature.

Gene

I'll provide a brief tutorial based on what I wrote years ago of how to work with ribbons.

I've added a little to it here.

I don't know how the organization of Windows has changed in Windows 10 but this description should allow you to look through the Windows ribbons, or any other ribbons, and see how things are organized.

First, I'll discuss a structure found in later versions of Windows that you need to know about-- the split button.
One thing you will see as you look around ribbons and in other places in Windows are split buttons. A split button often allows you to see more options than just the default action. Let's take an example.
Let's say you come across a split button that says shut down Windows. If you press enter on that button, Windows will shut down. That is the default action. Split buttons often show more options if you either right arrow while on the button or down arrow. As an example, if you are on the shut down split button, you can right arrow and a list of options will open. the items in the list include sleep, hibernate, restart, and others. You up or down arrow through the list or use the short cut commands you hear announced as you move through the list. the letter shortcuts often take actions without pressing enter so be careful when using them, just as you are in menus.

So, let's review. You find a split button that says shut down. If you press enter, the computer will shut down. If you right arrow, other options may be displayed. Or if you down arrow, other options may be displayed. A split button won't work with both methods. One method, either right arrowing or down arrowing will do so if it can be done with the button. Try both methods if you don't know which one might work. If you are on a tool bar which extends across the screen from left to right, down arrowing will open additional options. If you think about this, it makes sense. If you are in a menu, down arrowing will move you to the next item in the menu. So you right arrow on the split button to cause it to display more options. In a tool bar that extends across the screen from left to right, right arrowing will move you to the next item in the tool bar. So you down arrow when on the split button to cause it to display more options. But some tool bars run up and down the screen, as menus do. And at times, you may not be sure which way a structure extends on screen. So, as I said, if you are not sure or don't know, try both methods of causing the split button to display more options. Often, one of them will work. If you open the options a split button offers and don't want to work with them, arrow in the opposite direction to move out of them. For example, if you right arrowed to open more options, left arrow.
Some split buttons don't do anything when you right arrow or down arrow. In that case, open them with alt down arrow. Then tab through the additional options. I've almost never worked in this way with split buttons but if you want to close a split button, try alt up arrow if you've used alt down arrow to open it.

Now, to ribbons themselves.

Regarding ribbons, much of the complaining about them is not warranted if you understand how they work and how to use short cut commands effectively and efficiently. and I would strongly recommend against using the JAWS virtual menus, no matter what the JAWS training material says about ribbons being difficult to use. the training material is just plain wrong and using virtual menus, you will be unnecessarily dependent on one screen-reader. There are other disadvantages to using them which I won't go into here.

Try looking at ribbons and doing what is described below in wordpad. Everyone with Windows 7 has Wordpad on their machine. Wordpad provides a good environment to look at and practice working with ribbons.

The essence of working with ribbons is this:
Press alt to move to the upper ribbon.
You will probably be on an item that says home tab. Items on the upper ribbon are announced as tabs such as home tab, view tab, etc.
To see what ribbons are available, right or left arrow repeatedly to move through the ribbons. Move in one
direction to move through all of them, just as you would to move through all the menus.

For this demonstration, just so we are all doing the same thing, move with the right arrow. When you get back to where you started, you can keep right arrowing to move through the items again, if you wish. You can move through all the items as many times as you want. Or you can move with the left arrow whenever you want to move in the opposite direction.

Stop on view. Then start tabbing. You will move through all items in what is called the lower ribbon that are in the view ribbon.

In other words you tab to see the items in a ribbon once you move to it. Tab moves you forward through the items, shift tab moves you backword.
So tab and shift tab are used instead of up and down arrow.

Many items in the lower ribbon are buttons. Use either the space bar or enter to activate the button. You may find a button that opens a menu and if you press enter or the space bar, you will then be in a menu.

Each time you move to an item, you will hear the short cut command to work with that item.
But JAWS has a bug and you often won't. To hear the short cut, use the command JAWS key tab. If you are using the default JAWS key, it is either insert.

Try tabbing to an item in a Wordpad ribbon and using the command insert tab. You will hear some extraneous information. The last thing you will hear is the short cut sequence. You can repeat the information by repeating the command as often as you want.

Let's look at an item which is usually called the application menu. Return to the main program window in wordpad by closing the ribbons. You can either press escape repeatedly, if necessary, or you can press alt once. Now, open the ribbons again with alt.
Start right arrowing until you get to the application menu.
You will hear application menu and then something like button drop down grid. Never mind drop down grid. It's a description you don't have to worry about. The important things are that you are on a button and at the application menu. Press enter or the space bar to activate the button. Activating the button opens the menu. Start down arrowing. you will hear all the short cut commands necessary to open an item or take an action. When you got to the menu item, you heard alt f. When you open the menu and move through it, you will hear all the letters announced. for example, if you down arrow to save as, you will hear alt f a. that means that, when you are in the main program window, you open the menu as you always did, alt f, then type a. Alt f opens the menau and a then opens save as. Ribbon programs have one menu and you should look through it. Many important and common commands and interfaces such as options may be there. By options, I mean the kind of options interface you used to find in the tools menu.

Now the we have seen the menu, let's look at the ribbons structure some more.
To review, and add more information, as you have seen, you can move to the ribbon interface with alt. Then right and left arrow, just as you would move from menu to menu.
You can also move to a ribbon using alt and a letter. So, alt h takes you to the home ribbon. Alt v takes you to the view ribbon, etc. Once you are on the ribbon you want to work with, tab to move forward through the items in a ribbon. Shift tab to move back through the items. So tab and shift tab are used instead of up and down arrow.
Ribbons are divided into categories which you will hear announced as you tab. for example, in an e-mail program, a ribbon may have a category named respond. You may hear this announced as respond tool bar. As you tab, you will hear commands such as reply and forward in the respond category. When you hear a category announced, don't tab until you hear everything spoken. You will miss the first command in the category if you do. I'm talking about working with an unfamiliar ribbon.
there are often many more commands and items in a ribbon than in a menu. So memorize command sequences for items you know you will use regularly.
As I said, there are different categories in ribbons to help organize items. You can quickly jump from category to category in a ribbon to help you see if there is a category you want to look through.
Move to a ribbon in Wordpad. For example, alt h for hhome or alt v for view.
Then repeatedly issue the command control right arrow to move forward from category to category and control left arrow to move back. When you get to a category you want to hear the items in, start tabbing. Of course, you can shift tab to move back.

Open a ribbon in Wordpad and tab through it to see how it is organized by moving through it.
Then use control right arrow to move by category and tab to see what is in a category.

Commands such as control o, control n, control s, control r, etc. are mostly retained in programs
that use ribbons, though you won't hear them announced. If you don't already know them, you'll have to find them in ways such as by looking at a list of keyboard commands for the program. Such lists are often available in the help for the program. If you already know the commands from having used an older version of the program, most or perhaps even all of the commands you know will work.

I can increase the rate within ghe NVDA voice setings.  I guess the lag I am talking about is when you are at the desktop and use single letter navagation there is a lag before you get the voicing of the icon you are moving to.  For example at the desktop I hit the letter n and it moves me to the NVDA icon but the David one core voice takes longer to say NVDA versus how long it takes Access32 to say NVDA.


On 9/3/2017 5:02 PM, Gene New Zealand wrote:

Hi don


At present you can not ajust the speed through the settings in nvda to speed up the windows one core voices. from what i have read there is a update from windows which will fix this if i read it correct.


there is a work around for the moment which works.


In windows 10 in the search box i typed text to speech and then it came up with some results.

it cam up with the following result Change text-to-speech settings, System settings of which i pressed the enter key on.


When the next screen came up it defaults to my one core voice i chose. Tab to the rate and change it there just use the arrow keys to do this.


Then close it the screen i mean.


You will notice now in nvda he will be speaking quicker.


Gene nz



On 04/09/2017 08:58, Don H wrote:

Having used Window Eyes for some 20 years with decaccess32 as my syn I have been using the access

32 syn with NVDA.  I have tried the One Core  David voice but find it has some lag as compared to the access32 syn.  Of course David sounds more natural and Access32 is more robotic sounding. Is there a way to change how the one core voices perform?

--
Image NVDA certified expert
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.

Outlook 2016 and it has just been reinstalled since I reset my computer.
This has made the problem worse.

I thought this list was only for NVDA? Since that is the only screen reader
I own and use, that is why I asked on this list.
Cindy


On September 4, 2017 7:24:10 AM "Lino Morales" <linomorales001@...>
wrote:

Mozilla Thunderbird is great. If you want less bells and whistles the
built in Mail app in Windows 10 should work for you. What version of MS
Office are you running? What screen reader do you use? Maybe Office
needs to be uninstalled then reinstalled again.


On 9/3/2017 10:20 PM, slery wrote:

I am looking for a new email program (obviously needs to work with NVDA).

Must haves: work with gmail, work with multiple email accounts, open
multiple folders at the same time

Thanks for any help. Outlook keeps crashing every time I try to open a
second folder (or even just switch to a different folder within the
same window).

Cindy

Don H <lmddh50@...> wrote:

So in your words I should ignore the dam dialog box that came up when I
started NVDA that says I should go to the weather plus check for updates
under add on manager.

That's right. The original poster said that due to technical difficulties weatherplus could not self-update.

Hi,
As I noted on Win10 forum (not here) numerous times, the level of accessibility of universal apps depends on willingness from vendors to take accessibility seriously and commit to it. In other words, what matters now is attitudes, not just aptitude. Microsoft is a prime example of what happens when a company takes accessibility seriously, whereas Facebook is not (I myself have given up on accessibility of Facebook universal app; sending numerous advisories and attempts at talking to FB to take accessibility seriously didn't work). But attitudes from vendors is just part of the picture: attitudes from screen reader vendors is also important, as VFO customers are finding out the hard way these days, just as NVDA users did two years ago when support for Edge and universal apps was in infancy. As this month happens to be the second anniversary of Windows 10 App Essentials, I'll reaffirm my vow that, as long as Windows 10 ecosystem and universal apps live, I'll continue to provide new versions of this add-on (the next stable version is scheduled for tomorrow and it supports changes made to Windows Store in August via release preview ring).
By the way, apart from one or two issues, NVDA 2017.3 is ready for Windows 10 Fall Creators Update (the issues are inability to navigate emoji panel with synthesizers other than OneCore and not being able to adjust speech rate for this synthesizer just yet, both of which require using newer Windows SDK versions).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Lino Morales
Sent: Monday, September 4, 2017 4:36 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and Windows older versions

Speaking of UWP apps Joseph needs to circulate his awesome post on making them accessible in WIN 10. We haven't made any progress in my opinion in the blindness coummity contacting MS. Facebook and FB Messenger being the 2 that once were.


On 9/4/2017 4:59 AM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:

I know I read it, but to be honest. its a concept issue. Some of use
find the logic hard to actually get into our motor memory, whereas the
old sort of menus worked as each was obviously the same from the logic
point of view. but I'm not going to start a ribbon vs other ideas
thread of annoyance here. Far more worrying are these badly named
universal apps where it seems almost anything goes from no menu bars
to some and with buttons dumped any old place for no good reason on
the screen. Brian

bglists@...
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Please address personal email to:-
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----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2017 6:32 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and Windows older versions


Regardless of all the doom and gloom you hear all over about ribbons,
th3ey are nothing more than a different and perfectly logical way of
organizing programs. Here is a tutorial I wrote to provide
instruction in learning ribbons. it appears below my signature.

Gene

I'll provide a brief tutorial based on what I wrote years ago of how
to work with ribbons.

I've added a little to it here.

I don't know how the organization of Windows has changed in Windows 10
but this description should allow you to look through the Windows
ribbons, or any other ribbons, and see how things are organized.

First, I'll discuss a structure found in later versions of Windows
that you need to know about-- the split button.
One thing you will see as you look around ribbons and in other places
in Windows are split buttons. A split button often allows you to see
more options than just the default action. Let's take an example.
Let's say you come across a split button that says shut down Windows.
If you press enter on that button, Windows will shut down. That is
the default action. Split buttons often show more options if you
either right arrow while on the button or down arrow. As an example,
if you are on the shut down split button, you can right arrow and a
list of options will open. the items in the list include sleep,
hibernate, restart, and others. You up or down arrow through the list
or use the short cut commands you hear announced as you move through
the list. the letter shortcuts often take actions without pressing
enter so be careful when using them, just as you are in menus.

So, let's review. You find a split button that says shut down. If you
press enter, the computer will shut down. If you right arrow, other
options may be displayed. Or if you down arrow, other options may be
displayed. A split button won't work with both methods. One method,
either right arrowing or down arrowing will do so if it can be done
with the button. Try both methods if you don't know which one might
work. If you are on a tool bar which extends across the screen from
left to right, down arrowing will open additional options. If you
think about this, it makes sense. If you are in a menu, down arrowing
will move you to the next item in the menu. So you right arrow on the
split button to cause it to display more options. In a tool bar that
extends across the screen from left to right, right arrowing will move
you to the next item in the tool bar. So you down arrow when on the
split button to cause it to display more options. But some tool bars
run up and down the screen, as menus do. And at times, you may not be
sure which way a structure extends on screen. So, as I said, if you
are not sure or don't know, try both methods of causing the split
button to display more options. Often, one of them will work. If you
open the options a split button offers and don't want to work with
them, arrow in the opposite direction to move out of them. For
example, if you right arrowed to open more options, left arrow.
Some split buttons don't do anything when you right arrow or down
arrow. In that case, open them with alt down arrow. Then tab through
the additional options. I've almost never worked in this way with
split buttons but if you want to close a split button, try alt up
arrow if you've used alt down arrow to open it.

Now, to ribbons themselves.

Regarding ribbons, much of the complaining about them is not warranted
if you understand how they work and how to use short cut commands
effectively and efficiently. and I would strongly recommend against
using the JAWS virtual menus, no matter what the JAWS training
material says about ribbons being difficult to use. the training
material is just plain wrong and using virtual menus, you will be
unnecessarily dependent on one screen-reader. There are other
disadvantages to using them which I won't go into here.

Try looking at ribbons and doing what is described below in wordpad.
Everyone with Windows 7 has Wordpad on their machine. Wordpad provides
a good environment to look at and practice working with ribbons.

The essence of working with ribbons is this:
Press alt to move to the upper ribbon.
You will probably be on an item that says home tab. Items on the upper
ribbon are announced as tabs such as home tab, view tab, etc.
To see what ribbons are available, right or left arrow repeatedly to
move through the ribbons. Move in one direction to move through all
of them, just as you would to move through all the menus.

For this demonstration, just so we are all doing the same thing, move
with the right arrow. When you get back to where you started, you can
keep right arrowing to move through the items again, if you wish. You
can move through all the items as many times as you want. Or you can
move with the left arrow whenever you want to move in the opposite
direction.

Stop on view. Then start tabbing. You will move through all items in
what is called the lower ribbon that are in the view ribbon.

In other words you tab to see the items in a ribbon once you move to
it. Tab moves you forward through the items, shift tab moves you
backword.
So tab and shift tab are used instead of up and down arrow.

Many items in the lower ribbon are buttons. Use either the space bar
or enter to activate the button. You may find a button that opens a
menu and if you press enter or the space bar, you will then be in a menu.

Each time you move to an item, you will hear the short cut command to
work with that item.
But JAWS has a bug and you often won't. To hear the short cut, use
the command JAWS key tab. If you are using the default JAWS key, it
is either insert.

Try tabbing to an item in a Wordpad ribbon and using the command
insert tab. You will hear some extraneous information. The last thing
you will hear is the short cut sequence. You can repeat the
information by repeating the command as often as you want.

Let's look at an item which is usually called the application menu.
Return to the main program window in wordpad by closing the ribbons.
You can either press escape repeatedly, if necessary, or you can press
alt once. Now, open the ribbons again with alt.
Start right arrowing until you get to the application menu.
You will hear application menu and then something like button drop
down grid. Never mind drop down grid. It's a description you don't
have to worry about. The important things are that you are on a
button and at the application menu. Press enter or the space bar to
activate the button. Activating the button opens the menu. Start down
arrowing. you will hear all the short cut commands necessary to open
an item or take an action. When you got to the menu item, you heard
alt f. When you open the menu and move through it, you will hear all
the letters announced. for example, if you down arrow to save as, you
will hear alt f a. that means that, when you are in the main program
window, you open the menu as you always did, alt f, then type a. Alt
f opens the menau and a then opens save as. Ribbon programs have one
menu and you should look through it. Many important and common
commands and interfaces such as options may be there. By options, I
mean the kind of options interface you used to find in the tools menu.

Now the we have seen the menu, let's look at the ribbons structure
some more.
To review, and add more information, as you have seen, you can move to
the ribbon interface with alt. Then right and left arrow, just as you
would move from menu to menu.
You can also move to a ribbon using alt and a letter. So, alt h takes
you to the home ribbon. Alt v takes you to the view ribbon, etc.
Once you are on the ribbon you want to work with, tab to move forward
through the items in a ribbon. Shift tab to move back through the
items. So tab and shift tab are used instead of up and down arrow.
Ribbons are divided into categories which you will hear announced as
you tab. for example, in an e-mail program, a ribbon may have a
category named respond. You may hear this announced as respond tool
bar. As you tab, you will hear commands such as reply and forward in
the respond category. When you hear a category announced, don't tab
until you hear everything spoken. You will miss the first command in
the category if you do. I'm talking about working with an unfamiliar
ribbon.
there are often many more commands and items in a ribbon than in a
menu. So memorize command sequences for items you know you will use
regularly.
As I said, there are different categories in ribbons to help organize
items. You can quickly jump from category to category in a ribbon to
help you see if there is a category you want to look through.
Move to a ribbon in Wordpad. For example, alt h for hhome or alt v
for view.
Then repeatedly issue the command control right arrow to move forward
from category to category and control left arrow to move back. When
you get to a category you want to hear the items in, start tabbing.
Of course, you can shift tab to move back.

Open a ribbon in Wordpad and tab through it to see how it is organized
by moving through it.
Then use control right arrow to move by category and tab to see what
is in a category.

Commands such as control o, control n, control s, control r, etc. are
mostly retained in programs that use ribbons, though you won't hear
them announced. If you don't already know them, you'll have to find
them in ways such as by looking at a list of keyboard commands for the
program. Such lists are often available in the help for the program.
If you already know the commands from having used an older version of
the program, most or perhaps even all of the commands you know will
work.