Date   

Again about invisible objects

Marco Oros
 

Hi!

I have written about invisible objects in Wordpress.com. Have You notice also this thing in some websites?

I have couple of informations. This is not just a problem of Mozilla Firefox, but for example, Google chrome after It shows an empty webpage.

Problem wasn't fixed, ofcourse, but I wrote about It on WP.com forums. Nextly, Wordpress wrote about accessibility in Support.

But, I don't know, if this is just problem of Firefox. I think, that It isn't.

I have noticed, that I can for example use Touchpad for those objects, but It is not very good.

I would like to find some alternative way, I am littlebid frustrated of It.

Thank You

Marco


Re: NVDA 2017.3 and Outlook 2003

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

NVDA doesn't work in windows 98.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of zahra
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2017 11:11 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA 2017.3 and Outlook 2003

hi brian, gene nz, antony and robert thanks extremely for your support!
i realy wish that nvda continues support all windows versions forever!
even if one person can update to newer windows versions, maybe goes to one place that even use windows 98!
what does the blind person should do in this situation?

even i cant do anything that my favorite softwares continue support my windows, i can use anything that i wish forever, even in the other decades!

On 10/13/17, Robert Mendoza <lowvisiontek@gmail.com> wrote:
I totally agreed with Gene Nz about his message. These are the fact
that we are facing here in the 3rd world country. I am not ashamed for
where I live for, but before I lost my sight I could able to work in
multi-company and globally had experience for 10 years in computing.
Until such time and due to in forbidden circumstances I lost my sight
in
2012 which forced me to stopped, and need to recuperate after the very
extensive illness. And it took me for two years to get back again in
the cyberspace for some reason I was looking for resources that could
aid my mobility but it turns out that there is little chance I got
from the local agency here. Though there is NGO or non-profit offices
helping blind people here but it is not sufficient to provide all the
adaptive devices that I could used with so rather to spend me and used
my saving instead to buy new machine but again the problem never stop
cause I need a screen reader. We have jaws that is available here but
kinda expensive and with the help of my family and good friends they
searched for nvda that is free. That is how my journey begin and
continue my passion in computing, and because of the determination and
will of passion in computers I get involve with other by helping
others who could not afford nor to have knowledge to use of computers
and etc in my own little way to share my knowledge into them. That is
my advocacy to propagate to used nvda as the alternative screen reader
instead of jaws but never forced them to strictly focus with other or
one screen instead just to explore there mind, and rather to look that
really suits on there needs. However, due to demand of
commercialization of rapid changes in the software they decided to use
nvda as there primary screen reader cause I may say nvda is likely to
be consider as premium applications to be reliable. And, that is how I
would took the opportunity to thanks all the contributors,developers,
and other agency to support nvda to continue developing to improves
ones life. To share this in order of us could have freedom to
communicate Again, having a choice is not a key here but how one
persons could have to be not to condemn others by not having not to
update to the software they wanted to use and not of us here forbids
if they like or prefer to used old or unsupported software. I am not
forcing them nor to promote as well pirated software here The idea is
that we aim for good relations instead of hatred by forcing them to update to were they could not afford.

Robert Mendoza

On 10/13/2017 4:38 AM, Gene New Zealand wrote:

Hi


That might be in a first world country though.

We might be lucky and get funding or some one else pays the bill.


Not in our country here but i have seen people on the list where the
government will provide a braille display to ones who use braille. It
does not happen here and we are a first world country.

Here my disibility allowance will pay for a screen reader or video
magnifier if i need one but would rather use nvda for my screen reader.


You have to remember that there are people from other countries on
this list and they will be from a as they say a third world country.


they might be lucky and have a christian group or another purchase it
for them. Also the wages if any in some of these countries people in
a first world country would not even work for them.

They might even have to use pirated software for there screen reader
if they did not know of the nvda screen reader.


Only a couple of weeks ago i got contacted and a christian group was
going to buy a computer for a person I forgot the name of the country
but it was a third world one and they were also going to drop a copy
of nvda onto it. I also mentioned they could have as many copies of
nvda as they like for other computers etc I also said about the price
of jaws and they did not even want to go there.

Now they know of NVDA that could make a real difference when they go
into some of these countries. But only for the visually impaired and
blind.



I do agree things need to move on like going from a horse to a car
etc but not every one can do it and this is more in a third world country.


Just look around in a third world country and see how well we have
it. We complain when we have no internet or power for a short period
of time. Try patchy internet or maybe power for 2 hours a day or none.

We are lucky we are not in a war zone either.


Also you have to remember English might be a second language and it
might not come out right. yes there are translators you can use from
off the net if you have it.


it might not be the case of the one in the thread or it could be.


They should not have to justify either why they can not upgrade
either. If they mentioned it and they said they were from a third
world country you might be surprised how many there may be on the list.


have a look at the nvda user statistics then figure how many of them
are from them.


the link to this page is
http://community.nvda-project.org/usersByCountry.html
<http://community.nvda-project.org/usersByCountry.html>

I am not sure if all the countries are mentioned and they are the
ones where nvda can contact the internet each day.


If there is no internet or patchy internet it may be even higher the
amount of nvda users.


In countries like that would they even get funding for a screen
reader etc?


So yes some of us can afford to move on with upgrades to a computer
or buy a new one etc but not all of us can.


Gene nz






On 10/13/2017 4:45 AM, Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
Hi, Brian,

I understand that there might be difficult situations as to why
people can't afford a new computer. What I have a problem with is
that this person expects the rest of us to conform to her world. She
expects developers to keep an old system going and that's
impossible. Like I said before, it's like asking a manufacturer to
keep developing parts for an old wringer washing machine when they
don't even make them anymore. There are organizations that are
willing to help people get either new or refurbished computer. I
didn't start out with a brand-new computer. My first one was an old
windows 98 computer that I got from Computers for the Blind in Texas.

Rosemarie

-----Original Message-----
From:nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2017 1:13 AM To:nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA 2017.3 and Outlook 2003

It can be difficult for some people. I think we are not really
appreciating that not everyone can do this successfully or afford to
do so either.
I think saying i don't see why is a little bit like saying I have
no problem getting water, I use the rain, but if you live in the
desert, then any rain is unlikely to foll your tanks!
It is what it is and people have to work around that.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rosemarie Chavarria"<knitqueen2007@gmail.com>
To:<nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2017 6:06 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA 2017.3 and Outlook 2003


I still don't get it. You keep saying there are personal reasons
that you can't update. None of the rest of us have this problem.



-----Original Message-----
From:nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
zahra
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 9:47 PM To:nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA 2017.3 and Outlook 2003

there is no verse in the quran, but for me is sin updating for
reasons that i cant explane in a public place!

On 10/12/17, Rosemarie Chavarria<knitqueen2007@gmail.com> wrote:
It's one thing to want to stay with XP but don't demand that the
rest of us conform to you. You don't have that right.



-----Original Message-----
From:nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
zahra
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 8:05 PM To:nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA 2017.3 and Outlook 2003

i said that using and selecting one technology, software and
operating system is freedom of choice and be related to every
person to update or not!
noone should not deprive us from our legitimate right!

On 10/12/17, Rosemarie Chavarria<knitqueen2007@gmail.com> wrote:
I disagree. It's not about freedom of choice when it comes to old
systems.
Asking developers to keep maintaining ancient systems is like
asking a manufacturer to keep developing parts for an old wringer
washing machine.
Things change and you have to either move along with the change or
get left behind.



-----Original Message-----
From:nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf
Of zahra
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2017 11:25 PM To:nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA 2017.3 and Outlook 2003

i agree with maintaining all old aincient technology forever!
its freedom of choice for every person and his-her right to select
the favorite programs, office, operating systems etc!
noone should not force others to change, just because beeing
uptodate and jusg for change and new things to come!

On 10/10/17, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
<bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:
Probably both! :-)

Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:- briang1@blueyonder.co.uk,
putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Antony Stone"<antony.stone@nvda.open.source.it>
To:<nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2017 6:07 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA 2017.3 and Outlook 2003


Um... erudite or luddite?

Antony.

On Tuesday 10 October 2017 at 18:59:03, Brian wrote:

I'm a bit of erudite as well. I enjoy playing with new stuff,
but if I'm trying to get stuff done the muscle memory used for
reading emails and other stuff takes a lot to relearn so why
bother when its still working.
Brian
--
I thought of going into banking, until I lost interest.

Please reply
to the list;
please
*don't* CC

me.



--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the entire creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration from prophet Mohammad is:
indeed, imam husayn is the beacon of guidance and the ark of
salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
www.al-islam.org






--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the entire creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration from prophet Mohammad is:
indeed, imam husayn is the beacon of guidance and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
www.al-islam.org






--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the entire creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration from prophet Mohammad is:
indeed, imam husayn is the beacon of guidance and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
www.al-islam.org











--
Image NVDA certified expert
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related
material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where
you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can
use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To
find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit
http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries
(Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert
near you, please visit the following link
https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains
the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the
world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.

--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the entire creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration from prophet Mohammad is:
indeed, imam husayn is the beacon of guidance and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages www.al-islam.org


Re: Say all announcing spelling errors

 

hi.
i turned off spelling error both in document formatting, libreoffice
and my firefox completely.

On 10/13/17, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
<bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:
Its in the document formatting preferences in the preferences section of the

menu you access with nvda/n

However you can of course turn off spelling cecking in your word processor
as well.

I have one machine running xp set up to play a noise rather like a
rattlesnake when a spelling error occus as I'm going through text, but even

that can be a little annoying.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jo Collingwood" <jo.thorpesalvin@icloud.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2017 2:16 PM
Subject: [nvda] Say all announcing spelling errors


How do you stop announcing spelling errors in read back as this stops the
flow of the text?

Sent from my iPad






--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the entire creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration from prophet Mohammad is:
indeed, imam husayn is the beacon of guidance and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
www.al-islam.org


Re: The mystery nvda window strikes again

 

hi brian.
i dont have such an issue using nvda 2017.3 which seems the best
version using windows xp.
even hang using firefox browser using nvda 2017.3 is resolved for me.
thanks brian for your support and helping me to find the best version of nvda!
God bless you!

On 10/13/17, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
<bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:
Well unless this is happening at start up and therefore not seen by nvda or

myself, I am not sure.
I guess it might be due to Ccleaner monitoring being on but then its on on

this machine and its not happening here, or at least not so far as I can
see.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "clive may" <magnolia.p@pobroadband.co.uk>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2017 12:33 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The mystery nvda window strikes again


Hi


I get this on a Win 7 64 bit professional machine. It seems only to
happen after a scheduled run of a disk utility like defrag or check disk.




On 13/10/17 10:53, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
I'm having some issues on my other windows 7 home 64 bit machine.
Nvda will work most of the time, but every few start ups it seems as if it

leaves a blank nvda window on screen.
If you attempt to close this, nvda will ask if you want to close it.
Its the latest version release, indeed I did try a current master as an
update today, and that did exactly the same thing.
It does not otherwise appear two versions or whatever are running at once

so I was a bit puzzled. Of course if you do clos it, then reopen it all is

fine again. the snag is that with that window in existance the preferences

property sheets say they cannot open as one is open already, so it has to

be closed if you want to change anything.
I can recall the early days this used to happen a lot in XP, but not
usually on more modern machines. Maybe its something else which runs at
start up that is causing it to happen. Any ideas?
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.









--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the entire creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration from prophet Mohammad is:
indeed, imam husayn is the beacon of guidance and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
www.al-islam.org


Re: NVDA 2017.3 and Outlook 2003

 

i wish that i were programmer and participate in improvement of nvda
and even compatibility with very old operating systems or softwares.
i remembered one question.
whats the reason that nvda performs slow when using internet explorer?
it reads after one or two second if i press any arrow keys, quick
navigation keys etc.
God bless you all!

On 10/13/17, Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 08:38 am, Carlos wrote:




   As this thread progresses.



    I wonder if at some point someone will show up wanting support for
Windows 3.1x?

Whether that's been stated directly or not, it's the only logical conclusion
of the premise that backward compatibility must be maintained forever and
those who adamantly refuse to ever change deserve primacy over those who
behave normally (and that's the only reasonable term for it).

Clutching on to long dead things is not normal nor is it healthy.   Even
when forced by circumstance it's still not normal or healthy, just
necessary.

There can be no rational argument made, so irrational seems to suffice for
some.

--
Brian  - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1703, Build 15063  (dot level on
request - it changes too often to keep in signature)

*     * *The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement.* *  But
the opposite of a profound truth may well be another* * profound truth.*

*           ~ * *Niels Bohr*
--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the entire creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration from prophet Mohammad is:
indeed, imam husayn is the beacon of guidance and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
www.al-islam.org


Re: firefox slower than chrome?

 

hi david.
please send me the tutorial for using chrome with nvda off list.
thanks so much and God bless you!

On 10/14/17, David Moore <jesusloves1966@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi!
I use Chrome as my default browser. It works great with NVDA.
I did a text tutorial on using Chrome, and I could poste it to this
message.
If you want it, just let me know.
I love Chrome, and NVDA works great with Edge for me,
Almost as well as Chrome.
Definitely try Edge with NVDA.
David Moore
Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Matt Turner
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2017 12:24 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] firefox slower than chrome?

Hi folks.

Subject says it all. Lately, firefox seems to be really slow with nvda.

I've tryed the stable version, and nightly, and chrome seems to be much
faster.

I've even went so far, as to refresh/reinstall firefox.





--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the entire creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration from prophet Mohammad is:
indeed, imam husayn is the beacon of guidance and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
www.al-islam.org


Re: A question for users of multiple screenreaders.

Sky Mundell
 

No.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Arlene
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2017 4:05 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A question for users of multiple screenreaders.

Oh they don't?

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Sky Mundell
Sent: October-13-17 3:35 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A question for users of multiple screenreaders.

It actually is called Canadian assistive technologies now and they don't sell it anymore.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Arlene
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2017 3:32 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A question for users of multiple screenreaders.

High, I heard if you baught System Access to go. It updates itself. You pay one time and it will update itself There's a place in a town not far from me named Vancouver and there is a place called Aroga. They stopped supporting jaws. They now sell System access to go. That's what they said you pay a one time price and System access will update itself. I tried a free trial of it before a friend gave it to me. I had trouble with it from the word go. I just uninstalled it and never looked back. Then a friend gave it to me. I still had trouble with it. it might be good for some that like it. but it's not for me. NVDA and jaws are both good. No trouble with either of them.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ian Westerland
Sent: October-13-17 1:32 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A question for users of multiple screenreaders.


I haven't attempted to use it but the review came from an access site, Media Access Australia.
The review gives details exactly as you have explained them here so I'll do what I usually do at some stage and try it. System Access certainly sounds worthwhile in certain situationsand I wouldn't knock it.

Ian






On 10/13/2017 7:10 PM, Gene wrote:
I don't know what reviews you have read but they are wrong as a fact,
not as an opinion. It isn't a powerful screen-reader like JAWS or
Window-eyes. It was intended and designed to be simple to use and to
meet the needs of undemanding users. This was years ago before NVDA
was available but at that time, it was a considerably less expensive
alternative for those who didn't need a powerful screen-reader as just
System Access. Now, there is System Access to Go, which is System
Access, made available for free for use at times when you don't have
access to a screen-reader. At the time of release, It could do simple
word processing, work with at least some audio players. work well on
the Internet and it worked with Outlook Express. I don't know if the
program has changed to any significant extent over time but I would
imagine that it supports one or more current e-mail programs now and I
wouldn't be surprised if it supports at least one other current
browser, Firefox would be my bet if it supports other browsers.
With NVDA, there is little reason to use System Access to Go, which is
the Cloud version of System Acccess. You can try it for free and
another list member has sent instructions for how to begin. You may be
prompted about how to see help documentation as you proceed but if
not, you may ask here.
I haven't used it in years to any extent and the interface is
different now so I won't go into details. But for use on the Internet
if you are using a computer with no screen-reader, such as at a
friend's house, it is useful and now and then, there are sites that
work with it that don't work with other screen-readers. I almost
never need it any longer but it's good to have tools available in case you do.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Ian Westerland <mailto:iwesterl@bigpond.net.au>
*Sent:* Friday, October 13, 2017 12:41 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] A question for users of multiple screenreaders.

How do you find System Access use? Reviews say it is difficult to get
started and use. It isn't a program I have explored, but as I
transition from Window-Eyes to NVDA as my main computer access
program, it is interesting to explore the alternatives.


Ian Westerland




On 10/13/2017 4:02 PM, Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
> I rarely ever use it because NVDA works well for most of my needs.
I just use system access to go only if I'm trying to fill out a survey
and NVDA doesn't see everything but that doesn't happen too often.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Travis Siegel > Sent:
Thursday, October 12, 2017 8:34 PM > To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > Subject: Re: [nvda] A question for
users of multiple screenreaders.
>
> The site claims it needs internet explorer to make most things talk.
You can't pay me enough to use that bloated bug ridden piece of crap.
No thanks, Guess I'll never be using system access to go ever.
>
>
> On 10/12/2017 11:18 AM, Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
>> Hi, Anthony,
>>
>> The link for system access to go is www.satogo.com
<http://www.satogo.com>. Hit alt R to get it running. After you hear
it start talking, tab to the create an account button and hit the
space bar on it. Type in your username which would be your email
address. Then tab to another edit box. Here you'll type your phone
number including the area code. After that, you tab to the password
field and type in a password. Last but not least, tab to the login
button and hit the space bar or enter on it.
>>
>> Hope this helps.
>>
>> Rosemarie
>>
>> P.S. The account is free if you're using it on the internet. You
have to be on the internet to be able to use it.
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of >> anthony borg >> Sent:
Thursday, October 12, 2017 5:30 AM >> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> >> Subject: Re: [nvda] A question for
users of multiple screenreaders.
>>
>> Hi rosemarie
>> Can you please explain to me how that system access really works?
>> Thanks in advance
>> Anthony
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of >> Rosemarie Chavarria >>
Sent: 12 October 2017 06:22 >> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> >> Subject: Re: [nvda] A question for
users of multiple screenreaders.
>>
>> Hi, Tony,
>>
>> I had a similar situation. NVDA didn't see everything in the
survey that I was trying to fill out for Microsoft so I used system
access to go and it worked beautifully.
>>
>> Rosemarie
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of >> Tony Ballou >> Sent:
Wednesday, October 11, 2017 6:16 PM >> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> >> Subject: Re: [nvda] A question for
users of multiple screenreaders.
>>
>> Hi John,
>>
>>
>> As a former computer instructor who has gone tech, I can tell you
that it pays to have at least one backup screen reader in your arsenal.
Just last week, I was filling out a survey on the Microsoft site using
NVDA and it didn't read things correctly. I switched to window eyes
9.54 to read the same survey and it read things without a hitch,
window eyes has saved me in a couple of earlier situations as well.
NVDA is still my main screen reader of choice, however, I'll say it
again, it does not hurt to have a backup screen reader.
>>
>>
>> Tony
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 10/7/2017 3:55 PM, John Isige wrote:
>>> Hi all. Over the years I've heard several of you say that
multiple >>> screen readers are a good thing, so much so that some
have advocated >>> keeping demo copies installed, just in case. So I have a question.
>>> Can you give specific cases where this is useful?
>>>
>>>
>>> I ask this because I started using NVDA full time because I
decided >>> to try it for a month. During that time, I ran into one
or two things >>> where NVDA didn't read text, I think installers and
the like but I >>> can't remember exactly, since it was like three or four years ago.
>>> I'd fire up JFW, and it would produce the exact same results.
That >>> demonstrated, to me at least, that I didn't get any real
advantages >>> out of running jaws.
>>>
>>>
>>> Now don't misunderstand me. I'm not trying to start a fight here.
I'm >>> not saying that jaws is bad or anything. I'm just saying that
when I >>> ran into potential issues with NVDA, jaws didn't solve
those issues >>> either. Since NVDA was doing everything else I
wanted, I concluded >>> that switching wouldn't cause me to lose any
access. So I'm curious >>> to know what things you might gain access
to with jaws or another >>> screen reader that you can't get with
NVDA. I suppose the obvious >>> example would be anything with jaws
scripts, I don't know if things >>> like Dolphin have scripts or not.
But I mean, I've just heard people >>> advocate this, like I've said,
you know have a demo copy installed >>> and stuff like that. So I'd
just like to hear of any specific cases >>> where another
screenreader has helped. I think it would be really >>> useful to know that kind of thing.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>



Re: A question for users of multiple screenreaders.

Arlene
 

Oh they don't?

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Sky Mundell
Sent: October-13-17 3:35 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A question for users of multiple screenreaders.

It actually is called Canadian assistive technologies now and they don't sell it anymore.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Arlene
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2017 3:32 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A question for users of multiple screenreaders.

High, I heard if you baught System Access to go. It updates itself. You pay one time and it will update itself There's a place in a town not far from me named Vancouver and there is a place called Aroga. They stopped supporting jaws. They now sell System access to go. That's what they said you pay a one time price and System access will update itself. I tried a free trial of it before a friend gave it to me. I had trouble with it from the word go. I just uninstalled it and never looked back. Then a friend gave it to me. I still had trouble with it. it might be good for some that like it. but it's not for me. NVDA and jaws are both good. No trouble with either of them.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ian Westerland
Sent: October-13-17 1:32 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A question for users of multiple screenreaders.


I haven't attempted to use it but the review came from an access site, Media Access Australia.
The review gives details exactly as you have explained them here so I'll do what I usually do at some stage and try it. System Access certainly sounds worthwhile in certain situationsand I wouldn't knock it.

Ian






On 10/13/2017 7:10 PM, Gene wrote:
I don't know what reviews you have read but they are wrong as a fact,
not as an opinion. It isn't a powerful screen-reader like JAWS or
Window-eyes. It was intended and designed to be simple to use and to
meet the needs of undemanding users. This was years ago before NVDA
was available but at that time, it was a considerably less expensive
alternative for those who didn't need a powerful screen-reader as just
System Access. Now, there is System Access to Go, which is System
Access, made available for free for use at times when you don't have
access to a screen-reader. At the time of release, It could do simple
word processing, work with at least some audio players. work well on
the Internet and it worked with Outlook Express. I don't know if the
program has changed to any significant extent over time but I would
imagine that it supports one or more current e-mail programs now and I
wouldn't be surprised if it supports at least one other current
browser, Firefox would be my bet if it supports other browsers.
With NVDA, there is little reason to use System Access to Go, which is
the Cloud version of System Acccess. You can try it for free and
another list member has sent instructions for how to begin. You may be
prompted about how to see help documentation as you proceed but if
not, you may ask here.
I haven't used it in years to any extent and the interface is
different now so I won't go into details. But for use on the Internet
if you are using a computer with no screen-reader, such as at a
friend's house, it is useful and now and then, there are sites that
work with it that don't work with other screen-readers. I almost
never need it any longer but it's good to have tools available in case you do.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Ian Westerland <mailto:iwesterl@bigpond.net.au>
*Sent:* Friday, October 13, 2017 12:41 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] A question for users of multiple screenreaders.

How do you find System Access use? Reviews say it is difficult to get
started and use. It isn't a program I have explored, but as I
transition from Window-Eyes to NVDA as my main computer access
program, it is interesting to explore the alternatives.


Ian Westerland




On 10/13/2017 4:02 PM, Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
> I rarely ever use it because NVDA works well for most of my needs.
I just use system access to go only if I'm trying to fill out a survey
and NVDA doesn't see everything but that doesn't happen too often.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Travis Siegel > Sent:
Thursday, October 12, 2017 8:34 PM > To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > Subject: Re: [nvda] A question for
users of multiple screenreaders.
>
> The site claims it needs internet explorer to make most things talk.
You can't pay me enough to use that bloated bug ridden piece of crap.
No thanks, Guess I'll never be using system access to go ever.
>
>
> On 10/12/2017 11:18 AM, Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
>> Hi, Anthony,
>>
>> The link for system access to go is www.satogo.com
<http://www.satogo.com>. Hit alt R to get it running. After you hear
it start talking, tab to the create an account button and hit the
space bar on it. Type in your username which would be your email
address. Then tab to another edit box. Here you'll type your phone
number including the area code. After that, you tab to the password
field and type in a password. Last but not least, tab to the login
button and hit the space bar or enter on it.
>>
>> Hope this helps.
>>
>> Rosemarie
>>
>> P.S. The account is free if you're using it on the internet. You
have to be on the internet to be able to use it.
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of >> anthony borg >> Sent:
Thursday, October 12, 2017 5:30 AM >> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> >> Subject: Re: [nvda] A question for
users of multiple screenreaders.
>>
>> Hi rosemarie
>> Can you please explain to me how that system access really works?
>> Thanks in advance
>> Anthony
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of >> Rosemarie Chavarria >>
Sent: 12 October 2017 06:22 >> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> >> Subject: Re: [nvda] A question for
users of multiple screenreaders.
>>
>> Hi, Tony,
>>
>> I had a similar situation. NVDA didn't see everything in the
survey that I was trying to fill out for Microsoft so I used system
access to go and it worked beautifully.
>>
>> Rosemarie
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of >> Tony Ballou >> Sent:
Wednesday, October 11, 2017 6:16 PM >> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> >> Subject: Re: [nvda] A question for
users of multiple screenreaders.
>>
>> Hi John,
>>
>>
>> As a former computer instructor who has gone tech, I can tell you
that it pays to have at least one backup screen reader in your arsenal.
Just last week, I was filling out a survey on the Microsoft site using
NVDA and it didn't read things correctly. I switched to window eyes
9.54 to read the same survey and it read things without a hitch,
window eyes has saved me in a couple of earlier situations as well.
NVDA is still my main screen reader of choice, however, I'll say it
again, it does not hurt to have a backup screen reader.
>>
>>
>> Tony
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 10/7/2017 3:55 PM, John Isige wrote:
>>> Hi all. Over the years I've heard several of you say that
multiple >>> screen readers are a good thing, so much so that some
have advocated >>> keeping demo copies installed, just in case. So I have a question.
>>> Can you give specific cases where this is useful?
>>>
>>>
>>> I ask this because I started using NVDA full time because I
decided >>> to try it for a month. During that time, I ran into one
or two things >>> where NVDA didn't read text, I think installers and
the like but I >>> can't remember exactly, since it was like three or four years ago.
>>> I'd fire up JFW, and it would produce the exact same results.
That >>> demonstrated, to me at least, that I didn't get any real
advantages >>> out of running jaws.
>>>
>>>
>>> Now don't misunderstand me. I'm not trying to start a fight here.
I'm >>> not saying that jaws is bad or anything. I'm just saying that
when I >>> ran into potential issues with NVDA, jaws didn't solve
those issues >>> either. Since NVDA was doing everything else I
wanted, I concluded >>> that switching wouldn't cause me to lose any
access. So I'm curious >>> to know what things you might gain access
to with jaws or another >>> screen reader that you can't get with
NVDA. I suppose the obvious >>> example would be anything with jaws
scripts, I don't know if things >>> like Dolphin have scripts or not.
But I mean, I've just heard people >>> advocate this, like I've said,
you know have a demo copy installed >>> and stuff like that. So I'd
just like to hear of any specific cases >>> where another
screenreader has helped. I think it would be really >>> useful to know that kind of thing.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>



Re: A question for users of multiple screenreaders.

Sky Mundell
 

It actually is called Canadian assistive technologies now and they don't sell it anymore.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Arlene
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2017 3:32 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A question for users of multiple screenreaders.

High, I heard if you baught System Access to go. It updates itself. You pay one time and it will update itself There's a place in a town not far from me named Vancouver and there is a place called Aroga. They stopped supporting jaws. They now sell System access to go. That's what they said you pay a one time price and System access will update itself. I tried a free trial of it before a friend gave it to me. I had trouble with it from the word go. I just uninstalled it and never looked back. Then a friend gave it to me. I still had trouble with it. it might be good for some that like it. but it's not for me. NVDA and jaws are both good. No trouble with either of them.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ian Westerland
Sent: October-13-17 1:32 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A question for users of multiple screenreaders.


I haven't attempted to use it but the review came from an access site, Media Access Australia.
The review gives details exactly as you have explained them here so I'll do what I usually do at some stage and try it. System Access certainly sounds worthwhile in certain situationsand I wouldn't knock it.

Ian






On 10/13/2017 7:10 PM, Gene wrote:
I don't know what reviews you have read but they are wrong as a fact,
not as an opinion. It isn't a powerful screen-reader like JAWS or
Window-eyes. It was intended and designed to be simple to use and to
meet the needs of undemanding users. This was years ago before NVDA
was available but at that time, it was a considerably less expensive
alternative for those who didn't need a powerful screen-reader as just
System Access. Now, there is System Access to Go, which is System
Access, made available for free for use at times when you don't have
access to a screen-reader. At the time of release, It could do simple
word processing, work with at least some audio players. work well on
the Internet and it worked with Outlook Express. I don't know if the
program has changed to any significant extent over time but I would
imagine that it supports one or more current e-mail programs now and I
wouldn't be surprised if it supports at least one other current
browser, Firefox would be my bet if it supports other browsers.
With NVDA, there is little reason to use System Access to Go, which is
the Cloud version of System Acccess. You can try it for free and
another list member has sent instructions for how to begin. You may be
prompted about how to see help documentation as you proceed but if
not, you may ask here.
I haven't used it in years to any extent and the interface is
different now so I won't go into details. But for use on the Internet
if you are using a computer with no screen-reader, such as at a
friend's house, it is useful and now and then, there are sites that
work with it that don't work with other screen-readers. I almost
never need it any longer but it's good to have tools available in case you do.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Ian Westerland <mailto:iwesterl@bigpond.net.au>
*Sent:* Friday, October 13, 2017 12:41 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] A question for users of multiple screenreaders.

How do you find System Access use? Reviews say it is difficult to get
started and use. It isn't a program I have explored, but as I
transition from Window-Eyes to NVDA as my main computer access
program, it is interesting to explore the alternatives.


Ian Westerland




On 10/13/2017 4:02 PM, Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
> I rarely ever use it because NVDA works well for most of my needs.
I just use system access to go only if I'm trying to fill out a survey
and NVDA doesn't see everything but that doesn't happen too often.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Travis Siegel > Sent:
Thursday, October 12, 2017 8:34 PM > To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > Subject: Re: [nvda] A question for
users of multiple screenreaders.
>
> The site claims it needs internet explorer to make most things talk.
You can't pay me enough to use that bloated bug ridden piece of crap.
No thanks, Guess I'll never be using system access to go ever.
>
>
> On 10/12/2017 11:18 AM, Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
>> Hi, Anthony,
>>
>> The link for system access to go is www.satogo.com
<http://www.satogo.com>. Hit alt R to get it running. After you hear
it start talking, tab to the create an account button and hit the
space bar on it. Type in your username which would be your email
address. Then tab to another edit box. Here you'll type your phone
number including the area code. After that, you tab to the password
field and type in a password. Last but not least, tab to the login
button and hit the space bar or enter on it.
>>
>> Hope this helps.
>>
>> Rosemarie
>>
>> P.S. The account is free if you're using it on the internet. You
have to be on the internet to be able to use it.
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of >> anthony borg >> Sent:
Thursday, October 12, 2017 5:30 AM >> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> >> Subject: Re: [nvda] A question for
users of multiple screenreaders.
>>
>> Hi rosemarie
>> Can you please explain to me how that system access really works?
>> Thanks in advance
>> Anthony
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of >> Rosemarie Chavarria >>
Sent: 12 October 2017 06:22 >> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> >> Subject: Re: [nvda] A question for
users of multiple screenreaders.
>>
>> Hi, Tony,
>>
>> I had a similar situation. NVDA didn't see everything in the
survey that I was trying to fill out for Microsoft so I used system
access to go and it worked beautifully.
>>
>> Rosemarie
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of >> Tony Ballou >> Sent:
Wednesday, October 11, 2017 6:16 PM >> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> >> Subject: Re: [nvda] A question for
users of multiple screenreaders.
>>
>> Hi John,
>>
>>
>> As a former computer instructor who has gone tech, I can tell you
that it pays to have at least one backup screen reader in your arsenal.
Just last week, I was filling out a survey on the Microsoft site using
NVDA and it didn't read things correctly. I switched to window eyes
9.54 to read the same survey and it read things without a hitch,
window eyes has saved me in a couple of earlier situations as well.
NVDA is still my main screen reader of choice, however, I'll say it
again, it does not hurt to have a backup screen reader.
>>
>>
>> Tony
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 10/7/2017 3:55 PM, John Isige wrote:
>>> Hi all. Over the years I've heard several of you say that
multiple >>> screen readers are a good thing, so much so that some
have advocated >>> keeping demo copies installed, just in case. So I have a question.
>>> Can you give specific cases where this is useful?
>>>
>>>
>>> I ask this because I started using NVDA full time because I
decided >>> to try it for a month. During that time, I ran into one
or two things >>> where NVDA didn't read text, I think installers and
the like but I >>> can't remember exactly, since it was like three or four years ago.
>>> I'd fire up JFW, and it would produce the exact same results.
That >>> demonstrated, to me at least, that I didn't get any real
advantages >>> out of running jaws.
>>>
>>>
>>> Now don't misunderstand me. I'm not trying to start a fight here.
I'm >>> not saying that jaws is bad or anything. I'm just saying that
when I >>> ran into potential issues with NVDA, jaws didn't solve
those issues >>> either. Since NVDA was doing everything else I
wanted, I concluded >>> that switching wouldn't cause me to lose any
access. So I'm curious >>> to know what things you might gain access
to with jaws or another >>> screen reader that you can't get with
NVDA. I suppose the obvious >>> example would be anything with jaws
scripts, I don't know if things >>> like Dolphin have scripts or not.
But I mean, I've just heard people >>> advocate this, like I've said,
you know have a demo copy installed >>> and stuff like that. So I'd
just like to hear of any specific cases >>> where another
screenreader has helped. I think it would be really >>> useful to know that kind of thing.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>



Re: A question for users of multiple screenreaders.

Arlene
 

High, I heard if you baught System Access to go. It updates itself. You pay one time and it will update itself There's a place in a town not far from me named Vancouver and there is a place called Aroga. They stopped supporting jaws. They now sell System access to go. That's what they said you pay a one time price and System access will update itself. I tried a free trial of it before a friend gave it to me. I had trouble with it from the word go. I just uninstalled it and never looked back. Then a friend gave it to me. I still had trouble with it. it might be good for some that like it. but it's not for me. NVDA and jaws are both good. No trouble with either of them.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ian Westerland
Sent: October-13-17 1:32 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A question for users of multiple screenreaders.


I haven't attempted to use it but the review came from an access site, Media Access Australia.
The review gives details exactly as you have explained them here so I'll do what I usually do at some stage and try it. System Access certainly sounds worthwhile in certain situationsand I wouldn't knock it.

Ian






On 10/13/2017 7:10 PM, Gene wrote:
I don't know what reviews you have read but they are wrong as a fact,
not as an opinion. It isn't a powerful screen-reader like JAWS or
Window-eyes. It was intended and designed to be simple to use and to
meet the needs of undemanding users. This was years ago before NVDA
was available but at that time, it was a considerably less expensive
alternative for those who didn't need a powerful screen-reader as just
System Access. Now, there is System Access to Go, which is System
Access, made available for free for use at times when you don't have
access to a screen-reader. At the time of release, It could do simple
word processing, work with at least some audio players. work well on
the Internet and it worked with Outlook Express. I don't know if the
program has changed to any significant extent over time but I would
imagine that it supports one or more current e-mail programs now and I
wouldn't be surprised if it supports at least one other current
browser, Firefox would be my bet if it supports other browsers.
With NVDA, there is little reason to use System Access to Go, which is
the Cloud version of System Acccess. You can try it for free and
another list member has sent instructions for how to begin. You may be
prompted about how to see help documentation as you proceed but if
not, you may ask here.
I haven't used it in years to any extent and the interface is
different now so I won't go into details. But for use on the Internet
if you are using a computer with no screen-reader, such as at a
friend's house, it is useful and now and then, there are sites that
work with it that don't work with other screen-readers. I almost
never need it any longer but it's good to have tools available in case you do.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Ian Westerland <mailto:iwesterl@bigpond.net.au>
*Sent:* Friday, October 13, 2017 12:41 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] A question for users of multiple screenreaders.

How do you find System Access use? Reviews say it is difficult to get
started and use. It isn't a program I have explored, but as I
transition from Window-Eyes to NVDA as my main computer access
program, it is interesting to explore the alternatives.


Ian Westerland




On 10/13/2017 4:02 PM, Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
> I rarely ever use it because NVDA works well for most of my needs.
I just use system access to go only if I'm trying to fill out a survey
and NVDA doesn't see everything but that doesn't happen too often.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Travis Siegel > Sent:
Thursday, October 12, 2017 8:34 PM > To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > Subject: Re: [nvda] A question for
users of multiple screenreaders.
>
> The site claims it needs internet explorer to make most things talk.
You can't pay me enough to use that bloated bug ridden piece of crap.
No thanks, Guess I'll never be using system access to go ever.
>
>
> On 10/12/2017 11:18 AM, Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
>> Hi, Anthony,
>>
>> The link for system access to go is www.satogo.com
<http://www.satogo.com>. Hit alt R to get it running. After you hear
it start talking, tab to the create an account button and hit the
space bar on it. Type in your username which would be your email
address. Then tab to another edit box. Here you'll type your phone
number including the area code. After that, you tab to the password
field and type in a password. Last but not least, tab to the login
button and hit the space bar or enter on it.
>>
>> Hope this helps.
>>
>> Rosemarie
>>
>> P.S. The account is free if you're using it on the internet. You
have to be on the internet to be able to use it.
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of >> anthony borg >> Sent:
Thursday, October 12, 2017 5:30 AM >> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> >> Subject: Re: [nvda] A question for
users of multiple screenreaders.
>>
>> Hi rosemarie
>> Can you please explain to me how that system access really works?
>> Thanks in advance
>> Anthony
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of >> Rosemarie Chavarria >>
Sent: 12 October 2017 06:22 >> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> >> Subject: Re: [nvda] A question for
users of multiple screenreaders.
>>
>> Hi, Tony,
>>
>> I had a similar situation. NVDA didn't see everything in the
survey that I was trying to fill out for Microsoft so I used system
access to go and it worked beautifully.
>>
>> Rosemarie
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of >> Tony Ballou >> Sent:
Wednesday, October 11, 2017 6:16 PM >> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> >> Subject: Re: [nvda] A question for
users of multiple screenreaders.
>>
>> Hi John,
>>
>>
>> As a former computer instructor who has gone tech, I can tell you
that it pays to have at least one backup screen reader in your arsenal.
Just last week, I was filling out a survey on the Microsoft site using
NVDA and it didn't read things correctly. I switched to window eyes
9.54 to read the same survey and it read things without a hitch,
window eyes has saved me in a couple of earlier situations as well.
NVDA is still my main screen reader of choice, however, I'll say it
again, it does not hurt to have a backup screen reader.
>>
>>
>> Tony
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 10/7/2017 3:55 PM, John Isige wrote:
>>> Hi all. Over the years I've heard several of you say that
multiple >>> screen readers are a good thing, so much so that some
have advocated >>> keeping demo copies installed, just in case. So I have a question.
>>> Can you give specific cases where this is useful?
>>>
>>>
>>> I ask this because I started using NVDA full time because I
decided >>> to try it for a month. During that time, I ran into one
or two things >>> where NVDA didn't read text, I think installers and
the like but I >>> can't remember exactly, since it was like three or four years ago.
>>> I'd fire up JFW, and it would produce the exact same results.
That >>> demonstrated, to me at least, that I didn't get any real
advantages >>> out of running jaws.
>>>
>>>
>>> Now don't misunderstand me. I'm not trying to start a fight here.
I'm >>> not saying that jaws is bad or anything. I'm just saying that
when I >>> ran into potential issues with NVDA, jaws didn't solve
those issues >>> either. Since NVDA was doing everything else I
wanted, I concluded >>> that switching wouldn't cause me to lose any
access. So I'm curious >>> to know what things you might gain access
to with jaws or another >>> screen reader that you can't get with
NVDA. I suppose the obvious >>> example would be anything with jaws
scripts, I don't know if things >>> like Dolphin have scripts or not.
But I mean, I've just heard people >>> advocate this, like I've said,
you know have a demo copy installed >>> and stuff like that. So I'd
just like to hear of any specific cases >>> where another
screenreader has helped. I think it would be really >>> useful to know that kind of thing.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>



Re: A question for users of multiple screenreaders.

Arlene
 

That is the trouble with sarahtec they make it only their user friendly interface. They have samnet They have a place where you can get described movies. They have facebook blind user friendly. They even have radio stations.  I tried system access from a friend never again. You cant change the settings to your liking. You have to use whatever your friend gives you. Where as Jaws you can put it onto 2 computers for example work and home. You can choose any setting you like for any computer.  If you put system Access to both of your computers you can’t change the settings you can on your main computer and the other one changes with you.  I had to use my friend’s settings to system access.  I even got samnet witch had his e-mail in it. I did not want to read his messages.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of brian
Sent: October-13-17 6:36 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A question for users of multiple screenreaders.

 

    Several years ago I tried system access but I did not like it.  All of my email would go to my system access email and not my email.  There sam net service was very expensive and my melwhearbytes found 4 trougens and they were all system access or sa and when I called them about I was told that it was a faults possitive.  I don't think so I trust melwhearbytes and what it  founds is true.  I had a 7 day free trial and that was the only time that I ever used that screen reader.  I was not impress with system access and I will not use a screen reader that gives me trogens and puts my email in to their email instead of my email program.  I did like the sam net service but it's way to expensive but there was lots of great content on it.

Brian Sackrider

 

On 10/13/2017 4:19 AM, Gene wrote:

There is another point that I'll make regarding System Access to Go.  I haven't used the program to any extent for years.  In the old days, it used Dectalk as it's default synthesizer.  These days, I believe it uses E-Speak.  It may be that to get access to Dectalk Speech or Eloquence speech, you will have to buy them.  You can buy them for use with System Access to Go and only System Access to Go from Sarotech (spelling) or you can use SAPI5 synthesizers on your machine.  I don't know if SAPI 4 is supported.  But if you hate E-Speak, you may be stuck with it or with Microsoft's default voice for your version of Windows unless you spend money.

 

Gene

----- original Message -----

From: Gene

Sent: Friday, October 13, 2017 3:10 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] A question for users of multiple screenreaders.

 

I don't know what reviews you have read but they are wrong as a fact, not as an opinion.  It isn't a powerful screen-reader like JAWS or Window-eyes.  It was intended and designed to be simple to use and to meet the needs of undemanding users.  This was years ago before NVDA was available but at that time, it was a considerably less expensive alternative for those who didn't need a powerful screen-reader as just System Access.  Now, there is System Access to Go, which is System Access, made available for free for use at times when you don't have access to a screen-reader.  At the time of release, It could do simple word processing, work with at least some audio players. work well on the Internet and it worked with Outlook Express.  I don't know if the program has changed to any significant extent over time but I would imagine that it supports one or more current e-mail programs now and I wouldn't be surprised if it supports at least one other current browser, Firefox would be my bet if it supports other browsers.

 

With NVDA, there is little reason to use System Access to Go, which is the Cloud version of System Acccess.  You can try it for free and another list member has sent instructions for how to begin.  You may be prompted about how to see help documentation as you proceed but if not, you may ask here. 

 

I haven't used it in years to any extent and the interface is different now so I won't go into details.  But for use on the Internet if you are using a computer with no screen-reader, such as at a friend's house, it is useful and now and then, there are sites that work with it that don't work with other screen-readers.  I almost never need it any longer but it's good to have tools available in case you do. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Friday, October 13, 2017 12:41 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] A question for users of multiple screenreaders.

 

How do you find System Access use?  Reviews say it is difficult to get
started and use.  It isn't a program I have explored, but as I
transition from Window-Eyes to NVDA as my main computer access program,
it is interesting to explore the alternatives.


Ian Westerland




On 10/13/2017 4:02 PM, Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
> I rarely ever use it because NVDA works well for most of my needs. I just use system access to go only if I'm trying to fill out a survey and NVDA doesn't see everything but that doesn't happen too often.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Travis Siegel
> Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2017 8:34 PM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] A question for users of multiple screenreaders.
>
> The site claims it needs internet explorer to make most things talk. You can't pay me enough to use that bloated bug ridden piece of crap. No thanks, Guess I'll never be using system access to go ever.
>
>
> On 10/12/2017 11:18 AM, Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
>> Hi, Anthony,
>>
>> The link for system access to go is www.satogo.com. Hit alt R to get it running. After you hear it start talking, tab to the create an account button and hit the space bar on it. Type in your username which would be your email address. Then tab to another edit box. Here you'll type your phone number including the area code. After that, you tab to the password field and type in a password. Last but not least, tab to the login button and hit the space bar or enter on it.
>>
>> Hope this helps.
>>
>> Rosemarie
>>
>> P.S. The account is free if you're using it on the internet. You have to be on the internet to be able to use it.
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
>> anthony borg
>> Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2017 5:30 AM
>> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>> Subject: Re: [nvda] A question for users of multiple screenreaders.
>>
>> Hi rosemarie
>> Can you please explain to me how that system access really works?
>> Thanks in advance
>> Anthony
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
>> Rosemarie Chavarria
>> Sent: 12 October 2017 06:22
>> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>> Subject: Re: [nvda] A question for users of multiple screenreaders.
>>
>> Hi, Tony,
>>
>> I had a similar situation. NVDA didn't see everything in the survey that I was trying to fill out for Microsoft so I used system access to go and it worked beautifully.
>>
>> Rosemarie
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
>> Tony Ballou
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 6:16 PM
>> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>> Subject: Re: [nvda] A question for users of multiple screenreaders.
>>
>> Hi John,
>>
>>
>> As a former computer instructor who has gone tech, I can tell you that it pays to have at least one backup screen reader in your arsenal. Just last week, I was filling out a survey on the Microsoft site using NVDA and it didn't read things correctly. I switched to window eyes 9.54 to read the same survey and it read things without a hitch, window eyes has saved me in a couple of earlier situations as well. NVDA is still my main screen reader of choice, however, I'll say it again, it does not hurt to have a backup screen reader.
>>
>>
>> Tony
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 10/7/2017 3:55 PM, John Isige wrote:
>>> Hi all. Over the years I've heard several of you say that multiple
>>> screen readers are a good thing, so much so that some have advocated
>>> keeping demo copies installed, just in case. So I have a question.
>>> Can you give specific cases where this is useful?
>>>
>>>
>>> I ask this because I started using NVDA full time because I decided
>>> to try it for a month. During that time, I ran into one or two things
>>> where NVDA didn't read text, I think installers and the like but I
>>> can't remember exactly, since it was like three or four years ago.
>>> I'd fire up JFW, and it would produce the exact same results. That
>>> demonstrated, to me at least, that I didn't get any real advantages
>>> out of running jaws.
>>>
>>>
>>> Now don't misunderstand me. I'm not trying to start a fight here. I'm
>>> not saying that jaws is bad or anything. I'm just saying that when I
>>> ran into potential issues with NVDA, jaws didn't solve those issues
>>> either. Since NVDA was doing everything else I wanted, I concluded
>>> that switching wouldn't cause me to lose any access. So I'm curious
>>> to know what things you might gain access to with jaws or another
>>> screen reader that you can't get with NVDA. I suppose the obvious
>>> example would be anything with jaws scripts, I don't know if things
>>> like Dolphin have scripts or not. But I mean, I've just heard people
>>> advocate this, like I've said, you know have a demo copy installed
>>> and stuff like that. So I'd just like to hear of any specific cases
>>> where another screenreader has helped. I think it would be really
>>> useful to know that kind of thing.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
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Re: firefox slower than chrome?

David Moore
 

Hi!

I use Chrome as my default browser. It works great with NVDA.

I did a text tutorial on using Chrome, and I could poste it to this message.

If you want it, just let me know.

I love Chrome, and NVDA works great with Edge for me,

Almost as well as Chrome.

Definitely try Edge with NVDA.

David Moore

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Matt Turner
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2017 12:24 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] firefox slower than chrome?

 

Hi folks.

 

Subject says it all. Lately, firefox seems to be really slow with nvda.

 

I've tryed the stable version, and nightly, and chrome seems to be much

faster.

 

I've even went so far, as to refresh/reinstall firefox.

 

 

 

 


Re: Getting NVDA to Talk without sound caard

Giles Turnbull
 

thanks Chris, my Asus laptop has separate sockets for mic and headphones. I've never used Narator before but just gave it a try and you are right, Narrator does indeed describe the controls.

Thanks for that :)

Giles


Re: A question for users of multiple screenreaders.

Stanley Haupt <bookworm@...>
 

In the past, System Access only worked with Internet Explorer. Since this summer they started supporting other browsers. Below is the History of Changes from September-June 2017.

System Access: History of Changes
History of Changes
Version 3.7.147 (September 12, 2017)
Fixes
This update fixes a problem that prevented Sero from downloading some podcasts on Windows.
Version 3.7.146 (September 11, 2017)
Fixes
This update fixes a problem that prevented Sero from playing some podcasts on Windows.
Version 3.7.145 (September 04, 2017)
Fixes
In Firefox, if you move the mouse within a web page, System Access will now read what is under the mouse pointer. This does not work reliably with Chrome because of a limitation in Chrome itself.
Version 3.7.144 (September 03, 2017)
Fixes
In Firefox and Chrome, System Access now supports some editable text controls with suggestions that you can read and select with the up and down arrow keys.
In Firefox and Chrome, this update eliminates many instances of the phrase "unreadable text" when reading a page.
In Firefox and Chrome, System Access now lets you read the individual cells of the table in the Gmail inbox, and possibly on other sites.
Version 3.7.143 (August 26, 2017)
Fixes
This update fixes a problem in the previous update that prevented System Access from reading the Chrome address and search bar.
Version 3.7.142 (August 20, 2017)
Fixes
This update introduces more robust support for editable text controls in Chrome, Firefox, and Thunderbird. In particular, System Access now reports misspelled words when spell checking is enabled, by playing a low tone as it reads the word. It can do this as you're reading the text, and depending on the app, it can sometimes report a misspelled word as soon as you hit Space. This update also improves support for text selection in Thunderbird.
Version 3.7.141 (July 29, 2017)
Fixes
This update fixes a few more bugs in our support for Chrome and Firefox.
Version 3.7.140 (July 20, 2017)
Fixes
In Firefox and Chrome, System Access now identifies some headings that it previously missed, such as the "Share this" heading on many WordPress blogs.
This update solves a problem that completely blocked System Access from reading some pages in Firefox and Chrome.
Version 3.7.139 (July 12, 2017)
Fixes
In Firefox and Chrome, this update fixes a problem that caused System Access to put some pieces of text on their own line when they should be inline with the rest of the text.
Version 3.7.138 (July 11, 2017)
Fixes
In Firefox and Mozilla Thunderbird, for menu items that can be checked or selected, System Access now announces the state of the menu item.
Version 3.7.137 (July 08, 2017)
Fixes
This update solves a problem with reading single-line editable text fields in Chrome, where System Access would say "blank" when the field was not actually blank.
Version 3.7.136 (July 08, 2017)
Fixes
This update solves a problem that caused System Access to miss some text on web pages in Firefox.
This update solves a problem that caused System Access to treat some static text in the Firefox Options screen as editable text.
This update fixes a recent regression that broke navigation and reading when composing a message in Mozilla Thunderbird.
In Firefox and Chrome, System Access will now read a link even if it cannot find a label and the link does not appear to be a graphic.
Version 3.7.135 (July 06, 2017)
Fixes
This update fixes a problem with some numeric text fields in Firefox, such as the "How old are you?" field when creating a Firefox Sync account.
Version 3.7.134 (July 05, 2017)
Fixes
This update fixes a recent regression in Firefox that caused a lot of text on web pages to be presented as editable text when it shouldn't be.
Version 3.7.133 (July 04, 2017)
Fixes
In all supported browsers, you can now press K and Shift+K to move between links on a page.
This update fixes a problem that prevented System Access from detecting some custom clickable elements, such as the "Search by voice" element on the Chrome start page
This update adds support for buttons nested within links in Firefox and Chrome, such as the "Don't show on this page" buttons on the Chrome start page.
This update cleans up the presentation of some links with both text and graphics in Firefox and Chrome, such as the links to recently visited sites on the Chrome start page.
Version 3.7.132 (July 02, 2017)
Fixes
This update solves a problem that caused System Access to become sluggish when navigating a long web page in Firefox or Chrome.
This update solves a problem that prevented System Access from reading some editable text fields in Firefox and Chrome.
In Firefox and Chrome, the B and Shift+B commands now navigate to menu buttons as well as normal buttons.
Version 3.7.131 (July 01, 2017)
Fixes
System Access now supports table navigation commands in Firefox and Chrome, as it does in Internet Explorer.
This update fixes a problem that prevented System Access from finding the keyword search box on eBay.com when using Firefox or Chrome.
This update fixes a problem with clicking on some custom elements that aren't identified as links or buttons in Firefox and Chrome.
Version 3.7.130 (June 28, 2017)
Fixes
This update solves a problem that caused System Access to miss some headings in Firefox and Chrome, such as on FileHippo.com.
Version 3.7.129 (June 27, 2017)
Fixes
In Firefox and Chrome, System Access now waits a little longer for a newly loaded page to settle before it starts reading. This may cause page loads to feel a little slower, but it will also help with highly dynamic pages. We appreciate your continued feedback as we work to provide a great user experience in these browsers.
Version 3.7.128 (June 27, 2017)
Fixes
This update fixes a problem that prevented System Access from fully rendering the news feed at m.facebook.com in Firefox and Chrome.
This update fixes a problem that prevented the down arrow key from moving out of the Bing.com search box in Firefox.
This update adds the quick navigation commands for unvisited and visited links in Firefox and Chrome.
Version 3.7.127 (June 25, 2017)
Fixes
This update solves a problem that prevented System Access from recognizing some editable text fields in Firefox and Chrome.
Version 3.7.126 (June 25, 2017)
Preview of updated support for Firefox and Chrome
For the past several years, Serotek has only officially supported Internet Explorer for web browsing with System Access. But starting with Windows 10, Microsoft has stopped new development on Internet Explorer and focused on the Edge browser. We are working with Microsoft on Edge accessibility. But for now, we've been working on updated support for Firefox and Chrome within System Access, and we're ready to give you a sneak peek. You'll find the same smooth, intuitive user experience that you've come to know and love with Internet Explorer. We've done our best to work out all the bugs, but it's possible that we've missed some. So please give it a try and

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of The Wolf
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2017 12:10 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A question for users of multiple screenreaders.

so system access screen reader is still being worked on?


Re: Python IDE

Alessandro Albano
 

Hi,

in this list, there is an python course for blind?

In general and specifically for develop addon for nvda?

Thanks.


Alessandro

Il 13/10/2017 18:31, Bhavya shah ha scritto:
Hi Alessandro,
I am using LiClipse for a Python programming course I am currently
taking, since that was the IDE recommended to all of us visually
impaired screen reader users by our mentors.
Thanks.

On 10/13/17, Alessandro Albano via Groups.Io
<sharkboy_torino=yahoo.it@groups.io> wrote:
Thanks all for the reply.

The solution is the same that i use.

Thanks.


Alessandro

Il 13/10/2017 15:41, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io ha scritto:
There have been efforts made to make notepad ++ work better with nvda
because so many use it to write source and scripts with.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Anthony Lawlor" <antlaw0@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2017 10:18 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Python IDE


Hi,

I use Notepad++ for all my coding. It is accessible with NVDA. You
could also try Eclipse.

On 10/12/17, Alessandro Albano via Groups.Io
<sharkboy_torino=yahoo.it@groups.io> wrote:
Hi everyone,
I wanted to know what IDE were used to develop in python language.
Eclipse?
Visual Studio? Other?
I'm attending a course and wanted to know what was the most
accessible IDE
to use for a blind people.
Thanks.

--
Alessandro








Re: Python IDE

Bhavya shah
 

Hi Alessandro,
I am using LiClipse for a Python programming course I am currently
taking, since that was the IDE recommended to all of us visually
impaired screen reader users by our mentors.
Thanks.

On 10/13/17, Alessandro Albano via Groups.Io
<sharkboy_torino=yahoo.it@groups.io> wrote:
Thanks all for the reply.

The solution is the same that i use.

Thanks.


Alessandro

Il 13/10/2017 15:41, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io ha scritto:
There have been efforts made to make notepad ++ work better with nvda
because so many use it to write source and scripts with.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Anthony Lawlor" <antlaw0@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2017 10:18 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Python IDE


Hi,

I use Notepad++ for all my coding. It is accessible with NVDA. You
could also try Eclipse.

On 10/12/17, Alessandro Albano via Groups.Io
<sharkboy_torino=yahoo.it@groups.io> wrote:
Hi everyone,
I wanted to know what IDE were used to develop in python language.
Eclipse?
Visual Studio? Other?
I'm attending a course and wanted to know what was the most
accessible IDE
to use for a blind people.
Thanks.

--
Alessandro











--
Best Regards
Bhavya Shah

Blogger at Hiking Across Horizons: https://bhavyashah125.wordpress.com/

Contacting Me
E-mail Address: bhavya.shah125@gmail.com
Follow me on Twitter @BhavyaShah125 or www.twitter.com/BhavyaShah125
Mobile Number: +91 7506221750


firefox slower than chrome?

Matt Turner
 

Hi folks.

Subject says it all. Lately, firefox seems to be really slow with nvda.

I've tryed the stable version, and nightly, and chrome seems to be much faster.

I've even went so far, as to refresh/reinstall firefox.


Re: A question for users of multiple screenreaders.

 

so system access screen reader is still being worked on?

On 10/13/2017 9:05 AM, Stanley Haupt via Groups.Io wrote:
I purchased System Access back in 2014. In 2015, I purchased DocuScanPlus. During 2016, I purchased System Access Mobile to be placed on a thumb drive.

After Window-Eyes was discontinued, this gave me access to Dectalk with System Access.
I am happy with these products because all software updates are free. Both System Access and DocuScanPlus are installed on a desktop and laptop computer. Both computers are running Windows 10.

In the past, I have used SATOGO. I have not purchased their email and other access information.

Stanley





Re: A question for users of multiple screenreaders.

Stanley Haupt <bookworm@...>
 

I purchased System Access back in 2014. In 2015, I purchased DocuScanPlus. During 2016, I purchased System Access Mobile to be placed on a thumb drive.

After Window-Eyes was discontinued, this gave me access to Dectalk with System Access.
I am happy with these products because all software updates are free. Both System Access and DocuScanPlus are installed on a desktop and laptop computer. Both computers are running Windows 10.

In the past, I have used SATOGO. I have not purchased their email and other access information.

Stanley


Re: NVDA 2017.3 and Outlook 2003

 

On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 08:38 am, Carlos wrote:

   As this thread progresses.

    I wonder if at some point someone will show up wanting support for Windows 3.1x?

Whether that's been stated directly or not, it's the only logical conclusion of the premise that backward compatibility must be maintained forever and those who adamantly refuse to ever change deserve primacy over those who behave normally (and that's the only reasonable term for it).

Clutching on to long dead things is not normal nor is it healthy.   Even when forced by circumstance it's still not normal or healthy, just necessary.

There can be no rational argument made, so irrational seems to suffice for some.
 
--
Brian  Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1703, Build 15063  (dot level on request - it changes too often to keep in signature)

     The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement.  But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth.

            Niels Bohr