Date   

Re: [WebAIM] New WebAIM Screen Reader User Survey

 

hello.
i agree that survey owners should include all operating systems and
screen readers.
but for me that only use nvda, i try to participate it today.
God bless you all!

On 10/4/17, Lino Morales <linomorales001@...> wrote:
Um duh Travis! Who in the hell useds Linux? Um not me. Its a given dude.
Not a lot of blind folks are uber geeks like yourself. I've never used
said OS and don't plan on it. Apple themselves put up a burier for teh
cost of their damn product the iMacc. Do you think most of us have a
thousand dollars laying around for a Mac with VO?


On 10/2/2017 9:17 PM, Travis Siegel wrote:

Once again, the survey continues to ignore screen readers for other
operating systems.  It's nice they actually mention more than one for
android, but each time I take this survey, I've commented that orca
and other linux screen readers should be included (or at least given
room to be typed in), and it never happens.  Of course, now they're
not even bothering to ask what screen readers you use, just the one
you use most often.  Most often (these days) I use NVDA, but I still
use voice over, (both on IOS, which they did cover, and on OSX), which
again, they did cover, but I also use speakup, orca, pispeak, and
(once in a great while) a dos screen reader.  None of these options
are even pretended at in this survey.  This survey has become a list
of the big three, and who uses the most of each one, and no mention or
care is given to additional resources.  If they're trying to find out
what screen readers folks are using altogether, (not just the big
three) then they need to redesign the survey to allow folks to at
least mention that they use other operating systems, even if it isn't
their primary one. Last time they offered this survey in 2015, I
couldn't fill it out, because I was using a raspberry pi as my main
system, and they didn't give me an option to indicate such anywhere on
the survey, only in the comments at the end, which is extremely poor
survey design.  I nice question with what screen readers do yo use
regularly (check all that apply) would have worked nicely, then have a
checkbox for other with a place to type in your other choice.  This
would seem fundamental to me, but these folks have gotten it wrong for
(apparently) 7 survey cycles. Apparently, they aren't studying what
screen readers are used in general, just how popular a select few of
them are, and that doesn't serve any purpose except to slant the
numbers in favor of those select few options.  I don't think I'll be
filling out this survey anymore.


On 9/29/2017 3:19 PM, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote:
Hello,
Here is the link to one of the more important screen reader surveys.
When people refference screen reader usage and tendencies, they often
use the results of this survey.
Please fill this out, it really helps developers.
The questions are really easy and relevant.
Thank you,

Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: *Jared Smith* <jared@... <mailto:jared@...>>
Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2017 at 7:53 AM
Subject: [WebAIM] New WebAIM Screen Reader User Survey
To: WebAIM Discussion List <webaim-forum@...
<mailto:webaim-forum@...>>


https://webaim.org/projects/screenreadersurvey7/
<https://webaim.org/projects/screenreadersurvey7/>

Please share this URL to any and all screen reader users.

Thanks,

Jared Smith
WebAIM.org
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<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the entire creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration from prophet Mohammad is:
indeed, imam husayn is the beacon of guidance and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
www.al-islam.org


Re: Owner's Note: Jeff's Dream #adminnotice

 

Well in that case, the japanese game translater addon at blindaudiogames.com or at least its webpage should be linked.

You do need a free account for security, the author that makes it has to pay google to use the translation function but his hope is that  eventually entire games translations will be stored on his server.

On 4/10/2017 6:58 p.m., Nimer Jaber wrote:
Hello,

After exchanging some messages with other fellow moderators, I have
modified my stance on the Jeff's Dream website. I encourage users to look
for add-ons at the official add-on site first. If you are unable to find
it, you awe welcome to look for add-ons in other locations, and if you know
an add-on that would help a user and they are asking questions, you may
share that add-on with the community, even if it is on that site. What may
not be shared, however, is any illegal content, including the Eloquence
synthesizer or any other paid voice package if it was obtained illegally
without payment. So far as I am aware, and I am always learning, but there
is no legal way to share or obtain Eloquence for free through an add-on, so
any discussion of that will be stopped immediately, with members who share
illegal software receiving a very quick, very permanent ban with no
recourse of appeal. I would also urge users to pay attention to the source
from which they download add-ons, and be aware of any security
implications. Nobody on this list can or will be held responsible as a
result of downloading illegal content or content which contains security
threats.

If you have any further questions on this topic, please send your comments
and suggestions, as always, to nvda+owner@nvda.groups.io

thanks.


Re: NVDA Country Subgroups

 

hello i dont agree with local groups for many reasons.
if for example we only participate in our language subgroup farsi, we
miss the informations and knowledge which the people provide for
example in english group etc.
all people have only access to there local group in there own language
and miss other useful informations in other groups.
moreover, one group (our current group) is the best option, because:
1- we can benefit of knowledge and help of all people who use nvda in
the world, can find answer faster and easier.
2- english is an international language that most people can
understand and communicate with each other around the world.
3- the informations and help that we provide for each other, are
archived and anyone can access and benefit.
4- we can help more people and be useful for more people in the world
for two reasons. first the group which all people can join and help
each other,
and second the archive which can be useful for even the people who did
not join in the group, because they can search in the google and find
answer for there problems!
hope that help, God bless you all!

On 10/4/17, Florian Ionașcu <florianionascu@...> wrote:
Hello Vlad and Adriani.
I'm also Romanian, I live in Buzău.
--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the entire creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration from prophet Mohammad is:
indeed, imam husayn is the beacon of guidance and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
www.al-islam.org


Owner's Note: Jeff's Dream #adminnotice

Nimer Jaber
 

Hello,

After exchanging some messages with other fellow moderators, I have modified my stance on the Jeff's Dream website. I encourage users to look for add-ons at the official add-on site first. If you are unable to find it, you awe welcome to look for add-ons in other locations, and if you know an add-on that would help a user and they are asking questions, you may share that add-on with the community, even if it is on that site. What may not be shared, however, is any illegal content, including the Eloquence synthesizer or any other paid voice package if it was obtained illegally without payment. So far as I am aware, and I am always learning, but there is no legal way to share or obtain Eloquence for free through an add-on, so any discussion of that will be stopped immediately, with members who share illegal software receiving a very quick, very permanent ban with no recourse of appeal.  I would also urge users to pay attention to the source from which they download add-ons, and be aware of any security implications. Nobody on this list can or will be held responsible as a result of downloading illegal content or content which contains security threats.

If you have any further questions on this topic, please send your comments and suggestions, as always, to nvda+owner@nvda.groups.io

thanks.
--
Cordially,

Nimer Jaber

My mission is to bring love and peace to everyone around me with all tools available to me.
My core values are integrity, innovation, loyalty, excellence, and 100% personal responsibility.

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats. However, security of your machine is
up to you. Thanks.

Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for windows XP
and above, please click here:
http://www.nvda-project.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (218-606-0475) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly. Thank
you, and have a great day!


Re: Using skype app on Windows 10 with NVDA, any tips?

 

hi.
do you mean skype for business?
if so, nvda 17.3 and later, have special support for skype for business.
i am not familiar with skype for business, but i read in whats new
about supporting of nvda for skype.

• NVDA now automatically reports notifications in Skype for Business
Desktop, such as when someone starts a conversation with you. (#7281)

• NVDA now automatically reports incoming chat messages while in a
Skype for Business conversation. (#7286)

hope that help, God bless you.

On 10/4/17, John Isige <gwynn@...> wrote:
Hi all. I'm not actually new to the list, I used to be on the old list
as John Schucker, but I went and got married and changed my last name.


Anyway, my question is about using skype on Windows 10, naturally. Since
I have a laptop, I uninstalled skype for desktop to try out the new
skype, since NVDA with Win 10 app essentials reads it. I can do most
things I think, but was wondering if anybody had any tips or answers to
a few questions.


1. Does it start when Windows starts automatically? I see no setting.


2. Speaking of settings, are there settings, and if so, how do you
access settings for the app?


3. How do you get notifications to stick around? I'm pretty sure I have
mine set to display for 30 seconds, but when I get one, and I try to
switch windows to see it, I see no other windows. I think I'd like them
to stick around until I close them so that I can see if new messages
have come in if I'm away from my computer. Or is there a better way to
check that?


4. Skype doesn't minimize to the system tray when you minimize it, is
there a way to make it do that? I don't feel like having a window open
all the time just in case somebody sends me a message.


5. Does it not do sounds anymore? I hear no sound if I send a message,
for example.


I think I had another question or two but I can't remember, and these
seem more than enough to start with. Basically this is an experiment for
me, so I'm curious to know if anybody's using the app version, I assume
it's skype preview? Once I uninstalled "skype for desktop" I just had
skype. I haven't tried calling anybody or adding people to calls or
anything like that. So I'd be very interested in tips on switching from
desktop to whatever's in Win 10, if anybody's done it.




--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the entire creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration from prophet Mohammad is:
indeed, imam husayn is the beacon of guidance and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
www.al-islam.org


Re: NVDA Country Subgroups

 

Hello Vlad and Adriani.
I'm also Romanian, I live in Buzău.


Re: Owner's Notes, Please Read Updated

 

hi nimer.
thanks so much for your great post.
i agree that we should respect each other, our comunity, etc.
i only love nvda, but i understand that i should do my best for
maintaining the reputation of my best program which i love very much
and is an extremely great revolution in my life!
i sincerely admire your work, pray for you every day and request
divine infinite blessings and mercy for you!

On 10/4/17, Armando Maldonado <armando.maldonado0767@...> wrote:
Yep I agree. I am slowly embracing NVDA and regardless of our preferences,
we shall be respectful towards one another. Nimer did hit it on the money,
as our messages we post reflects our image as a whole. Great post nimer!

Armando





From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Nimer
Jaber
Sent: Tuesday, October 3, 2017 6:37 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Owner's Notes, Please Read Updated



Sorry, I pressed send too early...



Hello everyone,
I come to you with a couple of things, and I hope you will read this in its
entirety. If you have any questions, please submit them to
nvda+owner@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda%2Bowner@nvda.groups.io> and I will
be happy to help you, as will Gene.
First, all of us, every single person, represents ourselves in each post we
choose to write publicly. We choose how we are portrayed, and the image we
want others to see. In that same light, if we choose to participate in a
community of members, we represent that community to the outside world,
particularly as all messages are viewable publicly and are archived fo,r all
to read at a time of their choosing. As members of the NVDA community, we
represent not only ourselves, but also NVAccess, and the blindness community
as a whole. Whether we choose to or not, this is how it is.
I write all of that to say that each message you write should be written
with care and attention to this fact. It is not acceptable to write messages
disparaging the VFO group or any other competitor by calling them by
offensive names, or in any way bashing other products or manufacturers.
Whether you or I or anyone else likes JAWS is irrelevant to this list, and
moreover writing about JAWS and calling it by names other than what it is
will not be permitted.
Second, the topic of this list is NVDA. We all are here to learn from one
another, to help one another, and to participate in the NVDA community. The
topic is NVDA, and talking about how good JAWS is or how bad it is does not
relate to NVDA. I have been pretty lenient in allowing some off-topic posts
as I believe the list, by in large, self-moderates, and because some debate
is healthy, and because the conversations on here, whether they relate to
NVDA or not, can be helpful to list members, so long as it does not detract
from the purpose of the list, and it does not attack other companies, or
their products, and it remains respectful of all list members. to that end,
how good or bad any competitor is not relevant to this list... it definitely
is not relevant and will not be permitted with associated name calling.
Please, show respect of each other, NVAccess, the wider NVDA community, the
blindness community, and any competitor to NVAccess.

Now, let me be extra clear. Any member bashing JAWS by calling it by other
names, anyone who does this with any NVAccess competitor, and anyone who
shows disregard and harms the reputation of NVAccess and this community
continually will face no less than a ten-day posting ban, possibly longer.
The second offense will result in a permanent posting ban. I do not take
this step lightly. I will most likely invite you to an off-list chat first,
but this is something that will be taken seriously.

Finally, posting about the jeffsdream site or whatever it is, and posting
about illegal text-to-speech engines is very strictly prohibited. If I see a
thread where this takes place, or something like this is brought to my
attention, it will receive an immediate permanent ban. no illegal software
of any kind will be discussed on this list. I am one person, and if you read
this message and see a thread where this occurs, please notify me
immediately by sending a message to nvda+owner@nvda.groups.io and I or Gene
will immediately lock the thread, and ban the member permanently. I do not
wish to say anymore about this.

Nimer Jaber, NVDA Community List Owner

--

Cordially,

Nimer Jaber

My mission is to bring love and peace to everyone around me with all tools
available to me.
My core values are integrity, innovation, loyalty, excellence, and 100%
personal responsibility.



The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats. However, security of your machine is
up to you. Thanks.

Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for windows XP
and above, please click here:
http://www.nvda-project.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at
(218-606-0475) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly. Thank
you, and have a great day!



--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the entire creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration from prophet Mohammad is:
indeed, imam husayn is the beacon of guidance and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
www.al-islam.org


Re: windows 10 ocr?

 

Hello Matias!

This is a setting for changing the language. Go in NVDA menu, Preferences, Windows 10 OCR and press enter. A dialog with a combo box and a button will be displayed. The combo box lets you choose the language you want for OCR, for example Danish. Choose it and press OK. To extract a text from a picture, press Windows+R.
If you still have questions, please ask.
Cheers,
Florian

 

 

 

Trimis din Mail pentru Windows 10

 

De la: mattias
Trimis: marți, 3 octombrie 2017 20:29
Către: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subiect: [nvda] windows 10 ocr?

 

I see a menu value in NVDA settings menu

Windows 10 ocr

? how to use?

 

Skickades från E-post för Windows 10

 


Using skype app on Windows 10 with NVDA, any tips?

John Isige
 

Hi all. I'm not actually new to the list, I used to be on the old list as John Schucker, but I went and got married and changed my last name.


Anyway, my question is about using skype on Windows 10, naturally. Since I have a laptop, I uninstalled skype for desktop to try out the new skype, since NVDA with Win 10 app essentials reads it. I can do most things I think, but was wondering if anybody had any tips or answers to a few questions.


1. Does it start when Windows starts automatically? I see no setting.


2. Speaking of settings, are there settings, and if so, how do you access settings for the app?


3. How do you get notifications to stick around? I'm pretty sure I have mine set to display for 30 seconds, but when I get one, and I try to switch windows to see it, I see no other windows. I think I'd like them to stick around until I close them so that I can see if new messages have come in if I'm away from my computer. Or is there a better way to check that?


4. Skype doesn't minimize to the system tray when you minimize it, is there a way to make it do that? I don't feel like having a window open all the time just in case somebody sends me a message.


5. Does it not do sounds anymore? I hear no sound if I send a message, for example.


I think I had another question or two but I can't remember, and these seem more than enough to start with. Basically this is an experiment for me, so I'm curious to know if anybody's using the app version, I assume it's skype preview? Once I uninstalled "skype for desktop" I just had skype. I haven't tried calling anybody or adding people to calls or anything like that. So I'd be very interested in tips on switching from desktop to whatever's in Win 10, if anybody's done it.


Re: Braille, How Many Use It?

slery <slerythema@...>
 

Technology is making Braille more accessible to people.
Cindy


On October 3, 2017 6:53:14 PM "Lawrence Stoler" <lstoler99@...>
wrote:

Hi,


I agree, Brian.


  While I don't think the technology we're used to using i.e. the
Internet will go down tomorrow, it's important we have access to and
know how to use as many different things as possible including braille.


Blind people should know how to use grade II braille.  Many of us have
taken it for granted for a long time and it would be a shame to see it
disappear just because in the minds of some, not as many read or write
braille as was the case years ago.


Technology is great.  It has helped us in many ways but just because
braille isn't read by as many as was the case a long time ago doesn't
mean it's out of date and therefore shouldn't exist.


Larry





Re: WebAim Screen Reader User Survey #7: Getting The Word Out About NVDA

Randy Barnett <randy@...>
 

Jaws has gone down in price over the years. Even more if you figure in inflation. It has not gone up at all. Nor is it likely too. I am not a big fan of VFO and criticize it often but they are like any other specialized software. Have you ever price CAD, Audio design, CNC mapping  and other similar software? they far exceed the cost of Jaws. Do I want cheaper Jaws? Of course who wants to pay more for anything! Dont forget Jaws was providing access long before anyone else and it was very good access at that. It has taken over 20years for someone to provide a no cost alternative for the PC.
On 10/3/2017 7:58 PM, Gene wrote:
It should be pointed out that System Access isn't at all equivalent to JAWS or Window-eyes.  It cost less because it was much less capable and didn't have to work with nearly as many programs.  And it was often purchased, not as a standalone product, but with the SAM Network.  I don't know if I have the name just right.  But it could be purchased either alone or as an integrated product and I wouldn't be surprised if a lot or most purchasers purchased the whole package, which may have further led to lowering costs.  Agencies wouldn't have purchased it in general because their thrust was employment and System Access wasn't intended as an employment product. 
 
It was intended to give Internet Access, access to certain e-mail programs and to simple word processing.  It cost about half as much as JAWS and Window-eyes and it was perhaps one-third as powerful. 
 
Around 2000, whoever owned JAWS at that time attempted to address the affordability problem by making a product, Connect Outloud.  I believe you could buy it and it also came, bundled for free with Openbook.  What I heard when it was discontinued after perhaps two or three years was that there wasn't enough demand to justify continuing it.
 
It provided Internet access, access to Winamp, Outlook Express, Wordpad, and it may have provided access to one or two other programs. 
 
I'm not sure why it wasn't popular at the time, given the number of home users who didn't need a powerful screen-reader and the price of JAWS and Window-eyes and, as I recall, it was before System Access.  But those who insist on viewing whoever owns JAWS throughout its history as predators, perhaps they should consider this information. 
 
As far as whether HJAWs developers do enough work to justify the price currently, I don't know. 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 6:08 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] WebAim Screen Reader User Survey #7: Getting The Word Out About NVDA

Great post Eric. I wasn't around in the 70's or didn't know jack horse maneur about AT. Viva la NVDA!


On 10/2/2017 5:50 PM, erik burggraaf wrote:

Lots of for proffit companies made free or low cost screen readers.  Serotek for one.  Apple for another.  I'd say both companies were successful to one degree or another.  So, why didn't we see governments lining up to pay for system access?  Well, to a lesser extent some did, but if screen readers cost less, then the funding becomes less and the portfoleos of nondisabled people making big money from accessibility legislation shrink.  We certainly don't want that.  But even at that, system access and the system access network lasted for a very long time, largely on consumer driven support.

NVDA didn't succeed because it was not for proffit.  It succeded because of the dedication of the people who started it, and the following those founders were able to inspire.  It's sustainable because of the people who work on it.  The fact that it is non for proffit gives it certain advantages such as the fact that it can't be subsumed by a for proffit.  Lots of free windows screen readers entered and left the market in the past 10 years.  NVDA is the only one to thrive, much less survive, and it's because of the talendt, and the management.

Then again, the fact that NVDA itself is non for proffit hasn't prevented the organization from accepting grants and sponsorships from for proffit companies, and whatever I may think of those companies individually, the output from those grants contributed to the general effectiveness of NVDA, which lead to more adoption which lead to donation revinue, which lead to more improvements until we have the body of work which now is viable enough to stand up to a commercial product in the vast majority of situations.

So, we'll have to agree to disagree on this.  I've heard all the arguments for nearly as long as you have.  I'll allow there was a time when they may have made sense to one degree or another.  Certainly the first opticon and kurzweil reading machine costed enormously more in terms of research and development than say the knfb reader mobile app.  In fact, vast commercial uses for scanning, ocr, text to speech, dictation, and other technologies developed for disability communities are prevailant and highly intergrated into modern society.  Accessibility legislation is between 25 and 50 years old.  Commercial standards for developing things to be accessible are well established and supported by legislation.  Time and talent still cost money, but we stand on the shoulders of giants.  It's not what it was in the late 70's and early 80's.  Completely different situation.

Best,

Erik

On October 2, 2017 5:25:39 PM "Gene" <gsasner@...> wrote:

That is not correct and I've seen that argument many times.  JAWS is expensive because it is a specialized product with a tiny market.  If Windows had the number of users JAWS has, it would be  exorbitantly expensive as well.  It's mass production with enormous customer bases that makes most manufactured products we use inexpensive.  You can argue about whether institutions could cause the price of JAWS to be lower by negotiating, I don't know if the owners of JAWS charge more than they need to to make a product.  But anyone on this list who purchases or has purchased a sophisticated computer program that sells to a very small audience will confirm that such products are very expensive.  Institutions may be bureaucratic but they aren't fools.  Entrepreneurs are creative and inventive.  If it were possible to have a screen-reader with the power and sophistication of JAWS for significantly less, someone would have entered the market at a cheaper price.  They've had more than two decades to do so in the case of Windows screen-readers.  Where are they, or even one?
 
The only way a powerful screen-reader has been developed that is within the reach of a lot of blind people is to completely work outside of the for profit model.  NVDA is free because it is not a for profit product and relies on people working for about minimum wage, grants, and volunteers to develop and create add ons.  Which proves my point.  Someone else did fill the need for a screen-reader for people who can't afford a for profit screen--reader but it was outside of the for profit model.  Entrepreneurs are creative and motivated enough that, as I said, if a for profit screen-reader could be developed  for a significantly cheaper price, it would have been long ago.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2017 4:03 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] WebAim Screen Reader User Survey #7: Getting The Word Out About NVDA

Accessibility laws change the game.  The market for jaws is different from the market of most other products.  The primary target market doesn't actually use the product.  The reason commercial screen readers are sustainable is that governments in developed countrys have legislated that the government must accept the financial cost of communication aids for people with print disabilities as a means of leveling the playing field.  That is why the cost of the tecchnologies has always been out of reach for most blind consumers, and very little to do with the development cost and comparitive small size of the market as most commercial access technologists claim. 

So, there's no evidence to suggest that vfo or any company is planning to jack up prices even higher than they already are, but there are legislative hooks that might allow them to if they wanted.

I really think though that they are battoning down and preparing to ride out the end times with what they have.  The consolidation has pretty much taken place.  A few straglers haven't bought in or bowed out, but they have unique markets of their own.

The government funding that constitutes the primary support for products like jaws is on the severe decline as the use cases for the products over cheeper less specialized alternatives growes less and less by the day.  If the size of the market dictated the price as they always claimed, then considering the dwindling share of the market controlled by commercial AT, it makes sense that the price would go up, especially in the case of VFO's new exclusivity agreements in geographic regions that were either not controlled or controlled by companies that are no more.  The odd thing is, with NVDA distributed free as a noncommercial product, I doubt it falls under the commercial exclusivity agreements anyhow. 

Best,

Erik

On October 2, 2017 4:24:22 PM "Gene" <gsasner@...> wrote:

Why would the owners of JAWS commit suicide or strongly encourage purchasers not to use their product by doing something ridiculous, as you suggest?  They won't.  I don't know if they will try different prices as time goes on to get the most profit from the most or optimum number of sales, but that is different from behaving irrationally.  Is this part of the JAWS is greedy and can charge anything it wants argument?  It doesn't matter in the context of this argument, that I've heard for two decades with no meaningful proof given, whether JAWS is greedy or not.  What matters is that JAWS doesn't exist in a vacuum.  It may charge what the market will bear but it still operates in a market.  If institutions are willing to pay a price, JAWS may decide to charge it.  But that doesn't mean that institutions are irrational.  They aren't going to accept a thousand percent price rise of a product just because JAWS owners decide to try to charge it. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2017 3:00 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] WebAim Screen Reader User Survey #7: Getting The Word Out About NVDA

I totally agree with you Erick. The education institutions that deliver equipment to students in Vancouver and around BC and here in Victoria haven’t really embraced NVDA but I can see them embracing NVDA sooner rather than later. Remember, FS always saw its main competition, Window-Eyes as a threat. Since the main competition is now gone, , eventually VFO could raise the price of JAWS a lot higher, say, to $10000 or so, and that would force educational institutions to go with NVDA.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of erik burggraaf
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2017 10:12 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] WebAim Screen Reader User Survey #7: Getting The Word Out About NVDA

 

The sample size is very small in these surveys,  but they definitely show the paradigm shift and I won't be surprised at all to see mobile, mac voiceover, and nvda useage up, and jaws useage down.  Window-eyes use should fall right off the charts since the product is discontinued.  This will help slow the skid of jaws, but I think at least as many window-eyes switchers made it to NVDA as to jaws, despite the fact that jaws 18 was a free upgrade for Many window-eyes users.

Since the new paradigm puts the blind more or less on an equal playing field, and social, legal and economic trends all support moving in that direction it shouldn't be too surprising that blind users want it more and more.  I have thought for years that 2021 is about the final stopping point for old paradigm designs, particularly the personal computer, but I can see a lot of tradition going by the board by then.  This is all good for us, and it's nice to have something concreet to demonstrate the trend we can all see happening around us.

Have fun,

Erik

On October 2, 2017 12:57:37 AM "Sarah k Alawami" <marrie12@...> wrote:

Wow, interesting. I'm not surprised. I wonder what we'll see this year now that a lot of us are switching to nvda and or android and or voiceover.

 

Take care



On Oct 1, 2017, at 9:34 PM, Gene New Zealand <hurrikennyandopo@...> wrote:

 

hi Bhavya

 

I have been following the surveys after they  survey  has finished.

 

I have also been noticing that the number of jaws users have been dropping along with a few of the commercial screen users and magnifiers etc.

 

Also the use of mobile units starting to rise as in the use of android and apple devices that can go portable.

 

For me mostly home use is nvda 100 percent of the time and if mobile a android device.

 

Gene nz

 

 

On 10/1/2017 2:20 AM, Bhavya shah wrote:

Dear all,
Since almost a decade, WebAim, a non-profit web
accessibility
consultancy organisation, has been conducting an
annual (sometimes
biennial) survey, which, as its name implies, attempts
to gather
statistics
about the usage share of different screen
readers,
technology
(particularly Internet) accessibility trends, etc. so as
to
aid analysts,
researchers, accessibility consultants,
sighted
developers,
and mainstream companies to get a quantified picture
of
the state of the
AT industry.
While
this survey features participation from varied
geographies,
NVDA’s
user base, at least in my personal view, has always
been
understated.
While 8% respondents of the first December 2008
WebAim
survey
reported to be NVDA users, this figure has only increased
to
14% of
respondents in its 2015 counterpart claiming to use NVDA
as
their primary
screen reader and 41% using it commonly, a usage
share
substantially
lower than NVDA’s commercial and more expensive
screen
reading
alternatives.
I
think it would be a great way of playing our tiny part in
getting
the word out
about NVDA’s viability and competency  if all
NVDA
community
members, users, testers and other related
parties,
particularly from second and third world developing
regions which
often
remain silent for such surveys but where free and open
source
NVDA makes a
prominent impact, take this survey and contribute
to
letting the world
know about the size and standing of the NVDA
user
base.
The URL of said survey is  https://webaim.org/projects/screenreadersurvey7/
.
It took me about ten minutes to fill this survey and
the form was
extremely accessible. Not only from an NVDA angle, but
filling such
surveys
always brings out useful and reflective data, which, in
turn,
betters AT as
a whole. Therefore, I urge everyone to take some
time
out for this
survey so that we can make the data truly reflective
of
the
actualities.
Thanks.
P.S. I am in no way affiliated to WebAim nor is my
intention to merely
promote this survey.
 

 

--

Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.

 



-- 
Sincereley: Randy Barnett
Owner of Soundtique.
707-502-5575
1897 SE Dr.
Grants Pass, Or. 97526


Re: WebAim Screen Reader User Survey #7: Getting The Word Out About NVDA

Gene
 

It should be pointed out that System Access isn't at all equivalent to JAWS or Window-eyes.  It cost less because it was much less capable and didn't have to work with nearly as many programs.  And it was often purchased, not as a standalone product, but with the SAM Network.  I don't know if I have the name just right.  But it could be purchased either alone or as an integrated product and I wouldn't be surprised if a lot or most purchasers purchased the whole package, which may have further led to lowering costs.  Agencies wouldn't have purchased it in general because their thrust was employment and System Access wasn't intended as an employment product. 
 
It was intended to give Internet Access, access to certain e-mail programs and to simple word processing.  It cost about half as much as JAWS and Window-eyes and it was perhaps one-third as powerful. 
 
Around 2000, whoever owned JAWS at that time attempted to address the affordability problem by making a product, Connect Outloud.  I believe you could buy it and it also came, bundled for free with Openbook.  What I heard when it was discontinued after perhaps two or three years was that there wasn't enough demand to justify continuing it.
 
It provided Internet access, access to Winamp, Outlook Express, Wordpad, and it may have provided access to one or two other programs. 
 
I'm not sure why it wasn't popular at the time, given the number of home users who didn't need a powerful screen-reader and the price of JAWS and Window-eyes and, as I recall, it was before System Access.  But those who insist on viewing whoever owns JAWS throughout its history as predators, perhaps they should consider this information. 
 
As far as whether HJAWs developers do enough work to justify the price currently, I don't know. 

Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 6:08 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] WebAim Screen Reader User Survey #7: Getting The Word Out About NVDA

Great post Eric. I wasn't around in the 70's or didn't know jack horse maneur about AT. Viva la NVDA!


On 10/2/2017 5:50 PM, erik burggraaf wrote:

Lots of for proffit companies made free or low cost screen readers.  Serotek for one.  Apple for another.  I'd say both companies were successful to one degree or another.  So, why didn't we see governments lining up to pay for system access?  Well, to a lesser extent some did, but if screen readers cost less, then the funding becomes less and the portfoleos of nondisabled people making big money from accessibility legislation shrink.  We certainly don't want that.  But even at that, system access and the system access network lasted for a very long time, largely on consumer driven support.

NVDA didn't succeed because it was not for proffit.  It succeded because of the dedication of the people who started it, and the following those founders were able to inspire.  It's sustainable because of the people who work on it.  The fact that it is non for proffit gives it certain advantages such as the fact that it can't be subsumed by a for proffit.  Lots of free windows screen readers entered and left the market in the past 10 years.  NVDA is the only one to thrive, much less survive, and it's because of the talendt, and the management.

Then again, the fact that NVDA itself is non for proffit hasn't prevented the organization from accepting grants and sponsorships from for proffit companies, and whatever I may think of those companies individually, the output from those grants contributed to the general effectiveness of NVDA, which lead to more adoption which lead to donation revinue, which lead to more improvements until we have the body of work which now is viable enough to stand up to a commercial product in the vast majority of situations.

So, we'll have to agree to disagree on this.  I've heard all the arguments for nearly as long as you have.  I'll allow there was a time when they may have made sense to one degree or another.  Certainly the first opticon and kurzweil reading machine costed enormously more in terms of research and development than say the knfb reader mobile app.  In fact, vast commercial uses for scanning, ocr, text to speech, dictation, and other technologies developed for disability communities are prevailant and highly intergrated into modern society.  Accessibility legislation is between 25 and 50 years old.  Commercial standards for developing things to be accessible are well established and supported by legislation.  Time and talent still cost money, but we stand on the shoulders of giants.  It's not what it was in the late 70's and early 80's.  Completely different situation.

Best,

Erik

On October 2, 2017 5:25:39 PM "Gene" <gsasner@...> wrote:

That is not correct and I've seen that argument many times.  JAWS is expensive because it is a specialized product with a tiny market.  If Windows had the number of users JAWS has, it would be  exorbitantly expensive as well.  It's mass production with enormous customer bases that makes most manufactured products we use inexpensive.  You can argue about whether institutions could cause the price of JAWS to be lower by negotiating, I don't know if the owners of JAWS charge more than they need to to make a product.  But anyone on this list who purchases or has purchased a sophisticated computer program that sells to a very small audience will confirm that such products are very expensive.  Institutions may be bureaucratic but they aren't fools.  Entrepreneurs are creative and inventive.  If it were possible to have a screen-reader with the power and sophistication of JAWS for significantly less, someone would have entered the market at a cheaper price.  They've had more than two decades to do so in the case of Windows screen-readers.  Where are they, or even one?
 
The only way a powerful screen-reader has been developed that is within the reach of a lot of blind people is to completely work outside of the for profit model.  NVDA is free because it is not a for profit product and relies on people working for about minimum wage, grants, and volunteers to develop and create add ons.  Which proves my point.  Someone else did fill the need for a screen-reader for people who can't afford a for profit screen--reader but it was outside of the for profit model.  Entrepreneurs are creative and motivated enough that, as I said, if a for profit screen-reader could be developed  for a significantly cheaper price, it would have been long ago.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2017 4:03 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] WebAim Screen Reader User Survey #7: Getting The Word Out About NVDA

Accessibility laws change the game.  The market for jaws is different from the market of most other products.  The primary target market doesn't actually use the product.  The reason commercial screen readers are sustainable is that governments in developed countrys have legislated that the government must accept the financial cost of communication aids for people with print disabilities as a means of leveling the playing field.  That is why the cost of the tecchnologies has always been out of reach for most blind consumers, and very little to do with the development cost and comparitive small size of the market as most commercial access technologists claim. 

So, there's no evidence to suggest that vfo or any company is planning to jack up prices even higher than they already are, but there are legislative hooks that might allow them to if they wanted.

I really think though that they are battoning down and preparing to ride out the end times with what they have.  The consolidation has pretty much taken place.  A few straglers haven't bought in or bowed out, but they have unique markets of their own.

The government funding that constitutes the primary support for products like jaws is on the severe decline as the use cases for the products over cheeper less specialized alternatives growes less and less by the day.  If the size of the market dictated the price as they always claimed, then considering the dwindling share of the market controlled by commercial AT, it makes sense that the price would go up, especially in the case of VFO's new exclusivity agreements in geographic regions that were either not controlled or controlled by companies that are no more.  The odd thing is, with NVDA distributed free as a noncommercial product, I doubt it falls under the commercial exclusivity agreements anyhow. 

Best,

Erik

On October 2, 2017 4:24:22 PM "Gene" <gsasner@...> wrote:

Why would the owners of JAWS commit suicide or strongly encourage purchasers not to use their product by doing something ridiculous, as you suggest?  They won't.  I don't know if they will try different prices as time goes on to get the most profit from the most or optimum number of sales, but that is different from behaving irrationally.  Is this part of the JAWS is greedy and can charge anything it wants argument?  It doesn't matter in the context of this argument, that I've heard for two decades with no meaningful proof given, whether JAWS is greedy or not.  What matters is that JAWS doesn't exist in a vacuum.  It may charge what the market will bear but it still operates in a market.  If institutions are willing to pay a price, JAWS may decide to charge it.  But that doesn't mean that institutions are irrational.  They aren't going to accept a thousand percent price rise of a product just because JAWS owners decide to try to charge it. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2017 3:00 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] WebAim Screen Reader User Survey #7: Getting The Word Out About NVDA

I totally agree with you Erick. The education institutions that deliver equipment to students in Vancouver and around BC and here in Victoria haven’t really embraced NVDA but I can see them embracing NVDA sooner rather than later. Remember, FS always saw its main competition, Window-Eyes as a threat. Since the main competition is now gone, , eventually VFO could raise the price of JAWS a lot higher, say, to $10000 or so, and that would force educational institutions to go with NVDA.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of erik burggraaf
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2017 10:12 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] WebAim Screen Reader User Survey #7: Getting The Word Out About NVDA

 

The sample size is very small in these surveys,  but they definitely show the paradigm shift and I won't be surprised at all to see mobile, mac voiceover, and nvda useage up, and jaws useage down.  Window-eyes use should fall right off the charts since the product is discontinued.  This will help slow the skid of jaws, but I think at least as many window-eyes switchers made it to NVDA as to jaws, despite the fact that jaws 18 was a free upgrade for Many window-eyes users.

Since the new paradigm puts the blind more or less on an equal playing field, and social, legal and economic trends all support moving in that direction it shouldn't be too surprising that blind users want it more and more.  I have thought for years that 2021 is about the final stopping point for old paradigm designs, particularly the personal computer, but I can see a lot of tradition going by the board by then.  This is all good for us, and it's nice to have something concreet to demonstrate the trend we can all see happening around us.

Have fun,

Erik

On October 2, 2017 12:57:37 AM "Sarah k Alawami" <marrie12@...> wrote:

Wow, interesting. I'm not surprised. I wonder what we'll see this year now that a lot of us are switching to nvda and or android and or voiceover.

 

Take care



On Oct 1, 2017, at 9:34 PM, Gene New Zealand <hurrikennyandopo@...> wrote:

 

hi Bhavya

 

I have been following the surveys after they  survey  has finished.

 

I have also been noticing that the number of jaws users have been dropping along with a few of the commercial screen users and magnifiers etc.

 

Also the use of mobile units starting to rise as in the use of android and apple devices that can go portable.

 

For me mostly home use is nvda 100 percent of the time and if mobile a android device.

 

Gene nz

 

 

On 10/1/2017 2:20 AM, Bhavya shah wrote:

Dear all,
Since almost a decade, WebAim, a non-profit web
accessibility
consultancy organisation, has been conducting an
annual (sometimes
biennial) survey, which, as its name implies, attempts
to gather
statistics
about the usage share of different screen
readers,
technology
(particularly Internet) accessibility trends, etc. so as
to
aid analysts,
researchers, accessibility consultants,
sighted
developers,
and mainstream companies to get a quantified picture
of
the state of the
AT industry.
While
this survey features participation from varied
geographies,
NVDA’s
user base, at least in my personal view, has always
been
understated.
While 8% respondents of the first December 2008
WebAim
survey
reported to be NVDA users, this figure has only increased
to
14% of
respondents in its 2015 counterpart claiming to use NVDA
as
their primary
screen reader and 41% using it commonly, a usage
share
substantially
lower than NVDA’s commercial and more expensive
screen
reading
alternatives.
I
think it would be a great way of playing our tiny part in
getting
the word out
about NVDA’s viability and competency  if all
NVDA
community
members, users, testers and other related
parties,
particularly from second and third world developing
regions which
often
remain silent for such surveys but where free and open
source
NVDA makes a
prominent impact, take this survey and contribute
to
letting the world
know about the size and standing of the NVDA
user
base.
The URL of said survey is  https://webaim.org/projects/screenreadersurvey7/
.
It took me about ten minutes to fill this survey and
the form was
extremely accessible. Not only from an NVDA angle, but
filling such
surveys
always brings out useful and reflective data, which, in
turn,
betters AT as
a whole. Therefore, I urge everyone to take some
time
out for this
survey so that we can make the data truly reflective
of
the
actualities.
Thanks.
P.S. I am in no way affiliated to WebAim nor is my
intention to merely
promote this survey.
 

 

--

Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.

 



Re: Braille, how many use it?

Sarah k Alawami
 

I'm in the lovely state of NV whee our school districts ranks 50 in drop out rate. It's sad and the blind children and under grad and post grad fall by the wayside. I had to argue for braille music which I can read, for my classes in undergrad classes. Hmm. Maybe if muse score becomes more usable or what not there can be a program to render music xml into braille for nvda to then rout to a braille display for me.

On Oct 3, 2017, at 4:42 PM, Lino Morales <linomorales001@...> wrote:

Are you fricking serious? What state you at?


On 10/3/2017 12:59 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
There are actually bills here in my state to stop braille from being taught in the school districts. I'm not in agreement with that as I use braille. I's like my pen and pencil. It also helps me not exactly take tests as I'm a slow reader but I can get by at 120 wpm when giving a speech as I don't need to talk fast anyway.

On Oct 3, 2017, at 9:26 AM, Karim Lakhani <karim.lakhani@...> wrote:

Schools in Edmonton stopped teaching cursive writing in grade 3.
So the future generation coming up are going to be so relyant
on technology just like us.




EMAIL:karim.lakhani@...
$$$$
SKYPE: goldenace4
$$$$
Your reputation is in the hands of others. That's what a
reputation is. You can't control that. The only thing you
can control is your character.
- Wayne Walter Dyer (1940-)



-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf
Of Nevzat Adil
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 7:30 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Braille is as important to a blind person as print is to someone
who can see. I do not see any sighted person saying they should
give up print because of technology. I am glad NVDA developers
are working on making it braille friendly. The fact that braille
displays are too expensive should not discourage learning braille
as prices are bound to come down and many get those devices the
government or private programs, anyway.

On 10/3/17, Robert Mendoza <lowvisiontek@...> wrote:
Lucky of those who has a braille display, cause here it is very
expensive and you need to buy it online or rather to pre-order
to the
selected store. So I simply used the ordinary keyboard.

Robert Mendoza

On 10/3/2017 5:41 AM, Adriani Botez wrote:
In Germany they are also bein paid by ministery of labor or by
the
health insurance company. And very often is being individually
judged
if the person gets the device paid or not. It depends on the
time
period since last payment or on how well tested is the
technical
features of the device.


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im
Auftrag von
Mallard
Gesendet: Dienstag, 3. Oktober 2017 14:35
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

I agree. Luckily, the National Health Service here in Italy
gives us
braille displays, either totally paid by the National Health
Service
itself, or partly - depending on the cost of the device.


I used an Optacon before the advent of braille displays, and
still
do, but on paper and ereaders; no longer on a pc screen, due
to
uncomfortable position of my workstation.


I couldn't live without braille! I switched to NVDA only once
braille
support was introduced.

Ciao,

Ollie





Il 03/10/2017 13:41, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
ha scritto:
Tis is just a question. I see a lot of work going on on the
development front to make these displays and the entering of
the
code more intuitive and better.
I just wondered how many folk here can afford to use a
Braille
display on their machines? Since the promised Orbit seems to
be
having issues getting out of the factory, most of the other
choices
out there need a second mortgage to buy them!

Just musing that was all.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.















Re: Owner's Notes, Please Read Updated

Armando Maldonado
 

Yep I agree. I am slowly embracing NVDA and regardless of our preferences, we shall be respectful towards one another. Nimer did hit it on the money, as our messages we post reflects our image as a whole. Great post nimer!

Armando

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Nimer Jaber
Sent: Tuesday, October 3, 2017 6:37 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Owner's Notes, Please Read Updated

 

Sorry, I pressed send too early...

 

Hello everyone,
I come to you with a couple of things, and I hope you will read this in its entirety. If you have any questions, please submit them to nvda+owner@nvda.groups.io and I will be happy to help you, as will Gene.
First, all of us, every single person, represents ourselves in each post we choose to write publicly. We choose how we are portrayed, and the image we want others to see. In that same light, if we choose to participate in a community of members, we represent that community to the outside world, particularly as all messages are viewable publicly and are archived fo,r all to read at a time of their choosing. As members of the NVDA community, we represent not only ourselves, but also NVAccess, and the blindness community as a whole. Whether we choose to or not, this is how it is.
I write all of that to say that each message you write should be written with care and attention to this fact. It is not acceptable to write messages disparaging the VFO group or any other competitor by calling them by offensive names, or in any way bashing other products or manufacturers. Whether you or I or anyone else likes JAWS is irrelevant to this list, and moreover writing about JAWS and calling it by names other than what it is will not be permitted.
Second, the topic of this list is NVDA. We all are here to learn from one another, to help one another, and to participate in the NVDA community. The topic is NVDA, and talking about how good JAWS is or how bad it is does not relate to NVDA. I have been pretty lenient in allowing some off-topic posts as I believe the list, by in large, self-moderates, and because some debate is healthy, and because the conversations on here, whether they relate to NVDA or not, can be helpful to list members, so long as it does not detract from the purpose of the list, and it does not attack other companies, or their products, and it remains respectful of all list members. to that end, how good or bad any competitor is not relevant to this list... it definitely is not relevant and will not be permitted with associated name calling. Please, show respect of each other, NVAccess, the wider NVDA community, the blindness community, and any competitor to NVAccess.

Now, let me be extra clear. Any member bashing JAWS by calling it by other names, anyone who does this with any NVAccess competitor, and anyone who shows disregard and harms the reputation of NVAccess and this community continually will face no less than a ten-day posting ban, possibly longer. The second offense will result in a permanent posting ban. I do not take this step lightly. I will most likely invite you to an off-list chat first, but this is something that will be taken seriously.

Finally, posting about the jeffsdream site or whatever it is, and posting about illegal text-to-speech engines is very strictly prohibited. If I see a thread where this takes place, or something like this is brought to my attention, it will receive an immediate permanent ban. no illegal software of any kind will be discussed on this list. I am one person, and if you read this message and see a thread where this occurs, please notify me immediately by sending a message to nvda+owner@nvda.groups.io and I or Gene will immediately lock the thread, and ban the member permanently. I do not wish to say anymore about this.

Nimer Jaber, NVDA Community List Owner

--

Cordially,

Nimer Jaber

My mission is to bring love and peace to everyone around me with all tools available to me.
My core values are integrity, innovation, loyalty, excellence, and 100% personal responsibility.

 

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats. However, security of your machine is
up to you. Thanks.

Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for windows XP
and above, please click here:
http://www.nvda-project.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (218-606-0475) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly. Thank
you, and have a great day!


Owner's Notes, Please Read Updated

Nimer Jaber
 

Sorry, I pressed send too early...

Hello everyone,
I come to you with a couple of things, and I hope you will read this in its entirety. If you have any questions, please submit them to nvda+owner@nvda.groups.io and I will be happy to help you, as will Gene.
First, all of us, every single person, represents ourselves in each post we choose to write publicly. We choose how we are portrayed, and the image we want others to see. In that same light, if we choose to participate in a community of members, we represent that community to the outside world, particularly as all messages are viewable publicly and are archived fo,r all to read at a time of their choosing. As members of the NVDA community, we represent not only ourselves, but also NVAccess, and the blindness community as a whole. Whether we choose to or not, this is how it is.
I write all of that to say that each message you write should be written with care and attention to this fact. It is not acceptable to write messages disparaging the VFO group or any other competitor by calling them by offensive names, or in any way bashing other products or manufacturers. Whether you or I or anyone else likes JAWS is irrelevant to this list, and moreover writing about JAWS and calling it by names other than what it is will not be permitted.
Second, the topic of this list is NVDA. We all are here to learn from one another, to help one another, and to participate in the NVDA community. The topic is NVDA, and talking about how good JAWS is or how bad it is does not relate to NVDA. I have been pretty lenient in allowing some off-topic posts as I believe the list, by in large, self-moderates, and because some debate is healthy, and because the conversations on here, whether they relate to NVDA or not, can be helpful to list members, so long as it does not detract from the purpose of the list, and it does not attack other companies, or their products, and it remains respectful of all list members. to that end, how good or bad any competitor is not relevant to this list... it definitely is not relevant and will not be permitted with associated name calling. Please, show respect of each other, NVAccess, the wider NVDA community, the blindness community, and any competitor to NVAccess.

Now, let me be extra clear. Any member bashing JAWS by calling it by other names, anyone who does this with any NVAccess competitor, and anyone who shows disregard and harms the reputation of NVAccess and this community continually will face no less than a ten-day posting ban, possibly longer. The second offense will result in a permanent posting ban. I do not take this step lightly. I will most likely invite you to an off-list chat first, but this is something that will be taken seriously.

Finally, posting about the jeffsdream site or whatever it is, and posting about illegal text-to-speech engines is very strictly prohibited. If I see a thread where this takes place, or something like this is brought to my attention, it will receive an immediate permanent ban. no illegal software of any kind will be discussed on this list. I am one person, and if you read this message and see a thread where this occurs, please notify me immediately by sending a message to nvda+owner@nvda.groups.io and I or Gene will immediately lock the thread, and ban the member permanently. I do not wish to say anymore about this.

Nimer Jaber, NVDA Community List Owner
--
Cordially,

Nimer Jaber

My mission is to bring love and peace to everyone around me with all tools available to me.
My core values are integrity, innovation, loyalty, excellence, and 100% personal responsibility.

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats. However, security of your machine is
up to you. Thanks.

Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for windows XP
and above, please click here:
http://www.nvda-project.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (218-606-0475) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly. Thank
you, and have a great day!


Re: Owner's Notes, Please Read #adminnotice

Armando Maldonado
 

Yep I agree. I am slowly embracing NVDA and regardless of our preferences, we shall be respectful towards one another. Nimer did hit it on the money, as our messages we post reflects our image as a whole. Great post nimer!

Armando

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Nimer Jaber
Sent: Tuesday, October 3, 2017 6:17 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Owner's Notes, Please Read #adminnotice

 

Hello everyone,

I come to you with a couple of things, and I hope you will read this in its entirety. If you have any questions, please submit them to nvda+owner@nvda.groups.io and I will be happy to help you, as will Gene.

First, all of us, every single person, represents ourselves in each post we choose to write publicly. We choose how we are portrayed, and the image we want others to see. In that same light, if we choose to participate in a community of members, we represent that community to the outside world, particularly as all messages are viewable publicly and are archived fo,r all to read at a time of their choosing. As members of the NVDA community, we represent not only ourselves, but also NVAccess, and the blindness community as a whole. Whether we choose to or not, this is how it is.

I write all of that to say that each message you write should be written with care and attention to this fact. It is not acceptable to write messages disparaging the VFO group or any other competitor by calling them by offensive names, or in any way bashing other products or manufacturers. Whether you or I or anyone else likes JAWS is irrelevant to this list, and moreover writing about JAWS and calling it by names other than what it is will not be permitted.

Second, the topic of this list is NVDA. We all are here to learn from one another, to help one another, and to participate in the NVDA community. The topic is NVDA, and talking about how good JAWS is or how bad it is does not relate to NVDA. I have been pretty lenient in allowing some off-topic posts as I believe the list, by in large, self-moderates, and because some debate is healthy, and because the conversations on here, whether they relate to NVDA or not, can be helpful to list members, so long as it does not detract from the purpose of the list, and it does not attack other companies

--

Cordially,

Nimer Jaber

My mission is to bring love and peace to everyone around me with all tools available to me.
My core values are integrity, innovation, loyalty, excellence, and 100% personal responsibility.

 

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats. However, security of your machine is
up to you. Thanks.

Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for windows XP
and above, please click here:
http://www.nvda-project.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (218-606-0475) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly. Thank
you, and have a great day!


Re: Braille, how many use it?

 

True, but with the prices of displays and the like no wander its discouraged, this has been turned round but in the early days and even now you need to choose braille or computer.

They prefur to buy a computer because braille devices are expensive even for the local blind institutions so even some of those are hurting now.

On 4/10/2017 10:18 a.m., Pascal Lambert wrote:
Very few people use Braille in the USA because for a long time it has been discouraged and many schools for the blind pushed large print and audio over Braille. Today blind sudents are mainstreamed and thus get very little instruction in the use of Braille through their itinerant teacher. As a result, many of them are not competent Braille readers. I use both and by far prefer Braille for many tasks and many readings that require paying close studying. I have the costly Braille Sense U2 and enjoy using it a lot over my laptop. I do most of the serfing on the laptop as the Braille Sense u2 is much slower and many pages do not load due to its old browser. We need to push Braille literacy as Braille is more efficient for many tasks. I learned Braille in France where it is very much emphasized. Most French Braille users read an average of 300 to 400 words a minute and use both hands to read.
Blessings
Pascal
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of brian
Sent: Tuesday, October 3, 2017 4:37 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

I do prefer braille to speack and if braille displays were afordable I would try one and if there was a full page display that would be great. I know that lots of blind people preferaudio to braille but for thoseof us who do prefer braille we are all to often forced to get only audio instead of our prefered format braille. We are being denied braille.

Brian Sackrider


On 10/3/2017 9:14 AM, Damien Sykes-Lindley wrote:
Hi,
Braille displays are super expensive. So expensive, in fact, that I'm
surprised they're still on the market!
As for me, very naughty me, especially being total, I haven't touched
Braille in ten years. Consequently, I've forgotten most of it! I'm a
speech user all the way.
Cheers.
Damien.
-----Original Message----- From: Steve Nutt
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 2:04 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Hi,

I wouldn't be without Braille personally. You can only tell so much
with speech, unless you turn on formatting and all that jazz.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: 03 October 2017 12:42
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Tis is just a question. I see a lot of work going on on the
development front to make these displays and the entering of the code
more intuitive and better.
I just wondered how many folk here can afford to use a Braille display
on their machines? Since the promised Orbit seems to be having issues
getting out of the factory, most of the other choices out there need
a second mortgage to buy them!

Just musing that was all.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
















.


Owner's Notes, Please Read #adminnotice

Nimer Jaber
 

Hello everyone,

I come to you with a couple of things, and I hope you will read this in its entirety. If you have any questions, please submit them to nvda+owner@nvda.groups.io and I will be happy to help you, as will Gene.

First, all of us, every single person, represents ourselves in each post we choose to write publicly. We choose how we are portrayed, and the image we want others to see. In that same light, if we choose to participate in a community of members, we represent that community to the outside world, particularly as all messages are viewable publicly and are archived fo,r all to read at a time of their choosing. As members of the NVDA community, we represent not only ourselves, but also NVAccess, and the blindness community as a whole. Whether we choose to or not, this is how it is.

I write all of that to say that each message you write should be written with care and attention to this fact. It is not acceptable to write messages disparaging the VFO group or any other competitor by calling them by offensive names, or in any way bashing other products or manufacturers. Whether you or I or anyone else likes JAWS is irrelevant to this list, and moreover writing about JAWS and calling it by names other than what it is will not be permitted.

Second, the topic of this list is NVDA. We all are here to learn from one another, to help one another, and to participate in the NVDA community. The topic is NVDA, and talking about how good JAWS is or how bad it is does not relate to NVDA. I have been pretty lenient in allowing some off-topic posts as I believe the list, by in large, self-moderates, and because some debate is healthy, and because the conversations on here, whether they relate to NVDA or not, can be helpful to list members, so long as it does not detract from the purpose of the list, and it does not attack other companies
--
Cordially,

Nimer Jaber

My mission is to bring love and peace to everyone around me with all tools available to me.
My core values are integrity, innovation, loyalty, excellence, and 100% personal responsibility.

The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was
addressed. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient,
please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this
correspondence. Action taken as a result of this email or its contents
by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) may result in civil or
criminal charges. I have checked this email and all corresponding
attachments for security threats. However, security of your machine is
up to you. Thanks.

Registered Linux User 529141.
http://counter.li.org/

To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for windows XP
and above, please click here:
http://www.nvda-project.org

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

To contact me, you can reply to this email or you may call me at (218-606-0475) and I will do my best to respond to you promptly. Thank
you, and have a great day!


Re: Braille, how many use it?

 

Well being that I started with braille if I could read it by page or more than 1 line at a time and it was a display like a screen and I could input to then sure maybe.

I have used audio for so long though.

On 4/10/2017 9:37 a.m., brian wrote:
I do prefer braille to speack and if braille displays were afordable I would try one and if there was a full page display that would be great.  I know that lots of blind people preferaudio to braille but for thoseof us who do prefer braille we are all to often forced to get only audio instead of our prefered format braille.  We are being denied braille.

Brian Sackrider


On 10/3/2017 9:14 AM, Damien Sykes-Lindley wrote:
Hi,
Braille displays are super expensive. So expensive, in fact, that I'm surprised they're still on the market!
As for me, very naughty me, especially being total, I haven't touched Braille in ten years. Consequently, I've forgotten most of it! I'm a speech user all the way.
Cheers.
Damien.
-----Original Message----- From: Steve Nutt
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 2:04 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Hi,

I wouldn't be without Braille personally.  You can only tell so much with
speech, unless you turn on formatting and all that jazz.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's
Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: 03 October 2017 12:42
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Tis is just a question. I see a lot of work going on on the development
front to make these displays and the entering of the code more intuitive and
better.
I just wondered how many folk here can afford to use a Braille display on
their machines? Since the promised Orbit seems to be having issues getting
out  of the factory, most of the other choices out there need a second
mortgage to buy them!

Just musing that was all.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.













.


Re: Braille, how many use it?

Jaffar Sidek <jaffar.sidek10@...>
 

Hi.  You are right.  One good example of this is in an exams situation.  IF the questions were in braille, you could refer or reread to them in your own time.  If it was in audio form, iether recorded or being read live, you could never get the same level of detail.  you would have to press the rewind button which could be more of a hit and miss, or your reader's patience may well have reached it's limit if you ask him/her to reread the question more than a few times.   I bet many of us, educated in the 50s, 60s, and 70s, who were forced to read and write in braille, simply because there was no other medium available have benifitted from increasing their levels in reading and writing.  Today, computers and audio are just convenient replacements.  As much as the sighted need print, we need braille.  True that like everything else, braille has it's cons, But weigh those against one vital point, that without first learning braille, most of us would not have had the opportunity to be on this, or any other email list today, and that has to say a lot for the pros of learning to read and write braille.  Cheers!

On 4/10/2017 6:09 AM, brian wrote:
This argument that we don't need braille is like the argument that we don't need ham radio or even broadcast radio anymore because of technology.  Well what if there was a major hak or a disaster that took out the power grid.  Think about the recient heracanes and radio was still viable when all other technology was not available.  This could also be the case for braille.  If all of our high technology goes down for what ever reason and you don't braille what will you do then/  I think that every blind person who is able should know grade 2 braille no exceptions unless you do have a medical condition that prevents you from being able to read braille.

Brian Sackrider


On 10/3/2017 3:36 PM, Shaun Everiss wrote:
I agree, braille could be used better, its still a good medium as a way for the blind to read like the sighted.

But take it out of school if that now, and the fact is you don't need to use it generally.

I'd like to see it on menus or places where you would read it more naturally rather than taking out my device and looking different.

We also need to learn how to get devices where you can type quieter.

At some university classes and school I had to type in another room because of it being to loud.

And even when I was allowed, the fact is the noise is like a dot matrix I know its my right to be able to use it but at convenience of others.

I am entitled because I am blind but later on I do wander at what they had to put up with.

But you never think about that when you are a kid.




On 4/10/2017 3:06 a.m., Damien Sykes-Lindley wrote:
Hi,
I don't see anyone saying that we should give up braille for technology. That seemed to happen naturally in my case because I had no need to read it, so I never did. Only recently when trying to play a game I realised just how screwed my braille skills actually are.
In fact, I totally agree that braille would be better in some areas of work, programming and large calculations being two such areas. On the other hand, try asking for a disability/assistive technology grant over here and see if you can break the record for the longest fight and largest number of letdowns... I've just about given up hope on both the government and the RNIB. Bleh.
Cheers.
Damien.
-----Original Message----- From: Nevzat Adil
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 2:29 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Braille is as important to a blind person as print is to someone who
can see. I do not see any sighted person saying they should give up
print because of technology. I am glad NVDA developers are working on
making it braille friendly. The fact that braille displays are too
expensive should not discourage learning braille as prices are bound
to come down and many get those devices the government or private
programs, anyway.

On 10/3/17, Robert Mendoza <lowvisiontek@...> wrote:
Lucky of those who has a braille display, cause here it is very
expensive and you need to buy it online or rather to pre-order to the
selected store. So I simply used the ordinary keyboard.

Robert Mendoza

On 10/3/2017 5:41 AM, Adriani Botez wrote:
In Germany they are also bein paid by ministery of labor or by the health
insurance company. And very often is being individually judged if the
person
gets the device paid or not. It depends on the time period since last
payment or on how well tested is the technical features of the device.


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von
Mallard
Gesendet: Dienstag, 3. Oktober 2017 14:35
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

I agree. Luckily, the National Health Service here in Italy gives us
braille
displays, either totally paid by the National Health Service itself, or
partly - depending on the cost of the device.


I used an Optacon before the advent of braille displays, and still do,
but
on paper and ereaders; no longer on a pc screen, due to uncomfortable
position of my workstation.


I couldn't live without braille! I switched to NVDA only once braille
support was introduced.

Ciao,

Ollie





Il 03/10/2017 13:41, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io ha scritto:
Tis is just a question. I see a lot of work going on on the
development front to make these displays and the entering of the code
more intuitive and better.
I just wondered how many folk here can afford to use a Braille display
on their machines? Since the promised Orbit seems to be having issues
getting out  of the factory, most of the other choices out there need
a second mortgage to buy them!

Just musing that was all.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.



















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