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Re: firefox is now chrome
Mary Otten <motten53@...>
Yes, I mean exactly what you described, Jean. And it sounds like there might be one activated with control shift l.
Mary
On Nov 13, 2017, at 2:46 PM, Gene < gsasner@...> wrote:
By reader add on, do you mean the feature that
removes extraneous material such as blocs of links from articles? There is
nothing directly in Chrome that does that. I tried an add on that does it
awhile ago, but there was an accessibility problem, I don't remember what it was
now and I couldn't use it. others may know of a way to use it or another
add on.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2017 3:47 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] firefox is now chrome
So does chrome have a reader at on, rather like what you get with
Safari either on a Mac or on the phone? The android version of chrome doesn’t
have that, and it’s a huge disadvantage in my opinion. I’m guessing that the
desktop version either has it built in or at least has an ad
on. Mary Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 13, 2017, at 1:03
PM, Shaun Everiss < sm.everiss@...> wrote: >
> Hi. > > Ok guys decided to cut my losses and switched to
chrome. > > What an experience change. > > Its true I
need to do a bit more configging but just about every file just saves
now. > > And access wize there are accessibility addons. >
> For me noscript doesn't come but the rest. > > First https
everywhere, privacy badger and ublock origin exist thats good. > >
I use download notifier for sounds, and google sound effects tweaked so it
doesn't make sounds for everything I do key typing scroling down pages,
etc. > > However its better than the crappy addon I have on
firefox. > > Its got accessibility features and its fully
configurable, maybe ms should take a leaf out of google's book for their stuff
because headings for everything. > > The only issues I have is when
removing addon extentions I have to hit enter twice as there is a lot of unknown
and the same with adding extentions tab once and hit enter. > > I
also don't care for the top down approach of the google app store. >
> However I am fully setup and while it could be better, I do believe
that firefox as it stands is history with me. > > Noscript, well
its not really important right now, everything works as needed. > >
I do feel sad leaving firefox though. > > > >
>> On 14/11/2017 8:51 a.m., Gene wrote: >> Why do some people
care so much about browser sounds? When a page has finished opening,
you'll know it because the screen-reader automatically starts to read it.
When a page doesn't load for some reason, a lot of the time there is an error
message. When you download a file, you can easily check the estimated time
remaining for the download. I understand the desire to hear a sound when a
download finishes because that will tell you, without you having to check or
without perhaps getting busy with something else and forgetting to check in a
timely manner. But how much of the concern with sounds is just
habit? Maybe people would be surprised if they didn't use browser sounds
for three days as a trial, how quickly almost all of the sounds fade into
insignificance. Even the download finished sound may decrease
significantly in importance. >> Gene >> ----- Original Message
----- >> >> >> From: Shaun Everiss >>
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2017 1:28 PM >> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io>> Subject:
[nvda] firefox sort of fixed >> >> >>
Hi. >> >> Ok, got an addon called download sound this works
for downloads, sadly I >> don't get when sites open like navigation
sounds, but if anything else >> the download sound is the important
event sound is a bit loud though. >> >> >>
>> > > > >
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Re: NVDA in the workforce and in public institutions
Well, that was basically my question. If there's something we can do to become a more attractive option to Canadian government departments, then I'd be happy to find out what the requirements may be. If it's a flat-out no because we are open source, well at least a link clarifying that position would be useful for us to know as well.
Kind regards
Quentin.
On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 7:25 AM, erik burggraaf <erik@...> wrote: Well this is interesting. First it was insurance. Now it's not insurance, it's procurement. Top secret procurement which isn't particularly allowed in Canada except for possibly weapons research and development or something like that. Procurement is public record. So... What department did you say she worked in?
Quenton, I'm sure the NVAccess group has the resources and knowhow to become a contractor for the Canadian Government. It's not usually that hard, though there may be substantial red tape. I don't believe you would have to present any kind of insurance documentation to sell them software, though you would probably have to wave liability if you were coming in to do training or something. Insurance is for contractors hired to build new ficilities, install new plumming, electrical, or fire, maintain government vehicals and so on.
Best,
Erik
On November 13, 2017 2:23:01 PM "Mike and Jenna" < schwaltze@...> wrote:
High,
There is no open source int their catalog what so ever. 7zip is rolled in house by their IT department apart from that their policy is no open source. I wish I could post what they policy is but I had to sign an NDA before I could even work on my wife accessibility stuff.
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto: nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Antony Stone
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2017 1:52 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA in the workforce and in public institutions
I've lost track of what the insurance comment was in this thread.
Please can someone point me at some official documentation to explain what the vendors have to comply with to get government contracts?
I'd be interested to know how the Canadian government manages to use any open source software if they have rules in place which would be a problem for NVDA specifically.
Antony.
On Monday 13 November 2017 at 18:42:43, Mike and Jenna wrote:
Hi,
Its more as being registered as a business and having a contract with
the federal government. You have to become a vender.
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Quentin Christensen Sent: Monday, November 13, 2017 2:37 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA in the workforce and in public institutions
Just on the insurance thing in Canada - can anyone point me to a
reference about what it is and what's involved please?
Kind regards
Quentin.
On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 9:02 AM, Kevin Cussick via Groups.Io
<the.big.white.shepherd=googlemail.com@groups.io
<mailto:the.big.white.shepherd=googlemail.com@groups.io> > wrote:
nope not seeing this on any of my computers.
On 11/11/2017 05:15, Tyler Wood wrote:
Hi,
I wouldn’t either, however…
The difference in jaws and NVDA moving through explorer windows is so
drastically light and day different on the same computer. Despite what
the processor is doing jaws simply handles it whereas NVDA, by
contrast, is frustratingly slow. It’s especially telling when you use
them side by side.
*From: *Brian Vogel <mailto:britechguy@...
<mailto:britechguy@...> > *Sent: *November 10, 2017 10:19 PM
*To: *nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > *Subject: *Re:
[nvda] NVDA in the workforce and in public institutions
On Fri, Nov 10, 2017 at 05:57 pm, Tyler Wood wrote:
I’m talking intel atom, ulv celleron, Pentium.
I would not expect screen readers to be particularly "sprightly" on
any of these processors if what they're running on top of is in any
way processing intensive.
--
GIT/E d- s+:--(-) a+ C++++$(---) UL++++$ P+(---)>++ L+++(++++)$ !E W(-) N(-) o? w--(---) O !M V+++(--) !PS !PE Y+ PGP+> t- !tv@ b+++ DI++ D--- e+++(*) h++ 5? !X- !R K--? G-
Please reply to the list;
please *don't* CC me.
-- Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager
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Re: Spellchecker Microsoft office word 2017
Ok Steve,
Just for you, try pressing alt+F7 to jump between spelling errors and open the context menu with alternate suggestions. You might like that idea since, being a Word command, you can do it in Jaws or Window-Eyes as well as NVDA :-P
If you don't want the menu open, press alt to close it again.
Regards
Quentin.
On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 4:41 AM, Rod Hutton <rod_hutton@...> wrote:
Thanks for the tip, Quentin,
Rod
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io]
On Behalf Of Quentin Christensen
Sent: November 12, 2017 10:12 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Spellchecker Microsoft office word 2017
You can also jump to next spelling error using NVDA by:
- Pressing NVDA+spacebar to go into Browse mode.
- Press w to move to the next spelling error or shift+w to move to the previous spelling error.
Note that you'll need to go back to focus mode with NVDA+spacebar to edit text again.
On Sat, Nov 11, 2017 at 9:04 AM, Rod Hutton <rod_hutton@...> wrote:
Hi,
By default, MS word will highlight spelling errors automatically as you move through a document, making it unnecessary to activate
the spell checker to proof a document.
I am told that sighted people see these misspelled words as underlined words, and I suppose this is what NVDA is detecting such
that it can identify them for us.
Therefore, as I see it, you can move to the misspelled word in context, press the Applications key, and move through the pull-down
menu and review the replacement possibilities, and one of the elements in the pull-down is the highlighted misspelled word itself for your convenience.
You can then make your choice and press Enter.
I hope this helps,
Rod
From:
nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io]
On Behalf Of Jo Collingwood
Sent: November 9, 2017 2:58 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Spellchecker Microsoft office word 2017
Can anyone tell me how to make the wrongly spelt word in spellchecker be announced before moving to suggestions please? On office 10 NVDA read the word and sentence so you knew
which word was highlighted in the dialogue box. I’ve tried read current line, say word , spell word but nothing reads so my student doesn’t know which word he is correcting at the time. The layout is different too as are the shortcuts for change and ignore
--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager
-- Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager
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You get one to one connections unlimited free. One to many (more than one connection) Up to 50 requires a paid account for longer than 40 minute calls. Thanks, Sam
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of JM Casey
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2017 3:30 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Zoom and NVDA Well, nothing’s stopping you from using the programme for personal (non-business) use as far as I know. You can still create meetings and so on with a free account. Then someone who has the URL joins you, etc. Well if its meant for business I'm not interested. I wish Viber was accessible with NVDA. On 11/13/2017 4:30 PM, Governor staten wrote: It is more for business use. However, they give you a free account that allows you to do some things. So, you could use it between friends and family.
On 11/13/2017 4:26 PM, Lino Morales wrote: What's the URL for Zoom? I've been wanting off the Skype train for a while. If anyone knows email me at: lino.jr@... Thanks. On 11/12/2017 10:16 PM, Derek Lane wrote: I've mentioned this on this list before. I've also spoken to zoom, and they told me they're talking to anything that will listen though msaa. I believe this is so, because not only does zoom notifications read with JAWS, but they are also read in narrator under windows 10. The rest of the client works reasonably well with it as well. So it sounds like a tiny piece of something is missing. If it gets fixed, maybe this would inadvertently improve access to other apps that we may not be aware of. On 11/12/2017 10:02 PM, Quentin Christensen wrote: Hi, In general, I would say if something doesn't work in Next, it is often worth double checking the latest stable build to make sure it's not a regression. In terms of Zoom, I don't think we've done any work on this recently so I suspect it will be the same between versions. If you are able to do that Governor Staten, that will ensure you are kept up to date with work done on this issue. On Sat, Nov 11, 2017 at 8:39 AM, Governor staten <govsta@...> wrote: Just to provide more info, I"m using the latest NVDA snapshot in the Next branch. There might be a version where everything works as expected with Zoom. However, I don't know what that version of NVDA would be.
On 11/10/2017 4:34 PM, JM Casey wrote: Yeah, I just started using this myself, and it does work really well with JAWS 18. I haven’t yet tried it with nVDA, but that’s on the horizon. Now I know what to expect. It’s a hell of a lot better than skype, anyway. *grins* Hello, everyone. I wrote about this earlier. I have learned more. Zoom is perfectly accessible with JAWS 16. However, with NVDA, it is not completely so. For example, when you press alt+a to mute or un-mute audio, JAWS announces the fact that audio is either muted or un-muted, but, NVDA says nothing. In edit fields, JAWS can easily review them by using arrow keys, it announces what characters you arrow to or over. With NVDA, review of text in edit fields is not easy to do. It does not announce what character you are on when you arrow to or over characters. These are issues that I believe should be seriously looked into and fixed. This is a program used in work environments, and should be used in more places due to accessibility of the product. Right now, I have to use JAWS 16 to get full access. This should not be so. I hope this one can be rectified soon. p.s. I think that the issues, or some of them, might be related to ARIA. If I can help in any way to get this working, I will. Let me know how I can help.
-- Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager
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Re: firefox is now chrome
By reader add on, do you mean the feature that
removes extraneous material such as blocs of links from articles? There is
nothing directly in Chrome that does that. I tried an add on that does it
awhile ago, but there was an accessibility problem, I don't remember what it was
now and I couldn't use it. others may know of a way to use it or another
add on.
Gene
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2017 3:47 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] firefox is now chrome
So does chrome have a reader at on, rather like what you get with
Safari either on a Mac or on the phone? The android version of chrome doesn’t
have that, and it’s a huge disadvantage in my opinion. I’m guessing that the
desktop version either has it built in or at least has an ad
on. Mary Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 13, 2017, at 1:03
PM, Shaun Everiss < sm.everiss@...> wrote: >
> Hi. > > Ok guys decided to cut my losses and switched to
chrome. > > What an experience change. > > Its true I
need to do a bit more configging but just about every file just saves
now. > > And access wize there are accessibility addons. >
> For me noscript doesn't come but the rest. > > First https
everywhere, privacy badger and ublock origin exist thats good. > >
I use download notifier for sounds, and google sound effects tweaked so it
doesn't make sounds for everything I do key typing scroling down pages,
etc. > > However its better than the crappy addon I have on
firefox. > > Its got accessibility features and its fully
configurable, maybe ms should take a leaf out of google's book for their stuff
because headings for everything. > > The only issues I have is when
removing addon extentions I have to hit enter twice as there is a lot of unknown
and the same with adding extentions tab once and hit enter. > > I
also don't care for the top down approach of the google app store. >
> However I am fully setup and while it could be better, I do believe
that firefox as it stands is history with me. > > Noscript, well
its not really important right now, everything works as needed. > >
I do feel sad leaving firefox though. > > > >
>> On 14/11/2017 8:51 a.m., Gene wrote: >> Why do some people
care so much about browser sounds? When a page has finished opening,
you'll know it because the screen-reader automatically starts to read it.
When a page doesn't load for some reason, a lot of the time there is an error
message. When you download a file, you can easily check the estimated time
remaining for the download. I understand the desire to hear a sound when a
download finishes because that will tell you, without you having to check or
without perhaps getting busy with something else and forgetting to check in a
timely manner. But how much of the concern with sounds is just
habit? Maybe people would be surprised if they didn't use browser sounds
for three days as a trial, how quickly almost all of the sounds fade into
insignificance. Even the download finished sound may decrease
significantly in importance. >> Gene >> ----- Original Message
----- >> >> >> From: Shaun Everiss >>
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2017 1:28 PM >> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io>> Subject:
[nvda] firefox sort of fixed >> >> >>
Hi. >> >> Ok, got an addon called download sound this works
for downloads, sadly I >> don't get when sites open like navigation
sounds, but if anything else >> the download sound is the important
event sound is a bit loud though. >> >> >>
>> > > > >
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Lino Morales <linomorales001@...>
Yes it is. Wait till V 58 or later to work with NVDA or if you want a real adventure download the nightly builds of V 59 and report to NV Access and see how well it works.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
On 11/13/2017 5:34 PM, Don H wrote: So is the version 57 of firefox now available?
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So is the version 57 of firefox now available?
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Re: For our friends from Iran on this list
Oh no! I hope everyone's alright. If there had been an earth quake. I haven't listened to the news last night.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Mallard
Sent: November-13-17 6:39 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] For our friends from Iran on this list
Hello all,
I know there are some friends from Iran on this list.
I hope you are all well, after the terrible earthquake that devastated part of your country.
I don't know whether there also friends from Iraq here.
If tehre are, my thoughts and prayers go out to you as well.
I know how it feels, Here in Italy we've recently had quite a few earthquakes, some with many casualties.
Blessings to you.
Ollie
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JM Casey <crystallogic@...>
Well, nothing’s stopping you from using the programme for personal (non-business) use as far as I know. You can still create meetings and so on with a free account. Then someone who has the URL joins you, etc.
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Lino Morales
Sent: November 13, 2017 4:33 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Zoom and NVDA Well if its meant for business I'm not interested. I wish Viber was accessible with NVDA. On 11/13/2017 4:30 PM, Governor staten wrote: It is more for business use. However, they give you a free account that allows you to do some things. So, you could use it between friends and family.
On 11/13/2017 4:26 PM, Lino Morales wrote: What's the URL for Zoom? I've been wanting off the Skype train for a while. If anyone knows email me at: lino.jr@... Thanks. On 11/12/2017 10:16 PM, Derek Lane wrote: I've mentioned this on this list before. I've also spoken to zoom, and they told me they're talking to anything that will listen though msaa. I believe this is so, because not only does zoom notifications read with JAWS, but they are also read in narrator under windows 10. The rest of the client works reasonably well with it as well. So it sounds like a tiny piece of something is missing. If it gets fixed, maybe this would inadvertently improve access to other apps that we may not be aware of. On 11/12/2017 10:02 PM, Quentin Christensen wrote: Hi, In general, I would say if something doesn't work in Next, it is often worth double checking the latest stable build to make sure it's not a regression. In terms of Zoom, I don't think we've done any work on this recently so I suspect it will be the same between versions. If you are able to do that Governor Staten, that will ensure you are kept up to date with work done on this issue. On Sat, Nov 11, 2017 at 8:39 AM, Governor staten <govsta@...> wrote: Just to provide more info, I"m using the latest NVDA snapshot in the Next branch. There might be a version where everything works as expected with Zoom. However, I don't know what that version of NVDA would be.
On 11/10/2017 4:34 PM, JM Casey wrote: Yeah, I just started using this myself, and it does work really well with JAWS 18. I haven’t yet tried it with nVDA, but that’s on the horizon. Now I know what to expect. It’s a hell of a lot better than skype, anyway. *grins* Hello, everyone. I wrote about this earlier. I have learned more. Zoom is perfectly accessible with JAWS 16. However, with NVDA, it is not completely so. For example, when you press alt+a to mute or un-mute audio, JAWS announces the fact that audio is either muted or un-muted, but, NVDA says nothing. In edit fields, JAWS can easily review them by using arrow keys, it announces what characters you arrow to or over. With NVDA, review of text in edit fields is not easy to do. It does not announce what character you are on when you arrow to or over characters. These are issues that I believe should be seriously looked into and fixed. This is a program used in work environments, and should be used in more places due to accessibility of the product. Right now, I have to use JAWS 16 to get full access. This should not be so. I hope this one can be rectified soon. p.s. I think that the issues, or some of them, might be related to ARIA. If I can help in any way to get this working, I will. Let me know how I can help.
-- Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager
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Re: firefox sort of fixed
By the way:
1 - Do not forget that some of us do not have english as first language;
2 - Before critizing ortographic errors, check if you are writing correctly the name of the person you want to correct...
3 - Next time, do it in private mode and not in the list!
Rui Fontes
-----Mensagem Original-----
De: Lino Morales
Data: 13 de novembro de 2017 21:56
Para: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Assunto: Re: [nvda] firefox sort of fixed
BTW Sean its browser not brouser. Take care.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
On 11/13/2017 3:07 PM, Shaun Everiss wrote: You are right I don't really need brouser sounds.
However the fact I can't navigate the options of the addons manager is a bit of a problem.
Download sound is fine but I just find the addon's download sound a bit to loud and can't change that.
I have pulled back to 56.02 for now as I just don't have the time to bother with web brousers just now.
Then again 57 seemed to load faster.
Noscript is the big show stopper, I like controling sites I load.
If its in google chrome I may try it and see.
On 14/11/2017 8:51 a.m., Gene wrote:
Why do some people care so much about browser sounds? When a page has finished opening, you'll know it because the screen-reader automatically starts to read it. When a page doesn't load for some reason, a lot of the time there is an error message. When you download a file, you can easily check the estimated time remaining for the download. I understand the desire to hear a sound when a download finishes because that will tell you, without you having to check or without perhaps getting busy with something else and forgetting to check in a timely manner. But how much of the concern with sounds is just habit? Maybe people would be surprised if they didn't use browser sounds for three days as a trial, how quickly almost all of the sounds fade into insignificance. Even the download finished sound may decrease significantly in importance.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Shaun Everiss
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2017 1:28 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] firefox sort of fixed
Hi.
Ok, got an addon called download sound this works for downloads, sadly I
don't get when sites open like navigation sounds, but if anything else
the download sound is the important event sound is a bit loud though.
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Re: NVDA speaking even when it’s not loaded when there’s a problem with shut down
Lino Morales <linomorales001@...>
That's odd cause I use IMAP for both my ISP email and Gmail and I do get notified.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
On 11/13/2017 4:14 PM, Shaun Everiss wrote: True but imap on tbird doesn't give me notifications of mail completing.
And it never used to screw at all which is my issue.
Its fine now for example, but as soon as something weird goes with google things go down again.
The other reason I can't be bothered as for now I have only 1 device so I don't give a damn.
Now if I get a smart phone which may happen in the next 10 years or so, then I will want a chain if I need it so it will be like that I guess.
On 14/11/2017 9:06 a.m., Tyler Wood wrote:
Wo.
You’re going nuts with switching from imap to pop, or something. Probably why everything is going screwy on you to begin with lol.
I just use windows 10 mail, imap only. It simply works with gmail. No screwing around with silly settings – I thought pop was back in 2000 and didn’t even know anyone still used it.
From: Shaun Everiss
Sent: November 13, 2017 12:46 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA speaking even when it’s not loaded when there’s a problem with shut down
Yeah I have a similar issue with mail in general.
Imap and pop fail, every so often, the local google node flakes and goes
offline, I switch to another for a bit then it pops back.
Then imap and pop fail.
Imap just comes back, but I have to switch to imap, wait 30 mins and
switch the pop devices back to pop, I have some spacifficly linked
devices I don't want active and sharing all the time namely my admin box
though if it happens again, I'm going to have to figure out why
notifications don't work in thunderbird with imap active and stick with it.
I always know when it will do it because the local google web site goes
offline 3 or 4 days later the servers die and nothing comes through till
I fiddle about.
So as much as google thinks its the big cloud, I suspect overloading
however small is going on.
On 13/11/2017 10:03 p.m., Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
Incidentally yesterday when I was answering in this list, emails were
arriving out of order, hence the multiple messages on the same
subject. I've been caught out this way before. I'm no closer to
finding out where emails from this list spend often almost a day
before being delivered while others get here straight away.
Brian
bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian's Mail list account via
Groups.Io" <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2017 9:45 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA speaking even when it’s not loaded when
there’s a problem with shut down
Not if when it was installed in the first place use on the log in
screen was put on, anas this is always loaded even if you do not
decide to load nvda at start up. Its a special kind of cut down
version just for secure screens.
Brian
bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Mary Otten" <motten53@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2017 10:15 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA speaking even when it’s not loaded when
there’s a problem with shut down
OK, but why would it talk if it’s not loaded? If it’s never been
started up, shouldn’t it stay silent?
Mary
Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 11, 2017, at 2:12 PM, Chris Mullins <cjmullins29@gmail.com>
wrote:
Hi
When the Windows log-in and lock screen come into play, a Different
NVDA profile is used to the one related to your user-id and it may
be this that is providing speech during the shut-down process.
Unless you specifically copy a modified profile across for system
usage, it will use the default synth which is E-speak.
Cheers
Chris
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Mary Otten
Sent: 11 November 2017 19:56
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] NVDA speaking even when it’s not loaded when there’s
a problem with shut down
I have this new machine and it has NVDA on it. But in Vda does not
load at start up. We are having some problems with the machine, and
my husband thought he had narrowed it down to stuff screwing up when
you restart rather than shutting down the machine. Anyway, with NVDA
not loaded when the machine is shutting down, occasionally will hang
up and e speak will start talking. That is not the synthesizer I
have selected. But it does talk. And it is happened on a few
occasions. When he took it back to the store to let the tech look at
it, it did that once, and now the tech is blaming the whole thing on
NVDA. I’m sure that’s not correct, but I don’t know what to tell them.
Mary
Sent from my iPhone
.
|
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Re: firefox is now chrome
Mary Otten <motten53@...>
Thanks, Sally. I know about chromevox, and I’m not interested. I will use it with the regular windows screen reader. I was talking about the reader mode, where you get just the article you want to read and not all the intervening junk that shows up.
Mary
Sent from my iPhone
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
On Nov 13, 2017, at 2:00 PM, Sally Kiebdaj <fiddle.pup@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello Mary,
Chrome has an extension called Chromevox which acts as a screen reader. NVDA also works with Chrome, though.
Warm regards,
Sally
On 11/13/2017 4:47 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
So does chrome have a reader at on, rather like what you get with Safari either on a Mac or on the phone? The android version of chrome doesn’t have that, and it’s a huge disadvantage in my opinion. I’m guessing that the desktop version either has it built in or at least has an ad on.
Mary
Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 13, 2017, at 1:03 PM, Shaun Everiss <sm.everiss@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi.
Ok guys decided to cut my losses and switched to chrome.
What an experience change.
Its true I need to do a bit more configging but just about every file just saves now.
And access wize there are accessibility addons.
For me noscript doesn't come but the rest.
First https everywhere, privacy badger and ublock origin exist thats good.
I use download notifier for sounds, and google sound effects tweaked so it doesn't make sounds for everything I do key typing scroling down pages, etc.
However its better than the crappy addon I have on firefox.
Its got accessibility features and its fully configurable, maybe ms should take a leaf out of google's book for their stuff because headings for everything.
The only issues I have is when removing addon extentions I have to hit enter twice as there is a lot of unknown and the same with adding extentions tab once and hit enter.
I also don't care for the top down approach of the google app store.
However I am fully setup and while it could be better, I do believe that firefox as it stands is history with me.
Noscript, well its not really important right now, everything works as needed.
I do feel sad leaving firefox though.
On 14/11/2017 8:51 a.m., Gene wrote:
Why do some people care so much about browser sounds? When a page has finished opening, you'll know it because the screen-reader automatically starts to read it. When a page doesn't load for some reason, a lot of the time there is an error message. When you download a file, you can easily check the estimated time remaining for the download. I understand the desire to hear a sound when a download finishes because that will tell you, without you having to check or without perhaps getting busy with something else and forgetting to check in a timely manner. But how much of the concern with sounds is just habit? Maybe people would be surprised if they didn't use browser sounds for three days as a trial, how quickly almost all of the sounds fade into insignificance. Even the download finished sound may decrease significantly in importance.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Shaun Everiss
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2017 1:28 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] firefox sort of fixed
Hi.
Ok, got an addon called download sound this works for downloads, sadly I
don't get when sites open like navigation sounds, but if anything else
the download sound is the important event sound is a bit loud though.
|
|
|
Re: firefox is now chrome
Hello Mary,
Chrome has an extension called Chromevox which acts as a screen reader. NVDA also works with Chrome, though.
Warm regards,
Sally
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
On 11/13/2017 4:47 PM, Mary Otten wrote: So does chrome have a reader at on, rather like what you get with Safari either on a Mac or on the phone? The android version of chrome doesn’t have that, and it’s a huge disadvantage in my opinion. I’m guessing that the desktop version either has it built in or at least has an ad on.
Mary
Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 13, 2017, at 1:03 PM, Shaun Everiss <sm.everiss@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi.
Ok guys decided to cut my losses and switched to chrome.
What an experience change.
Its true I need to do a bit more configging but just about every file just saves now.
And access wize there are accessibility addons.
For me noscript doesn't come but the rest.
First https everywhere, privacy badger and ublock origin exist thats good.
I use download notifier for sounds, and google sound effects tweaked so it doesn't make sounds for everything I do key typing scroling down pages, etc.
However its better than the crappy addon I have on firefox.
Its got accessibility features and its fully configurable, maybe ms should take a leaf out of google's book for their stuff because headings for everything.
The only issues I have is when removing addon extentions I have to hit enter twice as there is a lot of unknown and the same with adding extentions tab once and hit enter.
I also don't care for the top down approach of the google app store.
However I am fully setup and while it could be better, I do believe that firefox as it stands is history with me.
Noscript, well its not really important right now, everything works as needed.
I do feel sad leaving firefox though.
On 14/11/2017 8:51 a.m., Gene wrote:
Why do some people care so much about browser sounds? When a page has finished opening, you'll know it because the screen-reader automatically starts to read it. When a page doesn't load for some reason, a lot of the time there is an error message. When you download a file, you can easily check the estimated time remaining for the download. I understand the desire to hear a sound when a download finishes because that will tell you, without you having to check or without perhaps getting busy with something else and forgetting to check in a timely manner. But how much of the concern with sounds is just habit? Maybe people would be surprised if they didn't use browser sounds for three days as a trial, how quickly almost all of the sounds fade into insignificance. Even the download finished sound may decrease significantly in importance.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Shaun Everiss
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2017 1:28 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] firefox sort of fixed
Hi.
Ok, got an addon called download sound this works for downloads, sadly I
don't get when sites open like navigation sounds, but if anything else
the download sound is the important event sound is a bit loud though.
|
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Re: firefox is now chrome
For Chrome, The add-on I use is called Just Read. The keyboard shortcut is control+shift+l.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
-----Original Message----- From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Mary Otten Sent: Monday, November 13, 2017 1:48 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] firefox is now chrome So does chrome have a reader at on, rather like what you get with Safari either on a Mac or on the phone? The android version of chrome doesn’t have that, and it’s a huge disadvantage in my opinion. I’m guessing that the desktop version either has it built in or at least has an ad on. Mary Sent from my iPhone On Nov 13, 2017, at 1:03 PM, Shaun Everiss <sm.everiss@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi.
Ok guys decided to cut my losses and switched to chrome.
What an experience change.
Its true I need to do a bit more configging but just about every file just saves now.
And access wize there are accessibility addons.
For me noscript doesn't come but the rest.
First https everywhere, privacy badger and ublock origin exist thats good.
I use download notifier for sounds, and google sound effects tweaked so it doesn't make sounds for everything I do key typing scroling down pages, etc.
However its better than the crappy addon I have on firefox.
Its got accessibility features and its fully configurable, maybe ms should take a leaf out of google's book for their stuff because headings for everything.
The only issues I have is when removing addon extentions I have to hit enter twice as there is a lot of unknown and the same with adding extentions tab once and hit enter.
I also don't care for the top down approach of the google app store.
However I am fully setup and while it could be better, I do believe that firefox as it stands is history with me.
Noscript, well its not really important right now, everything works as needed.
I do feel sad leaving firefox though.
On 14/11/2017 8:51 a.m., Gene wrote:
Why do some people care so much about browser sounds? When a page has finished opening, you'll know it because the screen-reader automatically starts to read it. When a page doesn't load for some reason, a lot of the time there is an error message. When you download a file, you can easily check the estimated time remaining for the download. I understand the desire to hear a sound when a download finishes because that will tell you, without you having to check or without perhaps getting busy with something else and forgetting to check in a timely manner. But how much of the concern with sounds is just habit? Maybe people would be surprised if they didn't use browser sounds for three days as a trial, how quickly almost all of the sounds fade into insignificance. Even the download finished sound may decrease significantly in importance.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Shaun Everiss
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2017 1:28 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] firefox sort of fixed
Hi.
Ok, got an addon called download sound this works for downloads,
sadly I don't get when sites open like navigation sounds, but if
anything else the download sound is the important event sound is a bit loud though.
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Re: Unveiling Braille Me - World's Most Affordable Smart Braille Display
Lino Morales <linomorales001@...>
Sounds like a neat Braille display. I would mind having this one if I had the money. I actually miss typing in Braille. Six dot isn't a deal breaker for me being its only $3.99 YSD.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
On 11/13/2017 3:19 PM, Buddy Brannan wrote: In fact, it does literally say $399. I think that for most use cases, the lack of 8-dot braille isn't going to be a deal breaker.
--
Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
Mobile (preferred): (814) 431-0962
Phone: (814) 860-3194
Email: buddy@brannan.name
"We are all just walking each other home."
On Nov 13, 2017, at 12:14 PM, Cristóbal <crismunoz54@gmail.com> wrote:
It literally says $399.00 in the original email message.
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ann
Byrne
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2017 5:28 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Unveiling Braille Me - World's Most Affordable Smart
Braille Display
How affordable is it???
At 07:17 AM 11/13/2017, you wrote:
Hi Josh,
I had been contacted by Shyam from Innovision a couple months ago with
regards to how adding support for a new Braille display driver works in
the case of NVDA. I had redirected Shyam to Jamie or Reef by providing
their e-mail addresses at that point in time. I am unaware of whether
or not he actually followed up with an NV Access staff member, but what
I can safely say is that supporting NVDA was very much on their minds
while developing this affordable Braille display.
Thanks.
On 11/13/17, Josh Kennedy <joshknnd1982@gmail.com> wrote:
will this display work with NVDA also?
-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: Unveiling Braille Me - World's Most Affordable Smart Braille
Display
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 03:10:09 -0800
From: Innovision <shyam@innovisiontech.co>
To: joshknnd1982@gmail.com
Greetings from Innovision!
This email is in reply to the Pre-order interest survey that you or
a representative from your firm submitted (link -
https://tinyurl.com/BrailleMe-Survey
<https://innovisiontech-dot-yamm-track.appspot.com/Redirect?ukey=1faNFNvnKA_
4Ij1SFgAV4lloCizIP-yQHxS_P4iDZetA-0&key=YAMMID-71407346&link=https%3A%2F%2Ft
inyurl.com%2FBrailleMe-Survey>).
Thank you for showing your interest in Innovision
(www.innovisiontech.co
<https://innovisiontech-dot-yamm-track.appspot.com/Redirect?ukey=1faNF
NvnKA_4Ij1SFgAV4lloCizIP-yQHxS_P4iDZetA-0&key=YAMMID-71407346&link=htt
p%3A%2F%2Fwww.innovisiontech.co%2F>)
and our product, BrailleMe - a Smart Braille Display for the
visually impaired community.
I am excited to inform you that we are launching Braille Me, world's
most affordable smart braille display at USD 399/- on the 4th of
January celebrating the World Braille Day. Let me give you an
overview of Braille Me.
About Braille Me -
Ever Since Louis Braille invented the wonderful script of Braille,
it has been adopted all across the globe empowering millions of
individuals. Today, after 200 years we are on the verge of a
revolution in Braille. Braille Me, is built to bring digital braille
to everyone immaterial of their geographical, economic or lingual
background.
It has a six-dot 20-cell braille display, a Perkins-style keypad,
cursor routing buttons and few navigation keys. It has capabilities
to work as a stand-alone editor and also connect to smartphones and
computers via Bluetooth and USB. It is a balanced device with core
features of a complex notetaker while having the simplicity of a braille
display.
Braille Me has become possible due to two breakthroughs in
Affordability and multi-language. Braille Me is designed with our
patented Braille cell technology which makes the device
cost-effective by an order of magnitude compared to existing
products and supports more than 40 languages spanning all across the
globe.
To know more about Braille Me please check our demonstration video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fz1cUZcf-1A
<https://innovisiontech-dot-yamm-track.appspot.com/Redirect?ukey=1faNF
NvnKA_4Ij1SFgAV4lloCizIP-yQHxS_P4iDZetA-0&key=YAMMID-71407346&link=htt
ps%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DFz1cUZcf-1A>
Also check out our facebook page:
https://www.facebook.com/InnovisionTechnologies/
<https://innovisiontech-dot-yamm-track.appspot.com/Redirect?ukey=1faNF
NvnKA_4Ij1SFgAV4lloCizIP-yQHxS_P4iDZetA-0&key=YAMMID-71407346&link=htt
ps%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2FInnovisionTechnologies%2F>
Reaching out:
We are eager to serve you and look forward to engaging with you.
Currently, we are looking for partners who can help us in the
distribution and training in your state/country. Please let us know
if you are part of or are in touch with any Institute for Visually
impaired, commercial distributors of disability aids or NGOs working
in your area.
Your help in identifying key partners would go a long way in
expediting distribution of Braille Me in your locality.
We hope you would join us in this effort to bring digital braille to
every student and professional in need.
In case you have any queries, please feel free to reach out to our
team at customercare@innovisiontech.co
<mailto:info@innovisiontech.co> We look forward to hearing from you.
--
Warm Regards
Shyam Shah
CEO & Co-founder
INNOVISION
www.innovisiontech.co
<https://innovisiontech-dot-yamm-track.appspot.com/Redirect?ukey=1faNF
NvnKA_4Ij1SFgAV4lloCizIP-yQHxS_P4iDZetA-0&key=YAMMID-71407346&link=htt
p%3A%2F%2Fwww.innovisiontech.co%2F>
Inline image 1
DISCLAIMER: This email (including any attachments) is intended for
the sole use of the intended recipient/s and may contain material
that is CONFIDENTIAL AND PRIVATE COMPANY INFORMATION. Any review or
reliance by others or copying or distribution or forwarding of any
or all of the contents in this message is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. The
opinions expressed are those of the sender and do not necessarily
reflect those of the Company. If you are not the intended recipient,
please contact the sender by email and delete all copies; your
cooperation in this regard is appreciated.
beacon
--
Best Regards
Bhavya Shah
Blogger at Hiking Across Horizons: https://bhavyashah125.wordpress.com/
Contacting Me
E-mail Address: bhavya.shah125@gmail.com Follow me on Twitter
@BhavyaShah125 or www.twitter.com/BhavyaShah125 Mobile Number: +91
7506221750
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Re: firefox sort of fixed
Lino Morales <linomorales001@...>
BTW Sean its browser not brouser. Take care.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
On 11/13/2017 3:07 PM, Shaun Everiss wrote: You are right I don't really need brouser sounds.
However the fact I can't navigate the options of the addons manager is a bit of a problem.
Download sound is fine but I just find the addon's download sound a bit to loud and can't change that.
I have pulled back to 56.02 for now as I just don't have the time to bother with web brousers just now.
Then again 57 seemed to load faster.
Noscript is the big show stopper, I like controling sites I load.
If its in google chrome I may try it and see.
On 14/11/2017 8:51 a.m., Gene wrote:
Why do some people care so much about browser sounds? When a page has finished opening, you'll know it because the screen-reader automatically starts to read it. When a page doesn't load for some reason, a lot of the time there is an error message. When you download a file, you can easily check the estimated time remaining for the download. I understand the desire to hear a sound when a download finishes because that will tell you, without you having to check or without perhaps getting busy with something else and forgetting to check in a timely manner. But how much of the concern with sounds is just habit? Maybe people would be surprised if they didn't use browser sounds for three days as a trial, how quickly almost all of the sounds fade into insignificance. Even the download finished sound may decrease significantly in importance.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Shaun Everiss
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2017 1:28 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] firefox sort of fixed
Hi.
Ok, got an addon called download sound this works for downloads, sadly I
don't get when sites open like navigation sounds, but if anything else
the download sound is the important event sound is a bit loud though.
|
|
|
Re: firefox sort of fixed
Lino Morales <linomorales001@...>
I agree with Gene. Heck I've not used any sound nav add-ons for
oh I'd say almost a year and its fine and yep I use FF and Edge
with NVDA. The only sounds I care about are the Action Center
notification and mail in Thunderbird.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
On 11/13/2017 2:51 PM, Gene wrote:
Why do some people care so much
about browser sounds? When a page has finished opening,
you'll know it because the screen-reader automatically starts
to read it. When a page doesn't load for some reason, a lot
of the time there is an error message. When you download a
file, you can easily check the estimated time remaining for
the download. I understand the desire to hear a sound when a
download finishes because that will tell you, without you
having to check or without perhaps getting busy with something
else and forgetting to check in a timely manner. But how much
of the concern with sounds is just habit? Maybe people would
be surprised if they didn't use browser sounds for three days
as a trial, how quickly almost all of the sounds fade into
insignificance. Even the download finished sound may decrease
significantly in importance.
Gene
----- Original
Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2017 1:28 PM
Subject: [nvda] firefox sort of fixed
Hi.
Ok, got an addon called download sound this works for downloads,
sadly I
don't get when sites open like navigation sounds, but if anything
else
the download sound is the important event sound is a bit loud
though.
|
|
|
Re: firefox is now chrome
Mary Otten <motten53@...>
So does chrome have a reader at on, rather like what you get with Safari either on a Mac or on the phone? The android version of chrome doesn’t have that, and it’s a huge disadvantage in my opinion. I’m guessing that the desktop version either has it built in or at least has an ad on.
Mary
Sent from my iPhone
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
On Nov 13, 2017, at 1:03 PM, Shaun Everiss <sm.everiss@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi.
Ok guys decided to cut my losses and switched to chrome.
What an experience change.
Its true I need to do a bit more configging but just about every file just saves now.
And access wize there are accessibility addons.
For me noscript doesn't come but the rest.
First https everywhere, privacy badger and ublock origin exist thats good.
I use download notifier for sounds, and google sound effects tweaked so it doesn't make sounds for everything I do key typing scroling down pages, etc.
However its better than the crappy addon I have on firefox.
Its got accessibility features and its fully configurable, maybe ms should take a leaf out of google's book for their stuff because headings for everything.
The only issues I have is when removing addon extentions I have to hit enter twice as there is a lot of unknown and the same with adding extentions tab once and hit enter.
I also don't care for the top down approach of the google app store.
However I am fully setup and while it could be better, I do believe that firefox as it stands is history with me.
Noscript, well its not really important right now, everything works as needed.
I do feel sad leaving firefox though.
On 14/11/2017 8:51 a.m., Gene wrote:
Why do some people care so much about browser sounds? When a page has finished opening, you'll know it because the screen-reader automatically starts to read it. When a page doesn't load for some reason, a lot of the time there is an error message. When you download a file, you can easily check the estimated time remaining for the download. I understand the desire to hear a sound when a download finishes because that will tell you, without you having to check or without perhaps getting busy with something else and forgetting to check in a timely manner. But how much of the concern with sounds is just habit? Maybe people would be surprised if they didn't use browser sounds for three days as a trial, how quickly almost all of the sounds fade into insignificance. Even the download finished sound may decrease significantly in importance.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Shaun Everiss
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2017 1:28 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] firefox sort of fixed
Hi.
Ok, got an addon called download sound this works for downloads, sadly I
don't get when sites open like navigation sounds, but if anything else
the download sound is the important event sound is a bit loud though.
|
|
|
Re: braille me affordable braille display
Here, here to the 40-cell display. Twenty is
barely enough to do serious reading. That's what I would use
it for. Mobile is the future, this I know. However, the more
Braille cells on a display, the better. I'm thinking 32 or 40
would be nice.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
On 11/13/2017 4:27 PM, Cristóbal wrote:
If only someone would come out with a 40 cell option. That or the makers of
these new entries would also scale up to a 40 cell display...
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Buddy
Brannan
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2017 12:18 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] braille me affordable braille display
Hi,
Y'all will recall that BrailleMe came to the NVDA community for assistance
in putting together a display driver last year.
Earlier this year, late spring or perhaps very early summer, I got to see an
early prototype of BraillMe, and it showed a lot of promise. There were afew
rough edges, which I hope have been addressed in the final production
version.
At $50 less than Orbit Reader 20, there are a couple things I'll observe.
First, the early prototype was a bit noisy, especially as the cursor
blinked. Also, sometimes a cell wouldn't populate correctly if you had your
finger on it. I hope these shortcomings got addressed. Also, this says it's
a six-dot cell, not eight. This might be an issue for some, although I must
say I never used those extra dots myself. On the plus side, display refresh
is instantaneous, and there are cursor routing buttons for each cell, a
feature the Orbit lacks. So if they really do release on 4th January, we
could well have a winner here.
--
Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
Mobile (preferred): (814) 431-0962
Phone: (814) 860-3194
Email: buddy@...
"We are all just walking each other home."
On Nov 13, 2017, at 8:50 AM, Josh Kennedy <joshknnd1982@...> wrote:
hello
braille me will cost $399 united states dollars.
--
sent with mozilla thunderbird
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Lino Morales <linomorales001@...>
Well if its meant for business I'm not interested. I wish Viber
was accessible with NVDA.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
On 11/13/2017 4:30 PM, Governor staten
wrote:
It is more for business use. However, they
give you a free account that allows you to do some things.
So, you could use it between friends and family.
On 11/13/2017 4:26 PM, Lino Morales
wrote:
What's the URL for Zoom? I've been wanting off the Skype
train for a while. If anyone knows email me at:
lino.jr@...
Thanks.
On 11/12/2017 10:16 PM, Derek Lane
wrote:
I've mentioned this on this list before.
I've also spoken to zoom, and they told me they're talking
to anything that will listen though msaa.
I believe this is so, because not only does zoom
notifications read with JAWS, but they are also read in
narrator under windows 10. The rest of the client works
reasonably well with it as well.
So it sounds like a tiny piece of something is missing.
If it gets fixed, maybe this would inadvertently improve
access to other apps that we may not be aware of.
On 11/12/2017 10:02 PM, Quentin
Christensen wrote:
Hi,
In general, I would say if something doesn't work in
Next, it is often worth double checking the latest
stable build to make sure it's not a regression. In
terms of Zoom, I don't think we've done any work on this
recently so I suspect it will be the same between
versions.
If you are able to do that Governor Staten, that will
ensure you are kept up to date with work done on this
issue.
Kind regards
Quentin.
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