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Re: Firefox 57 etc

Gene
 

All the update options are obvious.  There is an automatically update option, an option to notify you when an update is available and an option to never update.  I don't know if you are saying not all the update options are obviouls or not all the options available in the entire options dialog are obvious.
 
If somene doesn't know how or has problems finding the update settings, how to find them can be explained and once explained, it shouldn't be difficult to find them.  But remopving the actual service itself is a really terrible idea.
 
Gene

Sent: Monday, November 06, 2017 3:53 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Firefox 57 etc

That is a bit of a sledgehammer way. You can set it in the options, but
quite what all the choices do is not instantly obvious, except the one to
say never update of course!
 Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "zahra" <nasrinkhaksar3@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, November 06, 2017 6:42 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Firefox 57 etc


just delete maintainance service in your control panel, i mean
uninstall it and go to options, advance, update and set your desires.

On 11/6/17, Sharni-Lee Ward <sharni-lee.ward@...> wrote:
> How can I make sure Firefox won't update? I don't want my go-to browser
> to be unusable!
>
>
> On 6/11/2017 10:17 AM, Stephen wrote:
>> I thought that was why there were beta versions before the main
>> release, to get these issues ironed out in the first place?
>> At 07:47 PM 11/5/2017, you wrote:
>>> Well how does one actually get it to work then, I cannot get to
>>> anything I can read in order to check if the option is set wrongly, I
>>> was under the impression that it was supposed to be off by default.
>>> this has not been my experience, either that or there are more
>>> serious issues on the 32 bit version or it has problems in windows 7.
>>> No My thrust and that of several others I know is that it has been
>>> sprung on people. IE if there was a version of firefox that by
>>> default could not be used by the sighted it would never leave the
>>> developers.
>>> My point is that I'm sick and tired of being a second class citizen
>>> simply because I'm blind, and its about time these people got their
>>> fingers out of their ears or wherever they put them, not wanting to
>>> be rude and embraced accessibility at the start of a new concept not
>>> half way through it.
>>> Brian
>>>
>>> bglists@...
>>> Sent via blueyonder.
>>> Please address personal email to:-
>>> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
>>> in the display name field.
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Isige" <gwynn@...>
>>> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2017 5:42 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [nvda] Firefox 57 etc
>>>
>>>
>>> My apologies, I misunderstood your rhetoric comment. That's what comes
>>> of trying to do two things at once. Also to be clear, I'm not saying we
>>> shouldn't question changes. I think it's fine and valuable to ask what
>>> changes are being made and why they're being made. But there are some
>>> people who seem to assume they're almost always bad and are the start
>>> down a path for changes for the worst, it seems to me, and that's what I
>>> object to. As you say, and a few others have reported this here as well,
>>> the new Firefox with the option set correctly seems to be mostly fine,
>>> if slow. And if not, as you've also pointed out, we have other browsers
>>> to use until it gets straightened out.
>>>
>>>
>>> I also think it's valuable to point out that these aren't ham-fisted
>>> sledgehammer changes, they are perhaps fairly large changes sure, but
>>> they're not being done just because, they're being done for a perfectly
>>> valid security reason. I figured I'd better provide examples instead of
>>> just telling people it's an issue, now we can all see the potential
>>> problems with code injection. I should add, I'm really glad the new
>>> update is mostly fine, though I might use the extended release myself. I
>>> use Firefox as my daily browser and haven't really found any of the
>>> others to my liking for various reasons, though I need to play with them
>>> some more because of course accessibility keeps improving for them.
>>>
>>>
>>> Man I remember the days of IE 6 or 7 when JFW's Firefox support wasn't
>>> that great, and IE updated and JFW hadn't caught up yet. Called tech
>>> support and they insisted I couldn't be running the new version of IE
>>> because the new version of IE didn't work with JFW. At least we've got
>>> some pretty decent alternatives nowadays. I'm not even sure if Firefox
>>> was supported yet, it was ages ago when this happened, but I remember I
>>> had all kinds of issues browsing until it got updated eventually. And
>>> that line will stick in my head forever, "you can't be running that",
>>> I'm like "dude it's right here on my machine"! I think I even cranked
>>> speech up over the speakers and made it read the version number. Fun
>>> times!
>>>
>>>
>>> On 11/4/2017 23:45, Ron Canazzi wrote:
>>>> Hi John,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Boy, you really like to press home a point. I didn't fundamentally
>>>> disagree with you on any of that. In fact, according to beta testers,
>>>> Firefox 57 without the check box checked isn't very much different
>>>> than earlier versions. In addition, I have begun to use Edge for many
>>>> things. The only major issue I see with Edge and NVDA is it is a bit
>>>> erratic in forms mode. For example on the Send Space page where you
>>>> have to click on buttons and make descriptive editions if desired,
>>>> NVDA keeps slipping in and out of forms mode. I bet they nail this one
>>>> down either later this year or early next year. I can use Edge for
>>>> anything now including forms and similar editable pages--with some
>>>> difficulty.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I only objected to your wholesale condemnation of all blind people who
>>>> raised questions about changes in accessibility.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 11/4/2017 9:57 PM, John Isige wrote:
>>>>> Ah. Rhetoric. Like this.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://blog.trendmicro.com/mozilla-firefox-exploit-enlists-pcs-advanced-botnet/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> And this:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.welivesecurity.com/2015/08/11/firefox-under-fire-anatomy-of-latest-0-day-attack/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The reason you're not hacked any more than other people is because
>>>>> Firefox updates for security, i.e. the very thing people are
>>>>> complaining
>>>>> about now because it's updating in a way that happens to mess with
>>>>> screen readers. It's true that, so far as I know, neither of these
>>>>> injection attacks are the kind of code injection screen readers do.
>>>>> That's because screen readers are local though and not using something
>>>>> like JavaScript, but that's about the only difference. And you should
>>>>> particularly note from the second link that the particular code
>>>>> injection attack being discussed there allows reading and writing of
>>>>> local files as well as uploading them. Have a credit card number
>>>>> written
>>>>> down somewhere for easy access? Get infected by that thing and it
>>>>> could
>>>>> very well be uploaded to a site for somebody else to try and use.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> My point is, injection attacks happen, they're bad, and this is
>>>>> another
>>>>> way to try and stop them. There's a real purpose to this change,
>>>>> whether
>>>>> or not anybody happens to like or agree with it. It's not just
>>>>> rhetoric,
>>>>> there are real examples of it, as I've just demonstrated. There's
>>>>> also a
>>>>> way for screen readers to deal with browsers that doesn't involve code
>>>>> injection, I believe this is how NVDA deals with Microsoft Edge
>>>>> because
>>>>> Edge doesn't allow code injection. That's also part of why everybody's
>>>>> still working on Edge accessibility, sure, that way doesn't
>>>>> materialize
>>>>> overnight, it has to be implemented and I'm sure issues have to be
>>>>> worked out with it, e.g. if a browser needs to expose certain
>>>>> things it
>>>>> doesn't currently.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I get that the change Firefox is making isn't ideal for us, I'm just
>>>>> saying, there's a reason for it, and there are a lot of
>>>>> alternatives to
>>>>> using the new Firefox, including an older accessible version of
>>>>> Firefox
>>>>> if you don't feel like trying to change browsers and use Chrome or
>>>>> Edge
>>>>> until better accessibility for the new version of Firefox is worked
>>>>> out.
>>>>> There's no reason to assume that the sky is falling and that nothing
>>>>> will ever get better because clearly, Firefox is going down the
>>>>> road of
>>>>> hating blind people and ignoring them entirely and thus we're all
>>>>> crewed.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 11/4/2017 19:13, Ron Canazzi wrote:
>>>>>> Hi John,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Besides all that rhetoric, Mozilla has set the 'disable all
>>>>>> accessibility features' item to unchecked by default. As long as you
>>>>>> don't turn it on by accident, there shouldn't be any problem. I don't
>>>>>> know what the chance of you getting infected or hacked by
>>>>>> something is
>>>>>> when this item is turned off, but I would imagine it isn't very high
>>>>>> because I don't see any greater number of blind people getting hacked
>>>>>> proportionately than sighted folks. Still there is an issue with
>>>>>> security now of days and it probably won't get any better for years.
>>>>>> Some people have already tested 57 with screen readers and were
>>>>>> careful not to check the box and things seem reasonably good.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/4/2017 6:08 PM, John Isige wrote:
>>>>>>> If you'd read all of the stuff in Freedom Scientific's post, you
>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>> have seen this link.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.marcozehe.de/2017/09/29/rethinking-web-accessibility-on-windows/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Code injection is a horrible idea from a security standpoint and
>>>>>>> also a
>>>>>>> coding one. It was something that was necessary back in the day, but
>>>>>>> probably isn't anymore. So that was a change that probably should
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> happened long before now anyway. It makes sense as a change and
>>>>>>> it was
>>>>>>> going to cause this issue whenever it happened. Not only do we have
>>>>>>> several accessible browsers to choose from, we have an accessible
>>>>>>> version of the one with the problem and one assumes work will be
>>>>>>> done to
>>>>>>> make the current version accessible. Seriously, do you people do
>>>>>>> anything other than bitch about stuff? I'm beginning to wonder. I
>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>> that the transition is annoying, sure. but some times there are
>>>>>>> actually
>>>>>>> good reasons to change things, however annoying the transition
>>>>>>> happens
>>>>>>> to be, and honestly, this one isn't all that bad in the grand
>>>>>>> scheme of
>>>>>>> things.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 11/4/2017 4:14, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
>>>>>>>> Indeed, However I am critical of Mozillas handling of this. Its not
>>>>>>>> often that the makers of Jaws put up a page about the pitfalls and
>>>>>>>> also criticise a particular company for being unthinking about
>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>> policy toward the VI community.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Let us hope that somebody in the management at that organisation
>>>>>>>> takes
>>>>>>>> us more seriously, however I'm not holding my breath, and I'm not
>>>>>>>> sure
>>>>>>>> if jamie working for them will help much if the culture is going
>>>>>>>> down
>>>>>>>> the road toward making all software inaccessible to stop
>>>>>>>> hacking. He
>>>>>>>> is probably not the most tactful person in the world as indeed
>>>>>>>> neither
>>>>>>>> am I. I can now afford to grow old disgracefully. Age has its
>>>>>>>> advantages as history does tend to repeat itself and we have all
>>>>>>>> been
>>>>>>>> here before, sadly.
>>>>>>>> Brian
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> bglists@...
>>>>>>>> Sent via blueyonder.
>>>>>>>> Please address personal email to:-
>>>>>>>> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
>>>>>>>> in the display name field.
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "никиÑ,а Ñ,аÑ?Ð°Ñ Ð¾Ð²"
>>>>>>>> <ntarasov29@...>
>>>>>>>> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 03, 2017 6:41 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nvda] Firefox 57 etc
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hello. I don't think it's worth installing Mozila 57 until she's
>>>>>>>> fully
>>>>>>>> available to NVDA.
>>>>>>>> ÐzÑ,пÑ?авлено из ÐYоÑ?Ñ,Ñ< длѠ Windows 10
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ÐzÑ,: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
>>>>>>>> ÐzÑ,пÑ?авлено: 3 Ð½Ð¾Ñ Ð±Ñ?Ñ  2017 г. в 21:17
>>>>>>>> ÐsомÑf: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>>>>>>>> Тема: Re: [nvda] Firefox 57 etc
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes I saw a message on the issues list from James, about some
>>>>>>>> fixing
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> version 58, so maybe it will get resolved from the currently
>>>>>>>> unusable
>>>>>>>> state.
>>>>>>>> Its new users of any screenreader I feel sorry for, especially
>>>>>>>> where
>>>>>>>> its a
>>>>>>>> shared machine and the sighted member just lets firefox update.
>>>>>>>> There are a couple of other issues. It disabled both my add ons,
>>>>>>>> navigational sounds and Ublock Origin ad blocker and even when I
>>>>>>>> put
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> version 52 back on I had to re download both add ons and install
>>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>>> again.
>>>>>>>> Not only that but nvda after the update could not read the
>>>>>>>> screen of
>>>>>>>> the add
>>>>>>>> ons manager, I had to exit firefox completely and go back in
>>>>>>>> again to
>>>>>>>> see
>>>>>>>> if they had installed correctly, I'm sure this was not the case
>>>>>>>> prior
>>>>>>>> to up
>>>>>>>> and down dating the version I had, which was 55. How also does one
>>>>>>>> set
>>>>>>>> 52 to
>>>>>>>> get security updates without letting it update to 57 as I see it
>>>>>>>> wants
>>>>>>>> to do
>>>>>>>> till I set updates to no, ie not recommended.
>>>>>>>> Brian
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> bglists@...
>>>>>>>> Sent via blueyonder.
>>>>>>>> Please address personal email to:-
>>>>>>>> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
>>>>>>>> in the display name field.
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Mendoza"
>>>>>>>> <lowvisiontek@...>
>>>>>>>> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 03, 2017 10:31 AM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nvda] Firefox 57 etc
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi, Brian
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I have the same issue on the other machine, and that is the reason
>>>>>>>>> why I
>>>>>>>>> keep to shift instead to use the Firefox ESR version 52 but for
>>>>>>>>> now I
>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>> stick to this version because there is likely more stable in
>>>>>>>>> performance
>>>>>>>>> and never has a problem. And, once the issue has fix maybe I
>>>>>>>>> could go
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> to use and test it again.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Robert Mendoza
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 11/3/2017 6:00 PM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> With regard to this version of Firefox, and in addition to what
>>>>>>>>>> Joseph
>>>>>>>>>> posted about it. Here is what me acting as the average unaware
>>>>>>>>>> updater
>>>>>>>>>> found.
>>>>>>>>>> After installation only the menus work, no content on the page is
>>>>>>>>>> readable, you cannot go into any browse or focus mode. You just
>>>>>>>>>> here
>>>>>>>>>> unknown.
>>>>>>>>>> Now there may well be some kind of setting that can be altered,
>>>>>>>>>> I do
>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>> know, to achieve what he got, slow but functioning. I could not
>>>>>>>>>> find
>>>>>>>>>> any
>>>>>>>>>> option for this. Not only that but it seemed to lose almost half
>>>>>>>>>> of my
>>>>>>>>>> bookmarks as well.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So unless they fix this on the release version anyone trying
>>>>>>>>>> to use
>>>>>>>>>> Firefox 57 when it comes out with the latest version of nvda,
>>>>>>>>>> and I
>>>>>>>>>> am up
>>>>>>>>>> to date with the master branch here, will not be able to do so
>>>>>>>>>> unless
>>>>>>>>>> they know how to make it work.
>>>>>>>>>> If these people are employees then they will probably need the
>>>>>>>>>> permission
>>>>>>>>>> of an admin to reinstall a version like 55, and turn off auto
>>>>>>>>>> updates. I
>>>>>>>>>> have reinstalled 52 in actual fact and got my bookmarks back as
>>>>>>>>>> well as
>>>>>>>>>> functionality. To my mind the makers of Firefox at the current
>>>>>>>>>> state of
>>>>>>>>>> play should be able to see if screenreading software is on a
>>>>>>>>>> machine
>>>>>>>>>> in a
>>>>>>>>>> similar way to Adobe reader or Jarte does, and prevent it from
>>>>>>>>>> updating
>>>>>>>>>> to an unworkable version.
>>>>>>>>>> I cannot understand why they have not done this.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Anyone care to comment?
>>>>>>>>>> Brian
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> bglists@...
>>>>>>>>>> Sent via blueyonder.
>>>>>>>>>> Please address personal email to:-
>>>>>>>>>> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
>>>>>>>>>> in the display name field.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>


--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the entire creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration from prophet Mohammad is:
indeed, imam husayn is the beacon of guidance and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
www.al-islam.org






Re: Firefox 57 etc

Gene
 

People may want simpler design but that doesn't mean they want to go back to the days of almost static web pages and to the days when web sites didn't have embedded programsa that people use on various sites. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 06, 2017 3:24 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Firefox 57 etc

I partly agree, but there is also a push to try to get web developers to
make sites accessible while they still can use newer ways of working for the
sighted. Modern coding after all allows one to read the details of the
browser in use by the  visitor and its not beyond the wit of any developer
to be adaptive. Pandering to every little change will start to unravel the
standards that guide development.
 I am already finding sighted friends telling me we no long want bells a
whistles on web sites, we want something fast and easy to use, why do they
keep on redesigning what has already proved to work.
 The new lamps for old thing was a war of getting folks attention in those
halcyon days of the start of the web, but now its seen as a tool and not
such a showpiece of how clever the site builder is, or should be.
 Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2017 1:58 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Firefox 57 etc


Exploits are only one reason these changes are being made.  Wasn't it to
this list that an article was sent yesterday from a site that specializes in
accessibility issues explaining why old methods must be replaced by newer
ones?  As sites become increasingly interactive, the old methods are
increasingly inadequate.  I just remembered the name of the site.  It's
Marcos Accessibility blog.  (spelling))  Evidently, these changes in
accessibility can't be just completely implemented in new versions of
Firefox but are under development.  We cannot assume that they are being
implemented as they are for lack of prior planning.  The article Implies
that their implementation is in some way, part of their development.  We see
constant examples of programs becoming inaccessible or less accessible in
new versions.
We see constant examples of accessibility being added after a program is
released rather than being developed with the program. That doesn't mean
that we should assume a reflexive attitude that every such seeming
occurrence is one.  This case may be an exception that people will be very
glad of as things develop.

In addition, people can experiment with new versions of Firefox and use the
ESR version on the same machine without losing access to either whenever
they wish.  Use the portable versions of both or the installed version of
one and the portable version of the other.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2017 2:55 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Firefox 57 etc


All very well, but you forget all the  masses of exploits used in other
software. I'm also saying this, if somebody said that this' ere screen
dis[play is a way in to Firefox lets make it invisible then it would not be
changed to stop the exploit. That is the thrust I'm going for.
 Unfortunately it is  a known fact that any code will have ways to get in
and exploit it. Everything man or woman does has an up side and a down side
as there are always crooks around.
 However these issues have been around for years and years and nobody did
sod all about it, till recently, and now its a mess because they did not
actually think about it they simply did a fix and we have to take the left
overs till they fix it for us.

Lets hope that checkbox does end up unchecked in the release version as I
could not even find it so how con one alter it, I know! Hack the registry!
 grin.
 Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "John Isige" <gwynn@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2017 1:57 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Firefox 57 etc


Ah. Rhetoric. Like this.


http://blog.trendmicro.com/mozilla-firefox-exploit-enlists-pcs-advanced-botnet/


And this:


https://www.welivesecurity.com/2015/08/11/firefox-under-fire-anatomy-of-latest-0-day-attack/


The reason you're not hacked any more than other people is because
Firefox updates for security, i.e. the very thing people are complaining
about now because it's updating in a way that happens to mess with
screen readers. It's true that, so far as I know, neither of these
injection attacks are the kind of code injection screen readers do.
That's because screen readers are local though and not using something
like JavaScript, but that's about the only difference. And you should
particularly note from the second link that the particular code
injection attack being discussed there allows reading and writing of
local files as well as uploading them. Have a credit card number written
down somewhere for easy access? Get infected by that thing and it could
very well be uploaded to a site for somebody else to try and use.


My point is, injection attacks happen, they're bad, and this is another
way to try and stop them. There's a real purpose to this change, whether
or not anybody happens to like or agree with it. It's not just rhetoric,
there are real examples of it, as I've just demonstrated. There's also a
way for screen readers to deal with browsers that doesn't involve code
injection, I believe this is how NVDA deals with Microsoft Edge because
Edge doesn't allow code injection. That's also part of why everybody's
still working on Edge accessibility, sure, that way doesn't materialize
overnight, it has to be implemented and I'm sure issues have to be
worked out with it, e.g. if a browser needs to expose certain things it
doesn't currently.


I get that the change Firefox is making isn't ideal for us, I'm just
saying, there's a reason for it, and there are a lot of alternatives to
using the new Firefox, including an older accessible version of Firefox
if you don't feel like trying to change browsers and use Chrome or Edge
until better accessibility for the new version of Firefox is worked out.
There's no reason to assume that the sky is falling and that nothing
will ever get better because clearly, Firefox is going down the road of
hating blind people and ignoring them entirely and thus we're all crewed.


On 11/4/2017 19:13, Ron Canazzi wrote:
> Hi John,
>
>
> Besides all that rhetoric, Mozilla has set the 'disable all
> accessibility features' item to unchecked by default.  As long as you
> don't turn it on by accident, there shouldn't be any problem. I don't
> know what the chance of you getting infected or hacked by something is
> when this item is turned off, but I would imagine it isn't very high
> because I don't see any greater number of blind people getting hacked
> proportionately than sighted folks.  Still there is an issue with
> security now of days and it probably won't get any better for years.
> Some people have already tested 57 with screen readers and were
> careful not to check the box and things seem reasonably good.
>
>
>
> On 11/4/2017 6:08 PM, John Isige wrote:
>> If you'd read all of the stuff in Freedom Scientific's post, you would
>> have seen this link.
>>
>>
>> https://www.marcozehe.de/2017/09/29/rethinking-web-accessibility-on-windows/
>>
>>
>>
>> Code injection is a horrible idea from a security standpoint and also a
>> coding one. It was something that was necessary back in the day, but
>> probably isn't anymore. So that was a change that probably should have
>> happened long before now anyway. It makes sense as a change and it was
>> going to cause this issue whenever it happened.  Not only do we have
>> several accessible browsers to choose from, we have an accessible
>> version of the one with the problem and one assumes work will be done to
>> make the current version accessible. Seriously, do you people do
>> anything other than bitch about stuff? I'm beginning to wonder. I get
>> that the transition is annoying, sure. but some times there are actually
>> good reasons to change things, however annoying the transition happens
>> to be, and honestly, this one isn't all that bad in the grand scheme of
>> things.
>>
>>
>> On 11/4/2017 4:14, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
>>> Indeed, However I am critical of Mozillas handling of this. Its not
>>> often that the makers of Jaws put up a page about the pitfalls and
>>> also criticise a particular company for being unthinking about their
>>> policy toward the  VI community.
>>>
>>> Let us hope that somebody in the management at that organisation takes
>>> us more seriously, however I'm not holding my breath, and I'm not sure
>>> if jamie working for them will help much if the culture is going down
>>> the road toward making all software inaccessible to stop hacking. He
>>> is probably not the most tactful person in the world as indeed neither
>>> am I. I can now afford to grow old disgracefully. Age has its
>>> advantages as history does tend to repeat itself and we have all been
>>> here before, sadly.
>>> Brian
>>>
>>> bglists@...
>>> Sent via blueyonder.
>>> Please address personal email to:-
>>> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
>>> in the display name field.
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "никита тарасов"
>>> <ntarasov29@...>
>>> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>>> Sent: Friday, November 03, 2017 6:41 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nvda] Firefox 57 etc
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hello. I don't think it's worth installing Mozila 57 until she's fully
>>> available to NVDA.
>>> Отправлено из Почты для Windows 10
>>>
>>> От: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
>>> Отправлено: 3 ноября 2017 г. в 21:17
>>> Кому: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>>> Тема: Re: [nvda] Firefox 57 etc
>>>
>>> Yes I saw a message on the issues list from James, about some fixing
>>> for
>>> version 58, so maybe it will get resolved from the currently unusable
>>> state.
>>> Its new users of any screenreader I feel sorry for, especially where
>>> its a
>>> shared machine and the sighted member just lets firefox update.
>>> There are a couple of other issues. It disabled both my add ons,
>>> navigational sounds and Ublock Origin ad blocker and even when I put
>>> the
>>> version 52 back on I had to re download both add ons and install them
>>> again.
>>> Not only that but nvda after the update could not read the screen of
>>> the add
>>> ons manager, I had to exit  firefox completely and go back in again to
>>> see
>>> if they had installed correctly, I'm sure this was not the case prior
>>> to up
>>> and down dating the version I had, which was 55. How also does one set
>>> 52 to
>>> get security updates without letting it update to 57 as I see it wants
>>> to do
>>> till I set updates to no, ie not recommended.
>>> Brian
>>>
>>> bglists@...
>>> Sent via blueyonder.
>>> Please address personal email to:-
>>> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
>>> in the display name field.
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Mendoza"
>>> <lowvisiontek@...>
>>> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>>> Sent: Friday, November 03, 2017 10:31 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [nvda] Firefox 57 etc
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hi, Brian
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I have the same issue on the other machine, and that is the reason
>>>> why I
>>>> keep to shift instead to use the Firefox ESR version 52 but for now I
>>>> will
>>>> stick to this version because there is likely more stable in
>>>> performance
>>>> and never has a problem. And, once the issue has fix maybe I could go
>>>> for
>>>> to use and test it again.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Robert Mendoza
>>>>
>>>> On 11/3/2017 6:00 PM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
>>>>> With regard to this version of Firefox, and in addition to what
>>>>> Joseph
>>>>> posted about it. Here is what me acting as the average unaware
>>>>> updater
>>>>> found.
>>>>> After installation only the menus work, no content on the page is
>>>>> readable, you cannot go into any browse or focus mode. You just here
>>>>> unknown.
>>>>> Now there may well be some kind of setting that can be altered, I do
>>>>> not
>>>>> know, to achieve what he got, slow but functioning. I could not find
>>>>> any
>>>>> option for this. Not only that but it seemed to lose almost half
>>>>> of my
>>>>> bookmarks as well.
>>>>>
>>>>> So unless they fix this on the release version anyone trying to use
>>>>> Firefox 57 when it comes out with the latest version of nvda, and I
>>>>> am up
>>>>> to date with the master branch here, will not be able to do so unless
>>>>> they know how to make it work.
>>>>> If these people are employees then they will probably need the
>>>>> permission
>>>>> of an admin to reinstall a version like 55, and turn off auto
>>>>> updates. I
>>>>> have reinstalled 52 in actual fact and got my bookmarks back as
>>>>> well as
>>>>> functionality. To my mind the makers of Firefox at the current
>>>>> state of
>>>>> play should be able to see if screenreading software is on a machine
>>>>> in a
>>>>> similar way to Adobe reader or Jarte does, and prevent it from
>>>>> updating
>>>>> to an unworkable version.
>>>>> I cannot understand why they have not done this.
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyone care to comment?
>>>>> Brian
>>>>>
>>>>> bglists@...
>>>>> Sent via blueyonder.
>>>>> Please address personal email to:-
>>>>> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
>>>>> in the display name field.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>










Re: How to find the stable version of Firefox won’t be automatically updated

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Well if you read the debate, you will see I tested a beta and could not even find out how to turn on the ability to interact with anything but the menu bar in 57. I just don't have the patience to faff about in partly accessible dialogues while unknown is spouted all the time and in Windows 7, Narrator is not good enough to help me much.
I'm hoping that the claim in the info I've seen that all the checkboxes for stopping screenreader access will be off by default on the release version, but even then the priority of access info is reduced to speed up the browser for the sighted world from what I can gather.

Best left till they fix it, if they can actually come up with a way of doing it. I wonder why we need yet another api as we did for Edge for the very same reasons of paranoia. I will say no more as I do not want a flame war here as some people have the opposite view to myself and that is fine.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Paton" <patonplace@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, November 06, 2017 9:10 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] How to find the stable version of Firefox won’t be automatically updated


Hi Mary,

at least, on this system, Jaws and window-eyes failed spectacularly with
the 64-bit FF 52 ESR version. I recall NVDA working better, but I did
not perform in depth evaluations.


32-bit was ok with JFW 20 18 and window-eyes. .

I think there may be trouble ahead with ff 57 or 58, as security
weaknesses are being blocked in the canvas. Don't understand it, don't
even know if it will effect screen readers, but it might.




On Sun, 5 Nov 2017 11:41:06 -0600
"Gene" <gsasner@ripco.com> wrote:

I doubt there is much difference. We'll see what others have to say but if it were me, I'd use the 32 bit version because I don't know about add on compatibility with the 64 bit version. I also doubt there is any significant difference in performance between the two versions. But I'm basing those opinions and comments on very little information. I remember when Internet Explorer came outwith its 64 bit version that there were incompatible add ons and a lot of people used the 32 bit version for awhile.

Gene
----- Original Message -----


From: Mary Otten
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2017 11:32 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How to find the stable version of Firefox won’t be automatically updated


Thanks, Jean. I found the 64-bit version, which is what I assume I should use for new windows 10 64-bit machine.
Mary




Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 5, 2017, at 9:17 AM, Gene <gsasner@ripco.com> wrote:


Look for Firefox ESR (extended release).

Gene
----- original Message -----

From: Mary Otten
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2017 11:12 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] How to find the stable version of Firefox won’t be automatically updated


Hi all,
I went looking for the stable version of Firefox, the one that’s not going to auto update to number 57 when it comes out. I did find an off-line installer for version 53 on the website. I thought I remembered somebody saying that version 52 was what I wanted. But I’m not finding that. Does this go by another name? I’m hoping to find an off-line installer that I can put on a thumb drive and give to the person that I want to have stuff installed on this new PC before I bring it home.
Mary


Sent from my iPhone





Re: Firefox 57 etc

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

That is a bit of a sledgehammer way. You can set it in the options, but quite what all the choices do is not instantly obvious, except the one to say never update of course!
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "zahra" <nasrinkhaksar3@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, November 06, 2017 6:42 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Firefox 57 etc


just delete maintainance service in your control panel, i mean
uninstall it and go to options, advance, update and set your desires.

On 11/6/17, Sharni-Lee Ward <sharni-lee.ward@hotmail.com> wrote:
How can I make sure Firefox won't update? I don't want my go-to browser
to be unusable!


On 6/11/2017 10:17 AM, Stephen wrote:
I thought that was why there were beta versions before the main
release, to get these issues ironed out in the first place?
At 07:47 PM 11/5/2017, you wrote:
Well how does one actually get it to work then, I cannot get to
anything I can read in order to check if the option is set wrongly, I
was under the impression that it was supposed to be off by default.
this has not been my experience, either that or there are more
serious issues on the 32 bit version or it has problems in windows 7.
No My thrust and that of several others I know is that it has been
sprung on people. IE if there was a version of firefox that by
default could not be used by the sighted it would never leave the
developers.
My point is that I'm sick and tired of being a second class citizen
simply because I'm blind, and its about time these people got their
fingers out of their ears or wherever they put them, not wanting to
be rude and embraced accessibility at the start of a new concept not
half way through it.
Brian

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----- Original Message ----- From: "John Isige" <gwynn@tds.net>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2017 5:42 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Firefox 57 etc


My apologies, I misunderstood your rhetoric comment. That's what comes
of trying to do two things at once. Also to be clear, I'm not saying we
shouldn't question changes. I think it's fine and valuable to ask what
changes are being made and why they're being made. But there are some
people who seem to assume they're almost always bad and are the start
down a path for changes for the worst, it seems to me, and that's what I
object to. As you say, and a few others have reported this here as well,
the new Firefox with the option set correctly seems to be mostly fine,
if slow. And if not, as you've also pointed out, we have other browsers
to use until it gets straightened out.


I also think it's valuable to point out that these aren't ham-fisted
sledgehammer changes, they are perhaps fairly large changes sure, but
they're not being done just because, they're being done for a perfectly
valid security reason. I figured I'd better provide examples instead of
just telling people it's an issue, now we can all see the potential
problems with code injection. I should add, I'm really glad the new
update is mostly fine, though I might use the extended release myself. I
use Firefox as my daily browser and haven't really found any of the
others to my liking for various reasons, though I need to play with them
some more because of course accessibility keeps improving for them.


Man I remember the days of IE 6 or 7 when JFW's Firefox support wasn't
that great, and IE updated and JFW hadn't caught up yet. Called tech
support and they insisted I couldn't be running the new version of IE
because the new version of IE didn't work with JFW. At least we've got
some pretty decent alternatives nowadays. I'm not even sure if Firefox
was supported yet, it was ages ago when this happened, but I remember I
had all kinds of issues browsing until it got updated eventually. And
that line will stick in my head forever, "you can't be running that",
I'm like "dude it's right here on my machine"! I think I even cranked
speech up over the speakers and made it read the version number. Fun
times!


On 11/4/2017 23:45, Ron Canazzi wrote:
Hi John,


Boy, you really like to press home a point. I didn't fundamentally
disagree with you on any of that. In fact, according to beta testers,
Firefox 57 without the check box checked isn't very much different
than earlier versions. In addition, I have begun to use Edge for many
things. The only major issue I see with Edge and NVDA is it is a bit
erratic in forms mode. For example on the Send Space page where you
have to click on buttons and make descriptive editions if desired,
NVDA keeps slipping in and out of forms mode. I bet they nail this one
down either later this year or early next year. I can use Edge for
anything now including forms and similar editable pages--with some
difficulty.


I only objected to your wholesale condemnation of all blind people who
raised questions about changes in accessibility.



On 11/4/2017 9:57 PM, John Isige wrote:
Ah. Rhetoric. Like this.


http://blog.trendmicro.com/mozilla-firefox-exploit-enlists-pcs-advanced-botnet/





And this:


https://www.welivesecurity.com/2015/08/11/firefox-under-fire-anatomy-of-latest-0-day-attack/





The reason you're not hacked any more than other people is because
Firefox updates for security, i.e. the very thing people are
complaining
about now because it's updating in a way that happens to mess with
screen readers. It's true that, so far as I know, neither of these
injection attacks are the kind of code injection screen readers do.
That's because screen readers are local though and not using something
like JavaScript, but that's about the only difference. And you should
particularly note from the second link that the particular code
injection attack being discussed there allows reading and writing of
local files as well as uploading them. Have a credit card number
written
down somewhere for easy access? Get infected by that thing and it
could
very well be uploaded to a site for somebody else to try and use.


My point is, injection attacks happen, they're bad, and this is
another
way to try and stop them. There's a real purpose to this change,
whether
or not anybody happens to like or agree with it. It's not just
rhetoric,
there are real examples of it, as I've just demonstrated. There's
also a
way for screen readers to deal with browsers that doesn't involve code
injection, I believe this is how NVDA deals with Microsoft Edge
because
Edge doesn't allow code injection. That's also part of why everybody's
still working on Edge accessibility, sure, that way doesn't
materialize
overnight, it has to be implemented and I'm sure issues have to be
worked out with it, e.g. if a browser needs to expose certain
things it
doesn't currently.


I get that the change Firefox is making isn't ideal for us, I'm just
saying, there's a reason for it, and there are a lot of
alternatives to
using the new Firefox, including an older accessible version of
Firefox
if you don't feel like trying to change browsers and use Chrome or
Edge
until better accessibility for the new version of Firefox is worked
out.
There's no reason to assume that the sky is falling and that nothing
will ever get better because clearly, Firefox is going down the
road of
hating blind people and ignoring them entirely and thus we're all
crewed.


On 11/4/2017 19:13, Ron Canazzi wrote:
Hi John,


Besides all that rhetoric, Mozilla has set the 'disable all
accessibility features' item to unchecked by default. As long as you
don't turn it on by accident, there shouldn't be any problem. I don't
know what the chance of you getting infected or hacked by
something is
when this item is turned off, but I would imagine it isn't very high
because I don't see any greater number of blind people getting hacked
proportionately than sighted folks. Still there is an issue with
security now of days and it probably won't get any better for years.
Some people have already tested 57 with screen readers and were
careful not to check the box and things seem reasonably good.



On 11/4/2017 6:08 PM, John Isige wrote:
If you'd read all of the stuff in Freedom Scientific's post, you
would
have seen this link.


https://www.marcozehe.de/2017/09/29/rethinking-web-accessibility-on-windows/






Code injection is a horrible idea from a security standpoint and
also a
coding one. It was something that was necessary back in the day, but
probably isn't anymore. So that was a change that probably should
have
happened long before now anyway. It makes sense as a change and
it was
going to cause this issue whenever it happened. Not only do we have
several accessible browsers to choose from, we have an accessible
version of the one with the problem and one assumes work will be
done to
make the current version accessible. Seriously, do you people do
anything other than bitch about stuff? I'm beginning to wonder. I
get
that the transition is annoying, sure. but some times there are
actually
good reasons to change things, however annoying the transition
happens
to be, and honestly, this one isn't all that bad in the grand
scheme of
things.


On 11/4/2017 4:14, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
Indeed, However I am critical of Mozillas handling of this. Its not
often that the makers of Jaws put up a page about the pitfalls and
also criticise a particular company for being unthinking about
their
policy toward the VI community.

Let us hope that somebody in the management at that organisation
takes
us more seriously, however I'm not holding my breath, and I'm not
sure
if jamie working for them will help much if the culture is going
down
the road toward making all software inaccessible to stop
hacking. He
is probably not the most tactful person in the world as indeed
neither
am I. I can now afford to grow old disgracefully. Age has its
advantages as history does tend to repeat itself and we have all
been
here before, sadly.
Brian

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----- Original Message ----- From: "никиÑ,а Ñ,аÑ?Ð°Ñ Ð¾Ð²"
<ntarasov29@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2017 6:41 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Firefox 57 etc



Hello. I don't think it's worth installing Mozila 57 until she's
fully
available to NVDA.
ÐzÑ,пÑ?авлено из ÐYоÑ?Ñ,Ñ< Ð´Ð»Ñ Windows 10

ÐzÑ,: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
ÐzÑ,пÑ?авлено: 3 Ð½Ð¾Ñ Ð±Ñ?Ñ 2017 г. в 21:17
ÐsомÑf: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Тема: Re: [nvda] Firefox 57 etc

Yes I saw a message on the issues list from James, about some
fixing
for
version 58, so maybe it will get resolved from the currently
unusable
state.
Its new users of any screenreader I feel sorry for, especially
where
its a
shared machine and the sighted member just lets firefox update.
There are a couple of other issues. It disabled both my add ons,
navigational sounds and Ublock Origin ad blocker and even when I
put
the
version 52 back on I had to re download both add ons and install
them
again.
Not only that but nvda after the update could not read the
screen of
the add
ons manager, I had to exit firefox completely and go back in
again to
see
if they had installed correctly, I'm sure this was not the case
prior
to up
and down dating the version I had, which was 55. How also does one
set
52 to
get security updates without letting it update to 57 as I see it
wants
to do
till I set updates to no, ie not recommended.
Brian

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----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Mendoza"
<lowvisiontek@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2017 10:31 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Firefox 57 etc


Hi, Brian


I have the same issue on the other machine, and that is the reason
why I
keep to shift instead to use the Firefox ESR version 52 but for
now I
will
stick to this version because there is likely more stable in
performance
and never has a problem. And, once the issue has fix maybe I
could go
for
to use and test it again.


Robert Mendoza

On 11/3/2017 6:00 PM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
wrote:
With regard to this version of Firefox, and in addition to what
Joseph
posted about it. Here is what me acting as the average unaware
updater
found.
After installation only the menus work, no content on the page is
readable, you cannot go into any browse or focus mode. You just
here
unknown.
Now there may well be some kind of setting that can be altered,
I do
not
know, to achieve what he got, slow but functioning. I could not
find
any
option for this. Not only that but it seemed to lose almost half
of my
bookmarks as well.

So unless they fix this on the release version anyone trying
to use
Firefox 57 when it comes out with the latest version of nvda,
and I
am up
to date with the master branch here, will not be able to do so
unless
they know how to make it work.
If these people are employees then they will probably need the
permission
of an admin to reinstall a version like 55, and turn off auto
updates. I
have reinstalled 52 in actual fact and got my bookmarks back as
well as
functionality. To my mind the makers of Firefox at the current
state of
play should be able to see if screenreading software is on a
machine
in a
similar way to Adobe reader or Jarte does, and prevent it from
updating
to an unworkable version.
I cannot understand why they have not done this.

Anyone care to comment?
Brian

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--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the entire creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration from prophet Mohammad is:
indeed, imam husayn is the beacon of guidance and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
www.al-islam.org


Re: Problem with my screen

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Are you saying you have more than one screen on the machine, or just that you can bring an application into focus but its not actually on the screen for the sighted?

I think there is some missing info here, like as I said above about how many monitors and also what version of windows and nvda is in use here.

Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: <prem.translator@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, November 06, 2017 6:03 AM
Subject: [nvda] Problem with my screen


At my workplace, when I need to type something, I always type in WordPad before pasting it into Word. However, something happen to me.
I use NVDA. When I'm typing, my colleague always tell me that my screen is empty. It's really annoy me because they see it's empty while I know everything and can do all my work with NVDA.

Is there any shortcut to set my screen always focus on my working screen so anyone can see the thing in the same way as I heard from NVDA?

Thank you and really sorry for my English.


Re: Seri voices for NVDA?

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

That would be up to whoever the voices are made by. many voices are used on different synths, like Daniel (aka John Briggs), or Serena, but some may well be propriatory Apple voices, I do not know.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Shook" <chris0309@samobile.net>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2017 11:31 PM
Subject: [nvda] Seri voices for NVDA?


Hi,
Are the Seri voices available for NVDA anywhere? If not, are they available as sapi voices for windows anywhere?
Thanks
Chris


Re: Firefox 57 etc

Sharni-Lee Ward
 

I also don't know if it'd be safe for me to install any more programs on
my hard-drive, so I don't think getting the ESR is a good idea. (My
hard-drive has been making concerning clicking noises every now and
again for a while and a website I found said that's a sign of a failing
hard-drive. I have everything I want backed up and safely on my external
but one part of the site said installing new software might be a bad
idea. I mean, I'm not trying to recover anything with that software but
it might not be able to write it onto the disc, even though it mostly
works fine. I'm just a bit reluctant...)

On 6/11/2017 8:38 PM, Sharni-Lee Ward wrote:
Okay, I changed the setting in Options so that it will ask me if I want
an update installed.


It can be really really frustrating to try and access a site or features
of a site (I think of Tumblr and my inability to draft or queue posts
the normal way because the dropdown is invisible to NVDA). There was
also a video site someone told me to look for something on that I could
barely navigate and that was discouraging. I don't want it to be the
norm but I keep feeling like my tiny voice will go unheard because I'm
part of a minority. Emails like this make me even more concerned, tbh.


One more question I had looking at this version of the email thread. How
does one make a portable version of Firefox? It would be really nice to
be able to run my browser off my external drive in the event of an
emergency.


On 6/11/2017 8:24 PM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
I partly agree, but there is also a push to try to get web developers
to make sites accessible while they still can use newer ways of
working for the sighted. Modern coding after all allows one to read
the details of the browser in use by the  visitor and its not beyond
the wit of any developer to be adaptive. Pandering to every little
change will start to unravel the standards that guide development.
I am already finding sighted friends telling me we no long want bells
a whistles on web sites, we want something fast and easy to use, why
do they keep on redesigning what has already proved to work.
The new lamps for old thing was a war of getting folks attention in
those halcyon days of the start of the web, but now its seen as a tool
and not such a showpiece of how clever the site builder is, or should be.
Brian

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----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@ripco.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2017 1:58 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Firefox 57 etc


Exploits are only one reason these changes are being made.  Wasn't it
to this list that an article was sent yesterday from a site that
specializes in accessibility issues explaining why old methods must be
replaced by newer ones?  As sites become increasingly interactive, the
old methods are increasingly inadequate.  I just remembered the name
of the site.  It's Marcos Accessibility blog.  (spelling))  Evidently,
these changes in accessibility can't be just completely implemented in
new versions of Firefox but are under development.  We cannot assume
that they are being implemented as they are for lack of prior
planning.  The article Implies that their implementation is in some
way, part of their development.  We see constant examples of programs
becoming inaccessible or less accessible in new versions.
We see constant examples of accessibility being added after a program
is released rather than being developed with the program. That doesn't
mean that we should assume a reflexive attitude that every such
seeming occurrence is one.  This case may be an exception that people
will be very glad of as things develop.

In addition, people can experiment with new versions of Firefox and
use the ESR version on the same machine without losing access to
either whenever they wish.  Use the portable versions of both or the
installed version of one and the portable version of the other.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2017 2:55 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Firefox 57 etc


All very well, but you forget all the  masses of exploits used in other
software. I'm also saying this, if somebody said that this' ere screen
dis[play is a way in to Firefox lets make it invisible then it would
not be
changed to stop the exploit. That is the thrust I'm going for.
Unfortunately it is  a known fact that any code will have ways to get in
and exploit it. Everything man or woman does has an up side and a down
side
as there are always crooks around.
However these issues have been around for years and years and nobody did
sod all about it, till recently, and now its a mess because they did not
actually think about it they simply did a fix and we have to take the
left
overs till they fix it for us.

Lets hope that checkbox does end up unchecked in the release version as I
could not even find it so how con one alter it, I know! Hack the
registry!
grin.
Brian

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----- Original Message ----- From: "John Isige" <gwynn@tds.net>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2017 1:57 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Firefox 57 etc


Ah. Rhetoric. Like this.


http://blog.trendmicro.com/mozilla-firefox-exploit-enlists-pcs-advanced-botnet/



And this:


https://www.welivesecurity.com/2015/08/11/firefox-under-fire-anatomy-of-latest-0-day-attack/



The reason you're not hacked any more than other people is because
Firefox updates for security, i.e. the very thing people are complaining
about now because it's updating in a way that happens to mess with
screen readers. It's true that, so far as I know, neither of these
injection attacks are the kind of code injection screen readers do.
That's because screen readers are local though and not using something
like JavaScript, but that's about the only difference. And you should
particularly note from the second link that the particular code
injection attack being discussed there allows reading and writing of
local files as well as uploading them. Have a credit card number written
down somewhere for easy access? Get infected by that thing and it could
very well be uploaded to a site for somebody else to try and use.


My point is, injection attacks happen, they're bad, and this is another
way to try and stop them. There's a real purpose to this change, whether
or not anybody happens to like or agree with it. It's not just rhetoric,
there are real examples of it, as I've just demonstrated. There's also a
way for screen readers to deal with browsers that doesn't involve code
injection, I believe this is how NVDA deals with Microsoft Edge because
Edge doesn't allow code injection. That's also part of why everybody's
still working on Edge accessibility, sure, that way doesn't materialize
overnight, it has to be implemented and I'm sure issues have to be
worked out with it, e.g. if a browser needs to expose certain things it
doesn't currently.


I get that the change Firefox is making isn't ideal for us, I'm just
saying, there's a reason for it, and there are a lot of alternatives to
using the new Firefox, including an older accessible version of Firefox
if you don't feel like trying to change browsers and use Chrome or Edge
until better accessibility for the new version of Firefox is worked out.
There's no reason to assume that the sky is falling and that nothing
will ever get better because clearly, Firefox is going down the road of
hating blind people and ignoring them entirely and thus we're all crewed.


On 11/4/2017 19:13, Ron Canazzi wrote:
Hi John,


Besides all that rhetoric, Mozilla has set the 'disable all
accessibility features' item to unchecked by default.  As long as you
don't turn it on by accident, there shouldn't be any problem. I don't
know what the chance of you getting infected or hacked by something is
when this item is turned off, but I would imagine it isn't very high
because I don't see any greater number of blind people getting hacked
proportionately than sighted folks.  Still there is an issue with
security now of days and it probably won't get any better for years.
Some people have already tested 57 with screen readers and were
careful not to check the box and things seem reasonably good.



On 11/4/2017 6:08 PM, John Isige wrote:
If you'd read all of the stuff in Freedom Scientific's post, you would
have seen this link.


https://www.marcozehe.de/2017/09/29/rethinking-web-accessibility-on-windows/




Code injection is a horrible idea from a security standpoint and also a
coding one. It was something that was necessary back in the day, but
probably isn't anymore. So that was a change that probably should have
happened long before now anyway. It makes sense as a change and it was
going to cause this issue whenever it happened.  Not only do we have
several accessible browsers to choose from, we have an accessible
version of the one with the problem and one assumes work will be
done to
make the current version accessible. Seriously, do you people do
anything other than bitch about stuff? I'm beginning to wonder. I get
that the transition is annoying, sure. but some times there are
actually
good reasons to change things, however annoying the transition happens
to be, and honestly, this one isn't all that bad in the grand scheme of
things.


On 11/4/2017 4:14, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
Indeed, However I am critical of Mozillas handling of this. Its not
often that the makers of Jaws put up a page about the pitfalls and
also criticise a particular company for being unthinking about their
policy toward the  VI community.

Let us hope that somebody in the management at that organisation takes
us more seriously, however I'm not holding my breath, and I'm not sure
if jamie working for them will help much if the culture is going down
the road toward making all software inaccessible to stop hacking. He
is probably not the most tactful person in the world as indeed neither
am I. I can now afford to grow old disgracefully. Age has its
advantages as history does tend to repeat itself and we have all been
here before, sadly.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
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----- Original Message ----- From: "никита тарасов"
<ntarasov29@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2017 6:41 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Firefox 57 etc



Hello. I don't think it's worth installing Mozila 57 until she's fully
available to NVDA.
Отправлено из Почты для Windows 10

От: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Отправлено: 3 ноября 2017 г. в 21:17
Кому: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Тема: Re: [nvda] Firefox 57 etc

Yes I saw a message on the issues list from James, about some fixing
for
version 58, so maybe it will get resolved from the currently unusable
state.
Its new users of any screenreader I feel sorry for, especially where
its a
shared machine and the sighted member just lets firefox update.
There are a couple of other issues. It disabled both my add ons,
navigational sounds and Ublock Origin ad blocker and even when I put
the
version 52 back on I had to re download both add ons and install them
again.
Not only that but nvda after the update could not read the screen of
the add
ons manager, I had to exit  firefox completely and go back in again to
see
if they had installed correctly, I'm sure this was not the case prior
to up
and down dating the version I had, which was 55. How also does one set
52 to
get security updates without letting it update to 57 as I see it wants
to do
till I set updates to no, ie not recommended.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
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----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Mendoza"
<lowvisiontek@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2017 10:31 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Firefox 57 etc


Hi, Brian


I have the same issue on the other machine, and that is the reason
why I
keep to shift instead to use the Firefox ESR version 52 but for now I
will
stick to this version because there is likely more stable in
performance
and never has a problem. And, once the issue has fix maybe I could go
for
to use and test it again.


Robert Mendoza

On 11/3/2017 6:00 PM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
With regard to this version of Firefox, and in addition to what
Joseph
posted about it. Here is what me acting as the average unaware
updater
found.
After installation only the menus work, no content on the page is
readable, you cannot go into any browse or focus mode. You just here
unknown.
Now there may well be some kind of setting that can be altered, I do
not
know, to achieve what he got, slow but functioning. I could not find
any
option for this. Not only that but it seemed to lose almost half
of my
bookmarks as well.

So unless they fix this on the release version anyone trying to use
Firefox 57 when it comes out with the latest version of nvda, and I
am up
to date with the master branch here, will not be able to do so
unless
they know how to make it work.
If these people are employees then they will probably need the
permission
of an admin to reinstall a version like 55, and turn off auto
updates. I
have reinstalled 52 in actual fact and got my bookmarks back as
well as
functionality. To my mind the makers of Firefox at the current
state of
play should be able to see if screenreading software is on a machine
in a
similar way to Adobe reader or Jarte does, and prevent it from
updating
to an unworkable version.
I cannot understand why they have not done this.

Anyone care to comment?
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
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Re: Firefox stuck

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

What add ons are installed? There used to be one that stored all the tabs and opened them again on the next session, other than this, perhaps you have some malware or just a corrupted settings system somewhere.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "slery" <slerythema@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2017 6:35 PM
Subject: [nvda] Firefox stuck


This morning when I opened Firefox, it opened my last window and then it
kept opening new windows. Using task manager to close showed 153 open windows.

I did not update when it kept bugging me to update.
Cindy




Re: can't access my messages in seamonkey

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

It is odd as as long as Imap and pop3 are enabled and you tick the right bits, I even have no issues on old Outlook Express, which has to be older code than the Mozilla clients.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Ballou" <cyberpro224@outlook.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2017 5:46 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] can't access my messages in seamonkey


Hi Rose Marie,


Strange, it's not the first time that I've heard an seen on 2 separate but recent occasions that G mail, Thunderbird, and sea monkey have some sort of issue, whether it be signing in, sending or receiving messages. I wish I had an answer for you about this but I'm at a loss.


Tony

On 11/4/2017 10:52 PM, Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
Hi, everyone,

I can't find any of my messages in seamonkey. What could I be doing wrong? I tried signing in to my gmail account but seamonkey wouldn't accept the information when I know it's correct. What am I doing wrong?

Thanks for your help in advance.

Rosemarie


Re: Firefox 57 etc

Sharni-Lee Ward
 

Okay, I changed the setting in Options so that it will ask me if I want
an update installed.


It can be really really frustrating to try and access a site or features
of a site (I think of Tumblr and my inability to draft or queue posts
the normal way because the dropdown is invisible to NVDA). There was
also a video site someone told me to look for something on that I could
barely navigate and that was discouraging. I don't want it to be the
norm but I keep feeling like my tiny voice will go unheard because I'm
part of a minority. Emails like this make me even more concerned, tbh.


One more question I had looking at this version of the email thread. How
does one make a portable version of Firefox? It would be really nice to
be able to run my browser off my external drive in the event of an
emergency.

On 6/11/2017 8:24 PM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
I partly agree, but there is also a push to try to get web developers
to make sites accessible while they still can use newer ways of
working for the sighted. Modern coding after all allows one to read
the details of the browser in use by the  visitor and its not beyond
the wit of any developer to be adaptive. Pandering to every little
change will start to unravel the standards that guide development.
I am already finding sighted friends telling me we no long want bells
a whistles on web sites, we want something fast and easy to use, why
do they keep on redesigning what has already proved to work.
The new lamps for old thing was a war of getting folks attention in
those halcyon days of the start of the web, but now its seen as a tool
and not such a showpiece of how clever the site builder is, or should be.
Brian

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----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@ripco.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2017 1:58 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Firefox 57 etc


Exploits are only one reason these changes are being made.  Wasn't it
to this list that an article was sent yesterday from a site that
specializes in accessibility issues explaining why old methods must be
replaced by newer ones?  As sites become increasingly interactive, the
old methods are increasingly inadequate.  I just remembered the name
of the site.  It's Marcos Accessibility blog.  (spelling))  Evidently,
these changes in accessibility can't be just completely implemented in
new versions of Firefox but are under development.  We cannot assume
that they are being implemented as they are for lack of prior
planning.  The article Implies that their implementation is in some
way, part of their development.  We see constant examples of programs
becoming inaccessible or less accessible in new versions.
We see constant examples of accessibility being added after a program
is released rather than being developed with the program. That doesn't
mean that we should assume a reflexive attitude that every such
seeming occurrence is one.  This case may be an exception that people
will be very glad of as things develop.

In addition, people can experiment with new versions of Firefox and
use the ESR version on the same machine without losing access to
either whenever they wish.  Use the portable versions of both or the
installed version of one and the portable version of the other.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2017 2:55 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Firefox 57 etc


All very well, but you forget all the  masses of exploits used in other
software. I'm also saying this, if somebody said that this' ere screen
dis[play is a way in to Firefox lets make it invisible then it would
not be
changed to stop the exploit. That is the thrust I'm going for.
Unfortunately it is  a known fact that any code will have ways to get in
and exploit it. Everything man or woman does has an up side and a down
side
as there are always crooks around.
However these issues have been around for years and years and nobody did
sod all about it, till recently, and now its a mess because they did not
actually think about it they simply did a fix and we have to take the
left
overs till they fix it for us.

Lets hope that checkbox does end up unchecked in the release version as I
could not even find it so how con one alter it, I know! Hack the
registry!
grin.
Brian

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----- Original Message ----- From: "John Isige" <gwynn@tds.net>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2017 1:57 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Firefox 57 etc


Ah. Rhetoric. Like this.


http://blog.trendmicro.com/mozilla-firefox-exploit-enlists-pcs-advanced-botnet/



And this:


https://www.welivesecurity.com/2015/08/11/firefox-under-fire-anatomy-of-latest-0-day-attack/



The reason you're not hacked any more than other people is because
Firefox updates for security, i.e. the very thing people are complaining
about now because it's updating in a way that happens to mess with
screen readers. It's true that, so far as I know, neither of these
injection attacks are the kind of code injection screen readers do.
That's because screen readers are local though and not using something
like JavaScript, but that's about the only difference. And you should
particularly note from the second link that the particular code
injection attack being discussed there allows reading and writing of
local files as well as uploading them. Have a credit card number written
down somewhere for easy access? Get infected by that thing and it could
very well be uploaded to a site for somebody else to try and use.


My point is, injection attacks happen, they're bad, and this is another
way to try and stop them. There's a real purpose to this change, whether
or not anybody happens to like or agree with it. It's not just rhetoric,
there are real examples of it, as I've just demonstrated. There's also a
way for screen readers to deal with browsers that doesn't involve code
injection, I believe this is how NVDA deals with Microsoft Edge because
Edge doesn't allow code injection. That's also part of why everybody's
still working on Edge accessibility, sure, that way doesn't materialize
overnight, it has to be implemented and I'm sure issues have to be
worked out with it, e.g. if a browser needs to expose certain things it
doesn't currently.


I get that the change Firefox is making isn't ideal for us, I'm just
saying, there's a reason for it, and there are a lot of alternatives to
using the new Firefox, including an older accessible version of Firefox
if you don't feel like trying to change browsers and use Chrome or Edge
until better accessibility for the new version of Firefox is worked out.
There's no reason to assume that the sky is falling and that nothing
will ever get better because clearly, Firefox is going down the road of
hating blind people and ignoring them entirely and thus we're all crewed.


On 11/4/2017 19:13, Ron Canazzi wrote:
Hi John,


Besides all that rhetoric, Mozilla has set the 'disable all
accessibility features' item to unchecked by default.  As long as you
don't turn it on by accident, there shouldn't be any problem. I don't
know what the chance of you getting infected or hacked by something is
when this item is turned off, but I would imagine it isn't very high
because I don't see any greater number of blind people getting hacked
proportionately than sighted folks.  Still there is an issue with
security now of days and it probably won't get any better for years.
Some people have already tested 57 with screen readers and were
careful not to check the box and things seem reasonably good.



On 11/4/2017 6:08 PM, John Isige wrote:
If you'd read all of the stuff in Freedom Scientific's post, you would
have seen this link.


https://www.marcozehe.de/2017/09/29/rethinking-web-accessibility-on-windows/




Code injection is a horrible idea from a security standpoint and also a
coding one. It was something that was necessary back in the day, but
probably isn't anymore. So that was a change that probably should have
happened long before now anyway. It makes sense as a change and it was
going to cause this issue whenever it happened.  Not only do we have
several accessible browsers to choose from, we have an accessible
version of the one with the problem and one assumes work will be
done to
make the current version accessible. Seriously, do you people do
anything other than bitch about stuff? I'm beginning to wonder. I get
that the transition is annoying, sure. but some times there are
actually
good reasons to change things, however annoying the transition happens
to be, and honestly, this one isn't all that bad in the grand scheme of
things.


On 11/4/2017 4:14, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
Indeed, However I am critical of Mozillas handling of this. Its not
often that the makers of Jaws put up a page about the pitfalls and
also criticise a particular company for being unthinking about their
policy toward the  VI community.

Let us hope that somebody in the management at that organisation takes
us more seriously, however I'm not holding my breath, and I'm not sure
if jamie working for them will help much if the culture is going down
the road toward making all software inaccessible to stop hacking. He
is probably not the most tactful person in the world as indeed neither
am I. I can now afford to grow old disgracefully. Age has its
advantages as history does tend to repeat itself and we have all been
here before, sadly.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
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briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
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----- Original Message ----- From: "никита тарасов"
<ntarasov29@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2017 6:41 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Firefox 57 etc



Hello. I don't think it's worth installing Mozila 57 until she's fully
available to NVDA.
Отправлено из Почты для Windows 10

От: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Отправлено: 3 ноября 2017 г. в 21:17
Кому: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Тема: Re: [nvda] Firefox 57 etc

Yes I saw a message on the issues list from James, about some fixing
for
version 58, so maybe it will get resolved from the currently unusable
state.
Its new users of any screenreader I feel sorry for, especially where
its a
shared machine and the sighted member just lets firefox update.
There are a couple of other issues. It disabled both my add ons,
navigational sounds and Ublock Origin ad blocker and even when I put
the
version 52 back on I had to re download both add ons and install them
again.
Not only that but nvda after the update could not read the screen of
the add
ons manager, I had to exit  firefox completely and go back in again to
see
if they had installed correctly, I'm sure this was not the case prior
to up
and down dating the version I had, which was 55. How also does one set
52 to
get security updates without letting it update to 57 as I see it wants
to do
till I set updates to no, ie not recommended.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
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briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
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----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Mendoza"
<lowvisiontek@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2017 10:31 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Firefox 57 etc


Hi, Brian


I have the same issue on the other machine, and that is the reason
why I
keep to shift instead to use the Firefox ESR version 52 but for now I
will
stick to this version because there is likely more stable in
performance
and never has a problem. And, once the issue has fix maybe I could go
for
to use and test it again.


Robert Mendoza

On 11/3/2017 6:00 PM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
With regard to this version of Firefox, and in addition to what
Joseph
posted about it. Here is what me acting as the average unaware
updater
found.
After installation only the menus work, no content on the page is
readable, you cannot go into any browse or focus mode. You just here
unknown.
Now there may well be some kind of setting that can be altered, I do
not
know, to achieve what he got, slow but functioning. I could not find
any
option for this. Not only that but it seemed to lose almost half
of my
bookmarks as well.

So unless they fix this on the release version anyone trying to use
Firefox 57 when it comes out with the latest version of nvda, and I
am up
to date with the master branch here, will not be able to do so
unless
they know how to make it work.
If these people are employees then they will probably need the
permission
of an admin to reinstall a version like 55, and turn off auto
updates. I
have reinstalled 52 in actual fact and got my bookmarks back as
well as
functionality. To my mind the makers of Firefox at the current
state of
play should be able to see if screenreading software is on a machine
in a
similar way to Adobe reader or Jarte does, and prevent it from
updating
to an unworkable version.
I cannot understand why they have not done this.

Anyone care to comment?
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
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Re: How to find the stable version of Firefox won’t be automatically updated

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

ERm, well its up to you, but I tend to prefer the 32 bi5t one for stability, but if you have liked 64 bit and get on with it then Its OK, could cause issues if you change versions.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Mary Otten" <motten53@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2017 5:32 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] How to find the stable version of Firefox won’t be automatically updated


Thanks, Jean. I found the 64-bit version, which is what I assume I should use for new windows 10 64-bit machine.
Mary


Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 5, 2017, at 9:17 AM, Gene <gsasner@ripco.com> wrote:

Look for Firefox ESR (extended release).

Gene
----- original Message -----
From: Mary Otten
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2017 11:12 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] How to find the stable version of Firefox won’t be automatically updated

Hi all,
I went looking for the stable version of Firefox, the one that’s not going to auto update to number 57 when it comes out. I did find an off-line installer for version 53 on the website. I thought I remembered somebody saying that version 52 was what I wanted. But I’m not finding that. Does this go by another name? I’m hoping to find an off-line installer that I can put on a thumb drive and give to the person that I want to have stuff installed on this new PC before I bring it home.
Mary


Sent from my iPhone



Re: Firefox 57 etc

Gene
 

No, do not delete maintenance service.  I haven't looked into what it is, whether it is installed by Firefox or whether it is something else.  But you don't want to stop Firefox from receiving updates.  If you do, Firefox won't receive security updates.  That means that it will become increasingly vulnerable to security exploits.  The whole point of running the ESR version is so that the program will receive security updates but not upgrade the actual version of the program. 
 
Use the ESR, extended release version of Firefox.  Set updates to notify you but not install if you wish instead of on automatically update, but don't set updates to never update. 
 

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: zahra
Sent: Monday, November 06, 2017 12:42 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Firefox 57 etc

just delete maintainance service in your control panel, i mean
uninstall it and go to options, advance, update and set your desires.

On 11/6/17, Sharni-Lee Ward <sharni-lee.ward@...> wrote:
> How can I make sure Firefox won't update? I don't want my go-to browser
> to be unusable!
>
>
> On 6/11/2017 10:17 AM, Stephen wrote:
>> I thought that was why there were beta versions before the main
>> release, to get these issues ironed out in the first place?
>> At 07:47 PM 11/5/2017, you wrote:
>>> Well how does one actually get it to work then, I cannot get to
>>> anything I can read in order to check if the option is set wrongly, I
>>> was under the impression that it was supposed to be off by default.
>>> this has not been my experience, either that or there are more
>>> serious issues on the 32 bit version or it has problems in windows 7.
>>> No My thrust and that of several others I know is that it has been
>>> sprung on people. IE if there was a version of firefox that by
>>> default could not be used by the sighted it would never leave the
>>> developers.
>>> My point is that I'm sick and tired of being a second class citizen
>>> simply because I'm blind, and its about time these people got their
>>> fingers out of their ears or wherever they put them, not wanting to
>>> be rude and embraced accessibility at the start of a new concept not
>>> half way through it.
>>> Brian
>>>
>>> bglists@...
>>> Sent via blueyonder.
>>> Please address personal email to:-
>>> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
>>> in the display name field.
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Isige" <gwynn@...>
>>> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2017 5:42 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [nvda] Firefox 57 etc
>>>
>>>
>>> My apologies, I misunderstood your rhetoric comment. That's what comes
>>> of trying to do two things at once. Also to be clear, I'm not saying we
>>> shouldn't question changes. I think it's fine and valuable to ask what
>>> changes are being made and why they're being made. But there are some
>>> people who seem to assume they're almost always bad and are the start
>>> down a path for changes for the worst, it seems to me, and that's what I
>>> object to. As you say, and a few others have reported this here as well,
>>> the new Firefox with the option set correctly seems to be mostly fine,
>>> if slow. And if not, as you've also pointed out, we have other browsers
>>> to use until it gets straightened out.
>>>
>>>
>>> I also think it's valuable to point out that these aren't ham-fisted
>>> sledgehammer changes, they are perhaps fairly large changes sure, but
>>> they're not being done just because, they're being done for a perfectly
>>> valid security reason. I figured I'd better provide examples instead of
>>> just telling people it's an issue, now we can all see the potential
>>> problems with code injection. I should add, I'm really glad the new
>>> update is mostly fine, though I might use the extended release myself. I
>>> use Firefox as my daily browser and haven't really found any of the
>>> others to my liking for various reasons, though I need to play with them
>>> some more because of course accessibility keeps improving for them.
>>>
>>>
>>> Man I remember the days of IE 6 or 7 when JFW's Firefox support wasn't
>>> that great, and IE updated and JFW hadn't caught up yet. Called tech
>>> support and they insisted I couldn't be running the new version of IE
>>> because the new version of IE didn't work with JFW. At least we've got
>>> some pretty decent alternatives nowadays. I'm not even sure if Firefox
>>> was supported yet, it was ages ago when this happened, but I remember I
>>> had all kinds of issues browsing until it got updated eventually. And
>>> that line will stick in my head forever, "you can't be running that",
>>> I'm like "dude it's right here on my machine"! I think I even cranked
>>> speech up over the speakers and made it read the version number. Fun
>>> times!
>>>
>>>
>>> On 11/4/2017 23:45, Ron Canazzi wrote:
>>>> Hi John,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Boy, you really like to press home a point. I didn't fundamentally
>>>> disagree with you on any of that. In fact, according to beta testers,
>>>> Firefox 57 without the check box checked isn't very much different
>>>> than earlier versions. In addition, I have begun to use Edge for many
>>>> things. The only major issue I see with Edge and NVDA is it is a bit
>>>> erratic in forms mode. For example on the Send Space page where you
>>>> have to click on buttons and make descriptive editions if desired,
>>>> NVDA keeps slipping in and out of forms mode. I bet they nail this one
>>>> down either later this year or early next year. I can use Edge for
>>>> anything now including forms and similar editable pages--with some
>>>> difficulty.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I only objected to your wholesale condemnation of all blind people who
>>>> raised questions about changes in accessibility.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 11/4/2017 9:57 PM, John Isige wrote:
>>>>> Ah. Rhetoric. Like this.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://blog.trendmicro.com/mozilla-firefox-exploit-enlists-pcs-advanced-botnet/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> And this:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.welivesecurity.com/2015/08/11/firefox-under-fire-anatomy-of-latest-0-day-attack/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The reason you're not hacked any more than other people is because
>>>>> Firefox updates for security, i.e. the very thing people are
>>>>> complaining
>>>>> about now because it's updating in a way that happens to mess with
>>>>> screen readers. It's true that, so far as I know, neither of these
>>>>> injection attacks are the kind of code injection screen readers do.
>>>>> That's because screen readers are local though and not using something
>>>>> like JavaScript, but that's about the only difference. And you should
>>>>> particularly note from the second link that the particular code
>>>>> injection attack being discussed there allows reading and writing of
>>>>> local files as well as uploading them. Have a credit card number
>>>>> written
>>>>> down somewhere for easy access? Get infected by that thing and it
>>>>> could
>>>>> very well be uploaded to a site for somebody else to try and use.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> My point is, injection attacks happen, they're bad, and this is
>>>>> another
>>>>> way to try and stop them. There's a real purpose to this change,
>>>>> whether
>>>>> or not anybody happens to like or agree with it. It's not just
>>>>> rhetoric,
>>>>> there are real examples of it, as I've just demonstrated. There's
>>>>> also a
>>>>> way for screen readers to deal with browsers that doesn't involve code
>>>>> injection, I believe this is how NVDA deals with Microsoft Edge
>>>>> because
>>>>> Edge doesn't allow code injection. That's also part of why everybody's
>>>>> still working on Edge accessibility, sure, that way doesn't
>>>>> materialize
>>>>> overnight, it has to be implemented and I'm sure issues have to be
>>>>> worked out with it, e.g. if a browser needs to expose certain
>>>>> things it
>>>>> doesn't currently.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I get that the change Firefox is making isn't ideal for us, I'm just
>>>>> saying, there's a reason for it, and there are a lot of
>>>>> alternatives to
>>>>> using the new Firefox, including an older accessible version of
>>>>> Firefox
>>>>> if you don't feel like trying to change browsers and use Chrome or
>>>>> Edge
>>>>> until better accessibility for the new version of Firefox is worked
>>>>> out.
>>>>> There's no reason to assume that the sky is falling and that nothing
>>>>> will ever get better because clearly, Firefox is going down the
>>>>> road of
>>>>> hating blind people and ignoring them entirely and thus we're all
>>>>> crewed.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 11/4/2017 19:13, Ron Canazzi wrote:
>>>>>> Hi John,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Besides all that rhetoric, Mozilla has set the 'disable all
>>>>>> accessibility features' item to unchecked by default. As long as you
>>>>>> don't turn it on by accident, there shouldn't be any problem. I don't
>>>>>> know what the chance of you getting infected or hacked by
>>>>>> something is
>>>>>> when this item is turned off, but I would imagine it isn't very high
>>>>>> because I don't see any greater number of blind people getting hacked
>>>>>> proportionately than sighted folks. Still there is an issue with
>>>>>> security now of days and it probably won't get any better for years.
>>>>>> Some people have already tested 57 with screen readers and were
>>>>>> careful not to check the box and things seem reasonably good.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/4/2017 6:08 PM, John Isige wrote:
>>>>>>> If you'd read all of the stuff in Freedom Scientific's post, you
>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>> have seen this link.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.marcozehe.de/2017/09/29/rethinking-web-accessibility-on-windows/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Code injection is a horrible idea from a security standpoint and
>>>>>>> also a
>>>>>>> coding one. It was something that was necessary back in the day, but
>>>>>>> probably isn't anymore. So that was a change that probably should
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> happened long before now anyway. It makes sense as a change and
>>>>>>> it was
>>>>>>> going to cause this issue whenever it happened. Not only do we have
>>>>>>> several accessible browsers to choose from, we have an accessible
>>>>>>> version of the one with the problem and one assumes work will be
>>>>>>> done to
>>>>>>> make the current version accessible. Seriously, do you people do
>>>>>>> anything other than bitch about stuff? I'm beginning to wonder. I
>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>> that the transition is annoying, sure. but some times there are
>>>>>>> actually
>>>>>>> good reasons to change things, however annoying the transition
>>>>>>> happens
>>>>>>> to be, and honestly, this one isn't all that bad in the grand
>>>>>>> scheme of
>>>>>>> things.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 11/4/2017 4:14, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
>>>>>>>> Indeed, However I am critical of Mozillas handling of this. Its not
>>>>>>>> often that the makers of Jaws put up a page about the pitfalls and
>>>>>>>> also criticise a particular company for being unthinking about
>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>> policy toward the VI community.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Let us hope that somebody in the management at that organisation
>>>>>>>> takes
>>>>>>>> us more seriously, however I'm not holding my breath, and I'm not
>>>>>>>> sure
>>>>>>>> if jamie working for them will help much if the culture is going
>>>>>>>> down
>>>>>>>> the road toward making all software inaccessible to stop
>>>>>>>> hacking. He
>>>>>>>> is probably not the most tactful person in the world as indeed
>>>>>>>> neither
>>>>>>>> am I. I can now afford to grow old disgracefully. Age has its
>>>>>>>> advantages as history does tend to repeat itself and we have all
>>>>>>>> been
>>>>>>>> here before, sadly.
>>>>>>>> Brian
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> bglists@...
>>>>>>>> Sent via blueyonder.
>>>>>>>> Please address personal email to:-
>>>>>>>> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
>>>>>>>> in the display name field.
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "никиÑ,а Ñ,аÑ?Ð°Ñ Ð¾Ð²"
>>>>>>>> <ntarasov29@...>
>>>>>>>> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 03, 2017 6:41 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nvda] Firefox 57 etc
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hello. I don't think it's worth installing Mozila 57 until she's
>>>>>>>> fully
>>>>>>>> available to NVDA.
>>>>>>>> ÐzÑ,пÑ?авлено из ÐYоÑ?Ñ,Ñ< длѠ Windows 10
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ÐzÑ,: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
>>>>>>>> ÐzÑ,пÑ?авлено: 3 Ð½Ð¾Ñ Ð±Ñ?Ñ  2017 г. в 21:17
>>>>>>>> ÐsомÑf: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>>>>>>>> Тема: Re: [nvda] Firefox 57 etc
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes I saw a message on the issues list from James, about some
>>>>>>>> fixing
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> version 58, so maybe it will get resolved from the currently
>>>>>>>> unusable
>>>>>>>> state.
>>>>>>>> Its new users of any screenreader I feel sorry for, especially
>>>>>>>> where
>>>>>>>> its a
>>>>>>>> shared machine and the sighted member just lets firefox update.
>>>>>>>> There are a couple of other issues. It disabled both my add ons,
>>>>>>>> navigational sounds and Ublock Origin ad blocker and even when I
>>>>>>>> put
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> version 52 back on I had to re download both add ons and install
>>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>>> again.
>>>>>>>> Not only that but nvda after the update could not read the
>>>>>>>> screen of
>>>>>>>> the add
>>>>>>>> ons manager, I had to exit firefox completely and go back in
>>>>>>>> again to
>>>>>>>> see
>>>>>>>> if they had installed correctly, I'm sure this was not the case
>>>>>>>> prior
>>>>>>>> to up
>>>>>>>> and down dating the version I had, which was 55. How also does one
>>>>>>>> set
>>>>>>>> 52 to
>>>>>>>> get security updates without letting it update to 57 as I see it
>>>>>>>> wants
>>>>>>>> to do
>>>>>>>> till I set updates to no, ie not recommended.
>>>>>>>> Brian
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> bglists@...
>>>>>>>> Sent via blueyonder.
>>>>>>>> Please address personal email to:-
>>>>>>>> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
>>>>>>>> in the display name field.
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Mendoza"
>>>>>>>> <lowvisiontek@...>
>>>>>>>> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 03, 2017 10:31 AM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nvda] Firefox 57 etc
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi, Brian
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I have the same issue on the other machine, and that is the reason
>>>>>>>>> why I
>>>>>>>>> keep to shift instead to use the Firefox ESR version 52 but for
>>>>>>>>> now I
>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>> stick to this version because there is likely more stable in
>>>>>>>>> performance
>>>>>>>>> and never has a problem. And, once the issue has fix maybe I
>>>>>>>>> could go
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> to use and test it again.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Robert Mendoza
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 11/3/2017 6:00 PM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> With regard to this version of Firefox, and in addition to what
>>>>>>>>>> Joseph
>>>>>>>>>> posted about it. Here is what me acting as the average unaware
>>>>>>>>>> updater
>>>>>>>>>> found.
>>>>>>>>>> After installation only the menus work, no content on the page is
>>>>>>>>>> readable, you cannot go into any browse or focus mode. You just
>>>>>>>>>> here
>>>>>>>>>> unknown.
>>>>>>>>>> Now there may well be some kind of setting that can be altered,
>>>>>>>>>> I do
>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>> know, to achieve what he got, slow but functioning. I could not
>>>>>>>>>> find
>>>>>>>>>> any
>>>>>>>>>> option for this. Not only that but it seemed to lose almost half
>>>>>>>>>> of my
>>>>>>>>>> bookmarks as well.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So unless they fix this on the release version anyone trying
>>>>>>>>>> to use
>>>>>>>>>> Firefox 57 when it comes out with the latest version of nvda,
>>>>>>>>>> and I
>>>>>>>>>> am up
>>>>>>>>>> to date with the master branch here, will not be able to do so
>>>>>>>>>> unless
>>>>>>>>>> they know how to make it work.
>>>>>>>>>> If these people are employees then they will probably need the
>>>>>>>>>> permission
>>>>>>>>>> of an admin to reinstall a version like 55, and turn off auto
>>>>>>>>>> updates. I
>>>>>>>>>> have reinstalled 52 in actual fact and got my bookmarks back as
>>>>>>>>>> well as
>>>>>>>>>> functionality. To my mind the makers of Firefox at the current
>>>>>>>>>> state of
>>>>>>>>>> play should be able to see if screenreading software is on a
>>>>>>>>>> machine
>>>>>>>>>> in a
>>>>>>>>>> similar way to Adobe reader or Jarte does, and prevent it from
>>>>>>>>>> updating
>>>>>>>>>> to an unworkable version.
>>>>>>>>>> I cannot understand why they have not done this.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Anyone care to comment?
>>>>>>>>>> Brian
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> bglists@...
>>>>>>>>>> Sent via blueyonder.
>>>>>>>>>> Please address personal email to:-
>>>>>>>>>> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
>>>>>>>>>> in the display name field.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>


--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the entire creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration from prophet Mohammad is:
indeed, imam husayn is the beacon of guidance and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
www.al-islam.org




Re: How to find the stable version of Firefox won’t be automatically updated

 

hi.
blocked canvas is for fingerprinting.
it prevents hacking and finding informations from users and there
habits via fingerprinting and prevents spammers, advertisers and
trackers for tracking us!
hope that help, God bless you!

On 11/6/17, Joe Paton <patonplace@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Mary,

at least, on this system, Jaws and window-eyes failed spectacularly with
the 64-bit FF 52 ESR version. I recall NVDA working better, but I did
not perform in depth evaluations.


32-bit was ok with JFW 20 18 and window-eyes. .

I think there may be trouble ahead with ff 57 or 58, as security
weaknesses are being blocked in the canvas. Don't understand it, don't
even know if it will effect screen readers, but it might.




On Sun, 5 Nov 2017 11:41:06 -0600
"Gene" <gsasner@ripco.com> wrote:

I doubt there is much difference. We'll see what others have to say but
if it were me, I'd use the 32 bit version because I don't know about add
on compatibility with the 64 bit version. I also doubt there is any
significant difference in performance between the two versions. But I'm
basing those opinions and comments on very little information. I remember
when Internet Explorer came outwith its 64 bit version that there were
incompatible add ons and a lot of people used the 32 bit version for
awhile.

Gene
----- Original Message -----


From: Mary Otten
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2017 11:32 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How to find the stable version of Firefox won’t be
automatically updated


Thanks, Jean. I found the 64-bit version, which is what I assume I should
use for new windows 10 64-bit machine.
Mary




Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 5, 2017, at 9:17 AM, Gene <gsasner@ripco.com> wrote:


Look for Firefox ESR (extended release).

Gene
----- original Message -----

From: Mary Otten
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2017 11:12 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] How to find the stable version of Firefox won’t be
automatically updated


Hi all,
I went looking for the stable version of Firefox, the one that’s not
going to auto update to number 57 when it comes out. I did find an
off-line installer for version 53 on the website. I thought I remembered
somebody saying that version 52 was what I wanted. But I’m not finding
that. Does this go by another name? I’m hoping to find an off-line
installer that I can put on a thumb drive and give to the person that I
want to have stuff installed on this new PC before I bring it home.
Mary


Sent from my iPhone






--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the entire creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration from prophet Mohammad is:
indeed, imam husayn is the beacon of guidance and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
www.al-islam.org


Re: How to find the stable version of Firefox won’t be automatically updated

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Well I see filehippo say they have it but when I downloaded or tried to yesterday it came up error in zero byte or some such, so maybe the site is maxed out.
I did eventually find it on the Mozilla site but to say its a convoluted process to get at would be an understatement as it seems to exist on an ftp site. Not terribly friendly on that site.
I however still had to turn off the updates completely as it kept wanting to install 56 anyway, so any instructions on how to make it only get security updates would be nice as I do also now have it on an exp machine as tits the last one that will work there.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mary Otten" <motten53@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2017 5:12 PM
Subject: [nvda] How to find the stable version of Firefox won’t be automatically updated


Hi all,
I went looking for the stable version of Firefox, the one that’s not going to auto update to number 57 when it comes out. I did find an off-line installer for version 53 on the website. I thought I remembered somebody saying that version 52 was what I wanted. But I’m not finding that. Does this go by another name? I’m hoping to find an off-line installer that I can put on a thumb drive and give to the person that I want to have stuff installed on this new PC before I bring it home.
Mary


Sent from my iPhone


Re: Firefox 57 etc

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

I partly agree, but there is also a push to try to get web developers to make sites accessible while they still can use newer ways of working for the sighted. Modern coding after all allows one to read the details of the browser in use by the visitor and its not beyond the wit of any developer to be adaptive. Pandering to every little change will start to unravel the standards that guide development.
I am already finding sighted friends telling me we no long want bells a whistles on web sites, we want something fast and easy to use, why do they keep on redesigning what has already proved to work.
The new lamps for old thing was a war of getting folks attention in those halcyon days of the start of the web, but now its seen as a tool and not such a showpiece of how clever the site builder is, or should be.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@ripco.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2017 1:58 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Firefox 57 etc


Exploits are only one reason these changes are being made. Wasn't it to this list that an article was sent yesterday from a site that specializes in accessibility issues explaining why old methods must be replaced by newer ones? As sites become increasingly interactive, the old methods are increasingly inadequate. I just remembered the name of the site. It's Marcos Accessibility blog. (spelling)) Evidently, these changes in accessibility can't be just completely implemented in new versions of Firefox but are under development. We cannot assume that they are being implemented as they are for lack of prior planning. The article Implies that their implementation is in some way, part of their development. We see constant examples of programs becoming inaccessible or less accessible in new versions.
We see constant examples of accessibility being added after a program is released rather than being developed with the program. That doesn't mean that we should assume a reflexive attitude that every such seeming occurrence is one. This case may be an exception that people will be very glad of as things develop.

In addition, people can experiment with new versions of Firefox and use the ESR version on the same machine without losing access to either whenever they wish. Use the portable versions of both or the installed version of one and the portable version of the other.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2017 2:55 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Firefox 57 etc


All very well, but you forget all the masses of exploits used in other
software. I'm also saying this, if somebody said that this' ere screen
dis[play is a way in to Firefox lets make it invisible then it would not be
changed to stop the exploit. That is the thrust I'm going for.
Unfortunately it is a known fact that any code will have ways to get in
and exploit it. Everything man or woman does has an up side and a down side
as there are always crooks around.
However these issues have been around for years and years and nobody did
sod all about it, till recently, and now its a mess because they did not
actually think about it they simply did a fix and we have to take the left
overs till they fix it for us.

Lets hope that checkbox does end up unchecked in the release version as I
could not even find it so how con one alter it, I know! Hack the registry!
grin.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "John Isige" <gwynn@tds.net>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2017 1:57 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Firefox 57 etc


Ah. Rhetoric. Like this.


http://blog.trendmicro.com/mozilla-firefox-exploit-enlists-pcs-advanced-botnet/


And this:


https://www.welivesecurity.com/2015/08/11/firefox-under-fire-anatomy-of-latest-0-day-attack/


The reason you're not hacked any more than other people is because
Firefox updates for security, i.e. the very thing people are complaining
about now because it's updating in a way that happens to mess with
screen readers. It's true that, so far as I know, neither of these
injection attacks are the kind of code injection screen readers do.
That's because screen readers are local though and not using something
like JavaScript, but that's about the only difference. And you should
particularly note from the second link that the particular code
injection attack being discussed there allows reading and writing of
local files as well as uploading them. Have a credit card number written
down somewhere for easy access? Get infected by that thing and it could
very well be uploaded to a site for somebody else to try and use.


My point is, injection attacks happen, they're bad, and this is another
way to try and stop them. There's a real purpose to this change, whether
or not anybody happens to like or agree with it. It's not just rhetoric,
there are real examples of it, as I've just demonstrated. There's also a
way for screen readers to deal with browsers that doesn't involve code
injection, I believe this is how NVDA deals with Microsoft Edge because
Edge doesn't allow code injection. That's also part of why everybody's
still working on Edge accessibility, sure, that way doesn't materialize
overnight, it has to be implemented and I'm sure issues have to be
worked out with it, e.g. if a browser needs to expose certain things it
doesn't currently.


I get that the change Firefox is making isn't ideal for us, I'm just
saying, there's a reason for it, and there are a lot of alternatives to
using the new Firefox, including an older accessible version of Firefox
if you don't feel like trying to change browsers and use Chrome or Edge
until better accessibility for the new version of Firefox is worked out.
There's no reason to assume that the sky is falling and that nothing
will ever get better because clearly, Firefox is going down the road of
hating blind people and ignoring them entirely and thus we're all crewed.


On 11/4/2017 19:13, Ron Canazzi wrote:
Hi John,


Besides all that rhetoric, Mozilla has set the 'disable all
accessibility features' item to unchecked by default. As long as you
don't turn it on by accident, there shouldn't be any problem. I don't
know what the chance of you getting infected or hacked by something is
when this item is turned off, but I would imagine it isn't very high
because I don't see any greater number of blind people getting hacked
proportionately than sighted folks. Still there is an issue with
security now of days and it probably won't get any better for years.
Some people have already tested 57 with screen readers and were
careful not to check the box and things seem reasonably good.



On 11/4/2017 6:08 PM, John Isige wrote:
If you'd read all of the stuff in Freedom Scientific's post, you would
have seen this link.


https://www.marcozehe.de/2017/09/29/rethinking-web-accessibility-on-windows/



Code injection is a horrible idea from a security standpoint and also a
coding one. It was something that was necessary back in the day, but
probably isn't anymore. So that was a change that probably should have
happened long before now anyway. It makes sense as a change and it was
going to cause this issue whenever it happened. Not only do we have
several accessible browsers to choose from, we have an accessible
version of the one with the problem and one assumes work will be done to
make the current version accessible. Seriously, do you people do
anything other than bitch about stuff? I'm beginning to wonder. I get
that the transition is annoying, sure. but some times there are actually
good reasons to change things, however annoying the transition happens
to be, and honestly, this one isn't all that bad in the grand scheme of
things.


On 11/4/2017 4:14, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
Indeed, However I am critical of Mozillas handling of this. Its not
often that the makers of Jaws put up a page about the pitfalls and
also criticise a particular company for being unthinking about their
policy toward the VI community.

Let us hope that somebody in the management at that organisation takes
us more seriously, however I'm not holding my breath, and I'm not sure
if jamie working for them will help much if the culture is going down
the road toward making all software inaccessible to stop hacking. He
is probably not the most tactful person in the world as indeed neither
am I. I can now afford to grow old disgracefully. Age has its
advantages as history does tend to repeat itself and we have all been
here before, sadly.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
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----- Original Message ----- From: "никита тарасов"
<ntarasov29@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2017 6:41 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Firefox 57 etc



Hello. I don't think it's worth installing Mozila 57 until she's fully
available to NVDA.
Отправлено из Почты для Windows 10

От: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Отправлено: 3 ноября 2017 г. в 21:17
Кому: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Тема: Re: [nvda] Firefox 57 etc

Yes I saw a message on the issues list from James, about some fixing
for
version 58, so maybe it will get resolved from the currently unusable
state.
Its new users of any screenreader I feel sorry for, especially where
its a
shared machine and the sighted member just lets firefox update.
There are a couple of other issues. It disabled both my add ons,
navigational sounds and Ublock Origin ad blocker and even when I put
the
version 52 back on I had to re download both add ons and install them
again.
Not only that but nvda after the update could not read the screen of
the add
ons manager, I had to exit firefox completely and go back in again to
see
if they had installed correctly, I'm sure this was not the case prior
to up
and down dating the version I had, which was 55. How also does one set
52 to
get security updates without letting it update to 57 as I see it wants
to do
till I set updates to no, ie not recommended.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
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----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Mendoza"
<lowvisiontek@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2017 10:31 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Firefox 57 etc


Hi, Brian


I have the same issue on the other machine, and that is the reason
why I
keep to shift instead to use the Firefox ESR version 52 but for now I
will
stick to this version because there is likely more stable in
performance
and never has a problem. And, once the issue has fix maybe I could go
for
to use and test it again.


Robert Mendoza

On 11/3/2017 6:00 PM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
With regard to this version of Firefox, and in addition to what
Joseph
posted about it. Here is what me acting as the average unaware
updater
found.
After installation only the menus work, no content on the page is
readable, you cannot go into any browse or focus mode. You just here
unknown.
Now there may well be some kind of setting that can be altered, I do
not
know, to achieve what he got, slow but functioning. I could not find
any
option for this. Not only that but it seemed to lose almost half
of my
bookmarks as well.

So unless they fix this on the release version anyone trying to use
Firefox 57 when it comes out with the latest version of nvda, and I
am up
to date with the master branch here, will not be able to do so unless
they know how to make it work.
If these people are employees then they will probably need the
permission
of an admin to reinstall a version like 55, and turn off auto
updates. I
have reinstalled 52 in actual fact and got my bookmarks back as
well as
functionality. To my mind the makers of Firefox at the current
state of
play should be able to see if screenreading software is on a machine
in a
similar way to Adobe reader or Jarte does, and prevent it from
updating
to an unworkable version.
I cannot understand why they have not done this.

Anyone care to comment?
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.














Issue with Outlook crashing

Amos Miller <Amos.Miller@...>
 

Hi there I’m new to NVDA and love it. Using the latest version and desktop Outlook on Office2016. If I switch from mail to calendar using CTRL+2 which is the shortcut key, Outlook crashes. This issue doesn’t happen if I tab to the navigation pane and move to Calendar there. This only happens with NVDA, not with JAWS or Narrator. Any thoughts?

 

Amos

 


Re: can't access my messages in seamonkey

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

The problem I have with all online email is that your address book is on line 24/7, and hence anyone that might want to has all day to hack, if you keep it locally and do not leave your device on line at all times this is not the case.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Griffith" <daj.griffith@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2017 12:32 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] can't access my messages in seamonkey


To be fair on more modern clients it is no problem.
So in Windows Mail on Windows 10 and my Mac machine you simply get passed through to the Gmail website where you have to confirm that this is a change that you wreally want to make. Then you are returned to your app and all works well but you get a security email telling you that your email is being accessed in another client/machine which in these days when so many email accounts get hacked, is probably understandable. I saw a thread on another list only yesterday where somebody has had their email hacked and spam mails were being sent out in his name.
David Griffith

My Blind Access and Guide dog Blog
http://dgriffithblog.wordpress.com/
My Blind hammer Blog
https://www.westhamtillidie.com/authors/blind-hammer/posts

From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: 05 November 2017 09:04
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] can't access my messages in seamonkey

I always turn this off as it seems to be a menace rather than a feature,
what they seem to mean is that unless you use their online system it might
not work.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Griffith" <daj.griffith@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2017 6:51 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] can't access my messages in seamonkey


Just a thought but do you have the allow less secure apps turned on in your
Gmail settings?
I am not sure apps like Sea Monkey will be allowed to access your Gmail
unless you specifically allow it. You may have to go to the Gmail website
and check your settings/notifications.
David Griffit
My Blind Access and Guide dog Blog
http://dgriffithblog.wordpress.com/
My Blind hammer Blog
https://www.westhamtillidie.com/authors/blind-hammer/posts

From: Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: 05 November 2017 02:52
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] can't access my messages in seamonkey

Hi, everyone,

I can't find any of my messages in seamonkey. What could I be doing wrong? I
tried signing in to my gmail account but seamonkey wouldn't accept the
information when I know it's correct. What am I doing wrong?

Thanks for your help in advance.

Rosemarie


Re: How to find the stable version of Firefox won’t be automatically updated

Joe Paton
 

Hi Mary,

at least, on this system, Jaws and window-eyes failed spectacularly with
the 64-bit FF 52 ESR version. I recall NVDA working better, but I did
not perform in depth evaluations.


32-bit was ok with JFW 20 18 and window-eyes. .

I think there may be trouble ahead with ff 57 or 58, as security
weaknesses are being blocked in the canvas. Don't understand it, don't
even know if it will effect screen readers, but it might.




On Sun, 5 Nov 2017 11:41:06 -0600
"Gene" <gsasner@ripco.com> wrote:

I doubt there is much difference. We'll see what others have to say but if it were me, I'd use the 32 bit version because I don't know about add on compatibility with the 64 bit version. I also doubt there is any significant difference in performance between the two versions. But I'm basing those opinions and comments on very little information. I remember when Internet Explorer came outwith its 64 bit version that there were incompatible add ons and a lot of people used the 32 bit version for awhile.

Gene
----- Original Message -----


From: Mary Otten
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2017 11:32 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How to find the stable version of Firefox won’t be automatically updated


Thanks, Jean. I found the 64-bit version, which is what I assume I should use for new windows 10 64-bit machine.
Mary




Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 5, 2017, at 9:17 AM, Gene <gsasner@ripco.com> wrote:


Look for Firefox ESR (extended release).

Gene
----- original Message -----

From: Mary Otten
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2017 11:12 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] How to find the stable version of Firefox won’t be automatically updated


Hi all,
I went looking for the stable version of Firefox, the one that’s not going to auto update to number 57 when it comes out. I did find an off-line installer for version 53 on the website. I thought I remembered somebody saying that version 52 was what I wanted. But I’m not finding that. Does this go by another name? I’m hoping to find an off-line installer that I can put on a thumb drive and give to the person that I want to have stuff installed on this new PC before I bring it home.
Mary


Sent from my iPhone



Re: Using Slack?

Sylvie Duchateau
 

Hello all,
I use Slakc with the iPhone app, which is rather accessible and with Chrome and Firefox.
NV access has developed a script making slack work with tampermonkey (a script manager for Firefox, Chrome, and other browsers).
I was able to activate notifications with a sound tone. I can go from one channel to another in pressing the go to next or previous link command (n and shift+n).
I can reach the list of recent messages by pressing h to next headings.
Each statement is structured in a bulleted list that you can browse from one statement to another by pressing i and shift+i.
You are informed when someone is writing and who is writing.
The url for all of this with all explanations is:
https://github.com/nvaccess/axSGrease
Best
Sylvie

Le 05/11/2017 à 15:43, Arthur BREUNEVAL via Groups.Io a écrit :
Hello,
I find the desktop app has been improved since the last year. It was not
usable at all before, but now I'm able to use it. I met some
difficulties to connect to the workspace, but playing with tab, arrow
keys and such, I was able to connect. When it was done, the navigation
is acceptable, I find. I've seen better accessibility in applications,
of course, but it still acceptable. I don't use the web app now, it is
quite slow for me in Firefox and I was not able to enable notifications.
Finallx, Slack offers a lot of shortcuts to navigate ùith the keyboard.
You can, for example, hit Alt + T to place the cursor into the text area
to type messages. You can review all keyboard shortcuts by hitting Alt +
A in Slack (at least, in the desktop app) : an accessible menu will pop
on, and here you can browse until you find "Keyboard Shortcuts...", or such.

Regards.



Arthur BREUNEVAL
Sent with Mozilla Thunderbird.

Le 05/11/2017 à 14:55, Bhavya shah a écrit :
Hi Brandon,
Slack with NVDA and Chrome is an accessible experience. What problems
are you facing specifically?
Thanks.

On 11/5/17, Robert Kingett <kingettr@gmail.com> wrote:
Get them to enable IRC support and get them to give you the IRC
information. I would suggest Miranda NG, Not Miranda IM, for an
accessible IRC client. That is the only way to use slack accessibly on
the desktop as of now. Slack says they have an accessibility team but
they are taking their sweet time to make accessibility changes. 2 years
now and they just added a colorblind theme. Compared to, say, Microsoft.




Re: Weather Plus 4.6 03.11.2017 update available

Adriano Barbieri
 

Hi,

Apparently, this problem happens only to you.
For some reason your installation is not successful.
The fact is detected, a "installTasks" is significant, because the Weather
Plus not using it anymore, by a lot.
There seems to be a conflict with the old version not deleted.

I repeat:
1. You need to uninstall Weather Plus, and then restart nvda.
2. Make sure that Weather Plus is no longer in the list of add-ons, test it
from tools, Manage addons...
3. Only if it's ok, install the new version.
http://www.nvda.it/files/plugin/weather_plus4.6.nvda-addon
Once you have restarted nvda, open the menu tools, Manage addons... and verify the
new version

Cheers
Adriano

----- Original Message -----
From: "Akbar S. Currim" <raahzam@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2017 2:51 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Weather Plus 4.6 03.11.2017 update available


Hi,

Here is the log after selecting the debug level. Please do help.
Thanks,
Akbar

INFO - __main__ (19:16:21.479):
Starting NVDA
INFO - core.main (19:16:21.986):
Config dir: C:\Users\raahz\AppData\Roaming\nvda
INFO - config.ConfigManager._loadConfig (19:16:21.987):
Loading config: C:\Users\raahz\AppData\Roaming\nvda\nvda.ini
INFO - config.ConfigManager._loadConfig (19:16:22.000):
Config loaded (after upgrade, and in the state it will be used by NVDA):
{u'schemaVersion': u'2', u'upgrade': {}, u'update': {u'autoCheck':
u'True'}, u'general': {u'showWelcomeDialogAtStartup': u'False',
u'language': u'Windows', u'saveConfigurationOnExit': u'True',
u'askToExit': u'True', u'playStartAndExitSounds': u'True',
u'loggingLevel': u'DEBUG'}, u'speech': {u'synth': u'eloquence',
u'outputDevice': u'Speakers (Realtek High Definiti',
u'autoDialectSwitching': u'False', u'symbolLevel': u'100',
u'autoLanguageSwitching': u'False', u'espeak': {u'voice': u'en',
u'variant': u'max', u'rate': u'20', u'pitch': u'40', u'inflection':
u'75', u'volume': u'100'}, u'eloquence': {u'voice': u'65536',
u'variant': u'1', u'pitch': u'62', u'inflection': u'30', u'volume':
u'92', u'rate': u'29', u'useSpellingFunctionality': u'False'},
u'sapi5': {u'voice':
u'HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\\SOFTWARE\\Microsoft\\Speech\\Voices\\Tokens\\TTS_MS_EN-US_DAVID_11.0',
u'volume': u'100', u'rate': u'55', u'useSpellingFunctionality':
u'False', u'capPitchChange': u'40'}, u'vocalizer_expressive2':
{u'voice': u'Oliver', u'variant': u'premium-high', u'volume': u'92',
u'pitch': u'68', u'rate': u'60', u'capPitchChange': u'40'}, u'sv':
{u'variant': u'0', u'voice': u'1', u'pitch': u'4', u'inflection':
u'25', u'perturb': u'0', u'vfactor': u'20', u'avbias': u'45',
u'afbias': u'45', u'ahbias': u'45', u'intstyle': u'0', u'vmode': u'0',
u'gender': u'0', u'glot': u'0', u'smode': u'0'}}, u'braille':
{u'noBraille': {u'port': u''}}, u'keyboard':
{u'useCapsLockAsNVDAModifierKey': u'True', u'keyboardLayout':
u'laptop', u'speakCommandKeys': u'False', u'alertForSpellingErrors':
u'False', u'speakTypedCharacters': u'True', u'speakTypedWords':
u'False'}, u'mouse': {u'enableMouseTracking': u'False'},
u'documentFormatting': {u'autoLanguageSwitching': u'False',
u'reportSpellingErrors': u'False', u'reportLineIndentation': u'False',
u'reportLineIndentationWithTones': u'False', u'reportClickable':
u'False', u'reportLandmarks': u'True'}, u'speechViewer': {u'x': u'85',
u'y': u'55', u'width': u'500', u'height': u'500', u'displays':
[u'(3200, 1800)'], u'autoPositionWindow': u'False'}, u'presentation':
{u'guessObjectPositionInformationWhenUnavailable': u'True',
u'reportDynamicContentChanges': u'False', u'reportObjectDescriptions':
u'True', u'reportTooltips': u'True', u'progressBarUpdates':
{u'progressBarOutputMode': u'both', u'reportBackgroundProgressBars':
u'True'}}, u'virtualBuffers': {u'useScreenLayout': u'False'},
u'audio': {u'audioDuckingMode': u'0'}, u'uwpOcr': {u'language':
u'en-GB'}, u'wintenApps': {u'updateCheckTime': u'1510302132'}}
DEBUG - core.main (19:16:22.125):
setting language to Windows
INFO - core.main (19:16:22.125):
NVDA version 2017.3
INFO - core.main (19:16:22.127):
Using Windows version 10.0.15063 workstation
INFO - core.main (19:16:22.127):
Using Python version 2.7.13 (v2.7.13:a06454b1afa1, Dec 17 2016,
20:42:59) [MSC v.1500 32 bit (Intel)]
INFO - core.main (19:16:22.127):
Using comtypes version 0.6.2
DEBUG - core.main (19:16:22.160):
Initializing add-ons system
DEBUG - addonHandler.Addon.loadModule (19:16:22.163):
Importing module installTasks from plugin Weather Plus
DEBUG - addonHandler._getAvailableAddonsFromPath (19:16:22.332):
Listing add-ons from C:\Users\raahz\AppData\Roaming\nvda\addons
DEBUG - addonHandler._getAvailableAddonsFromPath (19:16:22.332):
Loading add-on from C:\Users\raahz\AppData\Roaming\nvda\addons\bitChe
DEBUG - addonHandler._getAvailableAddonsFromPath (19:16:22.338):
Found add-on bitChe
DEBUG - addonHandler._getAvailableAddonsFromPath (19:16:22.338):
Loading add-on from
C:\Users\raahz\AppData\Roaming\nvda\addons\clipContentsDesigner
DEBUG - addonHandler._getAvailableAddonsFromPath (19:16:22.342):
Found add-on clipContentsDesigner
DEBUG - addonHandler._getAvailableAddonsFromPath (19:16:22.342):
Loading add-on from
C:\Users\raahz\AppData\Roaming\nvda\addons\dayOfTheWeek
DEBUG - addonHandler._getAvailableAddonsFromPath (19:16:22.348):
Found add-on dayOfTheWeek
DEBUG - addonHandler._getAvailableAddonsFromPath (19:16:22.348):
Loading add-on from
C:\Users\raahz\AppData\Roaming\nvda\addons\easyTableNavigator
DEBUG - addonHandler._getAvailableAddonsFromPath (19:16:22.352):
Found add-on easyTableNavigator
DEBUG - addonHandler._getAvailableAddonsFromPath (19:16:22.352):
Loading add-on from C:\Users\raahz\AppData\Roaming\nvda\addons\Eloquence
DEBUG - addonHandler._getAvailableAddonsFromPath (19:16:22.358):
Found add-on Eloquence
DEBUG - addonHandler._getAvailableAddonsFromPath (19:16:22.358):
Loading add-on from
C:\Users\raahz\AppData\Roaming\nvda\addons\instantTranslate
DEBUG - addonHandler._getAvailableAddonsFromPath (19:16:22.362):
Found add-on instantTranslate
DEBUG - addonHandler._getAvailableAddonsFromPath (19:16:22.364):
Loading add-on from
C:\Users\raahz\AppData\Roaming\nvda\addons\mp3DirectCut
DEBUG - addonHandler._getAvailableAddonsFromPath (19:16:22.368):
Found add-on mp3DirectCut
DEBUG - addonHandler._getAvailableAddonsFromPath (19:16:22.368):
Loading add-on from C:\Users\raahz\AppData\Roaming\nvda\addons\ocr
DEBUG - addonHandler._getAvailableAddonsFromPath (19:16:22.372):
Found add-on ocr
DEBUG - addonHandler._getAvailableAddonsFromPath (19:16:22.372):
Disabling add-on ocr
DEBUG - addonHandler._getAvailableAddonsFromPath (19:16:22.374):
Loading add-on from
C:\Users\raahz\AppData\Roaming\nvda\addons\placeMarkers
DEBUG - addonHandler._getAvailableAddonsFromPath (19:16:22.378):
Found add-on placeMarkers
DEBUG - addonHandler._getAvailableAddonsFromPath (19:16:22.378):
Loading add-on from
C:\Users\raahz\AppData\Roaming\nvda\addons\reportSymbols
DEBUG - addonHandler._getAvailableAddonsFromPath (19:16:22.384):
Found add-on reportSymbols
DEBUG - addonHandler._getAvailableAddonsFromPath (19:16:22.384):
Loading add-on from
C:\Users\raahz\AppData\Roaming\nvda\addons\reviewCursorCopier
DEBUG - addonHandler._getAvailableAddonsFromPath (19:16:22.388):
Found add-on reviewCursorCopier
DEBUG - addonHandler._getAvailableAddonsFromPath (19:16:22.388):
Loading add-on from C:\Users\raahz\AppData\Roaming\nvda\addons\Softvoice
DEBUG - addonHandler._getAvailableAddonsFromPath (19:16:22.394):
Found add-on Softvoice
DEBUG - addonHandler._getAvailableAddonsFromPath (19:16:22.394):
Loading add-on from
C:\Users\raahz\AppData\Roaming\nvda\addons\speakPasswords
DEBUG - addonHandler._getAvailableAddonsFromPath (19:16:22.398):
Found add-on speakPasswords
DEBUG - addonHandler._getAvailableAddonsFromPath (19:16:22.398):
Loading add-on from C:\Users\raahz\AppData\Roaming\nvda\addons\systrayList
DEBUG - addonHandler._getAvailableAddonsFromPath (19:16:22.404):
Found add-on systrayList
DEBUG - addonHandler._getAvailableAddonsFromPath (19:16:22.404):
Loading add-on from C:\Users\raahz\AppData\Roaming\nvda\addons\tipOfTheDay
DEBUG - addonHandler._getAvailableAddonsFromPath (19:16:22.408):
Found add-on tipOfTheDay
DEBUG - addonHandler._getAvailableAddonsFromPath (19:16:22.408):
Disabling add-on tipOfTheDay
DEBUG - addonHandler._getAvailableAddonsFromPath (19:16:22.408):
Loading add-on from
C:\Users\raahz\AppData\Roaming\nvda\addons\vocalizer-expressive2-voice-eng-Daniel-PremiumHigh
DEBUG - addonHandler._getAvailableAddonsFromPath (19:16:22.414):
Found add-on vocalizer-expressive2-voice-eng-Daniel-PremiumHigh
DEBUG - addonHandler._getAvailableAddonsFromPath (19:16:22.414):
Loading add-on from
C:\Users\raahz\AppData\Roaming\nvda\addons\vocalizer-expressive2-voice-eng-Kate-PremiumHigh
DEBUG - addonHandler._getAvailableAddonsFromPath (19:16:22.418):
Found add-on vocalizer-expressive2-voice-eng-Kate-PremiumHigh
DEBUG - addonHandler._getAvailableAddonsFromPath (19:16:22.418):
Loading add-on from
C:\Users\raahz\AppData\Roaming\nvda\addons\vocalizer-expressive2-voice-eng-Malcolm-PremiumHigh
DEBUG - addonHandler._getAvailableAddonsFromPath (19:16:22.424):
Found add-on vocalizer-expressive2-voice-eng-Malcolm-PremiumHigh
DEBUG - addonHandler._getAvailableAddonsFromPath (19:16:22.426):
Loading add-on from
C:\Users\raahz\AppData\Roaming\nvda\addons\vocalizer-expressive2-voice-eng-Oliver-PremiumHigh
DEBUG - addonHandler._getAvailableAddonsFromPath (19:16:22.430):
Found add-on vocalizer-expressive2-voice-eng-Oliver-PremiumHigh
DEBUG - addonHandler._getAvailableAddonsFromPath (19:16:22.430):
Loading add-on from
C:\Users\raahz\AppData\Roaming\nvda\addons\vocalizer-expressive2-voice-eng-Serena-PremiumHigh
DEBUG - addonHandler._getAvailableAddonsFromPath (19:16:22.434):
Found add-on vocalizer-expressive2-voice-eng-Serena-PremiumHigh
DEBUG - addonHandler._getAvailableAddonsFromPath (19:16:22.436):
Loading add-on from
C:\Users\raahz\AppData\Roaming\nvda\addons\vocalizer-expressive2-voice-enu-Ava-PremiumHigh
DEBUG - addonHandler._getAvailableAddonsFromPath (19:16:22.440):
Found add-on vocalizer-expressive2-voice-enu-Ava-PremiumHigh
DEBUG - addonHandler._getAvailableAddonsFromPath (19:16:22.440):
Loading add-on from
C:\Users\raahz\AppData\Roaming\nvda\addons\vocalizer-expressive2-voice-enu-Nathan-PremiumHigh
DEBUG - addonHandler._getAvailableAddonsFromPath (19:16:22.444):
Found add-on vocalizer-expressive2-voice-enu-Nathan-PremiumHigh
DEBUG - addonHandler._getAvailableAddonsFromPath (19:16:22.444):
Loading add-on from
C:\Users\raahz\AppData\Roaming\nvda\addons\vocalizer-expressive2-voice-enu-Samantha-PremiumHigh
DEBUG - addonHandler._getAvailableAddonsFromPath (19:16:22.450):
Found add-on vocalizer-expressive2-voice-enu-Samantha-PremiumHigh
DEBUG - addonHandler._getAvailableAddonsFromPath (19:16:22.450):
Loading add-on from
C:\Users\raahz\AppData\Roaming\nvda\addons\vocalizer-expressive2-voice-enu-Susan-PremiumHigh
DEBUG - addonHandler._getAvailableAddonsFromPath (19:16:22.454):
Found add-on vocalizer-expressive2-voice-enu-Susan-PremiumHigh
DEBUG - addonHandler._getAvailableAddonsFromPath (19:16:22.454):
Loading add-on from
C:\Users\raahz\AppData\Roaming\nvda\addons\vocalizer-expressive2-voice-enu-Tom-PremiumHigh
DEBUG - addonHandler._getAvailableAddonsFromPath (19:16:22.460):
Found add-on vocalizer-expressive2-voice-enu-Tom-PremiumHigh
DEBUG - addonHandler._getAvailableAddonsFromPath (19:16:22.460):
Loading add-on from
C:\Users\raahz\AppData\Roaming\nvda\addons\vocalizer-expressive2-voice-enu-Zoe-PremiumHigh
DEBUG - addonHandler._getAvailableAddonsFromPath (19:16:22.464):
Found add-on vocalizer-expressive2-voice-enu-Zoe-PremiumHigh
DEBUG - addonHandler._getAvailableAddonsFromPath (19:16:22.466):
Loading add-on from
C:\Users\raahz\AppData\Roaming\nvda\addons\vocalizer_expressive2_driver
DEBUG - addonHandler._getAvailableAddonsFromPath (19:16:22.470):
Found add-on vocalizer_expressive2_driver
DEBUG - addonHandler._getAvailableAddonsFromPath (19:16:22.470):
Loading add-on from C:\Users\raahz\AppData\Roaming\nvda\addons\Weather
Plus
DEBUG - addonHandler._getAvailableAddonsFromPath (19:16:22.470):
Found add-on Weather Plus
DEBUG - addonHandler._getAvailableAddonsFromPath (19:16:22.470):
Loading add-on from C:\Users\raahz\AppData\Roaming\nvda\addons\wintenApps
DEBUG - addonHandler._getAvailableAddonsFromPath (19:16:22.476):
Found add-on wintenApps
DEBUG - core.main (19:16:22.717):
Initializing appModule Handler
DEBUG - addonHandler.Addon.addToPackagePath (19:16:22.717):
Addon bitChe added to appModules package path
DEBUG - addonHandler.Addon.addToPackagePath (19:16:22.717):
Addon mp3DirectCut added to appModules package path
DEBUG - addonHandler.Addon.addToPackagePath (19:16:22.719):
Addon wintenApps added to appModules package path
DEBUG - core.main (19:16:22.719):
Initializing NVDAHelper
DEBUG - core.main (19:16:22.749):
Speech Dictionary processing
DEBUG - speechDictHandler.SpeechDict.load (19:16:22.749):
Loading speech dictionary
'C:\Users\raahz\AppData\Roaming\nvda\speechDicts\default.dic'...
DEBUG - speechDictHandler.SpeechDict.load (19:16:22.759):
35 loaded records.
DEBUG - speechDictHandler.SpeechDict.load (19:16:22.759):
Loading speech dictionary 'builtin.dic'...
DEBUG - speechDictHandler.SpeechDict.load (19:16:22.766):
3 loaded records.
DEBUG - core.main (19:16:22.767):
Initializing speech
DEBUG - addonHandler.Addon.addToPackagePath (19:16:22.767):
Addon Eloquence added to synthDrivers package path
DEBUG - addonHandler.Addon.addToPackagePath (19:16:22.767):
Addon Softvoice added to synthDrivers package path
DEBUG - addonHandler.Addon.addToPackagePath (19:16:22.769):
Addon vocalizer_expressive2_driver added to synthDrivers package path
DEBUG - external:synthDrivers.eloquence.SynthDriver.__init__
(19:16:22.920):
Using Eloquence version 6.1.0.0
DEBUG - speechDictHandler.SpeechDict.load (19:16:22.924):
Loading speech dictionary
'C:\Users\raahz\AppData\Roaming\nvda\speechDicts\eloquence-American
English.dic'...
DEBUG - speechDictHandler.SpeechDict.load (19:16:22.924):
file 'C:\Users\raahz\AppData\Roaming\nvda\speechDicts\eloquence-American
English.dic' not found.
INFO - synthDriverHandler.setSynth (19:16:22.926):
Loaded synthDriver eloquence
INFO - core.main (19:16:22.926):
Using wx version 3.0.2.0 msw (classic)
DEBUG - core.main (19:16:22.927):
Initializing braille input
INFO - brailleInput.initialize (19:16:22.927):
Braille input initialized
DEBUG - core.main (19:16:22.927):
Initializing braille
INFO - braille.initialize (19:16:22.928):
Using liblouis version 3.2.0
INFO - braille.BrailleHandler.setDisplayByName (19:16:22.930):
Loaded braille display driver noBraille, current display has 0 cells.
DEBUG - core.main (19:16:22.930):
Initializing displayModel
DEBUG - core.main (19:16:22.930):
Initializing GUI
DEBUG - core.main (19:16:22.976):
initializing Java Access Bridge support
WARNING - core.main (19:16:22.976):
Java Access Bridge not available
DEBUG - core.main (19:16:22.977):
Initializing winConsole support
DEBUG - core.main (19:16:22.977):
Initializing UIA support
INFO - _UIAHandler.UIAHandler.MTAThreadFunc (19:16:22.980):
UIAutomation: IUIAutomation3
DEBUG - core.main (19:16:23.246):
Initializing IAccessible support
DEBUG - core.main (19:16:23.246):
Initializing input core
DEBUGWARNING - inputCore.InputManager.loadLocaleGestureMap (19:16:23.246):
No locale gesture map for language en
DEBUGWARNING - inputCore.InputManager.loadUserGestureMap (19:16:23.246):
No user gesture map
DEBUG - core.main (19:16:23.246):
Initializing keyboard handler
DEBUG - core.main (19:16:23.247):
initializing mouse handler
DEBUG - core.main (19:16:23.279):
Initializing touchHandler
DEBUGWARNING - touchHandler.initialize (19:16:23.279):
No touch devices found
DEBUG - core.main (19:16:23.279):
Initializing global plugin handler
DEBUG - addonHandler.Addon.addToPackagePath (19:16:23.279):
Addon clipContentsDesigner added to globalPlugins package path
DEBUG - addonHandler.Addon.addToPackagePath (19:16:23.279):
Addon dayOfTheWeek added to globalPlugins package path
DEBUG - addonHandler.Addon.addToPackagePath (19:16:23.279):
Addon easyTableNavigator added to globalPlugins package path
DEBUG - addonHandler.Addon.addToPackagePath (19:16:23.280):
Addon instantTranslate added to globalPlugins package path
DEBUG - addonHandler.Addon.addToPackagePath (19:16:23.280):
Addon mp3DirectCut added to globalPlugins package path
DEBUG - addonHandler.Addon.addToPackagePath (19:16:23.280):
Addon placeMarkers added to globalPlugins package path
DEBUG - addonHandler.Addon.addToPackagePath (19:16:23.280):
Addon reportSymbols added to globalPlugins package path
DEBUG - addonHandler.Addon.addToPackagePath (19:16:23.280):
Addon reviewCursorCopier added to globalPlugins package path
DEBUG - addonHandler.Addon.addToPackagePath (19:16:23.282):
Addon speakPasswords added to globalPlugins package path
DEBUG - addonHandler.Addon.addToPackagePath (19:16:23.282):
Addon systrayList added to globalPlugins package path
DEBUG - addonHandler.Addon.addToPackagePath (19:16:23.282):
Addon vocalizer_expressive2_driver added to globalPlugins package path
DEBUG - addonHandler.Addon.addToPackagePath (19:16:23.282):
Addon Weather Plus added to globalPlugins package path
DEBUG - addonHandler.Addon.addToPackagePath (19:16:23.282):
Addon wintenApps added to globalPlugins package path
DEBUGWARNING - Python warning (19:16:23.342):
C:\Users\raahz\AppData\Roaming\nvda\addons\Weather
Plus\globalPlugins\weather plus\__init__.py:67: SyntaxWarning: name
'samplesvolumes_dic' is assigned to before global declaration
DEBUGWARNING - Python warning (19:16:23.342):
C:\Users\raahz\AppData\Roaming\nvda\addons\Weather
Plus\globalPlugins\weather plus\__init__.py:228: SyntaxWarning: name
'volume' is assigned to before global declaration
DEBUGWARNING - Python warning (19:16:23.342):
C:\Users\raahz\AppData\Roaming\nvda\addons\Weather
Plus\globalPlugins\weather plus\__init__.py:228: SyntaxWarning: name
'samplesvolumes_dic' is assigned to before global declaration
DEBUGWARNING - Python warning (19:16:23.342):
C:\Users\raahz\AppData\Roaming\nvda\addons\Weather
Plus\globalPlugins\weather plus\__init__.py:380: SyntaxWarning: name
'_addonBaseUrl' is assigned to before global declaration
DEBUGWARNING - Python warning (19:16:23.344):
C:\Users\raahz\AppData\Roaming\nvda\addons\Weather
Plus\globalPlugins\weather plus\__init__.py:851: SyntaxWarning: name
'curSample' is assigned to before global declaration
DEBUGWARNING - Python warning (19:16:23.344):
C:\Users\raahz\AppData\Roaming\nvda\addons\Weather
Plus\globalPlugins\weather plus\__init__.py:870: SyntaxWarning: name
'handle' is assigned to before global declaration
DEBUGWARNING - Python warning (19:16:23.344):
C:\Users\raahz\AppData\Roaming\nvda\addons\Weather
Plus\globalPlugins\weather plus\__init__.py:968: SyntaxWarning: name
'handle' is assigned to before global declaration
DEBUGWARNING - Python warning (19:16:23.344):
C:\Users\raahz\AppData\Roaming\nvda\addons\Weather
Plus\globalPlugins\weather plus\__init__.py:968: SyntaxWarning: name
'curSample' is assigned to before global declaration
DEBUGWARNING - Python warning (19:16:23.344):
C:\Users\raahz\AppData\Roaming\nvda\addons\Weather
Plus\globalPlugins\weather plus\__init__.py:968: SyntaxWarning: name
'volume' is assigned to before global declaration
DEBUGWARNING - Python warning (19:16:23.344):
C:\Users\raahz\AppData\Roaming\nvda\addons\Weather
Plus\globalPlugins\weather plus\__init__.py:1012: SyntaxWarning: name
'handle' is assigned to before global declaration
DEBUGWARNING - Python warning (19:16:23.344):
C:\Users\raahz\AppData\Roaming\nvda\addons\Weather
Plus\globalPlugins\weather plus\__init__.py:1012: SyntaxWarning: name
'curSample' is assigned to before global declaration
DEBUGWARNING - Python warning (19:16:23.344):
C:\Users\raahz\AppData\Roaming\nvda\addons\Weather
Plus\globalPlugins\weather plus\__init__.py:1012: SyntaxWarning: name
'volume' is assigned to before global declaration
DEBUGWARNING - Python warning (19:16:23.345):
C:\Users\raahz\AppData\Roaming\nvda\addons\Weather
Plus\globalPlugins\weather plus\__init__.py:2310: SyntaxWarning: name
'samplesvolumes_dic' is used prior to global declaration
DEBUGWARNING - Python warning (19:16:23.345):
C:\Users\raahz\AppData\Roaming\nvda\addons\Weather
Plus\globalPlugins\weather plus\__init__.py:2317: SyntaxWarning: name
'volume' is assigned to before global declaration
DEBUGWARNING - Python warning (19:16:23.345):
C:\Users\raahz\AppData\Roaming\nvda\addons\Weather
Plus\globalPlugins\weather plus\__init__.py:2542: SyntaxWarning: name
'_addonBaseUrl' is assigned to before global declaration
DEBUG -
external:synthDrivers.vocalizer_expressive2._vocalizer.preInitialize
(19:16:24.802):
installed voice add-ons:
[u'vocalizer-expressive2-voice-eng-Daniel-PremiumHigh',
u'vocalizer-expressive2-voice-eng-Kate-PremiumHigh',
u'vocalizer-expressive2-voice-eng-Malcolm-PremiumHigh',
u'vocalizer-expressive2-voice-eng-Oliver-PremiumHigh',
u'vocalizer-expressive2-voice-eng-Serena-PremiumHigh',
u'vocalizer-expressive2-voice-enu-Ava-PremiumHigh',
u'vocalizer-expressive2-voice-enu-Nathan-PremiumHigh',
u'vocalizer-expressive2-voice-enu-Samantha-PremiumHigh',
u'vocalizer-expressive2-voice-enu-Susan-PremiumHigh',
u'vocalizer-expressive2-voice-enu-Tom-PremiumHigh',
u'vocalizer-expressive2-voice-enu-Zoe-PremiumHigh']
DEBUG - core.main (19:16:25.250):
Initializing core pump
DEBUG - core.main (19:16:25.252):
Initializing watchdog
DEBUG - core.main (19:16:25.253):
initializing updateCheck
INFO - core.main (19:16:25.253):
NVDA initialized
DEBUG - core.main (19:16:25.253):
entering wx application main loop
IO - speech.speak (19:16:25.312):
Speaking [u'Notice! dialog An upgrade is available for Weather
Plus.\r\nClick on the Check for upgrades menu to download it.']
IO - speech.speak (19:16:25.336):
Speaking [u'OK button']
IO - inputCore.InputManager.executeGesture (19:16:26.977):
Input: kb(laptop):enter
DEBUGWARNING - NVDAObjects.IAccessible.IAccessible._get_IAccessibleRole
(19:16:26.996):
accRole failed: (-2147024809, 'The parameter is incorrect.', (None,
None, None, 0, None))
IO - speech.speak (19:16:27.052):
Speaking [u'English (United States) - US']
IO - speech.speak (19:16:27.128):
Speaking [u'Downloads window']
IO - speech.speak (19:16:27.138):
Speaking [u'Items View list']
IO - speech.speak (19:16:27.145):
Speaking [u'weather_plus4.6(1).nvda-addon 2 of 86']
IO - inputCore.InputManager.executeGesture (19:16:35.911):
Input: kb(laptop):NVDA+n
IO - speech.speak (19:16:35.996):
Speaking [u'NVDA menu']
IO - inputCore.InputManager.executeGesture (19:16:36.888):
Input: kb(laptop):downArrow
IO - speech.speak (19:16:36.915):
Speaking [u'Preferences subMenu p']
IO - inputCore.InputManager.executeGesture (19:16:37.921):
Input: kb(laptop):downArrow
IO - speech.speak (19:16:37.936):
Speaking [u'Tools subMenu t']
IO - inputCore.InputManager.executeGesture (19:16:39.007):
Input: kb(laptop):enter
IO - speech.speak (19:16:39.036):
Speaking [u'View log v 1 of 7']
IO - inputCore.InputManager.executeGesture (19:16:39.654):
Input: kb(laptop):downArrow
IO - speech.speak (19:16:39.680):
Speaking [u'Speech viewer s 2 of 7']
IO - inputCore.InputManager.executeGesture (19:16:40.430):
Input: kb(laptop):upArrow
IO - speech.speak (19:16:40.464):
Speaking [u'View log v 1 of 7']
IO - inputCore.InputManager.executeGesture (19:16:40.979):
Input: kb(laptop):enter


On 11/3/17, Adriano Barbieri via Groups.Io
<adrianobarb=yahoo.it@groups.io> wrote:
Hi to every one,
Changes in this version:
* Improved the reading of current local time; search keys are more
accurate.

Weather Plus can update alone, however, it is possible to download
manually from the following links:
http://www.nvda.it/files/plugin/weather_plus4.6.nvda-addon
or from page:
http://www.nvda.it/weather-plus/
or from page:
https://addons.nvda-project.org/addons/weatherPlus.en.html

Cheers
Adriano