Date   

Re: Issues with Windows 10 upgrades

Stephen
 

It sounds like a windows permissions problem.

At 08:00 PM 10/6/2017, you wrote:
Gene,


that's the very first page I found too, and the very first thing we did, with my husband, but to no avail...


Goodness knows what is causing this thing.

The funny thing is, that my little, old packard Bell netbook from 2010 upgraded to 1703 without any issues whatsoever, even using my smartphone as a hotspot...


Ciao,

Ollie





Il 05/10/2017 22:36, Gene New Zealand ha scritto:

Hi


As long as i entered in the right error code and did not leave any thing else i done a quick search and came up with this page at http://www.errorlive.com/error-code-0x8007001f

Hopefully i copied the whole error code but it if it is this one looks like you need to update your audio driver or try some of the steps there.


Usually at times it is usually to do with a usb device.


Gene nz



On 10/6/2017 9:14 AM, Mallard wrote:
Well, I think we tried all possible troubleshooting tools and fixes available. Every time we were back to square one. A sort of "catch 22" situation. We were advised to restoer, but restore wouldn't work. we were advised to use a cd, but that told us there was an error (always the same error code!).

I'll try with the newer version as soon as it appears, but I'm afraid I'll have to stay on this 1607 thingy, unless I want to format the machine...


Ciao, thanks!

Ollie





Il 05/10/2017 19:16, Randy Barnett ha scritto:
I have and it is a serious pain. Try the windows update troubleshooting tool. Just google it and then install it from MS.
If that dowsnt fix it there are some more advanced workarounds but Sometimes it is easier to just reinstall windows with the latest version.
On 10/5/2017 6:23 AM, Mallard wrote:
Hello all,

My machine (a desktop from HP, which was bought refurbished, and has 12GB of ram at the moment) doesn't seem to want to upgrade to Creator.
It has been attempiting to do the updates, but every time it says there's an error, and can't complete the procedure.

It gives me the following error:

Error: 0x8007001f

I searched for the code on teh web, and so did my husband, but we didn't come up with anything viable.

Has anyone, by any chance, experienced somehting like this, and how did you solve it, if you did at all?

Thanks, ciao,
Ollie


--
Image NVDA certified expert
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


Re: Braille, how many use it?

slery <slerythema@...>
 

This is great to hear. In the US part of the problem is that our VI
teachers that are not blind are not competent in Braille so they want to
focus on magnification or audio. They receive minimal instruction do it
requires extra effort to go beyond basics.
Cindy

On October 3, 2017 5:18:42 PM "Pascal Lambert" <rambeau68@gmail.com> wrote:

Very few people use Braille in the USA because for a long time it has been
discouraged and many schools for the blind pushed large print and audio
over Braille. Today blind sudents are mainstreamed and thus get very
little instruction in the use of Braille through their itinerant teacher.
As a result, many of them are not competent Braille readers. I use both
and by far prefer Braille for many tasks and many readings that require
paying close studying. I have the costly Braille Sense U2 and enjoy using
it a lot over my laptop. I do most of the serfing on the laptop as the
Braille Sense u2 is much slower and many pages do not load due to its old
browser. We need to push Braille literacy as Braille is more efficient for
many tasks. I learned Braille in France where it is very much emphasized.
Most French Braille users read an average of 300 to 400 words a minute and
use both hands to read.
Blessings
Pascal
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of brian
Sent: Tuesday, October 3, 2017 4:37 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

I do prefer braille to speack and if braille displays were afordable I
would try one and if there was a full page display that would be great. I
know that lots of blind people preferaudio to braille but for thoseof us
who do prefer braille we are all to often forced to get only audio instead
of our prefered format braille. We are being denied braille.

Brian Sackrider


On 10/3/2017 9:14 AM, Damien Sykes-Lindley wrote:
Hi,
Braille displays are super expensive. So expensive, in fact, that I'm
surprised they're still on the market!
As for me, very naughty me, especially being total, I haven't touched
Braille in ten years. Consequently, I've forgotten most of it! I'm a
speech user all the way.
Cheers.
Damien.
-----Original Message----- From: Steve Nutt
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 2:04 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Hi,

I wouldn't be without Braille personally. You can only tell so much
with speech, unless you turn on formatting and all that jazz.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: 03 October 2017 12:42
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Braille, how many use it?

Tis is just a question. I see a lot of work going on on the
development front to make these displays and the entering of the code
more intuitive and better.
I just wondered how many folk here can afford to use a Braille display
on their machines? Since the promised Orbit seems to be having issues
getting out of the factory, most of the other choices out there need
a second mortgage to buy them!

Just musing that was all.
Brian

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Re: urgent tb help

Tyler Spivey
 

It acts like a tree view. Press the right arrow once when NVDA says unknown.

On 10/6/2017 5:42 PM, Brian Moore wrote:
well, should loose my parent license but a sighted 10 year old works
too. he says there is only inbox in that dialogue. this confuses me as
there are all kinds of folders under it but i'm sure he isn't making it up


Contact me on skype: brian.moore
follow me on twitter:
http://www.twitter.com/bmoore123

On 10/6/2017 1:21 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
Cloud OCR will let you click on things. Try that.

On Oct 6, 2017, at 7:05 AM, Brian Moore <bmoore@screenreview.org> wrote:

hi. yeah, could try ocr but that won't help me manipulate the
control which is what I need to do.



Contact me on skype: brian.moore
follow me on twitter:
http://www.twitter.com/bmoore123

On 10/06/2017 9:58 AM, Tyler Spivey wrote:
Looks like that control isn't accessible. Flat review doesn't seem
to work, so you'll need to try OCR.
On 10/6/2017 6:40 AM, Brian Moore wrote:
Hi all. So I have a few imap accounts. There are folders like spam
and
in particular .oldmessages which don't seem to be subscribed to
automatically.


I went to the root of the account and went to the subscribe
dialogue in
the file menu of tb to see if I could manually add these folders.
However, I can't find a way with with nvda to read the folder list so
not sure if these folders are showing up.


Tried with jaws as well and no joy there either.


anyone got any ideas of how I can force folders to be subscribed to
manually with thunderbird?


If I have to, I will use another email client as there are messages,
particularly in .old messages which I need access to.


Thanks.

Brian.







Re: urgent tb help

Brian Moore
 

well, should loose my parent license but a sighted 10 year old works too.  he says there is only inbox in that dialogue.  this confuses me as there are all kinds of folders under it but i'm sure he isn't making it up


Contact me on skype: brian.moore
follow me on twitter:
http://www.twitter.com/bmoore123

On 10/6/2017 1:21 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
Cloud OCR will let you click on things. Try that.

On Oct 6, 2017, at 7:05 AM, Brian Moore <bmoore@screenreview.org> wrote:

hi. yeah, could try ocr but that won't help me manipulate the control which is what I need to do.



Contact me on skype: brian.moore
follow me on twitter:
http://www.twitter.com/bmoore123

On 10/06/2017 9:58 AM, Tyler Spivey wrote:
Looks like that control isn't accessible. Flat review doesn't seem to work, so you'll need to try OCR.
On 10/6/2017 6:40 AM, Brian Moore wrote:
Hi all. So I have a few imap accounts. There are folders like spam and
in particular .oldmessages which don't seem to be subscribed to
automatically.


I went to the root of the account and went to the subscribe dialogue in
the file menu of tb to see if I could manually add these folders.
However, I can't find a way with with nvda to read the folder list so
not sure if these folders are showing up.


Tried with jaws as well and no joy there either.


anyone got any ideas of how I can force folders to be subscribed to
manually with thunderbird?


If I have to, I will use another email client as there are messages,
particularly in .old messages which I need access to.


Thanks.

Brian.





Re: Update issues on snapshots again

Dave Grossoehme
 

Good Afternoon:  It's possibile that your files are in a buffer that won't empty out the new info to entered?

Dave Insider

On 10/3/2017 4:28 AM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
Its getting even more complicated now as the same is happening on the portable installs. It seems to me that files in nvda are being held as un renamable even when a different copy of nvda is running, thus when the temp copy of the installer on next or master attempts to rename the old files before deleting them after replacement it simply cannot do so unless its straight after a system restart.

Is this something peculiar to windows 7, is there anything you can think of that might be doing this or what? As it seems to affect this and the other machine in different locations then it looks to me like something is keeping files as in use when they are not.
I'm at a loss to know wheere to proceed with this as onther software that updates behaves as it always used to and if it were a windows issue it would show up elsewhere one would have thought.


I have now restored working by doing resets and running  a third copy to run the instalations of both master and next to make the appropriate versions carefully making sure not to have had that version I'm installing or copying over in that windows session. this unfortunately really means manual download of the installed branch, Master so one can control the  session.
Is there any way to tell which files windows treats as in use?
I did notice a change about when this started by Mick of changing file names to stop the old copies from being used in the new version so that Firefox would not become unusable when nvda updates if it happened to be running at that time. It was around this time things started to misbehave.


Before that could it have been handled differently so that the problem was not noticed?
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
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----- Original Message ----- From: "Quentin Christensen" <quentin@nvaccess.org>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 10:08 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Update issues on snapshots again


May be too late to get the original log back, but per
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/wiki/LogFilesAndCrashDumps if you look in
%temp%, you should find any recent logs which still exist and there may be
something in there.


On Tue, Oct 3, 2017 at 7:09 PM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <
bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:

Further to this, the same problems have occurred today updating to the one
with the slight documentation changes, so the problem still exists.
I had to restart windows to get the  installer to run. It is, as I say not
allowing things to be deleted. Any ideas on what to try in nvda?
Its obibviously a recent issue.

I could completely reinstall but that would be impractical at the moment
due to work.

Besides if its affecting me then when the new version comes out there is
going to be a lot of problems.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
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----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian's Mail list account via
Groups.Io" <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 8:17 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Update issues on snapshots again


Yes this reboot is fine but its hard to replicate the exact conditions you
had the first time certainly not just by reinstalling old version and
updating again seems not to create the issue. it is obviously something
going on which still leaves some files locked. Could the log somehow tell
us which the files are which are causing it. That might suggest the issue
to be fixed. IE could there be circumstances in nvda with another program
running that means the system cannot unhook the files it needs to change?
That was muy feeling when I saw the log but without knowing the files its
a bit like a game of battleships!
Brian

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----- Original Message ----- From: "Quentin Christensen" <
quentin@nvaccess.org>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2017 10:51 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Update issues on snapshots again


I just installed 14463 on Windows 7, 64-bit, then ran that copy and
upgraded to 14473 and it seems to be working fine for me.

How is yours after a reboot?

Quentin.

On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 7:45 PM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <
bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:

Anyone running master having update issues today?

Windows 7 64 just did an update as flagged and it deleted the main files
then fell over with  file in use errors leaving it completely brokeen,
Luckily I do have a bckup portable but that won't install either. I
seem to
feel that something that told NVDA to stop using some old files seems to
have failed.
I will need to reboot the computer and then do a clean install I
suspect.
Info nobody running master as an installed copy is having this issue
then
one has to say its an anomaly here, but I cannot see why it would happen
when the last few updates have gone fine.
Brian

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--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available:
http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess






--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available:
http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess


Re: Windows 10 is Very, Very Broken

Randy Barnett <randy@...>
 

Nope I am clean... :) Really I showered and everything! My PC too. :)

On 10/6/2017 3:24 PM, Shaun Everiss wrote:
I get that from messages saying that they have scam links in them from thunderbird to but who knows.




On 6/10/2017 11:15 p.m., Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
As an aside this particular message gave me an alert that an active x vcontrol was on the email, and could be dangerous. I'm mentioning this just in case its something infecting your machine. It read ok without it being allowed to run.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Randy Barnett" <randy@soundtique.net>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, October 06, 2017 4:44 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Windows 10 is Very, Very Broken


Try ctrl +alt + delete. If secure log in got enabled due to corruption
you wont get a password field no matter what you do until you use the
afore memtioned key combo.

On 10/5/2017 5:50 PM, Noah Carver via Groups.Io wrote:
There is no sound what so ever. I tried several reboots with the same
result. NO, I can’t get to the password section, but I can tab and
shift tab around. The password box literally does not exist on the screen.
On Oct 5, 2017, at 20:48, Gene New Zealand
<hurrikennyandopo@outlook.co.nz
<mailto:hurrikennyandopo@outlook.co.nz>> wrote:

hi can you tab around the screen there? or shift/tab or get nvda to
focus on the password section? Can it be shut down from that screen?
maybe a reboot after that might fix it. Is there any thing in one of
the usb holes like a usb stick? i do not mean like printrs etc.


Are you getting any beeps when it boots up? even to that screen?


Gene nz



On 10/6/2017 12:10 PM, Noah Carver via Groups.Io wrote:
OK, so here’s some more in-depth explanation. When does does boot. Boots all the way up until the lock screen. The lock screen appears, showing a lovely photo that Microsoft auto generate. But then I press control to bring up the password entry field, nothing happens. It’s basically locked on the lock screen. That’s my problem. I don’t believe that this is a hardware issue, as windows boot fine. I’m more inclined to believe it has something to do with windows it’s self.

On Oct 5, 2017, at 15:04, Shaun Everiss<sm.everiss@gmail.com>  wrote:

Well a system hang could be many things.

The fact that it just did without warning suggests hardware.

But if a small fan failed you wouldn't know.

If a drive failed you may or may not hear it.

Chances are though that all you need do is hit enter to get things back.

One thing that the user should try.

if you use delete or whatever key that goes to the cmos does it do it.

If it does, if you use a live cd with linux or something does it load.

If the latter then I'll accept the windows issue.

Does the pc even turn on.

I had a server box I was working with, that had been hanging for ages, I turned it on to transfer all data to new hardware and it didn't power, I tried again, and it still didn't power.

Later on the shop confirmed the raid boards and more importantly the boards that were the keys to all the data on the drives were on fire.

We had to pay recovery to get the data.

However to be honest there is a good chance your data is still in tact.

Since windows manages drivers if it hangs you see something and it would restart.

I had a display card do this, run the system suddenly it hangs.

I did a restart, windows detected the display had hung the system, the error was intercepted by the driver software and sent to the right places, I was ordered to update the driver in fact was told how or rathr that there was a firmware bug and asked to patch it.

Chances are most stuff like that well who knows.

A sudden hang without any warning suggests that you have one of the following 3 failiers.

1.  psu or main power pack that can  happen.

Less commen is a bad cord though you would notice internal cords failing or something before that.

The processer failed.

That would actually smell if it did, the main fan needs to jam on a pc and you would hear that happening before it did.

The performance would go nuts same with a pc being full of dust.

I had a pc fail on me for that reason it had been racing with fans up to the max all day long and I had wandered about it I did clear it out but not before some stuff died in it and I had to replace it.

If a small fan failed well yeah I admit if that or your sync failed you wouldn't know about that till you actually noticed dammage.

A video card or other card failed, yeah they actually do fail.

You have bad ram, could happen like that ram does fail.

Your board could fail, this is less likely.

Your firmware has an issue.

This is not a problem if you can get it updated or reflashed and stuff.

Its unlikely you could have a virus or malware or any major software issue unless something is covered up that is.

Software could generated a critical stop so could drivers do of 0x000 which basically means something it did went beyond the capabilities of the processer like an overflow or something dumb, but there are so many checks thats almost nonexistant now.

If you didn't see smoke that doesn't mean the supply didn't just die.

I once had the main system fail, and hang then die, the only thing I heard was a small pop like when I get a fax.

If I was not in the same room as it I wouldn't have noticed.




On 6/10/2017 7:04 a.m., Gene wrote:
Consider what happened.  With no previous report of problems, the system completely hung.  It didn't reboot.  We don't know what, if any errors were on screen.  All this is pure speculation as to causes, corrupted files, the registry, whatever people want to speculate about.  Why would a properly functioning system suddently completely hang and then not reboot? Until we find out what, if any error messages are on screen and if Windows even tries to boot, this is all speculation. I suspect a hardware problem.  Others suspect other causes.  I consider it premature to advise any course of action without more information.

Gene
-----

From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2017 11:36 AM
To:nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Windows 10 is Very, Very Broken


The opposite can also be true, Most software messes with the registry, it
can cock it up on install, or on uninstall if it does not remember to
reregister any dll files it has changed or altered the classification of in
either case. Been there, done that got the T Shirt during xp days.
Its normally the dll files associated with the vearious access APIs that get
clobbered as the original developer probably never tested if screenreaders
wworked before passing the code for distribution. Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Mallard"<mallard@kimabe.eu>
To:<nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2017 2:17 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Windows 10 is Very, Very Broken


Hello Noah,


I wenth through a very similar ordeal during the summer.

Sighted people could use the pc, but I couldn't. My husband tried fixing
Windows in all possible ways, with all possible tools. Nothing doing. We
couldn't even restore the pc.

We were two seconds away from formatting, when all of a sudden he
mentioned a couple of programmes that I said I didn't want to be
reinstalled. He removed one, and nothing happened. But when he removed
the other one (a Bible app I needed for a translation I was doing for
our church group), all got back to normal.


Make sure you haven't installed any software recently, which might have
interfered with NVDA, before you do anything dramatic like reformatting.


This is probably not your case, but better be safe than sorry, so I
shared it. It might help someone.

Ciao,

Ollie





Il 04/10/2017 23:26, Noah Carver via Groups.Io ha scritto:
Hello List,

So, my Windows 10 is really pitching a fit! This all started when I had to
forse shut down my win10 machine using the power butten, because of a
total system hang. Then, I turned the machine back on. But NVDA did not
come back to life. I tried turning on Narrator, and it wouldn't talk.
So I asked my dad to come and look at my screen. According to him, even
when I pressed keys on the keyboard, the log in box wouldn't appear.
I've tried ctrl alt del, I’ve tried rebooting, nothing works. Any help
would be greatly appreciated. I have a radio show in two days, and I have
no backup machine.

Cheers,

Noah Carver




--
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related
material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net
<http://www.accessibilitycentral.net/> Regardless of where you are in
New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy
of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out
which locations (or location) is near to you please visit
http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries
(Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert
near you, please visit the following link
https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains
the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the
world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.

--
Sincereley: Randy Barnett
Owner of Soundtique.
707-502-5575
1897 SE Dr.
Grants Pass, Or. 97526


Re: Windows 10 is Very, Very Broken

 

I get that from messages saying that they have scam links in them from thunderbird to but who knows.

On 6/10/2017 11:15 p.m., Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
As an aside this particular message gave me an alert that an active x vcontrol was on the email, and could be dangerous. I'm mentioning this just in case its something infecting your machine. It read ok without it being allowed to run.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Randy Barnett" <randy@soundtique.net>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, October 06, 2017 4:44 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Windows 10 is Very, Very Broken


Try ctrl +alt + delete. If secure log in got enabled due to corruption
you wont get a password field no matter what you do until you use the
afore memtioned key combo.

On 10/5/2017 5:50 PM, Noah Carver via Groups.Io wrote:
There is no sound what so ever. I tried several reboots with the same
result. NO, I can’t get to the password section, but I can tab and
shift tab around. The password box literally does not exist on the screen.
On Oct 5, 2017, at 20:48, Gene New Zealand
<hurrikennyandopo@outlook.co.nz
<mailto:hurrikennyandopo@outlook.co.nz>> wrote:

hi can you tab around the screen there? or shift/tab or get nvda to
focus on the password section? Can it be shut down from that screen?
maybe a reboot after that might fix it. Is there any thing in one of
the usb holes like a usb stick? i do not mean like printrs etc.


Are you getting any beeps when it boots up? even to that screen?


Gene nz



On 10/6/2017 12:10 PM, Noah Carver via Groups.Io wrote:
OK, so here’s some more in-depth explanation. When does does boot. Boots all the way up until the lock screen. The lock screen appears, showing a lovely photo that Microsoft auto generate. But then I press control to bring up the password entry field, nothing happens. It’s basically locked on the lock screen. That’s my problem. I don’t believe that this is a hardware issue, as windows boot fine. I’m more inclined to believe it has something to do with windows it’s self.

On Oct 5, 2017, at 15:04, Shaun Everiss<sm.everiss@gmail.com>  wrote:

Well a system hang could be many things.

The fact that it just did without warning suggests hardware.

But if a small fan failed you wouldn't know.

If a drive failed you may or may not hear it.

Chances are though that all you need do is hit enter to get things back.

One thing that the user should try.

if you use delete or whatever key that goes to the cmos does it do it.

If it does, if you use a live cd with linux or something does it load.

If the latter then I'll accept the windows issue.

Does the pc even turn on.

I had a server box I was working with, that had been hanging for ages, I turned it on to transfer all data to new hardware and it didn't power, I tried again, and it still didn't power.

Later on the shop confirmed the raid boards and more importantly the boards that were the keys to all the data on the drives were on fire.

We had to pay recovery to get the data.

However to be honest there is a good chance your data is still in tact.

Since windows manages drivers if it hangs you see something and it would restart.

I had a display card do this, run the system suddenly it hangs.

I did a restart, windows detected the display had hung the system, the error was intercepted by the driver software and sent to the right places, I was ordered to update the driver in fact was told how or rathr that there was a firmware bug and asked to patch it.

Chances are most stuff like that well who knows.

A sudden hang without any warning suggests that you have one of the following 3 failiers.

1.  psu or main power pack that can  happen.

Less commen is a bad cord though you would notice internal cords failing or something before that.

The processer failed.

That would actually smell if it did, the main fan needs to jam on a pc and you would hear that happening before it did.

The performance would go nuts same with a pc being full of dust.

I had a pc fail on me for that reason it had been racing with fans up to the max all day long and I had wandered about it I did clear it out but not before some stuff died in it and I had to replace it.

If a small fan failed well yeah I admit if that or your sync failed you wouldn't know about that till you actually noticed dammage.

A video card or other card failed, yeah they actually do fail.

You have bad ram, could happen like that ram does fail.

Your board could fail, this is less likely.

Your firmware has an issue.

This is not a problem if you can get it updated or reflashed and stuff.

Its unlikely you could have a virus or malware or any major software issue unless something is covered up that is.

Software could generated a critical stop so could drivers do of 0x000 which basically means something it did went beyond the capabilities of the processer like an overflow or something dumb, but there are so many checks thats almost nonexistant now.

If you didn't see smoke that doesn't mean the supply didn't just die.

I once had the main system fail, and hang then die, the only thing I heard was a small pop like when I get a fax.

If I was not in the same room as it I wouldn't have noticed.




On 6/10/2017 7:04 a.m., Gene wrote:
Consider what happened.  With no previous report of problems, the system completely hung.  It didn't reboot.  We don't know what, if any errors were on screen.  All this is pure speculation as to causes, corrupted files, the registry, whatever people want to speculate about.  Why would a properly functioning system suddently completely hang and then not reboot? Until we find out what, if any error messages are on screen and if Windows even tries to boot, this is all speculation. I suspect a hardware problem.  Others suspect other causes.  I consider it premature to advise any course of action without more information.

Gene
-----

From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2017 11:36 AM
To:nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Windows 10 is Very, Very Broken


The opposite can also be true, Most software messes with the registry, it
can cock it up on install, or on uninstall if it does not remember to
reregister any dll files it has changed or altered the classification of in
either case. Been there, done that got the T Shirt during xp days.
Its normally the dll files associated with the vearious access APIs that get
clobbered as the original developer probably never tested if screenreaders
wworked before passing the code for distribution. Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mallard"<mallard@kimabe.eu>
To:<nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2017 2:17 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Windows 10 is Very, Very Broken


Hello Noah,


I wenth through a very similar ordeal during the summer.

Sighted people could use the pc, but I couldn't. My husband tried fixing
Windows in all possible ways, with all possible tools. Nothing doing. We
couldn't even restore the pc.

We were two seconds away from formatting, when all of a sudden he
mentioned a couple of programmes that I said I didn't want to be
reinstalled. He removed one, and nothing happened. But when he removed
the other one (a Bible app I needed for a translation I was doing for
our church group), all got back to normal.


Make sure you haven't installed any software recently, which might have
interfered with NVDA, before you do anything dramatic like reformatting.


This is probably not your case, but better be safe than sorry, so I
shared it. It might help someone.

Ciao,

Ollie





Il 04/10/2017 23:26, Noah Carver via Groups.Io ha scritto:
Hello List,

So, my Windows 10 is really pitching a fit! This all started when I had to
forse shut down my win10 machine using the power butten, because of a
total system hang. Then, I turned the machine back on. But NVDA did not
come back to life. I tried turning on Narrator, and it wouldn't talk.
So I asked my dad to come and look at my screen. According to him, even
when I pressed keys on the keyboard, the log in box wouldn't appear.
I've tried ctrl alt del, I’ve tried rebooting, nothing works. Any help
would be greatly appreciated. I have a radio show in two days, and I have
no backup machine.

Cheers,

Noah Carver




--
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related
material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net
<http://www.accessibilitycentral.net/> Regardless of where you are in
New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy
of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out
which locations (or location) is near to you please visit
http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries
(Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert
near you, please visit the following link
https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains
the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the
world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


Re: question about comparison between current versions of nvda since 2017.1 about stability

 

Well we must remember we are dealing with a new engine mod for mozilla stuff so there will be some bugs.

I have found 56 quite stable for the most part.

On 6/10/2017 11:11 p.m., Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
Use Firefox 55 or before and all seems pretty good. Indeed the only gripe I have about 55 and some earlier ones is that when first launched it often complains that the page cannot be found. However try again normally finds it. its trying to be too swift of its marks i think before the address is resolved.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
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----- Original Message ----- From: "zahra" <nasrinkhaksar3@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, October 06, 2017 7:18 AM
Subject: [nvda] question about comparison between current versions of nvda since 2017.1 about stability


hello every one.
firefox browser is the most important program for me after nvda currently.
i wish that know between versions 2017.1, 2017.2 and 2017.3 of nvda
which one is the most compatible version using browsers specially
firefox in stability, not hang or crash without causing the problem
(not responding) for both nvda and browser?
i read nvda 17.2 hanged many times and some people requested link for
return to 17.1 after releasing 17.2
but i even heard that 17.3 hangs using browsers.
could you please share your experience with me in this regard?
i appreciate any help, specially from nvda expert users and developers.
God bless you and i sincerely pray for you every day.

--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the entire creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration from prophet Mohammad is:
indeed, imam husayn is the beacon of guidance and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
www.al-islam.org




.


Re: question about comparison between current versions of nvda since 2017.1 about stability

 

I havn't had any issue with firefox 56 to be honest its not always focused but its ok.

The issue I have is that it sometimes wants to drop out of focus where nvda simply refuses to read things properly till I restart it but its not as bad as that.

the  bigger issues I have right now are with outlook not reading the first 2-4 weeks messages at the top of a large list of messages in a vary large 10 year long datafile set my dad has.

And in win10 narator not reading searched items not even reading up and down arrow presses in win10, the system has a lot of cloud share software and nvda does read it.

its win10 pro and I have yet to try it on another system I do hope that issue goes away on the new os.

On 6/10/2017 11:09 p.m., Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
Firefox 56 has a focus bug. I'd downdate to 55 until the navigation issues in 57 beta are sorted out too. After all its still relatively new and we are used to new versions of software often being a little broken at first.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "John Isige" <gwynn@tds.net>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, October 06, 2017 7:53 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] question about comparison between current versions of nvda since 2017.1 about stability


I'm running Firefox 56.0, NVDA 2017.3, and my only issue is that when you first start Firefox, if you use the arrows or move by headings or such, it seems to be slow for a few second, but then it clears up and everything's fine. I haven't had any issues with crashing or whatever.


On 10/6/2017 1:18, zahra wrote:
hello every one.
firefox browser is the most important program for me after nvda currently.
i wish that know between versions 2017.1, 2017.2 and 2017.3 of nvda
which one is the most compatible version using browsers specially
firefox in stability, not hang or crash without causing the problem
(not responding) for both nvda and browser?
i read nvda 17.2 hanged many times and some people requested link for
return to 17.1 after releasing 17.2
but i even heard that 17.3 hangs using browsers.
could you please share your experience with me in this regard?
i appreciate any help, specially from nvda expert users and developers.
God bless you and i sincerely pray for you every day.




.


Re: WebAim Screen Reader User Survey #7: Getting The Word Out About NVDA

Kevin Cussick
 

I used window's bridge ran on windows95 but I didn't use the pc much so can not really say if it was fantastic or not didn't really get back in until window's2000 anyway it did egsist but as said not really a combatant user at that time so can't say much about it. it came on some floppy disks remember them? anyway thanks for reading.

On 06/10/2017 00:08, Randy Barnett wrote:
I have been using Jaws since 95 and i have never even heard of windows bridge. If it was so good why is that? theirs only 2 windows screen reading programs today Jaws and NVDA. I don't count obscure programs no one has ever heard of...
Well, Narrator but that is not a full featured program yet.
On 10/5/2017 3:44 PM, Travis Siegel wrote:

The only statement in this thread I have to take exception to is the statement that jaws was providing access before anyone else.  This statement is completely false.

The very first screen reader ever for windows was windowbridge. Windowbridge had a lot of firsts when it comes to screen reader functionality, including some things that still don't exist in any screen reader available today, such as mouse navigation via locking vertical or horizontal movement so you could find things on the screen easier.

It also was the first screen reader to use the caps lock key as a modifier, (something each and every screen reader has copied since), and it had a lot of other firsts.  Just because a program is the most popular doesn't make it either the best, or the most advanced, or even the one with the most features.  Jaws is popular yes, but a lot of that popularity is due to the fact that state agencies and other government organizations use it and their clients use it, it isn't the mostpopular because it outstrips every other screen reader in the market with it's feature set, capabilities and it's usability.  Folks really should keep that in mind when deiscussing screen readers. There's a reason there are multiple (and always have been) multiple screen readers.  Everyone knows, there is no such thing as one size fits all when it comes to screen readers, no program can be everything to everyone, and the screen reader market is no exception.  Each screen reader has it's pros and it's cons, and what eacyh user uses should be up to that user, only that usually isn't the case.  When I worked for a rather large computer company as a programmer and a tech support person, I did not get to choose what screen reader I wanted to use, I was told that I was going to use jaws, and that I was going to like it, because that's the only option I had.  As it turns out, the copy of jaws I got was an illegal install that wasn't registered to me, and I had to spend my own money to purchase a program I didn't want, just so I wouldn't be liable if some sort of audit came through.  Of course, said audit never did come through, but the point is, you never know what can/will happen, and if you aren't prepared, you could get in a lot of trouble, even for things you didn't do.  Had I had my choice of screen reader, it would have been window-eyes, but I wasn't asked, and I wasn't even consulted about the question. Shortly afterwords, my case was closed by the visual services department, and I never got a single piece of help from them, even though it's their job to provide assistance with this very thing.

This message has strayed way off topic, and even into topics I didn't intend to bring up, but it all goes together, so there it is, make of it what you like.

The point though, is that whatever the screen reader is, it really should be up to the user to choose what they want to use.  If they don't know, then showing them the options and allowing them to choose would be nice, but often times, that isn't what ahppens, and because of that, there is a false impression created that the program of choice (or the device of choice for that matter) is the best/first/what have you, when it could very just as easily be the bottom of the barrel, but nobody knows, because there is no option given.


On 10/4/2017 8:50 AM, erik burggraaf wrote:

Hi Randy,

On October 3, 2017 11:54:34 PM "Randy Barnett" <randy@soundtique.net> wrote:

Jaws has gone down in price over the years.


I'll give you this.  Looking at the freedom scientific website, I can see that the home edition stands at $900, and the professional stands at $1100.  These prices are about 2 or 3 hundred dollars cheeper than when I last had ocasion to keep track some four years ago.  I guess that's about a 20% nock off.  If it doesn't seem like much, that's because 9 c's is far out of reach of the home user.  IE, government is still the primary target market for this product and I believe all my former arguments to retain validity.
FS has been fairly competative on hardware pricing I will give them that.  I don't like most of their hardware, but I know many people who do and the price points make it attractive to both those who use it and those who pay.  Of course, people who use fs hardware naturally tend to gravitate to fs software and vice versa.  This is certainly not always the case, but I see it often.

Even more if you figure in
inflation. It has not gone up at all. Nor is it likely too.

No, I don't buy the inflation bit either, not considering the take home of the top brass at VFO.  The pricing includes all overhead including reasonable inflation, so no.  Plus, we're still debunking the research and development argument.  Each release of jaws does not require the scratch construction of a new speech synthesizer, video display chain driver, and accessibility api among other core functions.  Programmers are talented people who diserve to be paid accordingly, but the scale of the research required to maintain jaws now is nowhere near on the scale it would have been in the late 90's when there were no such things as accessibility standards.

Also, Gene touched on it and others may have too.  They're not just selling jaws.  They're selling training at a premium.  I've seen quotes for scripting ranging from $150 per work hour, to $150 per code line.  I'm working on a human rights employment case right now and just to get an audit of what needs to be fixed in this one company from an accessibility consultant is going to cost $15000. Just to find out what's wrong.  Now, VFO owns one of the supposed leading consulting firms in this area, which means they can test with only jaws, and tout scripting at a premium.  Also, you notice, they don't tell you how much it costs for remote access anymore?  The ominous, "call for pricing".  Let's not waste any clean-x on VFO's proffit margin shall we.

I am not a


big fan of VFO and criticize it often but they are like any other
specialized software. Have you ever price CAD, Audio design, CNC
mapping  and other similar software? they far exceed the cost of Jaws.

Nop, Gene tried this one too, and I didn't have the time to address it but lets just say... No.  If I buy jaws,  it's money spent playing catch up.  There is no doubt the benefits of hiring blind employees. It's the law, and I need to comply.  There are lots of perripheral benefits, but no direct cost recovery.  I mearly pay to supplement what I already have.  IE, I have a great employee and an inaccessible workplace and jaws glues the two together.  But I might be able to find another great employee who doesn't need jaws, and unless I'm planning to start a sideline in some area of accessibility work, I'm not seeing  a direct return on my jaws or ansilary services like scripting.

The argument holds less water in the case of retirees who go blind later in life or other home based use cases.  How many regular people have autocad in their house in case they want to doodle?

If I'm an engineer, I buy autocad.  It is crutial to my job.  It accellerates my workflow and directly earnes me money.  If I had a professional recording studio, I'd pay top dollar for protools. Thousands or 10's of thousands of dollars for a licence is nothing, because knowledge and use of these tools generates direct return on investment in the millians or greater.  Jaws does not offer anything close to that, so there's no comparison to be made at all.

Do I want cheaper Jaws? Of course who wants to pay more for anything!
Dont forget Jaws was providing access long before anyone else and it was
very good access at that. It has taken over 20years for someone to
provide a no cost alternative for the PC.
On 10/3/2017 7:58 PM, Gene wrote:
It should be pointed out that System Access isn't at all equivalent to
JAWS or Window-eyes. It cost less because it was much less capable and
didn't have to work with nearly as many programs.  And it was often
purchased, not as a standalone product, but with the SAM Network.  I
don't know if I have the name just right.  But it could be purchased
either alone or as an integrated product and I wouldn't be surprised
if a lot or most purchasers purchased the whole package, which may
have further led to lowering costs.  Agencies wouldn't have purchased
it in general because their thrust was employment and System Access
wasn't intended as an employment product.
It was intended to give Internet Access, access to certain e-mail
programs and to simple word processing.  It cost about half as much as
JAWS and Window-eyes and it was perhaps one-third as powerful.
Around 2000, whoever owned JAWS at that time attempted to address the
affordability problem by making a product, Connect Outloud.  I believe
you could buy it and it also came, bundled for free with Openbook.
What I heard when it was discontinued after perhaps two or three years
was that there wasn't enough demand to justify continuing it.
It provided Internet access, access to Winamp, Outlook Express,
Wordpad, and it may have provided access to one or two other programs.
I'm not sure why it wasn't popular at the time, given the number of
home users who didn't need a powerful screen-reader and the price of
JAWS and Window-eyes and, as I recall, it was before System Access.
But those who insist on viewing whoever owns JAWS throughout its
history as predators, perhaps they should consider this information.
As far as whether HJAWs developers do enough work to justify the price
currently, I don't know.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Lino Morales <mailto:linomorales001@gmail.com>
*Sent:* Tuesday, October 03, 2017 6:08 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] WebAim Screen Reader User Survey #7: Getting The
Word Out About NVDA

Great post Eric. I wasn't around in the 70's or didn't know jack horse
maneur about AT. Viva la NVDA!


On 10/2/2017 5:50 PM, erik burggraaf wrote:

Lots of for proffit companies made free or low cost screen readers.
Serotek for one.  Apple for another.  I'd say both companies were
successful to one degree or another.  So, why didn't we see
governments lining up to pay for system access? Well, to a lesser
extent some did, but if screen readers cost less, then the funding
becomes less and the portfoleos of nondisabled people making big
money from accessibility legislation shrink.  We certainly don't want
that.  But even at that, system access and the system access network
lasted for a very long time, largely on consumer driven support.

NVDA didn't succeed because it was not for proffit.  It succeded
because of the dedication of the people who started it, and the
following those founders were able to inspire. It's sustainable
because of the people who work on it. The fact that it is non for
proffit gives it certain advantages such as the fact that it can't be
subsumed by a for proffit.  Lots of free windows screen readers
entered and left the market in the past 10 years. NVDA is the only
one to thrive, much less survive, and it's because of the talendt,
and the management.

Then again, the fact that NVDA itself is non for proffit hasn't
prevented the organization from accepting grants and sponsorships
from for proffit companies, and whatever I may think of those
companies individually, the output from those grants contributed to
the general effectiveness of NVDA, which lead to more adoption which
lead to donation revinue, which lead to more improvements until we
have the body of work which now is viable enough to stand up to a
commercial product in the vast majority of situations.

So, we'll have to agree to disagree on this.  I've heard all the
arguments for nearly as long as you have.  I'll allow there was a
time when they may have made sense to one degree or another.
Certainly the first opticon and kurzweil reading machine costed
enormously more in terms of research and development than say the
knfb reader mobile app.  In fact, vast commercial uses for scanning,
ocr, text to speech, dictation, and other technologies developed for
disability communities are prevailant and highly intergrated into
modern society.  Accessibility legislation is between 25 and 50 years
old.  Commercial standards for developing things to be accessible are
well established and supported by legislation. Time and talent still
cost money, but we stand on the shoulders of giants.  It's not what
it was in the late 70's and early 80's.  Completely different
situation.

Best,

Erik

On October 2, 2017 5:25:39 PM "Gene" <gsasner@ripco.com> wrote:

That is not correct and I've seen that argument many times.  JAWS is
expensive because it is a specialized product with a tiny market.
If Windows had the number of users JAWS has, it would be
exorbitantly expensive as well.  It's mass production with enormous
customer bases that makes most manufactured products we use
inexpensive. You can argue about whether institutions could cause
the price of JAWS to be lower by negotiating, I don't know if the
owners of JAWS charge more than they need to to make a product.  But
anyone on this list who purchases or has purchased a sophisticated
computer program that sells to a very small audience will confirm
that such products are very expensive. Institutions may be
bureaucratic but they aren't fools. Entrepreneurs are creative and
inventive.  If it were possible to have a screen-reader with the
power and sophistication of JAWS for significantly less, someone
would have entered the market at a cheaper price.  They've had more
than two decades to do so in the case of Windows screen-readers.
Where are they, or even one?
The only way a powerful screen-reader has been developed that is
within the reach of a lot of blind people is to completely work
outside of the for profit model.  NVDA is free because it is not a
for profit product and relies on people working for about minimum
wage, grants, and volunteers to develop and create add ons.  Which
proves my point.  Someone else did fill the need for a screen-reader
for people who can't afford a for profit screen--reader but it was
outside of the for profit model.  Entrepreneurs are creative and
motivated enough that, as I said, if a for profit screen-reader
could be developed  for a significantly cheaper price, it would have
been long ago.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* erik burggraaf <mailto:erik@erik-burggraaf.com>
*Sent:* Monday, October 02, 2017 4:03 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] WebAim Screen Reader User Survey #7: Getting
The Word Out About NVDA

Accessibility laws change the game.  The market for jaws is
different from the market of most other products. The primary target
market doesn't actually use the product.  The reason commercial
screen readers are sustainable is that governments in developed
countrys have legislated that the government must accept the
financial cost of communication aids for people with print
disabilities as a means of leveling the playing field.  That is why
the cost of the tecchnologies has always been out of reach for most
blind consumers, and very little to do with the development cost and
comparitive small size of the market as most commercial access
technologists claim.

So, there's no evidence to suggest that vfo or any company is
planning to jack up prices even higher than they already are, but
there are legislative hooks that might allow them to if they wanted.

I really think though that they are battoning down and preparing to
ride out the end times with what they have. The consolidation has
pretty much taken place.  A few straglers haven't bought in or bowed
out, but they have unique markets of their own.

The government funding that constitutes the primary support for
products like jaws is on the severe decline as the use cases for the
products over cheeper less specialized alternatives growes less and
less by the day.  If the size of the market dictated the price as
they always claimed, then considering the dwindling share of the
market controlled by commercial AT, it makes sense that the price
would go up, especially in the case of VFO's new exclusivity
agreements in geographic regions that were either not controlled or
controlled by companies that are no more.  The odd thing is, with
NVDA distributed free as a noncommercial product, I doubt it falls
under the commercial exclusivity agreements anyhow.

Best,

Erik

On October 2, 2017 4:24:22 PM "Gene" <gsasner@ripco.com> wrote:

Why would the owners of JAWS commit suicide or strongly encourage
purchasers not to use their product by doing something ridiculous,
as you suggest? They won't.  I don't know if they will try
different prices as time goes on to get the most profit from the
most or optimum number of sales, but that is different from
behaving irrationally.  Is this part of the JAWS is greedy and can
charge anything it wants argument?  It doesn't matter in the
context of this argument, that I've heard for two decades with no
meaningful proof given, whether JAWS is greedy or not.  What
matters is that JAWS doesn't exist in a vacuum.  It may charge what
the market will bear but it still operates in a market.  If
institutions are willing to pay a price, JAWS may decide to charge
it.  But that doesn't mean that institutions are irrational. They
aren't going to accept a thousand percent price rise of a product
just because JAWS owners decide to try to charge it.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Sky Mundell <mailto:skyt@shaw.ca>
*Sent:* Monday, October 02, 2017 3:00 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] WebAim Screen Reader User Survey #7: Getting
The Word Out About NVDA

I totally agree with you Erick. The education institutions that
deliver equipment to students in Vancouver and around BC and here
in Victoria haven’t really embraced NVDA but I can see them
embracing NVDA sooner rather than later. Remember, FS always saw
its main competition, Window-Eyes as a threat. Since the main
competition is now gone, , eventually VFO could raise the price of
JAWS a lot higher, say, to $10000 or so, and that would force
educational institutions to go with NVDA.

*From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] *On Behalf
Of *erik burggraaf
*Sent:* Monday, October 02, 2017 10:12 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] WebAim Screen Reader User Survey #7: Getting
The Word Out About NVDA

The sample size is very small in these surveys,  but they
definitely show the paradigm shift and I won't be surprised at all
to see mobile, mac voiceover, and nvda useage up, and jaws useage
down.  Window-eyes use should fall right off the charts since the
product is discontinued.  This will help slow the skid of jaws, but
I think at least as many window-eyes switchers made it to NVDA as
to jaws, despite the fact that jaws 18 was a free upgrade for Many
window-eyes users.

Since the new paradigm puts the blind more or less on an equal
playing field, and social, legal and economic trends all support
moving in that direction it shouldn't be too surprising that blind
users want it more and more.  I have thought for years that 2021 is
about the final stopping point for old paradigm designs,
particularly the personal computer, but I can see a lot of
tradition going by the board by then.  This is all good for us, and
it's nice to have something concreet to demonstrate the trend we
can all see happening around us.

Have fun,

Erik

On October 2, 2017 12:57:37 AM "Sarah k Alawami"
<marrie12@gmail.com <mailto:marrie12@gmail.com>> wrote:

     Wow, interesting. I'm not surprised. I wonder what we'll see
     this year now that a lot of us are switching to nvda and or
     android and or voiceover.

     Take care



     On Oct 1, 2017, at 9:34 PM, Gene New Zealand
     <hurrikennyandopo@outlook.co.nz
<mailto:hurrikennyandopo@outlook.co.nz>> wrote:

     hi Bhavya

     I have been following the surveys after they  survey  has
finished.

     I have also been noticing that the number of jaws users have
     been dropping along with a few of the commercial screen users
     and magnifiers etc.

     Also the use of mobile units starting to rise as in the use of
     android and apple devices that can go portable.

     For me mostly home use is nvda 100 percent of the time and if
     mobile a android device.

     Gene nz

     On 10/1/2017 2:20 AM, Bhavya shah wrote:

         Dear all,

         Since almost a decade, WebAim, a non-profit web
accessibility

         consultancy organisation, has been conducting an annual
         (sometimes

         biennial) survey, which, as its name implies, attempts to
         gather

         statistics about the usage share of different screen
readers,

         technology (particularly Internet) accessibility trends,
         etc. so as to

         aid analysts, researchers, accessibility consultants,
sighted

         developers, and mainstream companies to get a quantified
         picture of

         the state of the AT industry.

         While this survey features participation from varied
         geographies,

         NVDA’s user base, at least in my personal view, has
always been

         understated. While 8% respondents of the first December
         2008 WebAim

         survey reported to be NVDA users, this figure has only
         increased to

         14% of respondents in its 2015 counterpart claiming to use
         NVDA as

         their primary screen reader and 41% using it commonly, a
         usage share

         substantially lower than NVDA’s commercial and more
         expensive screen

         reading alternatives.

         I think it would be a great way of playing our tiny part in
         getting

         the word out about NVDA’s viability and competency  if
all NVDA

         community members, users, testers and other related parties,

         particularly from second and third world developing regions
         which

         often remain silent for such surveys but where free and
         open source

         NVDA makes a prominent impact, take this survey and
         contribute to

         letting the world know about the size and standing of the
         NVDA user

         base.

         The URL of said survey is
https://webaim.org/projects/screenreadersurvey7/

         .

         It took me about ten minutes to fill this survey and the
         form was

         extremely accessible. Not only from an NVDA angle, but
         filling such

         surveys always brings out useful and reflective data,
         which, in turn,

         betters AT as a whole. Therefore, I urge everyone to take
         some time

         out for this survey so that we can make the data truly
         reflective of

         the actualities.

         Thanks.

         P.S. I am in no way affiliated to WebAim nor is my
         intention to merely

         promote this survey.

     --
     Image NVDA certified expert

     Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness
     related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net
     <http://www.accessibilitycentral.net/> Regardless of where you
     are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you
     can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their
     computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to
     you please visit
http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries
     (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified
     expert near you, please visit the following link
https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page
     contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from
     around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA
     expert exam.
--
Sincereley: Randy Barnett
Owner of Soundtique.
707-502-5575
1897 SE Dr.
Grants Pass, Or. 97526

<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=icon> Virus-free. www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=link>

<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>


Re: question about comparison between current versions of nvda since 2017.1 about stability

George McCoy <slr1bpz@...>
 

In my experience and this is only my experience, performance differs somewhat depending on the version of windows being run.

George

-----Original Message-----
From: zahra
Sent: Friday, October 06, 2017 12:40 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] question about comparison between current versions of nvda since 2017.1 about stability

i wish that know about the best version of nvda in general, not
specific for one version of windows.

On 10/6/17, George McCoy <slr1bpz@charter.net> wrote:
What version of Windows are you running?

George
-----Original Message-----
From: zahra
Sent: Friday, October 06, 2017 4:35 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] question about comparison between current versions of
nvda since 2017.1 about stability

thanks so much for your reply.
i am waiting for other's experience and advice in this regard.
God bless you all.

On 10/6/17, mcLeod stinnett <macks75205@gmail.com> wrote:


--
from mack I use firefox 52 ESR with n v d a 2017 1 I use windows 7 64
bit.
I like 2017 1.




--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the entire creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration from prophet Mohammad is:
indeed, imam husayn is the beacon of guidance and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
www.al-islam.org







--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the entire creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration from prophet Mohammad is:
indeed, imam husayn is the beacon of guidance and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
www.al-islam.org


Re: removing emails in gmail in bulk

 

--
Brian  Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1703, Build 15063  (dot level on request - it changes too often to keep in signature)

     The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement.  But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth.

            Niels Bohr

 

 


Re: removing emails in gmail in bulk

Sarah k Alawami
 

I just end up checking the boxes. The ris a way to select all messages in standard view but I have forgotten the key strokes.

Take care and hope that helps a bit, even though I don't think it did.

Sarah k Alawami: Owner of Alawami Productions, where quality is key.
Check us out at http://alawamiproductions.com/listen
and for the itunes page go here.
https://itunes.apple.com/us/artist/sarah-alawami/id268693059

On Oct 6, 2017, at 11:30 AM, Tony James <megatronjames@gmail.com> wrote:

hi, i tried to remove a lot of emails from my gmail account, but for the life of me I cannot find the select all messages link. I tried switching from basic html view to standard view and even tried it with firefox but no luck. is there a way to do this with nvda? if so, could someone please explain how step by step. thx in advance




removing emails in gmail in bulk

Tony James <megatronjames@...>
 

hi, i tried to remove a lot of emails from my gmail account, but for the life of me I cannot find the select all messages link.  I tried switching from basic html view to standard view and even tried it with firefox but no luck.  is there a way to do this with nvda?  if so, could someone please explain how step by step.  thx in advance


Re: question about comparison between current versions of nvda since 2017.1 about stability

Sarah k Alawami
 

I would just update to the snap shots and report bugs. If you don't have time for that just update to what ever is out in the public and report bugs. You are not very clear when you say "best" as other people have said. What would you like your experience to be like. Please give good examples and use cases and be very detailed in your email.

On Oct 6, 2017, at 11:02 AM, Antony Stone <antony.stone@nvda.open.source.it> wrote:

You would have to tell us what "best" means before anyone could answer that.

Different people have different ideas about what is best; we don't know what
your idea of "best" for NVDA is.

Antony.

On Friday 06 October 2017 at 19:40:15, zahra wrote:

i wish that know about the best version of nvda in general, not
specific for one version of windows.

On 10/6/17, George McCoy wrote:
What version of Windows are you running?

George
-----Original Message-----
From: zahra
Sent: Friday, October 06, 2017 4:35 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] question about comparison between current versions of
nvda since 2017.1 about stability

thanks so much for your reply.
i am waiting for other's experience and advice in this regard.

On 10/6/17, mcLeod stinnett <macks75205@gmail.com> wrote:
--
from mack I use firefox 52 ESR with n v d a 2017 1 I use windows 7 64
bit.
I like 2017 1.
--
This email was created using 100% recycled electrons.

Please reply to the list;
please *don't* CC me.



Re: question about comparison between current versions of nvda since 2017.1 about stability

Antony Stone
 

You would have to tell us what "best" means before anyone could answer that.

Different people have different ideas about what is best; we don't know what
your idea of "best" for NVDA is.

Antony.

On Friday 06 October 2017 at 19:40:15, zahra wrote:

i wish that know about the best version of nvda in general, not
specific for one version of windows.

On 10/6/17, George McCoy wrote:
What version of Windows are you running?

George
-----Original Message-----
From: zahra
Sent: Friday, October 06, 2017 4:35 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] question about comparison between current versions of
nvda since 2017.1 about stability

thanks so much for your reply.
i am waiting for other's experience and advice in this regard.

On 10/6/17, mcLeod stinnett <macks75205@gmail.com> wrote:
--
from mack I use firefox 52 ESR with n v d a 2017 1 I use windows 7 64
bit.
I like 2017 1.
--
This email was created using 100% recycled electrons.

Please reply to the list;
please *don't* CC me.


Re: question about comparison between current versions of nvda since 2017.1 about stability

 

i wish that know about the best version of nvda in general, not
specific for one version of windows.

On 10/6/17, George McCoy <slr1bpz@charter.net> wrote:
What version of Windows are you running?

George
-----Original Message-----
From: zahra
Sent: Friday, October 06, 2017 4:35 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] question about comparison between current versions of
nvda since 2017.1 about stability

thanks so much for your reply.
i am waiting for other's experience and advice in this regard.
God bless you all.

On 10/6/17, mcLeod stinnett <macks75205@gmail.com> wrote:


--
from mack I use firefox 52 ESR with n v d a 2017 1 I use windows 7 64
bit.
I like 2017 1.




--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the entire creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration from prophet Mohammad is:
indeed, imam husayn is the beacon of guidance and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
www.al-islam.org






--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the entire creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration from prophet Mohammad is:
indeed, imam husayn is the beacon of guidance and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
www.al-islam.org


Re: urgent tb help

Sarah k Alawami
 

Cloud OCR will let you click on things. Try that.

On Oct 6, 2017, at 7:05 AM, Brian Moore <bmoore@screenreview.org> wrote:

hi. yeah, could try ocr but that won't help me manipulate the control which is what I need to do.



Contact me on skype: brian.moore
follow me on twitter:
http://www.twitter.com/bmoore123

On 10/06/2017 9:58 AM, Tyler Spivey wrote:
Looks like that control isn't accessible. Flat review doesn't seem to work, so you'll need to try OCR.
On 10/6/2017 6:40 AM, Brian Moore wrote:
Hi all. So I have a few imap accounts. There are folders like spam and
in particular .oldmessages which don't seem to be subscribed to
automatically.


I went to the root of the account and went to the subscribe dialogue in
the file menu of tb to see if I could manually add these folders.
However, I can't find a way with with nvda to read the folder list so
not sure if these folders are showing up.


Tried with jaws as well and no joy there either.


anyone got any ideas of how I can force folders to be subscribed to
manually with thunderbird?


If I have to, I will use another email client as there are messages,
particularly in .old messages which I need access to.


Thanks.

Brian.







Re: controling the computer with nvda and braille displays

John J. Boyer
 

I am wondering why you don't want to use the computer keyboard. If you don't know touch typing it would be a good idea
to learn it. I have a Focus 40 that I use all the time. I don't think there is a key combination for alt_f4, for
example. I've found that trying to control the computer completely from the Braille keyboard is too much trouble to be
worth it. I do hope you can get a larger display. 14 cells is rather restrictive. I'v had to use a Focus 14 at one time.

Blessings,
John

On Fri, Oct 06, 2017 at 12:13:20AM +0000, amir din wrote:
Hi,
Can I use my braille display, currently focus 14 from freedom scientific, to control the computer without touching the keyboard full time? Because I cannot find all keystrokes that allow me to control the machine without touching the keyboard, although there are some keystrokes, such as alt tab, but not full keystroke, such as pressing ctrl+a, alt+f4 from the braille display. Any idea?
Thanks

Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10
--
John J. Boyer
Email: john.boyer@abilitiessoft.org
website: http://www.abilitiessoft.org
Status: Company dissolved but website and email addresses live.
Location: Madison, Wisconsin, USA
Mission: developing assistive technology software and providing STEM services
that are available at no cost


Re: WebAim Screen Reader User Survey #7: Getting The Word Out About NVDA

Randy Barnett <randy@...>
 

In 95 I was shown both and told they were both good products it was a personal choice as to witch one to use. They didn't mention windows bridge though.
On 10/6/2017 5:43 AM, Sally Kiebdaj wrote:

Whole-heartedly agree here! I was raised in Indiana which is probably the only reason I was offered Window-Eyes by my Voc Rehab office. Many others I met out of state a guide dog school and college had never heard of Window-Eyes let alone been given the chance to test it before being provided JAWS. In the case that they had heard of it, they assumed it was incomplete or inferior because it had never been recommended or offered to them.


Too often, the able-bodied powers that be --for a variety of reasons including lack of interest or bandwidth-- learn 1 version of adaptive technology for a given disability and recommend only that one for ever after. Even if their job is to advise or help those new to the disability, they do not take the time to research and present all options. Government funding and contracts may be a large part of this but so is ignorance. I worked for a few years at a prominent eye hospital that had a rehab department and no one in the building knew about window-eyes or that android devices were used by the blind. In this case, I know that there were no contracts or government funding--- only the common mental shorthand of stereotyping the outgroup. Because they ad seen more than one blind person with an iPhone or had heard of JAWS, clearly all people used iPhones and JAWS because that was all they had. Funnily enough they didn't even realize that VoiceOver existed on Mac OSX since the JAWS stereotype predated iOS.


I am grateful for the choice I had early on and the fact that I knew that the most common option wasn't the only and wasn't necessarily the best for me. In my case and at that time, my simultaneous use of ZoomText made Window-Eyes a much better option.


Cheers,

Sally


On 10/5/2017 6:44 PM, Travis Siegel wrote:

The only statement in this thread I have to take exception to is the statement that jaws was providing access before anyone else.  This statement is completely false.

The very first screen reader ever for windows was windowbridge.  Windowbridge had a lot of firsts when it comes to screen reader functionality, including some things that still don't exist in any screen reader available today, such as mouse navigation via locking vertical or horizontal movement so you could find things on the screen easier.

It also was the first screen reader to use the caps lock key as a modifier, (something each and every screen reader has copied since), and it had a lot of other firsts.  Just because a program is the most popular doesn't make it either the best, or the most advanced, or even the one with the most features.  Jaws is popular yes, but a lot of that popularity is due to the fact that state agencies and other government organizations use it and their clients use it, it isn't the mostpopular because it outstrips every other screen reader in the market with it's feature set, capabilities and it's usability.  Folks really should keep that in mind when deiscussing screen readers.  There's a reason there are multiple (and always have been) multiple screen readers.  Everyone knows, there is no such thing as one size fits all when it comes to screen readers, no program can be everything to everyone, and the screen reader market is no exception.  Each screen reader has it's pros and it's cons, and what eacyh user uses should be up to that user, only that usually isn't the case.  When I worked for a rather large computer company as a programmer and a tech support person, I did not get to choose what screen reader I wanted to use, I was told that I was going to use jaws, and that I was going to like it, because that's the only option I had.  As it turns out, the copy of jaws I got was an illegal install that wasn't registered to me, and I had to spend my own money to purchase a program I didn't want, just so I wouldn't be liable if some sort of audit came through.  Of course, said audit never did come through, but the point is, you never know what can/will happen, and if you aren't prepared, you could get in a lot of trouble, even for things you didn't do.  Had I had my choice of screen reader, it would have been window-eyes, but I wasn't asked, and I wasn't even consulted about the question.  Shortly afterwords, my case was closed by the visual services department, and I never got a single piece of help from them, even though it's their job to provide assistance with this very thing. 

This message has strayed way off topic, and even into topics I didn't intend to bring up, but it all goes together, so there it is, make of it what you like.

The point though, is that whatever the screen reader is, it really should be up to the user to choose what they want to use.  If they don't know, then showing them the options and allowing them to choose would be nice, but often times, that isn't what ahppens, and because of that, there is a false impression created that the program of choice (or the device of choice for that matter) is the best/first/what have you, when it could very just as easily be the bottom of the barrel, but nobody knows, because there is no option given.


On 10/4/2017 8:50 AM, erik burggraaf wrote:

Hi Randy,

On October 3, 2017 11:54:34 PM "Randy Barnett" <randy@...> wrote:

Jaws has gone down in price over the years.


I'll give you this.  Looking at the freedom scientific website, I can see that the home edition stands at $900, and the professional stands at $1100.  These prices are about 2 or 3 hundred dollars cheeper than when I last had ocasion to keep track some four years ago.  I guess that's about a 20% nock off.  If it doesn't seem like much, that's because 9 c's is far out of reach of the home user.  IE, government is still the primary target market for this product and I believe all my former arguments to retain validity. 
FS has been fairly competative on hardware pricing I will give them that.  I don't like most of their hardware, but I know many people who do and the price points make it attractive to both those who use it and those who pay.  Of course, people who use fs hardware naturally tend to gravitate to fs software and vice versa.  This is certainly not always the case, but I see it often. 

Even more if you figure in
inflation. It has not gone up at all. Nor is it likely too.

No, I don't buy the inflation bit either, not considering the take home of the top brass at VFO.  The pricing includes all overhead including reasonable inflation, so no.  Plus, we're still debunking the research and development argument.  Each release of jaws does not require the scratch construction of a new speech synthesizer, video display chain driver, and accessibility api among other core functions.  Programmers are talented people who diserve to be paid accordingly, but the scale of the research required to maintain jaws now is nowhere near on the scale it would have been in the late 90's when there were no such things as accessibility standards.

Also, Gene touched on it and others may have too.  They're not just selling jaws.  They're selling training at a premium.  I've seen quotes for scripting ranging from $150 per work hour, to $150 per code line.  I'm working on a human rights employment case right now and just to get an audit of what needs to be fixed in this one company from an accessibility consultant is going to cost $15000.  Just to find out what's wrong.  Now, VFO owns one of the supposed leading consulting firms in this area, which means they can test with only jaws, and tout scripting at a premium.  Also, you notice, they don't tell you how much it costs for remote access anymore?  The ominous, "call for pricing".  Let's not waste any clean-x on VFO's proffit margin shall we.

I am not a


big fan of VFO and criticize it often but they are like any other
specialized software. Have you ever price CAD, Audio design, CNC
mapping  and other similar software? they far exceed the cost of Jaws.

Nop, Gene tried this one too, and I didn't have the time to address it but lets just say... No.  If I buy jaws,  it's money spent playing catch up.  There is no doubt the benefits of hiring blind employees.  It's the law, and I need to comply.  There are lots of perripheral benefits, but no direct cost recovery.  I mearly pay to supplement what I already have.  IE, I have a great employee and an inaccessible workplace and jaws glues the two together.  But I might be able to find another great employee who doesn't need jaws, and unless I'm planning to start a sideline in some area of accessibility work, I'm not seeing  a direct return on my jaws or ansilary services like scripting.

The argument holds less water in the case of retirees who go blind later in life or other home based use cases.  How many regular people have autocad in their house in case they want to doodle?

If I'm an engineer, I buy autocad.  It is crutial to my job.  It accellerates my workflow and directly earnes me money.  If I had a professional recording studio, I'd pay top dollar for protools.  Thousands or 10's of thousands of dollars for a licence is nothing, because knowledge and use of these tools generates direct return on investment in the millians or greater.  Jaws does not offer anything close to that, so there's no comparison to be made at all.

Do I want cheaper Jaws? Of course who wants to pay more for anything!
Dont forget Jaws was providing access long before anyone else and it was
very good access at that. It has taken over 20years for someone to
provide a no cost alternative for the PC.
On 10/3/2017 7:58 PM, Gene wrote:
> It should be pointed out that System Access isn't at all equivalent to
> JAWS or Window-eyes. It cost less because it was much less capable and
> didn't have to work with nearly as many programs.  And it was often
> purchased, not as a standalone product, but with the SAM Network.  I
> don't know if I have the name just right.  But it could be purchased
> either alone or as an integrated product and I wouldn't be surprised
> if a lot or most purchasers purchased the whole package, which may
> have further led to lowering costs.  Agencies wouldn't have purchased
> it in general because their thrust was employment and System Access
> wasn't intended as an employment product.
> It was intended to give Internet Access, access to certain e-mail
> programs and to simple word processing.  It cost about half as much as
> JAWS and Window-eyes and it was perhaps one-third as powerful.
> Around 2000, whoever owned JAWS at that time attempted to address the
> affordability problem by making a product, Connect Outloud.  I believe
> you could buy it and it also came, bundled for free with Openbook. 
> What I heard when it was discontinued after perhaps two or three years
> was that there wasn't enough demand to justify continuing it.
> It provided Internet access, access to Winamp, Outlook Express,
> Wordpad, and it may have provided access to one or two other programs.
> I'm not sure why it wasn't popular at the time, given the number of
> home users who didn't need a powerful screen-reader and the price of
> JAWS and Window-eyes and, as I recall, it was before System Access.
> But those who insist on viewing whoever owns JAWS throughout its
> history as predators, perhaps they should consider this information.
> As far as whether HJAWs developers do enough work to justify the price
> currently, I don't know.
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Lino Morales <mailto:linomorales001@...>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 03, 2017 6:08 PM
> *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] WebAim Screen Reader User Survey #7: Getting The
> Word Out About NVDA
>
> Great post Eric. I wasn't around in the 70's or didn't know jack horse
> maneur about AT. Viva la NVDA!
>
>
> On 10/2/2017 5:50 PM, erik burggraaf wrote:
>>
>> Lots of for proffit companies made free or low cost screen readers.
>> Serotek for one.  Apple for another.  I'd say both companies were
>> successful to one degree or another.  So, why didn't we see
>> governments lining up to pay for system access?  Well, to a lesser
>> extent some did, but if screen readers cost less, then the funding
>> becomes less and the portfoleos of nondisabled people making big
>> money from accessibility legislation shrink.  We certainly don't want
>> that.  But even at that, system access and the system access network
>> lasted for a very long time, largely on consumer driven support.
>>
>> NVDA didn't succeed because it was not for proffit.  It succeded
>> because of the dedication of the people who started it, and the
>> following those founders were able to inspire. It's sustainable
>> because of the people who work on it. The fact that it is non for
>> proffit gives it certain advantages such as the fact that it can't be
>> subsumed by a for proffit.  Lots of free windows screen readers
>> entered and left the market in the past 10 years.  NVDA is the only
>> one to thrive, much less survive, and it's because of the talendt,
>> and the management.
>>
>> Then again, the fact that NVDA itself is non for proffit hasn't
>> prevented the organization from accepting grants and sponsorships
>> from for proffit companies, and whatever I may think of those
>> companies individually, the output from those grants contributed to
>> the general effectiveness of NVDA, which lead to more adoption which
>> lead to donation revinue, which lead to more improvements until we
>> have the body of work which now is viable enough to stand up to a
>> commercial product in the vast majority of situations.
>>
>> So, we'll have to agree to disagree on this.  I've heard all the
>> arguments for nearly as long as you have.  I'll allow there was a
>> time when they may have made sense to one degree or another. 
>> Certainly the first opticon and kurzweil reading machine costed
>> enormously more in terms of research and development than say the
>> knfb reader mobile app.  In fact, vast commercial uses for scanning,
>> ocr, text to speech, dictation, and other technologies developed for
>> disability communities are prevailant and highly intergrated into
>> modern society.  Accessibility legislation is between 25 and 50 years
>> old.  Commercial standards for developing things to be accessible are
>> well established and supported by legislation.  Time and talent still
>> cost money, but we stand on the shoulders of giants.  It's not what
>> it was in the late 70's and early 80's.  Completely different situation.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Erik
>>
>> On October 2, 2017 5:25:39 PM "Gene" <gsasner@...> wrote:
>>
>>> That is not correct and I've seen that argument many times.  JAWS is
>>> expensive because it is a specialized product with a tiny market. 
>>> If Windows had the number of users JAWS has, it would be 
>>> exorbitantly expensive as well.  It's mass production with enormous
>>> customer bases that makes most manufactured products we use
>>> inexpensive. You can argue about whether institutions could cause
>>> the price of JAWS to be lower by negotiating, I don't know if the
>>> owners of JAWS charge more than they need to to make a product.  But
>>> anyone on this list who purchases or has purchased a sophisticated
>>> computer program that sells to a very small audience will confirm
>>> that such products are very expensive. Institutions may be
>>> bureaucratic but they aren't fools.  Entrepreneurs are creative and
>>> inventive.  If it were possible to have a screen-reader with the
>>> power and sophistication of JAWS for significantly less, someone
>>> would have entered the market at a cheaper price.  They've had more
>>> than two decades to do so in the case of Windows screen-readers. 
>>> Where are they, or even one?
>>> The only way a powerful screen-reader has been developed that is
>>> within the reach of a lot of blind people is to completely work
>>> outside of the for profit model.  NVDA is free because it is not a
>>> for profit product and relies on people working for about minimum
>>> wage, grants, and volunteers to develop and create add ons.  Which
>>> proves my point.  Someone else did fill the need for a screen-reader
>>> for people who can't afford a for profit screen--reader but it was
>>> outside of the for profit model.  Entrepreneurs are creative and
>>> motivated enough that, as I said, if a for profit screen-reader
>>> could be developed  for a significantly cheaper price, it would have
>>> been long ago.
>>> Gene
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> *From:* erik burggraaf <mailto:erik@...>
>>> *Sent:* Monday, October 02, 2017 4:03 PM
>>> *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] WebAim Screen Reader User Survey #7: Getting
>>> The Word Out About NVDA
>>>
>>> Accessibility laws change the game.  The market for jaws is
>>> different from the market of most other products. The primary target
>>> market doesn't actually use the product.  The reason commercial
>>> screen readers are sustainable is that governments in developed
>>> countrys have legislated that the government must accept the
>>> financial cost of communication aids for people with print
>>> disabilities as a means of leveling the playing field.  That is why
>>> the cost of the tecchnologies has always been out of reach for most
>>> blind consumers, and very little to do with the development cost and
>>> comparitive small size of the market as most commercial access
>>> technologists claim.
>>>
>>> So, there's no evidence to suggest that vfo or any company is
>>> planning to jack up prices even higher than they already are, but
>>> there are legislative hooks that might allow them to if they wanted.
>>>
>>> I really think though that they are battoning down and preparing to
>>> ride out the end times with what they have.  The consolidation has
>>> pretty much taken place.  A few straglers haven't bought in or bowed
>>> out, but they have unique markets of their own.
>>>
>>> The government funding that constitutes the primary support for
>>> products like jaws is on the severe decline as the use cases for the
>>> products over cheeper less specialized alternatives growes less and
>>> less by the day.  If the size of the market dictated the price as
>>> they always claimed, then considering the dwindling share of the
>>> market controlled by commercial AT, it makes sense that the price
>>> would go up, especially in the case of VFO's new exclusivity
>>> agreements in geographic regions that were either not controlled or
>>> controlled by companies that are no more.  The odd thing is, with
>>> NVDA distributed free as a noncommercial product, I doubt it falls
>>> under the commercial exclusivity agreements anyhow.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Erik
>>>
>>> On October 2, 2017 4:24:22 PM "Gene" <gsasner@...> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Why would the owners of JAWS commit suicide or strongly encourage
>>>> purchasers not to use their product by doing something ridiculous,
>>>> as you suggest? They won't.  I don't know if they will try
>>>> different prices as time goes on to get the most profit from the
>>>> most or optimum number of sales, but that is different from
>>>> behaving irrationally.  Is this part of the JAWS is greedy and can
>>>> charge anything it wants argument?  It doesn't matter in the
>>>> context of this argument, that I've heard for two decades with no
>>>> meaningful proof given, whether JAWS is greedy or not.  What
>>>> matters is that JAWS doesn't exist in a vacuum.  It may charge what
>>>> the market will bear but it still operates in a market.  If
>>>> institutions are willing to pay a price, JAWS may decide to charge
>>>> it.  But that doesn't mean that institutions are irrational. They
>>>> aren't going to accept a thousand percent price rise of a product
>>>> just because JAWS owners decide to try to charge it.
>>>> Gene
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> *From:* Sky Mundell <mailto:skyt@...>
>>>> *Sent:* Monday, October 02, 2017 3:00 PM
>>>> *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] WebAim Screen Reader User Survey #7: Getting
>>>> The Word Out About NVDA
>>>>
>>>> I totally agree with you Erick. The education institutions that
>>>> deliver equipment to students in Vancouver and around BC and here
>>>> in Victoria haven’t really embraced NVDA but I can see them
>>>> embracing NVDA sooner rather than later. Remember, FS always saw
>>>> its main competition, Window-Eyes as a threat. Since the main
>>>> competition is now gone, , eventually VFO could raise the price of
>>>> JAWS a lot higher, say, to $10000 or so, and that would force
>>>> educational institutions to go with NVDA.
>>>>
>>>> *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] *On Behalf
>>>> Of *erik burggraaf
>>>> *Sent:* Monday, October 02, 2017 10:12 AM
>>>> *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] WebAim Screen Reader User Survey #7: Getting
>>>> The Word Out About NVDA
>>>>
>>>> The sample size is very small in these surveys,  but they
>>>> definitely show the paradigm shift and I won't be surprised at all
>>>> to see mobile, mac voiceover, and nvda useage up, and jaws useage
>>>> down.  Window-eyes use should fall right off the charts since the
>>>> product is discontinued.  This will help slow the skid of jaws, but
>>>> I think at least as many window-eyes switchers made it to NVDA as
>>>> to jaws, despite the fact that jaws 18 was a free upgrade for Many
>>>> window-eyes users.
>>>>
>>>> Since the new paradigm puts the blind more or less on an equal
>>>> playing field, and social, legal and economic trends all support
>>>> moving in that direction it shouldn't be too surprising that blind
>>>> users want it more and more.  I have thought for years that 2021 is
>>>> about the final stopping point for old paradigm designs,
>>>> particularly the personal computer, but I can see a lot of
>>>> tradition going by the board by then.  This is all good for us, and
>>>> it's nice to have something concreet to demonstrate the trend we
>>>> can all see happening around us.
>>>>
>>>> Have fun,
>>>>
>>>> Erik
>>>>
>>>> On October 2, 2017 12:57:37 AM "Sarah k Alawami"
>>>> <marrie12@... <mailto:marrie12@...>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>     Wow, interesting. I'm not surprised. I wonder what we'll see
>>>>     this year now that a lot of us are switching to nvda and or
>>>>     android and or voiceover.
>>>>
>>>>     Take care
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     On Oct 1, 2017, at 9:34 PM, Gene New Zealand
>>>>     <hurrikennyandopo@...
>>>>     <mailto:hurrikennyandopo@...>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>     hi Bhavya
>>>>
>>>>     I have been following the surveys after they  survey  has finished.
>>>>
>>>>     I have also been noticing that the number of jaws users have
>>>>     been dropping along with a few of the commercial screen users
>>>>     and magnifiers etc.
>>>>
>>>>     Also the use of mobile units starting to rise as in the use of
>>>>     android and apple devices that can go portable.
>>>>
>>>>     For me mostly home use is nvda 100 percent of the time and if
>>>>     mobile a android device.
>>>>
>>>>     Gene nz
>>>>
>>>>     On 10/1/2017 2:20 AM, Bhavya shah wrote:
>>>>
>>>>         Dear all,
>>>>
>>>>         Since almost a decade, WebAim, a non-profit web accessibility
>>>>
>>>>         consultancy organisation, has been conducting an annual
>>>>         (sometimes
>>>>
>>>>         biennial) survey, which, as its name implies, attempts to
>>>>         gather
>>>>
>>>>         statistics about the usage share of different screen readers,
>>>>
>>>>         technology (particularly Internet) accessibility trends,
>>>>         etc. so as to
>>>>
>>>>         aid analysts, researchers, accessibility consultants, sighted
>>>>
>>>>         developers, and mainstream companies to get a quantified
>>>>         picture of
>>>>
>>>>         the state of the AT industry.
>>>>
>>>>         While this survey features participation from varied
>>>>         geographies,
>>>>
>>>>         NVDA’s user base, at least in my personal view, has always been
>>>>
>>>>         understated. While 8% respondents of the first December
>>>>         2008 WebAim
>>>>
>>>>         survey reported to be NVDA users, this figure has only
>>>>         increased to
>>>>
>>>>         14% of respondents in its 2015 counterpart claiming to use
>>>>         NVDA as
>>>>
>>>>         their primary screen reader and 41% using it commonly, a
>>>>         usage share
>>>>
>>>>         substantially lower than NVDA’s commercial and more
>>>>         expensive screen
>>>>
>>>>         reading alternatives.
>>>>
>>>>         I think it would be a great way of playing our tiny part in
>>>>         getting
>>>>
>>>>         the word out about NVDA’s viability and competency  if all NVDA
>>>>
>>>>         community members, users, testers and other related parties,
>>>>
>>>>         particularly from second and third world developing regions
>>>>         which
>>>>
>>>>         often remain silent for such surveys but where free and
>>>>         open source
>>>>
>>>>         NVDA makes a prominent impact, take this survey and
>>>>         contribute to
>>>>
>>>>         letting the world know about the size and standing of the
>>>>         NVDA user
>>>>
>>>>         base.
>>>>
>>>>         The URL of said survey is
>>>>         https://webaim.org/projects/screenreadersurvey7/
>>>>
>>>>         .
>>>>
>>>>         It took me about ten minutes to fill this survey and the
>>>>         form was
>>>>
>>>>         extremely accessible. Not only from an NVDA angle, but
>>>>         filling such
>>>>
>>>>         surveys always brings out useful and reflective data,
>>>>         which, in turn,
>>>>
>>>>         betters AT as a whole. Therefore, I urge everyone to take
>>>>         some time
>>>>
>>>>         out for this survey so that we can make the data truly
>>>>         reflective of
>>>>
>>>>         the actualities.
>>>>
>>>>         Thanks.
>>>>
>>>>         P.S. I am in no way affiliated to WebAim nor is my
>>>>         intention to merely
>>>>
>>>>         promote this survey.
>>>>
>>>>     --
>>>>     Image NVDA certified expert
>>>>
>>>>     Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness
>>>>     related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net
>>>>     <http://www.accessibilitycentral.net/> Regardless of where you
>>>>     are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you
>>>>     can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their
>>>>     computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to
>>>>     you please visit
>>>>     http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries
>>>>     (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified
>>>>     expert near you, please visit the following link
>>>>     https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page
>>>>     contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from
>>>>     around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA
>>>>     expert exam.
>>>>
>
>

--
Sincereley: Randy Barnett
Owner of Soundtique.
707-502-5575
1897 SE Dr.
Grants Pass, Or. 97526



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-- 
Sincereley: Randy Barnett
Owner of Soundtique.
707-502-5575
1897 SE Dr.
Grants Pass, Or. 97526